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View Full Version : The Greatest of ALL SKILLMONKIES!!!



Wraithy
2007-10-02, 12:33 PM
After a slightly annoying conversation with a few members of my gaming group, I have realised that I'm obsessed with playing skill monkies, every character I've ever enjoyed playing has been one.

Not wanting to quit while I'm ahead (both figuratively and when I'm putting use to hide and move silently), I throw myself before the forums and ask:

What is The Greatest of ALL SKILLMONKIES?

SoD
2007-10-02, 12:36 PM
A factotum (all skills are in-class) with jack of all trades (can use any skill as if he had half a rank in it).

Indon
2007-10-02, 12:36 PM
Factotum (Dungeonscape) gets every skill as a class skill.

Edit: Ninja'ed!

KIDS
2007-10-02, 12:42 PM
Rogue 10/Exemplar 10 is also a solid choice, and the 3.5 guide to breaking and entering at Wizards character optimization boards is also a very good read for defining what you need and you don't need for successful skillmonkeying. Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-385357.html).

sombrastewart
2007-10-02, 02:24 PM
I have an epic rogue that is pretty much all skillmonkey. He's a rogue/thief acrobat/exemplar, but not a social rogue. The only skill he doesn't have much in is Open Lock, and that's thanks to his Ring of Knock. I highly endorse both of the aforementioned PrCs for skillmonkeys.

Frosty
2007-10-02, 02:52 PM
Beguiler is pretty good too. Int-based spellcasting = mucho skill points.

Person_Man
2007-10-02, 03:15 PM
Nanobots (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=458721).

Assuming you don't want to break your DMs game:

Factotum 3/Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 12/Exemplar 5

Factotum has all skills in-class, and can gain his Int bonus to Str and Dex checks.

Marshal gains Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for free. He gains various auras which allow him to add his Cha bonus to Skills from a particular stat (and the checks of his friends as well). 12 levels is enough to gain your Cha bonus to anything (though no more then one type per round). Exemplar allows you to take 10 on a boatload of Skills, and gives you +4 to a particular Skill.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-02, 03:18 PM
A variant Changeling Rogue gets 10 skill points a level so taking it at first level with a nice intelligence bonus would rack up a lot of skill points. It really works well if the +1 LA OE Hengeyokai are allowed to qualify as shapechangers (The +1LA was changed to +0LA in a Dragon issue update).

It is a nice foundation for a build and at first level in low level leveling up campaign with the Jack of Trades feat it is tough to beat and gives your PC a lot of options with other classes, PRCs and feats to taste. Factotum plus 3 levels of Dungeon Delver for the 3 + Int mod mastered skills.

Lot of useful Factotum builds and suggestions at Wizard's:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436

BardicDuelist
2007-10-02, 03:33 PM
Because a Factotum is a class which is really SAD for Int, it is my experience that they usually end up with more skills than rogues. They can also take any skill and get Int. to a lot of skills for free. They even have trapfinding and some spellcasting (which can easily boost skills since they can choose any spell on the Sor/Wiz list). Because of that, I think they are probably the best skill monkey.

I love skill monkeys as well. Bards, Factotums, Rogues, and Beguilers for the win.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-03, 08:48 AM
Ironically, the wizard.

vrellum
2007-10-03, 10:39 AM
Bard with bardic knack (PHBII) is pretty good.

Dr. Weasel
2007-10-03, 11:14 AM
Factotum, hands down.

Other classes may try to compete with it or succeed in enhancing it, but that class is the best.

TK-Squared
2007-10-03, 11:23 AM
The omnificer for a small period of time.

Rex Blunder
2007-10-03, 11:24 AM
Because a Factotum is a class which is really SAD for Int, it is my experience that they usually end up with more skills than rogues. They can also take any skill and get Int. to a lot of skills for free.

Not to mention that once a day per skill, they can add their factotum level to any skill check, if they have one rank in that skill check.

A factotum really shines when unusual skill situations come up. A 10th-level rogue skill monkey might not have invested in Use Rope, for instance: he'll still have a pretty good check, say +6 from high dexterity.

Now compare a 10th-level factotum. She'll have invested one rank in each skill, so she'll have 1 rank in Use Rope, +6 for intelligence bonus, say +2 for dexterity, and the ability to boost the check by +10, for a total of +19. Only once a day, sure, but who needs to make Use Rope checks twice in one day?

Wraithy
2007-10-03, 12:27 PM
I'd never heard of the factotum before this thread, when it turned out my friend had the book it was from I asked him about it. it sounds *positive expletive*. From my friend's description it's casting is similar to psionics (in the way that it uses points), sadly my friend isn't going to lend dungeonscape out to me for a while, but it really does look *shocking positive expletive*. I can't wait to see it.

slexlollar89
2007-10-03, 01:26 PM
Is there a place to get Cityscape (more specifically the factotum) for fr- uh... I mean buy it...but without money...? :smallbiggrin: :smallconfused:

Rex Blunder
2007-10-03, 01:33 PM
Dungeonscape, and also, really? Ask for Dungeonscape, by Rich Burlew, for free, on giantitp.com?

hippie_dwarf
2007-10-03, 01:37 PM
Always with the skill monkeys :smallsigh:

Rex Blunder
2007-10-03, 01:51 PM
Factotum's got almost as many threads on page 1 as the monk now - although the monk wins if you include "The Greatest of all skillMONKies!!!"

Benejeseret
2007-10-03, 04:52 PM
I am trying out a rogue/spymaster/exemplar type currently with 18 int. Many, many, skill points and more importantly exemplar lvl2 lets you transfer some of this to your party. Sneaking into places often requires multiple rolls hide/spot, m.silently/listen, and if caught bluffs etc. But with a really good disguise (and a forged document) you can get into most places with a smile and a nod. Exemplar disguise to the party and you can all walk right into places with the rogue doing the bluffing and offering forged docs.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-03, 05:03 PM
A factotum (all skills are in-class) with jack of all trades (can use any skill as if he had half a rank in it).
No. Not Jack of All Trades. It's a trap. That feat is actually entirely useless in every way. Don't touch it. Even with a ten foot pole. It doesn't make you a better skill monkey.

Jasdoif
2007-10-03, 05:04 PM
No. Not Jack of All Trades. That feat is actually entirely useless in every way. Don't touch it. Even with a ten foot pole. It doesn't make you a better skill monkey.Skill rat, maybe?

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-03, 05:07 PM
Is there a place to get Cityscape (more specifically the factotum) for fr- uh... I mean buy it...but without money...? :smallbiggrin: :smallconfused:

First off, it's Dungeonscape. Second off, yes, there are many such places, but it's all totally illegal and I'm sure no one wants to be an accomplice to your heinous misdeeds. Third off, I'm sure asking that violates our code of conduct and will get the moderators to hit you with something hard and blunt. Fourth off, you're talking about *stealing from Rich Burlew* on *his own site.* That... is so... just... wow. Not a master criminal there.


Ironically, the wizard.

Even better, try a Rogue1/Wizard5/Unseen Seer10/Arcane Trickster4 with Able Learner. You can also replace that first Rogue level with Factotum and the build still works. Also, your familiar will share your amazing skill ranks (he can even use UMD if you get a talking one like a Raven!), so you actually have *two* skill monkies for the price of one. Eat your heart out, Factotum. You can't beat the Big Four!

namo
2007-10-04, 02:17 AM
Even better, try a Rogue1/Wizard5/Unseen Seer10/Arcane Trickster4 with Able Learner. You can also replace that first Rogue level with Factotum and the build still works. Also, your familiar will share your amazing skill ranks (he can even use UMD if you get a talking one like a Raven!), so you actually have *two* skill monkies for the price of one. Eat your heart out, Factotum. You can't beat the Big Four!

Even better : Factotum 5/Chameleon 10/Factotum 5 - what can't (s)he do ?

Two standard actions per round, casts arcane and divine spells from any list (yes, that includes Glibness), access to Use Psionic Device too...

Starsinger
2007-10-04, 02:28 AM
Akashic from Arcana Unearthed is pretty good too. 8+ Int (IIRC) skill points, all skills class skills, and a host of neat abilities that delve further into being a skill monkey, and a general monkey too..

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-04, 03:56 AM
This will work:

Rogue-1, Factotum - 3, Marshal -1 (Motivate Intelligence and Skill Focus Diplomacy) (Marshal - 2 if your DM will let you learn a Minor Aura in a Major Aura slot to Motivate another ability score (Lose the initial Rogue level)), Chameleon - 1, 2 or 3 to personal taste (Some Minor Spellcasting, Open Bonus Feat, Mimic Class Feature), Factotum -5 for Cunning Surge, Remaining Chameleon Levels.

kpenguin
2007-10-04, 04:09 AM
An awakened monkey, of course.

TO_Incognito
2007-10-04, 04:40 AM
No. Not Jack of All Trades. It's a trap. That feat is actually entirely useless in every way. Don't touch it. Even with a ten foot pole. It doesn't make you a better skill monkey.

I've heard of people combining it with Bardic Knack from PHBII to genuinely become proficient in every skill in the game.

Come to think of it, I think that's illegal by the wording of Bardic Knack...

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-10-04, 10:56 AM
Ironically, the wizard.

I think you broke my brain. The friendly-stated :) relevant question is "how is the wizard a better skillmonkey than the Factotum?" INT based spellcasting only does so much. Even with Education or a Human Wizzie with Jack of all Trades would still not get as many skills as a Factotum...

Indon
2007-10-04, 11:12 AM
No. Not Jack of All Trades. It's a trap. That feat is actually entirely useless in every way. Don't touch it. Even with a ten foot pole. It doesn't make you a better skill monkey.

Why? If you have a good Int but few class skills, it doubles the amount of skills you can have half-ranks in.

Edit: And if you have good int and one level of a skillmonkey class, then you can keep your applicable skills maxed with skill points from different classes.

Aquillion
2007-10-04, 09:25 PM
Factotum, easily. In addition to the reasons listed above, a Factotum gets normally class-unique skills that most other classes can't learn... and they either have or at very high levels can replicate extremely large number of 'support' abilities to use those skills effectively. And even in maxxed skills vs the rogue, the Factotum's skill bonuses are usually going to let them pull ahead in a pinch.

(With one exception -- can a Factotum use Disable Device to disarm magic traps? I think no. I don't know if that counts as a 1st-level Rogue class feature they can emulate with their 19th level ability, either.)

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-04, 09:31 PM
Why? If you have a good Int but few class skills, it doubles the amount of skills you can have half-ranks in.

Edit: And if you have good int and one level of a skillmonkey class, then you can keep your applicable skills maxed with skill points from different classes.

Because the feat you actually want is Able Learner. What Jack of All Trades actually does is let you spend a feat in order to get a chance to fail at trained only skills (Look at me, I got 0 ranks in UMD, but I can use it now! Whoohoo! But wait, I can't actually succeed on using anything with it... nor can I make any of those knowledge checks with those trained only knowledge skills... crud)


I think you broke my brain. The friendly-stated :) relevant question is "how is the wizard a better skillmonkey than the Factotum?" INT based spellcasting only does so much. Even with Education or a Human Wizzie with Jack of all Trades would still not get as many skills as a Factotum...

Because spells actually give you more utility than skills. And more bonuses to skills than skill ranks do. Seriously, just look at Divine Insight, a second level cleric spell. Boom, you just got +15 to a skill. Or how about Wieldskill? That's only first level.

Here's the logical problem you're running into: You're thinking of skill points, rather than what skills actually do: Utility. Same problem people have when they think of healing rather than the actual game issue of damage mitigation (which is accomplished not only by healing, but by many other effects as well). Why have 20 ranks in Climb when you can cast Levitate? 20 ranks in Move Silently when you have Silence? 20 ranks in Hide when you have Improved Invisibility? I mean, we're not even talking high level spells.

And the Wizard owns the heck out of the utility role. Also, the build I just gave will be getting 8+int x 4 sp at first level, 2+int sp at 2nd-6th, 6+int sp at 7th-16th, and 4+int sp at 17th-20th. And he'll be getting 9th level spells (and all the massive utility that comes with them), and maxing out his int (so add four or more to all those numbers). And he'll have Able Learner, and thus all the class skills he could want. And he'll have a second skill monkey in the form of his familiar. Oh, and he'll end up with higher sneak attack than a level 20 Rogue when he uses Hunter's Eye or similar buffs.

Aquillion
2007-10-05, 01:51 AM
And the Wizard owns the heck out of the utility role. Also, the build I just gave will be getting 8+int x 4 sp at first level, 2+int sp at 2nd-6th, 6+int sp at 7th-16th, and 4+int sp at 17th-20th. And he'll be getting 9th level spells (and all the massive utility that comes with them), and maxing out his int (so add four or more to all those numbers). And he'll have Able Learner, and thus all the class skills he could want. And he'll have a second skill monkey in the form of his familiar. Oh, and he'll end up with higher sneak attack than a level 20 Rogue when he uses Hunter's Eye or similar buffs.Remind me again what wizard spells (barring 'all-powerful' pun-pun type cheese and overly-broad interpretations of divinations that let them do anything) can substitute effectively for sense motive, spot, and listen checks in situations where you have no reason to suspect you're in danger?

Remember that whatever answer you give, it must be something that can be kept up whenever awake, 24/7, without exception, just like the skills in question... and it cannot consume a significant portion of a wizard's resources or require a specific build or feat just to manage it. Level 9 spells shouldn't be required (you only have those for 3 levels in a 20-level game!), but even with them, note that Foresight is not a perfect solution even if you waste the resources to keep it up 24/7--foresight warns you immediately before the danger hits, just in time to save you from being flat-footed. It can keep you from losing your dex bonus to AC against the bandits, say, but isn't necessarily going to keep you from walking or being led into the ambush in the first place.

No saying "I cast Divinations constantly and ask perfectly-worded questions to always know whenever I'm in danger!" Those spells do not work that way; they either give limited yes-or-no answers with a chance of failure, or give only cryptic, tangentially-related results, or both.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-05, 03:46 AM
For a spellcasting skillmonkey:

Factotum - 1,Marshal -1 (With a positive charisma for motivating Intelligence) Beguiler -2 plus a mix of 165 more Beguiler/Fullcasting PRCs. levels.

Factotum -1, Beguiler -4, Chameleon -1 (A little minor spellcasting) plus a mix of 14 more Beguiler/Full casting PRCs.

Indon
2007-10-05, 09:19 AM
Because the feat you actually want is Able Learner. What Jack of All Trades actually does is let you spend a feat in order to get a chance to fail at trained only skills (Look at me, I got 0 ranks in UMD, but I can use it now! Whoohoo! But wait, I can't actually succeed on using anything with it... nor can I make any of those knowledge checks with those trained only knowledge skills... crud)


Hah, I'd confused the two feats in my head when I made that post, I see.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-10-05, 12:36 PM
Cool; thanks for the assistance. I was going with straight skill ranks; in a world that we run that is low magic (they have a Duskblade-esque spellcasting) some of the spells that are mentioned may not work. I am thinking of more mundane skills; getting out of a battle with Diplomacy (and still getting the XPs for it); deciphering script in a puzzle, that sort of thing. I like the idea of a skillful, low magic setting. It kinda almost eliminates the need for something as (vile spewing of expletivly badness) that is the batman wizard.