Trip Build Help? (No longer Antagonize)

[Alistaroc]

It's me again, back with no clue how to make this build work.
I'm used to running with Spheres of Power/Might, Path of War, and Akasha...
So now I'm making a backup character, Level 1, Paizo-only.
And I need some help, I'm way too MAD for Level 1.

I'm trying to make a heavy-armor Antagonize build focused around keeping my party alive. I know that death is the best CC, but I feel a little bad playing my barbarian for this new GM... I hit for 17 damage (2d6+6+2) two turns in a row, with a third 17 from the rogue missing using a feat (can't recall name). I don't wanna make him feel like he's not balancing encounters well (it's a module).

So anyway.

Tiefling (Hellspawn or Foulspawn) are all but lock-ins for Wisdom builds here it seems.
Ghoran > Aasimar (Idyllkin) > Tiefling (Shackleborn) > Ganzi for Charisma builds seems logical

Antagonize keys off of Charisma (Intimidate, Diplomacy) with a bonus for decent Wis (Sense Motive).
Battlefield controlling at level 1 is limited... Divine Fighting Technique, Way of Patient Strikes would give me AoOs without Dex, but it keys off of Wisdom. So does the Way of Hunger, which would potentially give me enough temp HP to mean something (but that route then requires additional Str to covert to temp HP).

So current problems:
1. MAD between Str for damage, Con for HP, Wis for Divine Fighting, and Cha for Antagonize
2. Not sure what Class to go? Nothing seems to fit at Level 1. Warpriest seems closest?
3. Not sure how to... survive... being hit so often. Again, Way of Hunger isn't a perfect fix here yet.

Any input would help, I can't seem to piece together this jigsaw puzzle of a build, but it feels like there should be a way to make it work.

TL;DR - Antagonize build Level 1 Paizo only plz help

So after some input, I think I might switch to a Trip build, Dex-based, maybe Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 1? Or vice-versa? Any help is appreciated!
So far it seems Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, and Bladed Brush would be the goals for feats? Or Improved Trip?
Honestly I'm fairly lost, any help is appreciated.

Cheers guys, thanks for tolerating these walls of text.

[Gallowglass]

Well, you are going to need a lot of feats. I mean a lot of feats. At level 1 you aren't going to have a very complete or effective build. Especially if you are skipping human for one of your listed races.

So, yeah, I would go with warpriest. You wont' get as many bonus feats as a fighter, but you'll get some.

Antagonize -> 1 feat
Way of the Patient Strikes -> 1 feat + putting Weapon Focus(warhammer) and vital strike on your toget list

to get rid of MAD, you'll have to figure out how to move everything you want to STR/WIS and away from CHA/CON

You can use Intimidating Prowess to remove your dependence on CHA by adding STR to Intimidate.

I think if I was you I would try to convince the DM that lucerne hammer is just a really long warhammer and work on using reach to help with battlefield control ;)

Also, while warpriest will be overall better, you could Inquisitor 1 first with the ACF to use WIS instead of CHA for bluff, diplomacy and intimidate. That would be easier than getting the feat and let you concentrate on WIS as your SAD.

[Alistaroc]

Very constructive and positive feedback
Yeah, Inquisitors d make it pretty Wisdom dependent, but that makes the Sense Motive boost for Antagonize rather useless doesn't it?
My thing with going Str rather than Con is I want to defend more than I really attack... I'd honestly rather just eat the less attack and damage for more hits taken via Antagonize.
Now that I'm thinking about it, that feat about granting allies an attack when I miss would be pretty interesting if I dropped Str maybe?

[upho]

Unfortunately, I feel I have to do something which I very rarely do: advice against your wishes.


I'm trying to make a heavy-armor Antagonize build focused around keeping my party alive.Honestly, unless you're playing in a very low-powered game, Antagonize sucks because it:

has awful action economy in general and competes with a lot of stuff for your far most important 1st standard action of every combat (you can use that standard action for way more effective things than imposing a bit of soft control on 1 single enemy)
is highly MAD-inducing in itself and the costs of fixing that MAD are relatively high

There are much more effective control option combos than Antagonize to defend your party.


I know that death is the best CC,That saying isn't true in PF, considering the possible alternatives and the many potential means to ignore lethal damage (the damage instant which actually brings you below dying hp) and other killing effects, not to mention immediately pop back into life again. Even if we're solely talking about martial class builds, the higher up the levels you go, the more likely it is that the most optimized damage build possible is less effective at taking enemies out of combat than its counterpart focusing on control is. Or in other words, a PF supercharger can easily kill the Tarrasque in the opening combat round, while a PF melee control build can reliably daze an entire family of 4 tarrasques for more than 5 rounds during that same round. The same relation is generally true also for less highly optimized builds.

More importantly, it's way less costly to interrogate live enemies than dead ones after combat.


but I feel a little bad playing my barbarian for this new GM... I hit for 17 damage (2d6+6+2) two turns in a row, with a third 17 from the rogue missing using a feat (can't recall name). I don't wanna make him feel like he's not balancing encounters well (it's a module).This is great thinking; practical optimization = the most fun for everyone involved, which usually includes balancing your PC to the table. However, even in the case of the low bar of modules/APs published by Paizo, I believe Antagonize is a really weak option that will gimp your PCs ability to protect the party.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, if you want a build focused around keeping my party alive, a good place to start is Combat Reflexes + Bodyguard + the Helpful trait, and later adding Scarlet Rose Devotion and maybe Blundering Defense. The net effect is that your allies gain a sizeable AC bonus just for standing next to you.

If you want to improve on this concept, make it a Battle Scion Skald and start sharing feats like Back to Back, Shake it Off, or Lastwall Phalanx. And since you're a skald anyway, you'll have spells that work like Antagonize but are actually more effective; such as Lock Gaze and Oppressive Boredom.

HTH!

[upho]

Kurald gave great advice. The Bodyguard combo nets you a defender mechanic more appropriate for Paizo APs.

If the game continues past 10th or so and you decided for a full bab class instead of the skald or warpriest, you may want to tune that up a bit further. Which is typically easily done by simply adding a few combat maneuver tricks, boosting your your reach, and/or adding other debuffing effects such as combat demoralization with Cornugon Smash.

[Alistaroc]

Constructive advice regarding the effectiveness of CC in Pathfinder and the underwhelming nature of AntagonizeHm, I confess I didn't know melee CC in pathfinder could be so good, although I pity the party going up against 4 Tarrasques. My thing is, I don't really see many alternatives to Antagonize, at least not in the way that doesn't overshadow other members. We are currently Level 1, soon to be Level 2, but we will probably need to take a break for a stretch soon, so this is a very low level game. I wouldn't say the party is extremely low-powered, but the other player with game knowledge is used to 3rd party as well, and the other player has a very hard time with the rules and remembering their character(I don't blame them). We certainly aren't a Playground-optimized group.


A very helpful reply of Bodyguard and Skald combosThe Bodyguard combo seems pretty nice, but my gripe with it is that it requires being adjacent. My party members are a rogue and a bard; the rogue wants to be behind the enemy for flanking (sneak attack), and the bard... does not want to be within melee range. Without a way to extend the range of Bodyguard, it doesn't really help my party. Is there any way to do this?
As for the Skald, I am a big fan of Skalds, but that build doesn't seem to kick in until 3rd level, and again relies a lot on adjacency.


An interesting point about higher-level combat maneuvers.Would combat maneuvers still be viable debuffing at 1st level? Trip doesn't seem too bad, but I can't tell if it requires more feats than are viable at such a low level.

Ultimately, I'm not dead-set on Antagonize. It's just that it's the only thing I've found that will let my allies, a bard and a rogue, shine and do what they want.

[Kurald Galain]

Would combat maneuvers still be viable debuffing at 1st level? Trip doesn't seem too bad, but I can't tell if it requires more feats than are viable at such a low level.

It requires zero feats and a reach weapon :smallcool:

[Alistaroc]

A succinct and polite endorsement of trip
And it can be done well with just that? Not even Improved Trip or something?

[Kurald Galain]

And it can be done well with just that? Not even Improved Trip or something?
It's viable at level one with just a reach weapon.

Of course as you level up, you'll want to invest feats / traits / items in that; your priority should probably be Combat Reflexes so you can get lots of OAs, and probably the trait Heirloom Weapon which gives you +2. And bear in mind that every bonus to attack rolls (including magic weapons, buff spells, and bards) applies to tripping as well. Tripping requires surprisingly little investment to be viable.

[Alistaroc]

Helpful info about trippingI notice you keep emphasizing a reach weapon, is this because it would avoid the AoO from not having Improved Trip? I'm wondering if a Dexterity build would work, it would give decent to-hit and AC... And I magine there's SOME fighter archetype (or another full BAB class) that has tripping bonuses?

EDIT: By Level 2 a Human Fighter could have Dirty Fighting, Improved Trip, Agile Maneuvers, and Fury's Fall. It loses out on the extra AoOs from Combat Reflexes, but it would have double Dex to trip, plus masterwork, plus the Heirloom bonus, plus BAB, which comes to... 3+2*Dex, which could be maybe +11 or +13? Seems nice.

[upho]

I notice you keep emphasizing a reach weapon, is this because it would avoid the AoO from not having Improved Trip? I'm wondering if a Dexterity build would work, it would give decent to-hit and AC... And I magine there's SOME fighter archetype (or another full BAB class) that has tripping bonuses?Yes, you'll typically avoid provoking if you trip with reach during the earliest levels. But for a melee control/debuff/defender type of build, reach remains king during all levels; the greater the area you threaten, the more you'll get out of your other investments.


EDIT: By Level 2 a Human Fighter could have Dirty Fighting, Improved Trip, Agile Maneuvers, and Fury's Fall. It loses out on the extra AoOs from Combat Reflexes, but it would have double Dex to trip, plus masterwork, plus the Heirloom bonus, plus BAB, which comes to... 3+2*Dex, which could be maybe +11 or +13? Seems nice.Just a few notes here:

You don't need Agile Maneuvers in order to use Dex to trip if you get Weapon Finesse (which you'll want anyways as a Dex-based melee combatant), and you can't add the same ability modifier twice to the same d20 roll. So no double Dex modifier to trip with Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall. The same is true for also for all other combat maneuvers which you can make using your weapon per default, meaning disarm, sunder and dirty trick in many cases (subject to your creativity and DM fiat). (Note that no typed bonuses "equal to your [X ability] modifier" are subject to this limitation and follow the normal bonus stacking rules.)
If worshiping Shelyn would go well with the character you have in mind, the Bladed Brush (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bladed%20Brush) feat is a decent way to Finesse a reach weapon, and combines beautifully with a 1-level Swashbuckler dip for free Finesse, the nifty self-defense Opportune Parry and Riposte (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler/#TOC-Deeds) deed and a few other minor assorted goodies.
In comparison to Str-based melee, Dex-based requires additional resources (especially feats) to get going, doesn't have as many strong combos and suffers a bit from size increases (which you'll really want whenever possible as a party defender), but of course also comes with quite a few great perks (such as more AoOs, greater initiative and better AC).

So a Dex-based 2nd level human fighter focusing on trip would likely be better off with Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes rather than Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall. With an 18 Dex, this fighter would end up with a trip CMB of up to at least +10 (2 bab, 4 Dex, 2 Improved Trip, 2 Heirloom). Which is pretty darn decent, considering the average CMD of CR 1 published opponents is only 14.

When it comes to trip specifically there are tons of fun and effective options, but it's unfortunately also the maneuver monsters are most commonly flat-out immune to, notably since simply flying is enough in most cases.

[Alistaroc]

Yes, you'll typically avoid provoking if you trip with reach during the earliest levels. But for a melee control/debuff/defender type of build, reach remains king during all levels; the greater the area you threaten, the more you'll get out of your other investments.

Just a few notes here:

You don't need Agile Maneuvers in order to use Dex to trip if you get Weapon Finesse (which you'll want anyways as a Dex-based melee combatant), and you can't add the same ability modifier twice to the same d20 roll. So no double Dex modifier to trip with Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall. The same is true for also for all other combat maneuvers which you can make using your weapon per default, meaning disarm, sunder and dirty trick in many cases (subject to your creativity and DM fiat). (Note that no typed bonuses "equal to your [X ability] modifier" are subject to this limitation and follow the normal bonus stacking rules.)
If worshiping Shelyn would go well with the character you have in mind, the Bladed Brush (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bladed%20Brush) feat is a decent way to Finesse a reach weapon, and combines beautifully with a 1-level Swashbuckler dip for free Finesse, the nifty self-defense Opportune Parry and Riposte (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler/#TOC-Deeds) deed and a few other minor assorted goodies.
In comparison to Str-based melee, Dex-based requires additional resources (especially feats) to get going, doesn't have as many strong combos and suffers a bit from size increases (which you'll really want whenever possible as a party defender), but of course also comes with quite a few great perks (such as more AoOs, greater initiative and better AC).

So a Dex-based 2nd level human fighter focusing on trip would likely be better off with Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes rather than Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall. With an 18 Dex, this fighter would end up with a trip CMB of up to at least +10 (2 bab, 4 Dex, 2 Improved Trip, 2 Heirloom). Which is pretty darn decent, considering the average CMD of CR 1 published opponents is only 14.

When it comes to trip specifically there are tons of fun and effective options, but it's unfortunately also the maneuver monsters are most commonly flat-out immune to, notably since simply flying is enough in most cases.
Okay, so if I understand correctly, you can't add your Dexterity twice to the same roll unless it's a typed bonus such as an Enhancement bonus? Or do I have that backwards and you can add Dexterity twice only so long as it's an untyped bonus?

Then for Bladed Brush, I really like that feat actually, it would require my Human bonus feat, Weapon Focus for Level 1, and a level of Swashbuckler. Which wouldn't leave me Combat Reflexes until a Level 2 move into Fighter... Or do I have that backwards and I should dip Swashbuckler at 2?

I realize Dex isn't ideal, but it seems like a good route to hit often and be helpful without doing loads of damage? And size increased hurt it I am aware. Now that you mention it though being trip-immune seems like a problem... Could I use Dirty Trick to somehow be just as useful protecting my allies? Or is Trip my only solid route to that.

On another note, can I even trip on an AoO? Or is that something that I need to do on MY turn? Cuz it would be nice to trip enemies trying to get to my allies? Although I suppose I could ready an action.

[Kurald Galain]

I realize Dex isn't ideal, but it seems like a good route to hit often and be helpful without doing loads of damage?
There's a few ways of adding dex to damage, such as the Agile weapon enchantment. Primarily, you deal damage from getting lots of attacks.


that you mention it though being trip-immune seems like a problem... Could I use Dirty Trick to somehow be just as useful protecting my allies?
Yes, for instance to blind enemies. And trip-immune enemies aren't that common (unless you play at e.g. level 15+ where everything flies). It's simply that every character needs a backup option for when its main option isn't working.


On another note, can I even trip on an AoO?
Yes. This is why you want Combat Reflexes on this build.

[Alistaroc]

There's a few ways of adding dex to damage, such as the Agile weapon enchantment. Primarily, you deal damage from getting lots of attacks.


Yes, for instance to blind enemies. And trip-immune enemies aren't that common (unless you play at e.g. level 15+ where everything flies). It's simply that every character needs a backup option for when its main option isn't working.


Yes. This is why you want Combat Reflexes on this build.
I'm not looking to get Dex to Damage actually, I like that it will keep my damage more in line with the party and my new role.
Would you say the Swashbuckler dip is a good idea? Before or after a level of Fighter?
I'm just trying to wrap my head around this 180.

EDIT: Edited main post to be about Trip

[upho]

Okay, so if I understand correctly, you can't add your Dexterity twice to the same roll unless it's a typed bonus such as an Enhancement bonus? Or do I have that backwards and you can add Dexterity twice only so long as it's an untyped bonus?You've got it exactly right. This is a special rule only for untyped ability modifier bonuses (such as that provided by Fury's Fall). Other untyped bonuses still stack with everything, and typed bonuses equal to an ability modifier stacks just as normal for that bonus type. So yes, you could theoretically have options which for example add your Dex modifier to trip attempts, grants an enhancement bonus to trip equal to your Dex modifier, and provides an insight bonus to trip equal to your Dex modifier, effectively adding netting you three Dex-based bonuses. But theses wouldn't stack with for example Fury's Fall, your weapon enhancement bonus (which you normally add to trip CMB), or another insight bonus to attack rolls in general, or to CMB or trip CMB specifically.


Then for Bladed Brush, I really like that feat actually, it would require my Human bonus feat, Weapon Focus for Level 1, and a level of Swashbuckler. Which wouldn't leave me Combat Reflexes until a Level 2 move into Fighter... Or do I have that backwards and I should dip Swashbuckler at 2?I'd probably start with the swashbuckler level to get the basic weapon stuff going immediately and avoid having to retrain stuff later on. Also note that depending on the style of your game, you may be able to find/buy/craft a cracked opalescent white pyramid (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone/) (a.k.a. a "COWPIS" :smallsmile:) and a wayfinder, granting you Weapon Focus for a mere 2,000 gp. If that's possible, you'll of course also want to retrain WF if possible once you get said stone.


I realize Dex isn't ideal, but it seems like a good route to hit often and be helpful without doing loads of damage? And size increased hurt it I am aware.Dex isn't necessarily less good, it's just different and comes with a bit more restrictions and less numerous viable options to choose from. And again, the perks of going Dex-based are also quite significant. And especially for the type of build you seem to be interested in, I think Dex can be superior to Str.


Now that you mention it though being trip-immune seems like a problem...As Kurald has hinted at, trip is typically by far the best combat maneuver for a defender up to at least 9th level or so. In addition, there are many options for trip, and you can pump your trip CMB bonus ridiculously high for relatively low costs. The potential drawback is that it comes with more hard limitations than any other combat maneuver (size difference cap, substantial CMD bonuses or immunity via flight, multiple legs or weird physiology). So just as Kurald noted, it's not a good idea to have your combat effectiveness highly dependent on you being able to trip your opponent in higher levels.

(Ironically, dirty trick is actually far better suited for more of a "one-trick pony-build in higher levels, since the maneuver comes with such great flexibility per default.)


Could I use Dirty Trick to somehow be just as useful protecting my allies? Or is Trip my only solid route to that.Dirty trick can be an excellent defender tool which can be made to remain highly effective against practically all foes you'll ever face, but it also requires a bit more investment and therefore usually also a slightly higher level than trip before it really starts to pay off. So I wouldn't start off by investing in dirty stuff.

Note also that it definitely doesn't have to be the case that you can only focus on either trip or dirty trick. Quite the contrary, actually, since they can make for excellent defender combos together. And of course, quite a few other combat maneuvers can be made into fantastic "reach/AoO defender" tools also in 1PP PF, including less immediately obvious ones such as bull rush and grapple.


On another note, can I even trip on an AoO? Or is that something that I need to do on MY turn? Cuz it would be nice to trip enemies trying to get to my allies? Although I suppose I could ready an action.Trip happens to be one of the few combat maneuvers which can be made in place of any melee attack per default, while most require a standard action. And tripping AoOs keeping enemies away from your allies is also the primary reason why trip can be such a great defender tool. From mid-levels, trip also becomes a fantastic AoO trigger via Greater Trip, which can be combined with numerous other options to potentially set off long chains of AoOs and other additional combat maneuvers. Also note that a trip focus tends to make your melee buddies very happy but your ranged ones quite a bit less so...


I'm not looking to get Dex to Damage actually, I like that it will keep my damage more in line with the party and my new role.IME you can safely ignore Dex to damage, as typically by the time when you can first afford it, your control stuff will be good enough your damage output won't be particularly important. However, note that versatility is never a bad thing, and you should definitely consider adding Dex to damage at some point later on.


Would you say the Swashbuckler dip is a good idea? Before or after a level of Fighter?
I'm just trying to wrap my head around this 180.There are quite a huge number of possible good or better build combinations for a trip and/or dirty trick focused defender, the "swashbuckler 1/other martial class X" just one among them. It goes particularly well with a Bladed Brush Dex build, especially one also interested in having a decent Cha for combat demoralization and social skills.

Depending on the level of optimization you're looking for, there may very well be other interesting dips, such as Master of Many Styles (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) monk 1 for a bunch of bonus stuff and carefree simultaneous use of two Style feat stances. And note that for example the barbarian and especially the bloodrager can often be superior to the fighter in this role, depending on which particular combat style you're looking for (even as Dex-based). Though if you're looking to go into trip and later also dirty trick, having most levels in (Lorewarden (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/lore-warden-pfs-field-guide/)) fighter will be great since you'll want a metric ton of feats and will make great use of the untyped scaling CMB bonus.

I'd be happy to put together a quick build outline if you can give me an idea of the power level appropriate for your table.

[Alistaroc]

Being a saint
You're so helpful omg, thank you. 2000gp might be doable, I will have a large investment in renovating our base though. I don't know what route I want to go with Trip though... it seems Swashbuckler+Fighter is the route for a reach build, but Monk(+Fighter?) would be best for numbers? I'm a fan of MoMS monk in general; here it looks like Brute and Wolf styles would be good? I defer to your knowledge though. The party is Level 1, soon to be 2, I'm not planning past 3; we're allowed flexibility until then. We have a Monkey Goblin Unchained Rogue (1d6+1d6 SA), using a mwk shortsword, without TWF, and his feat lets him grant me an attack if he misses currently. Our other party member is a Kasatha Bard that... Inspires... they've not quite learned much else, although they did just get a mwk light crossbow. My current build is an unintentionally high DPS Ghoran Barbarian (+6, 2d6+6+power attack), and I want to switch to a slightly more... flanking buddy and friend protector. Optimization is fine, I just don't want it to be for damage; optimizing to protect my party is awesome. I tend to ramble, so I'm sorry if I missed something, I really do appreciate your help, thank you so much.

[exelsisxax]

You're so helpful omg, thank you. 2000gp might be doable, I will have a large investment in renovating our base though. I don't know what route I want to go with Trip though... it seems Swashbuckler+Fighter is the route for a reach build, but Monk(+Fighter?) would be best for numbers? I'm a fan of MoMS monk in general; here it looks like Brute and Wolf styles would be good? I defer to your knowledge though. The party is Level 1, soon to be 2, I'm not planning past 3; we're allowed flexibility until then. We have a Monkey Goblin Unchained Rogue (1d6+1d6 SA), using a mwk shortsword, without TWF, and his feat lets him grant me an attack if he misses currently. Our other party member is a Kasatha Bard that... Inspires... they've not quite learned much else, although they did just get a mwk light crossbow. My current build is an unintentionally high DPS Ghoran Barbarian (+6, 2d6+6+power attack), and I want to switch to a slightly more... flanking buddy and friend protector. Optimization is fine, I just don't want it to be for damage; optimizing to protect my party is awesome. I tend to ramble, so I'm sorry if I missed something, I really do appreciate your help, thank you so much.

Uhh.... that's perfectly average damage for a level 1 frontliner. If that's too much damage a trip build would be overpowered. Any half-assed attempt would probably be far stronger.

[Alistaroc]

Uhh.... that's perfectly average damage for a level 1 frontliner
I know it looks like it should be, but I'm getting +2 morale to attack and damage from the Bard (DM fiat that Inspire does another +1 if you make music while doing it), and regular extra attacks from the rogue missing. And somehow I just roll high for damage, I tend to oneshot or twoshot (rarely) anything we've fought. 34 damage in one round from 2 attacks seems above average at level 1. I realize that's partially because the rogue is helping me out, but even 17 damage is high. I just want to shift to something that doesn't steal the show so much.

[exelsisxax]

I know it looks like it should be, but I'm getting +2 morale to attack and damage from the Bard (DM fiat that Inspire does another +1 if you make music while doing it), and regular extra attacks from the rogue missing. And somehow I just roll high for damage, I tend to oneshot or twoshot (rarely) anything we've fought. 34 damage in one round from 2 attacks seems above average at level 1. I realize that's partially because the rogue is helping me out, but even 17 damage is high. I just want to shift to something that doesn't steal the show so much.

I shall be more explicit: that amount of damage is underwhelming, and changing your build will make your character stronger. You are incorrectly assuming that your (paltry) damage is a measure of power, when it is not. The rogue (assault leader rogue talent i think?) is contributing more to the party than you are. Unless your party also shares the false belief that power is measured in damage, they will be able to recognize the fact that you are overshadowing them.

So first of all, do the other players think you're stealing the show? Because this could easily just be a thing going on in your head because you want to be nice, while in reality everyone is having great fun setting you up as the finisher.

Then, you need to recognize that a trip build is going to be an upgrade. You will go from just doing damage to controlling the entire battle from start to finish and possibly doing even more damage. You will have an objectively more powerful character, only you will do less damage per attack. In reality, you will go from not overshadowing allies to actually determining their success behind the screen. Is that what you want?

[Alistaroc]

Is that what you want?
Honest answer? I don't know. I'm not used to being a player, and as a player, I'm not used to the party being "Buff the Barbarian," as my DM puts it. I don't know if the other players have a problem with my character being the center of our strategy, I just personally don't know what to do with it. My inclination would be yes, I'd rather determine success from behind the scenes rather than being the buffed one. I'd usually play the Assault Leader Rogue rather than the frontline DPS. At least with a controlling (tanking) role, I'd be helpful without doing the flashy part. Damage may not be the most optimized route in the game, but in the end, it's how you win most fights (until you have Save-or-Dies I suppose), and you measure success or failure by it.

[exelsisxax]

Honest answer? I don't know. I'm not used to being a player, and as a player, I'm not used to the party being "Buff the Barbarian," as my DM puts it. I don't know if the other players have a problem with my character being the center of our strategy, I just personally don't know what to do with it. My inclination would be yes, I'd rather determine success from behind the scenes rather than being the buffed one. I'd usually play the Assault Leader Rogue rather than the frontline DPS. At least with a controlling (tanking) role, I'd be helpful without doing the flashy part. Damage may not be the most optimized route in the game, but in the end, it's how you win most fights (until you have Save-or-Dies I suppose), and you measure success or failure by it.

Then you are trying to do something which directly opposes that. A trip build intentionally tries to become the party strategy. You are going from being part of the team strategy(bard buffs you and the rogue, you meatshield for the rogue and flank for him, he gives you free attacks) to being the center of all things (you trip everything forever, your allies make AoO).

But you didn't answer the important question: what do the other players think? Because everyone else might be having a great time working together and you would unknowingly throw a wrench in it.

[Kurald Galain]

I shall be more explicit: that amount of damage is underwhelming, and changing your build will make your character stronger.

Wait wait wait wait.

That may be true in your games, but it's definitely not underwhelming in a level-1 Paizo-only game, and the impression I get from the original poster is that he's upstaging the other characters.

No, there's nothing wrong with doing 2d6+8 per hit. But if the other chars do substantially less, then moving to a more support- or enabling-oriented role such as a tripper sounds like a benefit to the entire party.

[Alistaroc]

But you didn't answer the important question: what do the other players think?

I don't know if the other players have a problem with my character being the center of our strategy, I just personally don't know what to do with it.Sorry, I tried, but I don't really know. And I half don't trust what they say because I know them, and if they do have a problem, they won't say so to be nice.
------------------------

upstaging
This is what it feels like, and what I want to avoid.

[upho]

OK, before we get into further details, I'd just like to make both the combat power span of various dedicated trip builds - and often just as importantly their type of combat power - more clear so that you won't have to make a PC that turns out feeling UP or OP for your game. In short, you could say both exels and Kurald are correct, meaning:

Yes dedicated trip builds are generally considerably more effective combatants than classic boring full-attacking DPR builds and they do tend to be more active during combat.
Despite point #1, a defense-focused trip build can still be far more suitable than a DPR focused full attacker.

The primary reasons for this are of course that a) melee control is excellent for protecting the entire party and can be made to make every member better at what they do in combat, and b) high damage tends to be anathema to interesting fights and often hinders RP opportunities, while more temporarily debilitating effects and control generally does the opposite. Or in other words, a game in which a PC makes the BBEG sickened, shaken and prone in the first turn is still vastly more interesting than one in which a PC simply one-shots the BBEG before he even had a chance to act (and show off all his cool stuff the GM has prepared). That said, as mentioned you can certainly make melee control builds which would be considered far too powerful for most games and groups.

Keep this in mind when choosing between the mechanical options for this PC. And more importantly, I really recommend you also talk about this with the people at your table so you all can get a better understanding of the power level you should try to aim for when choosing mechanical options for your characters. As you're probably already aware, PF allows for vastly different power levels, and unintentionally ending up with a PCs that turns out to be unsuitable for the game five or ten levels in isn't very fun.


You're so helpful omg, thank you.Thank you for the kind words. And you're welcome!


2000gp might be doable, I will have a large investment in renovating our base though.No worries, I'm certain you'll do just fine either way. And if you do get your hands on the stone later on you can easily retrain WF anyways (if taken as one of your fighter bonus feats). But generally speaking, you should value anything that saves you feat slots very highly, since those things help get your (likely) very feat intensive combat style online earlier.


I don't know what route I want to go with Trip though... it seems Swashbuckler+Fighter is the route for a reach build, but Monk(+Fighter?) would be best for numbers?Not necessarily, and dipping both is definitely an option. Instead, I think the difference between the two tends to be that the swashbuckler dip is just great basic defender stuff, while the MoMS dip is for getting quicker and/or unique access to far more complex combos. For the time being, I think you should wait with the MoMS dip and get a feel for the baseline build first, since that dip probably won't be vital unless you actually wanna go high-op.


I'm a fan of MoMS monk in general; here it looks like Brute and Wolf styles would be good?Those aren't bad, though there are less costly ways to get their most important benefits (most notably Ki Throw (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ki-throw-combat/) which completely sidesteps the whole adjacent/reach issue with Vicious Stomp). In the case of a trip and dirty trick build, I'd say the MoMS dip is more often for combo enablers like Ascetic Style (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style/) and dirty trick action economy enhancers such as Kitsune Vengeance (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kitsune-vengeance-combat-style/) and/or Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cloak-and-dagger-subterfuge-combat/). I think you can imagine some of the fantastic possibilities these styles allow when combined with Greater Trip, Dirty Trick Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat/) and say Ki Throw, Vicious Stomp and a dueling (PSFG) (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) weapon, plus maybe Improved Ki Throw (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-ki-throw-combat/) and a leveraging (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/leveraging/) weapon for extra cheestastic multi-dazing hilarity... :smalltongue:


The party is Level 1, soon to be 2, I'm not planning past 3; we're allowed flexibility until then.Allowing free changes/retraining is a very good houserule. You can probably make good use of it in this case, although keep in mind that the more effective combos typically consist of quite a few options, which in turn requires that you plan your build further up the levels. And you likely won't have access to many options until further up the levels and need to make sure you meet the prereqs when the time comes (such as the more powerful dirty trick stuff mentioned above which typically becomes available at 11th level at the earliest).


We have a Monkey Goblin Unchained Rogue (1d6+1d6 SA), using a mwk shortsword, without TWF, and his feat lets him grant me an attack if he misses currently. Our other party member is a Kasatha Bard that... Inspires... they've not quite learned much else, although they did just get a mwk light crossbow. My current build is an unintentionally high DPS Ghoran Barbarian (+6, 2d6+6+power attack), and I want to switch to a slightly more... flanking buddy and friend protector. Optimization is fine, I just don't want it to be for damage; optimizing to protect my party is awesome.Hmm... Don't be too quick to say your damage is too high, since 1st level is infamously rocket-taggy to begin with and most things die from a crit or just a lucky damage roll with a two-handed weapon. But it appears to me that you should be very careful with optimizing also a defense focused PC for this party, or you'll end up feeling like - as well as actually being - the OP centerpiece of virtually every combat despite having a considerably lower damage output than your current barbarian.

(As a side note, how did you end up with only a +6 damage bonus? Judging by your attack bonus, you have a Str of at least 20 while raging, which in turn should give you a minimum of +7 (1.5 x 5 Str mod). Or are you actually wielding a one-handed weapon with a 2d6 damage die? Otherwise, it appears that with Power Attack, your total damage should be at least 2d6+10.)

[Alistaroc]

Those aren't bad, though there are less costly ways to get their most important benefits (most notably Ki Throw (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ki-throw-combat/) which completely sidesteps the whole adjacent/reach issue with Vicious Stomp). In the case of a trip and dirty trick build, I'd say the MoMS dip is more often for combo enablers like Ascetic Style (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style/) and dirty trick action economy enhancers such as Kitsune Vengeance (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kitsune-vengeance-combat-style/) and/or Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cloak-and-dagger-subterfuge-combat/). I think you can imagine some of the fantastic possibilities these styles allow when combined with Greater Trip, Dirty Trick Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat/) and say Ki Throw, Vicious Stomp and a dueling (PSFG) (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) weapon, plus maybe Improved Ki Throw (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-ki-throw-combat/) and a leveraging (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/leveraging/) weapon for extra cheestastic multi-dazing hilarity... :smalltongue:
This is... just nutty, wow :smallbiggrin:

(As a side note, how did you end up with only a +6 damage bonus? Judging by your attack bonus, you have a Str of at least 20 while raging, which in turn should give you a minimum of +7 (1.5 x 5 Str mod). Or are you actually wielding a one-handed weapon with a 2d6 damage die? Otherwise, it appears that with Power Attack, your total damage should be at least 2d6+10.) I shifted my points around to not be a glass cannon barbarian; I have 14 Str and Dex, and 18 Con. So when raging I have +4 from Str, +1 from BAB, +1 from masterwork weapon, and +1 from Heirloom Weapon trait. Power attack would be +5 (2d6+9) before morale, but quite honestly most things have died with me forgetting to use it...:smallredface:

[upho]

This is... just nutty, wow :smallbiggrin:That's a quite fitting description, yeah. Especially Dirty Trick Master can be made extremely powerful, since a dazed or nauseated enemy can't even take the standard action to remove the condition. Combined with for example Greater Trip, Kitsune Vengeance and Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge, every attack you make can be a trip attempt, which in turn provokes an AoO, which can be replaced with a dirty trick and allows you to make a second dirty trick as a free action. So with a high enough CMB, the end result triggered by a single melee attack (made as part of a full attack, standard action, AoO or whatever) is likely leaving the enemy prone and dazed for at least an average of 5 rounds, and often they won't even get a chance to do anything about it. The only action cost for you being one of the AoOs you can make during the round.


I shifted my points around to not be a glass cannon barbarian; I have 14 Str and Dex, and 18 Con. So when raging I have +4 from Str, +1 from BAB, +1 from masterwork weapon, and +1 from Heirloom Weapon trait.Ah, of course, now I get it. Thanks.


Power attack would be +5 (2d6+9) before morale, but quite honestly most things have died with me forgetting to use it...:smallredface:That's absolutely normal for a barb during first level, since the average hp of CR 1 opponents published by Paizo (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3) is approximately 12.2, and even with a relatively low Str and forgetting about the morale bonus you deal an average of 16 per attack. But this relation changes quickly within just a couple of levels; the average hp of a CR 3 foe being 30.3, usually more than a damage focused level 3 barb is capable of delivering with a single attack. (Though of course, I guess the theoretical max average damage per swing for a 3rd level barb in your party would be about three times that, probably from something stupidly over-focused like an enlarged orc or aasimar Titan Mauler with a Huge lead blades-ed butchering axe and Spirited Charge, making a mounted charge for about 2 x (8d6+15) = average 86.)

Regardless, you shouldn't play something you feel uncomfortable with, and you'll probably do great with a defender type combat role in this party, leaving the management of the damage department to the rogue.

Oh, and before I forget again, here's a quick build outline which hopefully give you a few tips and some inspiration:

The following details a sorta mid-op trip fighter-based defender with the swashbuckler dip we've talked about. Larry is a relatively straight-forward build which simply aims for the Vicious Stomp and Ki Throw feats to trip and hurl enemies into each other for some serious mass control. (This includes values from pretty standard items and a few buffs for this kind of build, but nothing unique or fancy.)

BASICS
Human Swashbuckler 1, Fighter (Lore Warden) 10
CG Large humanoid (human)

Ability Scores (20-point buy)
Str 13 9 base, 2 enhancement (belt), 2 size (enlarge person)
Dex 22 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 4 enhancement (belt), -2 size (enlarge person)
Con 16 14 base, 2 enhancement (belt)
Int 9 7 base, 2 enhancement (headband)
Wis 16 14 base, 2 enhancement (headband)
Cha 16 14 base, 2 enhancement (headband)

Alternate Racial Trait Scion of Humanity
Traits Avid Reader, Deathtouched, Heirloom Weapon
Drawback Meticulous (–2 penalty on untrained skills)


LEVEL PROGRESSION


Level
Class
Notable Features
Feats
Comments


1
Swashbuckler 1
Opportune Parry and Riposte, swashbuckler finesse
Bladed Brush, Weapon Focus (glaive)B
Basic Dex-based opportune buckling and swashing...


2
Fighter 1
Bonus feat
Combat ReflexesB
...with a reach weapon!


3
Fighter 2
Bonus feats
Combat ExpertiseB, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed StrikeB
The basic trip defender combo is now in place. Thankfully, Larry has swashbuckler finesse and therefore no need of Int 13 for feats relying on Combat Expertise.


4
Fighter 3
Maneuver mastery
-
Larry starts getting his Lore Warden CMB bonus.


5
Fighter 4
Bonus feat
Ki Throw, Vicious StompB
Larry's AoO fiesta gets going with Vicious AoOs and some very nifty repositioning via Ki Throw.


6
Fighter 5
Weapon training
-
Access to advanced weapon training options is nice for later levels.


7
Fighter 6
Bonus feat
Greater TripB, Power Attack
Larry's AoO fiesta continues with 2 AoOs triggered per trip success. There's unfortunately no easy way around Power Attack, which is needed for Improved Bull Rush, which in turn is needed for Improved Ki Throw. :smallsigh: Thankfully Power Attack grants Larry a bit of useful combat versatility.


8
Fighter 7
Know thy enemy
-
-


9
Fighter 8
Bonus feat
Improved Bull RushB, Improved Ki Throw
Now the trip fiesta really gets going with some serious crowd control via Improved Ki Throw, allowing Larry to trip multiple enemies per attack and keep them close.


10
Fighter 9
Advanced weapon training: Fighter's Tactics
-
With Greater Bull Rush and Paired Opportunists the next level, Larry can grant both his allies and himself even more AoOs!


11
Fighter 10
Bonus feat
Greater Bull RushB, Paired Opportunists
And finally Larry's AoO fiesta reaches its peak!.



EXAMPLE COMBAT VALUES
My comments in red.

Initiative +7 (6 dex, 1 competence (dusty rose prism))
Senses darkvision 60'; Perception +22 (3 class, 3 wis, 11 ranks, 5 competence (Eyes of the Eagle))

Defense
AC 30, touch 18, flat-footed 22 (5 armor, 3 armor enhancement, 1 natural, 1 shield, 2 shield enhancement, 6 dex, 2 deflection, 1 dodge, -1 size
HP 108 (10 swashbuckler 1st level, 10d10 fighter, 33 con, 10 favored class)
Fort +14 (3 con, 7 fighter, 3 resistance, 1 competence (pale green prism))
Ref +16 (6 dex, 2 swashbuckler, 3 fighter, 3 resistance, 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 haste)
Will +10 (+12 vs mind-affecting) (3 wis, 3 fighter, 3 resistance, 1 competence (pale green prism))
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
All these are decent or better, with the exception of Will which is barely acceptable at this level. But thankfully Larry gets a bit of help from his Deathless trait against many of the most dangerous related effects.

Offense
Glaive Attack +23/+23/+18/+13 (11 bab, 6 dex, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 Weapon Focus, 1 enhancement, 1 haste, -1 size)
Glaive Damage 2d8+6 (2d8+15 with Power Attack) (2d8 large glaive, 1 str, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 enhancement)
Glaive Trip CMB +38/+38/+33/+28 (11 bab, 6 dex, 4 maneuver mastery, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 Weapon Focus, 2 Heirloom Weapon, 4 Improved & Greater Trip, 2 enhancement (+1 leveraging weapon), 2 luck (dueling (PSFG) weapon), 1 haste, 1 size)
Glaive Bull Rush CMB +34/+34/+29/+24 (11 bab, 6 dex, 4 maneuver mastery, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 Weapon Focus, 4 Improved & Greater Bull Rush, 2 enhancement (+1 leveraging weapon), 1 haste, 1 size)
And the trip and bull rush CMBs are of course Larry's trump cards. Note that his AoOs and bull rushes triggered by trips and Improved Ki throw effectively gets a +4, and that leveraging weapon allows him to use his glaive also on bull rush attempts (adding the related bonuses also to that CMB value). So just how good is Larry? Well, here's a guideline: the average CMD value of CR 11 opponents published by Paizo is 33.9, and the highest is 49. So pretty darn good!

Space 10x10'; Reach 25' (10 Large size natural reach, 10 reach weapon, 5 long arm)



Damn, RL calling. But I'll edit this post and add the last details as soon as I have the time, and I'll be happy to post the outline of a more high-op trip + dirty trick build if you're interested.

EDIT: Now I believe I've fixed the errors and made the proper additions to Larry, which made him quite a bit more competent. /EDIT

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, and before I forget again, here's a quick build outline which hopefully give you a few tips and some inspiration:
That's a great example. I've played a similar (but str-based) build that uses monk levels to get Improved Ki Throw on-line as early as possible, because throwing enemies into other enemies is just hilarious (and as it turns out, also very effective).

A dip in cleric or inquisitor with the Plant domain lets you enlarge yourself as a swift action, which is great for a build like this. Then again I rather like your swashbuckler approach, parry & riposte is higly useful.

[upho]

That's a great example. I've played a similar (but str-based) build that uses monk levels to get Improved Ki Throw on-line as early as possible, because throwing enemies into other enemies is just hilarious (and as it turns out, also very effective).Totally agree; Improved Ki Throw is just so much fun. And yeah, monk levels can help get this going earlier (although you do miss a few fighter goodies of course).


A dip in cleric or inquisitor with the Plant domain lets you enlarge yourself as a swift action, which is great for a build like this.Definitely. From a pure optimization perspective, I think just the easy wand use alone makes especially a cleric dip superior to the route Larry takes, and the Plant domain hulk-out power just makes it even more so. And 4 or 8 levels of (Primalist) Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy or Urban bloodrager with the Aberrant bloodline would of course also rock hard, especially with a monk dip and dirty trick Ascetic Strike + Cloak and Dagger shenanigans.


Then again I rather like your swashbuckler approach, parry & riposte is higly useful.I also like it; it just feels so right for this type of Dex build, without being overly powerful. And speaking of, I also thought it best to hold back on the more high-op stuff for Larry, considering the seeming power level of this game.

[Alistaroc]

The following details a sorta mid-op trip fighter-based defender with the swashbuckler dip we've talked about. Larry is a relatively straight-forward build which simply aims for the Vicious Stomp and Ki Throw feats to trip and hurl enemies into each other for some serious mass control. (This includes values from pretty standard items and a few buffs for this kind of build, but nothing unique or fancy.)

BASICS
Azata-Blooded Aasimar Swashbuckler 1, Fighter (Lore Warden) 10
CG Large humanoid (human) outsider (native)

Ability Scores (20-point buy)
Str 13 9 base, 2 enhancement (belt), 2 size (enlarge person)
Dex 22 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 4 enhancement (belt), -2 size (enlarge person)
Con 16 14 base, 2 enhancement (belt)
Int 9 7 base, 2 enhancement (headband)
Wis 16 14 base, 2 enhancement (headband)
Cha 18 14 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement (headband)

Alternate Racial Trait Scion of Humanity
Traits Avid Reader, Deathtouched, Heirloom Weapon
Drawback Meticulous (–2 penalty on untrained skills)


LEVEL PROGRESSION


Level
Class
Notable Features
Feats
Comments


1
Swashbuckler 1
Opportune Parry and Riposte, swashbuckler finesse
Bladed Brush, Weapon Focus (glaive)B
Basic Dex-based opportune buckling and swashing...


2
Fighter 1
Bonus feat
Combat ReflexesB
...with a reach weapon!


3
Fighter 2
Bonus feats
Combat ExpertiseB, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed StrikeB
The basic trip defender combo is now in place. Thankfully, Larry has swashbuckler finesse and therefore no need of Int 13 for feats relying on Combat Expertise.


4
Fighter 3
Maneuver mastery
-
Larry starts getting his Lore Warden CMB bonus.


5
Fighter 4
Bonus feat
Ki Throw, Vicious StompB
Larry's AoO fiesta gets going with Vicious AoOs and some very nifty repositioning via Ki Throw.


6
Fighter 5
Weapon training
-
Access to advanced weapon training options is nice for later levels.


7
Fighter 6
Bonus feat
Greater TripB, Power Attack
Larry's AoO fiesta continues with 2 AoOs triggered per trip success. There's unfortunately no easy way around Power Attack, which is needed for Improved Bull Rush, which in turn is needed for Improved Ki Throw. :smallsigh: Thankfully Power Attack grants Larry a bit of useful combat versatility.


8
Fighter 7
Know thy enemy
-
-


9
Fighter 8
Bonus feat
Improved Bull RushB, Improved Ki Throw
Now the trip fiesta really gets going with some serious crowd control via Improved Ki Throw, allowing Larry to trip multiple enemies per attack and keep them close.


10
Fighter 9
Advanced weapon training: Fighter's Tactics
-
With Greater Bull Rush and Paired Opportunists the next level, Larry can grant both his allies and himself even more AoOs!


11
Fighter 10
Bonus feat
Greater Bull RushB, Paired Opportunists
And finally Larry's AoO fiesta reaches its peak!.



EXAMPLE COMBAT VALUES
My comments in red.

Initiative +7 (6 dex, 1 competence (dusty rose prism))
Senses darkvision 60'; Perception +22 (3 class, 3 wis, 11 ranks, 5 competence (Eyes of the Eagle))

Defense
AC 30, touch 18, flat-footed 22 (5 armor, 3 armor enhancement, 1 natural, 1 shield, 2 shield enhancement, 6 dex, 2 deflection, 1 dodge, -1 size
HP 108 (10 swashbuckler 1st level, 10d10 fighter, 33 con, 10 favored class)
Fort +14 (3 con, 7 fighter, 3 resistance, 1 competence (pale green prism))
Ref +16 (6 dex, 2 swashbuckler, 3 fighter, 3 resistance, 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 haste)
Will +10 (+12 vs mind-affecting) (3 wis, 3 fighter, 3 resistance, 1 competence (pale green prism))
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
All these are decent or better, with the exception of Will which is barely acceptable at this level. But thankfully Larry gets a bit of help from his Deathless trait against many of the most dangerous related effects.

Offense
Glaive Attack +23/+23/+18/+13 (11 bab, 6 dex, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 Weapon Focus, 1 enhancement, 1 haste, -1 size)
Glaive Damage 2d8+6 (2d8+15 with Power Attack) (2d8 large glaive, 1 str, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 enhancement)
Glaive Trip CMB +38/+38/+33/+28 (11 bab, 6 dex, 4 maneuver mastery, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 Weapon Focus, 2 Heirloom Weapon, 4 Improved & Greater Trip, 2 enhancement (+1 leveraging weapon), 2 luck (dueling (PSFG) weapon), 1 haste, 1 size)
Glaive Bull Rush CMB +34/+34/+29/+24 (11 bab, 6 dex, 4 maneuver mastery, 4 weapon training & gloves of dueling, 1 Weapon Focus, 4 Improved & Greater Bull Rush, 2 enhancement (+1 leveraging weapon), 1 haste, 1 size)
And the trip and bull rush CMBs are of course Larry's trump cards. Note that his AoOs and bull rushes triggered by trips and Improved Ki throw effectively gets a +4, and that leveraging weapon allows him to use his glaive also on bull rush attempts (adding the related bonuses also to that CMB value). So just how good is Larry? Well, here's a guideline: the average CMD value of CR 11 opponents published by Paizo is 33.9, and the highest is 49. So pretty darn good!

Space 10x10'; Reach 25' (10 Large size natural reach, 10 reach weapon, 5 long arm)

Thank you so much! This is a really fun looking build! I'll run it by the party! My one question would be how you got the feats at Levels 1 and 3; Swashbuckler doesn't get a bonus feat at Level 1, and at Level 3, Fighter gives 1 and Level gives 1, I just don't know how you got 3 feats instead of 2.

[upho]

Thank you so much! This is a really fun looking build! I'll run it by the party!You're welcome! If you intend to follow a route close to Larry, be sure the GM and the other players understand that this is actually more powerful than your barbarian, but in a very different manner. Also note that basically nothing besides perhaps a high Dex and Cha, the class combo and the feats are vital; everything else you can change as you like without affecting the combat effectiveness much at all.


My one question would be how you got the feats at Levels 1 and 3; Swashbuckler doesn't get a bonus feat at Level 1, and at Level 3, Fighter gives 1 and Level gives 1, I just don't know how you got 3 feats instead of 2.Oh noes! I messed up and confused myself with too much cutting and pasting and changing his race from human it seems... :smallredface: So yeah, Larry should have one less feat at level 1 unless he switches back to human.

But level 3 is actually correct; 1 regular feat, 1 fighter bonus feat (fighter level 2) and Combat Expertise as bonus feat replacing bravery 1 (Lore Warden). So unless he goes back to human and suffers -2 Cha, (which can result in one less Opportune Parry per day), it also means no Paired Opportunists, which in turn also means that Fighter's Tactics isn't the best choice of AWT (unless of course you can get a training weapon or a COWPIS to get Weapon Focus). All things considered, I actually think human is a better choice for this kind of build. I'll fix.