Couple of Schism questions

[gogogome]

You can’t manifest a power while concentrating on another one.
1. So if your schism is concentrating on a power, can you manifest a power or not?
"two minds" "autonomy" independent" "two characters in one body" all suggest you can manifest a 2nd power while schism is concentrating because schism "doesn't distract your primary mind", but it's unclear.
Solicit Psicrystal requires you to manifest it while maintaining concentration on another power, which means the above quote is not absolute, and you can possibly manifest swift action or immediate action powers without breaking concentration.

2. Can schism maintain concentration on a power manifested by your main mind? Or does it have to manifest Co-Opt concentration to take over it first?

3. Can Schism use overchannel or wild surge to manifest powers it can't normally manifest? So if you have ML9, your Schism is ML3. Can it invoke a +2 overchannel to manifest a level 3 power which costs 5 PP?

4. Can a Schism activate a Soul Crystal if you're holding/possessing the Soul Crystal? So is activating a soul crystal a purely mental action?

5. Can a creature with mind blank on it or immunity to mind-affecting effects utilize schism?

6. If a Psion gets the Wild Surge ability from Anarchic Initiate, does Psychic Enervation result in 0 power point loss as the Psion has no Wilder Levels?
It makes sense as every description of psychic enervation even in Enervation Endurance says you lose pp equal to your wilder level not character level, so the PrC obtained wild surge is a superior form of wild surge that does not result in pp loss or an increase in pp loss of an existing wild surge ability.

[Segev]

1. So if your schism is concentrating on a power, can you manifest a power or not?
"two minds" "autonomy" independent" "two characters in one body" all suggest you can manifest a 2nd power while schism is concentrating because schism "doesn't distract your primary mind", but it's unclear.The two minds have separate action sets. One concentrating on a power doesn't impact the other's ability to do anything (save where said power impacts it, of course).


Solicit Psicrystal requires you to manifest it while maintaining concentration on another power, which means the above quote is not absolute, and you can possibly manifest swift action or immediate action powers without breaking concentration.Specific beats general. Solicit Psicrystal allows you to do this, providing an exception to the normal rules. Alternatively, your manifestation would end your concentration, but having manifested the power allows your psicrystal to take over concentration of it, thus preventing it from ending.


2. Can schism maintain concentration on a power manifested by your main mind? Or does it have to manifest Co-Opt concentration to take over it first?The latter. The two minds are distinct entities for the duration, and maintain their own concentrations. But good call on Co-Opt Concentration as an option to let it do so. Would be a viable way to get a full-ML concentration power held while freeing up your higher-ML mind to manifest other things.


3. Can Schism use overchannel or wild surge to manifest powers it can't normally manifest? So if you have ML9, your Schism is ML3. Can it invoke a +2 overchannel to manifest a level 3 power which costs 5 PP?Yes, because the "debuff" on the second mind is only "as if your manifester level were six lower than it is." As that doesn't actually change powers known, anything which lets it raise its ML will recoup some or all (or more, if you find a way to get +7 or more ML!) of its ability to manifest like your main mind does.

Interestingly, if you, for some reason, took Practiced Manifester and had a native ML that was equal to your HD, Practiced Manifester would normally do nothing for you. But if you then manifested Schism, it would increase the Schism mind's ML by 4, meaning it only loses 2 effective ML rather than the usual six! Almost certainly not worth it, but nonetheless interesting


4. Can a Schism activate a Soul Crystal if you're holding/possessing the Soul Crystal? So is activating a soul crystal a purely mental action?I believe so; generally, all psionic items are purely mental actions, unless specifically stated. (Tattoos require you to touch them, which is a particular exception.)


5. Can a creature with mind blank on it or immunity to mind-affecting effects utilize schism?Yes, if they can and do voluntarily lower the immunity. Unclear whether mind blank lets you do so, but the general rule is that creatures with immunities CAN (which leads to some mechanical dysfunctions compared to what's supposed to be the case, such as golems being ordered to voluntarily lower their immunity to certain spells so their masters can buff them, when that's supposed to be a weakness of golems). It does take a standard action to lower the immunity, and it goes back up as a free action on their next turn.


6. If a Psion gets the Wild Surge ability from Anarchic Initiate, does Psychic Enervation result in 0 power point loss as the Psion has no Wilder Levels?This one, I can't answer, as I'm AFB. I'd need to check precise wording. Does it anywhere state that Anarchic Initiate levels count as Wilder levels?

[Rijan_Sai]

6. If a Psion gets the Wild Surge ability from Anarchic Initiate, does Psychic Enervation result in 0 power point loss as the Psion has no Wilder Levels?
It makes sense as every description of psychic enervation even in Enervation Endurance says you lose pp equal to your wilder level not character level, so the PrC obtained wild surge is a superior form of wild surge that does not result in pp loss or an increase in pp loss of an existing wild surge ability.

Just looked it up; the last line of the Wild Surge class feature description says:

This ability functions as the wilder class feature (EPH 31).
followed by

[REDACTED], you gain the psychic enervation class feature (EPH 31) if you do not already have it.
Which means that a psion would have an effective... hmm... just reread it, and it doesn't actually say what the effective wilder level would be if you don't have any.

While not directly applying to the wild surge, the Powers Known class feature has this (pretty standard) line:

If you had more than one manifesting class before becoming an anarchic initiate, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining power points per day, powers known, and manifester level.


Summery/Conclusion:
Best guess, you would apply the Psychic Enervation to whatever class you are boosting you ML with Wild Surge.

[gogogome]

The latter. The two minds are distinct entities for the duration, and maintain their own concentrations. But good call on Co-Opt Concentration as an option to let it do so. Would be a viable way to get a full-ML concentration power held while freeing up your higher-ML mind to manifest other things.

Why can't the 2nd mind take over? The 2nd mind is you after all and not a separate creature. Maintaining concentration is a purely mental standard action so why can't a psion have the schism use its standard action? I mean, the schism can direct powers manifested by you right? So how is concentration maintenance any different?


Yes, because the "debuff" on the second mind is only "as if your manifester level were six lower than it is." As that doesn't actually change powers known, anything which lets it raise its ML will recoup some or all (or more, if you find a way to get +7 or more ML!) of its ability to manifest like your main mind does.

It may not change power's known, but you can't spend more power points than your ML on a power, so if your ML is less than 11, you can't manifest a 6th level power. So my question is, can you initiate overchannel and then choose which power you want to manifest? Or do you choose a power to manifest first and then activate overchannel?


I believe so; generally, all psionic items are purely mental actions, unless specifically stated. (Tattoos require you to touch them, which is a particular exception.)

At least going by the FAQ, casting a spell with a material component is not a purely mental action. And power stones require you to hold the stone in order to manifest it. So the question is, does a Psion have to hold a soul crystal to activate it or can it just be in his backpack?


Yes, if they can and do voluntarily lower the immunity. Unclear whether mind blank lets you do so, but the general rule is that creatures with immunities CAN (which leads to some mechanical dysfunctions compared to what's supposed to be the case, such as golems being ordered to voluntarily lower their immunity to certain spells so their masters can buff them, when that's supposed to be a weakness of golems). It does take a standard action to lower the immunity, and it goes back up as a free action on their next turn.

If going by the FAQ you can't lower spell immunity of golems.

Mind Blank says it protects you from mind-affecting effects, so my thinking was since it protects you rather than render you immune to mind-affecting effects, harmless and beneficial mind-affecting spells can affect you.

There's an Elder Evil that knows Schism and all Elder Evils are immune to mind-affecting is also worth considering.


This one, I can't answer, as I'm AFB. I'd need to check precise wording. Does it anywhere state that Anarchic Initiate levels count as Wilder levels?

No it does not.


Best guess, you would apply the Psychic Enervation to whatever class you are boosting you ML with Wild Surge.

That line does not include class features though. Psychic Enervation is independent of power points per day, powers known, and manifester level. There is no mention of manifester level in Psychic Enervation's description.

[magicalmagicman]

I think gogogome raised some good points here. If I have two hands and need to hold down a button, why can't I just switch hands? I think if a psion manifests ethereal agent both the primary mind and schism should be able to concentrate on it and direct it regardless of which mind manifested it. The schism is not a second creature. All spell and power effects that are controllable by the primary mind is also controllable by the secondary mind because both are the same creature.

[Segev]

Why can't the 2nd mind take over? The 2nd mind is you after all and not a separate creature. Maintaining concentration is a purely mental standard action so why can't a psion have the schism use its standard action? I mean, the schism can direct powers manifested by you right? So how is concentration maintenance any different?If you manifest Fission and split into two, both of them are you, right? Why can't one take over concentration of the other's power?

The answer is here:
Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body. It's a separate character. Both are under the same player's control, as both are the same person, but one is unable to control the body at all. It can take purely mental actions that the primary character could take, though it manifests at 6 ML lower than normal. I don't actually see anywhere that it says it could "direct" powers that your other mind manifested, though anything that recognized it as you would obey it as it would you (so if you used it to issue telepathic commands to an Astral Construct, for example, that probably would work, but might be iffy).

If you manifest Body Control on somebody, though, nothing suggests that it could take the mental action to issue the controlling command; it's not the one that manifested it.


It may not change power's known, but you can't spend more power points than your ML on a power, so if your ML is less than 11, you can't manifest a 6th level power. So my question is, can you initiate overchannel and then choose which power you want to manifest? Or do you choose a power to manifest first and then activate overchannel?You can choose to manifest the power you can't expend enough PP to manifest, then overchannel to enable yourself to expend enough PP to manifest it. Nothing prevents you from trying to manifest a power you can't spend the PP to fuel; you'd just fail, normally. But if, as part of manifesting, you do something else that enables you to fuel it, it works just fine.

In strict rule terms, there's no "order of operations," here. You're choosing to overchannel and manifest a power, and when overchanneling, you have the ML to expend enough PP to manifest said power.


At least going by the FAQ, casting a spell with a material component is not a purely mental action. And power stones require you to hold the stone in order to manifest it. So the question is, does a Psion have to hold a soul crystal to activate it or can it just be in his backpack?Your body must be holding it to manifest from it, but if your body is holding it already, the second mind can take the purely mental action to manifest from it, because all criteria are met. It can't make your body pull it out, so if you didn't pull it out with your primary mind, it can't do that for you and you're not holding it so it can't manifest from it.


If going by the FAQ you can't lower spell immunity of golems.Nice! Glad to know that.


Mind Blank says it protects you from mind-affecting effects, so my thinking was since it protects you rather than render you immune to mind-affecting effects, harmless and beneficial mind-affecting spells can affect you.

There's an Elder Evil that knows Schism and all Elder Evils are immune to mind-affecting is also worth considering.This seems a fair ruling. I'd have to dig into the RAW far more than I care to to even try to contradict it, and it seems like it holds up to what I perceive as RAI, with no weird inconsistencies or strange logical loopholes.


No it does not.Huh. So an Anarchic Initiate coming in from Wilder doesn't suffer psychic enervation for anything other than his Wilder levels, and stops advancing it for Anarchic Initiate? Interesting.

In that case, no, you'd not suffer PP loss since your Wilder level is 0.


I think gogogome raised some good points here. If I have two hands and need to hold down a button, why can't I just switch hands? I think if a psion manifests ethereal agent both the primary mind and schism should be able to concentrate on it and direct it regardless of which mind manifested it. The schism is not a second creature. All spell and power effects that are controllable by the primary mind is also controllable by the secondary mind because both are the same creature.The two hands analogy isn't a very good one, here. The second mind is a separate character. This is more akin to you asking your friend to take over digesting the meal you just ate so that you can have a better chance of winning the pie-eating contest that's starting in 3 minutes.

The second mind didn't manifest the power. It has no more connection to that power than does a separate Psion with whom you're Mindlinked. It has to use Coopt Concentration to steal it from your primary mind. Which it can do easily, since you WANT it to and you're willingly failing the save to let it have it, but it still costs the action and the PP.

[icefractal]

Also, if it did count as "you", then "you" would be concentrating on a power and unable to manifest any others. So it's a good thing that it's separate.

I'd say that Practiced Manifester is very worth it if you use Schism often, assuming the GM doesn't veto it.

[Rijan_Sai]

That line does not include class features though. Psychic Enervation is independent of power points per day, powers known, and manifester level. There is no mention of manifester level in Psychic Enervation's description.

Right. Sorry, I probably could have formatted that a little better... that part you quoted was basically my summery/conclusion of all the previous thoughts, not directly connected to the specific previous quote. Basically, without any other wording on the subject, (and without knowing the author's intent,) it's the best I can come up with for how it should work (and how I would rule if it came up in a game I was DM'ing.) (I'll edit the first post to make that a little clearer...)

That quote (the "Powers Known" one) was more of an example of other cases where similar occurrences apply; (the phrase "pretty standard" is in reference to the 98.9% of all other caster/manifester PrCs that use it.)

Edit:
Actually, the "Powers Known" part is connected: Anarchic Initiate increases your ML every level; Wild Surge is a separate, specialized case of ML boosting, above and beyond your class + PrC ML. It makes sense (to me, at least) that the class getting the boost would be the one to risk the enervation.

[Pippin]

Practiced Manifester is good but I believe it doesn't entirely make up for what you lose. Schism says your second mind loses 6 (class) levels, and Practiced Manifester says its manifester level increases by 4. So if you are a 17th-level Telepath, your second mind has access to 6th-level powers or below, but it manifests them as a 15th-level Telepath.

[gogogome]

Ok so consensus has been reached for
1. yes
2. no
6. yes

3. is iffy, even with segev's explanation, but it seems there really is no order of operations. If overchannel and power manifestation occur simultaneously I don't see why you couldn't choose to manifest higher level powers with the help of overchannel.

4. XPH and the FAQ says using material components is not a purely mental action, and since there is no difference between holding a material component pouch, a focus, and a soul crystal, I'm leaning towards no, schisms cannot activate soul crystals.

5. is also iffy, but i think there's enough leeway in both RAW and RAI that mind blank doesn't protect you from beneficial effects, at least the ones that originate from you.

[gogogome]

New question:

If using Complete Psionic's 1 astral construct rule, does a Schism's Astral Construct count towards this limit? After all, it's a separate entity right? The text in Personality Parasite convinced me that schism is a separate entity.

[Segev]

Practiced Manifester is good but I believe it doesn't entirely make up for what you lose. Schism says your second mind loses 6 (class) levels, and Practiced Manifester says its manifester level increases by 4. So if you are a 17th-level Telepath, your second mind has access to 6th-level powers or below, but it manifests them as a 15th-level Telepath.Schism doesn’t say anything about losing class levels, only manifested level. If you’re 17th level, your schism knows your 9th level power(s); it just can only expend a maximum of 11 power points on any given manifestation due to its ML of 11. Anything which let you increase that limit would increase the level of power it could manifest commensurately.


New question:

If using Complete Psionic's 1 astral construct rule, does a Schism's Astral Construct count towards this limit? After all, it's a separate entity right? The text in Personality Parasite convinced me that schism is a separate entity.
Absolutely.

Edit: Finally looked up Anarchic Initiate directly. The Wild Surge and Psychic Ennervation features it gives you function exactly as the Wilder features. So if you have no levels of Wilder, you lose no power points even when you Ennervate. You are still dazed for a round, however.