Magic Genetics

[ZorroGames]

Yes, much more complicated than this in real life.

Two Half-Elves.

4 children.

Possible combinations?

1 Elf??
2 Half Elves?
1 Human?

Just how do you perceive the simplified genetics of two half-Elves in matters of reproduction assuming it is not a “Mule” situation?

I prefer the “Mule” solution, sterile, but many Fantasy storylines assume otherwise.

Can Half-Elf parents give birth to Humans or Elves? Or just more Half-Elves?

Edit: No Mountain Dwarfs were involved with this post. 😉🤪🙃🧐🤔😲

[clash]

I think technically a child of 2 half-elf parents would be considered a half elf culturally no matter what they look like.

Genetically it should be possible to get a human or an elf from 2 half-elf parents although it is far more likely to get a split of some percent elf and some percent human.

25% human/75% elf
40/60
50/50
65/35
98/2

There are far more possibilities in something that is part of each then genetics perfectly resembling a human or an elf.

[hymer]

All the official fluff I've come across makes two half-elves have half-elf offspring together. I agree that the 'mule' solution is potentially intriguing (though prone to overuse). I would also say that there is a lot more potential drama in half-elves having a high percentage risk of being or becoming sterile.

An old GM of mine was of the opinion that half-elves was anyone with between 1/32 (I think it was) and 1/2 elf blood. More than half and the elvish genes inevitably take over and kick the human ones out of the pool.

[ZorroGames]

All the official fluff I've come across makes two half-elves have half-elf offspring together. I agree that the 'mule' solution is potentially intriguing (though prone to overuse). I would also say that there is a lot more potential drama in half-elves having a high percentage risk of being or becoming sterile.

An old GM of mine was of the opinion that half-elves was anyone with between 1/32 (I think it was) and 1/2 elf blood. More than half and the elvish genes inevitably take over and kick the human ones out of the pool.

That would account for the high number of half Elf PCs in our AL games.

[ZorroGames]

Come to think of it, that (sterility) may be why some many Half Elf Bards grab the playboy/loose woman roles in the games I have seen. Not to mention, there was one “attempts to seduce anyone and everyone” PC that I once had to endure as a player. At an AL table with a preteen and his mother. 🤯🙄

[Sigreid]

The old answer, in official content, was 2 half elves make half elves. Half elf+human makes human. Half elf + elf = elf. This was published in the 80's in the Forgotten Realms boxed set in the section describing a majority half elf town stays that way.

[Unoriginal]

According to the Xanathar's, rolling 1d8:

1-5: half-elf has one elf and one human parents.

6: half-elf has one elf and one half-elf parents.

7: half-elf has one human and one half-elf parents.

8: half-elf has two half-elves as parents.

[Sigreid]

According to the Xanathar's, rolling 1d8:

1-5: half-elf has one elf and one human parents.

6: half-elf has one elf and one half-elf parents.

7: half-elf has one human and one half-elf parents.

8: half-elf has two half-elves as parents.

Not the first thing they've changed from the ancient lore.

[ZorroGames]

According to the Xanathar's, rolling 1d8:

1-5: half-elf has one elf and one human parents.

6: half-elf has one elf and one half-elf parents.

7: half-elf has one human and one half-elf parents.

8: half-elf has two half-elves as parents.

Yes, I remember that but I was thinking next generation. Toss out some implications as how that effects their children. Have not thought how culturally or genetically that would effect the odds for the next generation.

[hamishspence]

The concept of half-elves with only one elven ancestor, some way back (so, 1/32 elf) was present in D&D long before 5e. In 3e, half-drow "Crinti" in Dambrath, could be as little as 1/32 drow and still count as Crinti.

[jjordan]

Whatever works best for you. The mule scenario works well in some settings. I prefer to use a variable grade and let the player determine the percentage of parentage and how they look and identify. In my current setting this would have significant cultural effects that would have roleplay repercussions.

[Man_Over_Game]

According to the Xanathar's, rolling 1d8:

1-5: half-elf has one elf and one human parents.

6: half-elf has one elf and one half-elf parents.

7: half-elf has one human and one half-elf parents.

8: half-elf has two half-elves as parents.

So roughly you need to be 1/4-3/4 of Elf and Human. I could kinda see that.

Compared to what Sigried added, this'd mean that Half-Elves could be a full-fledged culture rather than a one-off mutation. You could expect a "Half-Elf District" of town, or a bar that caters mostly to half-elves. You could probably even expect a village, but I'm not sure how elves and humans could be long-term mates in a village with their drastic lifespan differences.

[PhoenixPhyre]

My setting uses the following "definition" of half-elves:

Do you look predominantly human? You're human.
Do you look entirely elven (high elves are pickier than wood elves, being racist jerks :smallwink:)? You're elven.
Are you noticeably elven, but also noticeably not-elven? You're a half elf.

Thus it's a spectrum of traits, not a single-gene (not that there really are genes in my setting, but...), Mendelian trait.

Different groups have different cultures. A few of them, acting as sub-races for the half-elf race:

Earth-kin: elf (any) + one sub-race of humans, human dominant (but enough elf to show). Culturally basically like the surrounding humans.

Sharp-ear: high elf + that same sub-race, elf dominant. Tend to either reject their elven blood (and become outcasts) or try to elf harder than the elves.

Travellers: wood elf + that same sub-race, elf dominant. Don't really fit in--too much wanderlust for their very settled human kin, too human for the clan-focused wood elves of the region. Tend to wander around in groups, providing labor, etc. Some similarities to Roma culture, without a lot of the negative stereotypes.

Scaled: a true-breeding group. Everyone in that nation has some high-elven ancestry, but those in whom it resurfaces strongly are considered half-elves (and have minorly increased social standing).

Twilight: wood elves + a different sub-race of humans, either dominant. Culturally very similar to the humans and wood elves in that integrated society. Some predict that within a few generations the two will have completely interbred.

[noob]

Half elves are in fact daelkyr like all the other humanoids.

[Sigreid]

So roughly you need to be 1/4-3/4 of Elf and Human. I could kinda see that.

Compared to what Sigried added, this'd mean that Half-Elves could be a full-fledged culture rather than a one-off mutation. You could expect a "Half-Elf District" of town, or a bar that caters mostly to half-elves. You could probably even expect a village, but I'm not sure how elves and humans could be long-term mates in a village with their drastic lifespan differences.

Well, with a certain mindset a half elf or elf could see a human lover as dying about when you were getting bored of them anyway...

[Asmotherion]

i believe 2 half elves give birth to a half elf

Half elf and elf 25/75 chance to give birth to a Half Elf or an Elf with some human traits (game wise an elf).

Half elf and human 25/75 chance to birth a Half Elf/Human with slight elven traits (such as pointier ears than average for humans... Game wise a human).

This becomes less weird considering some humanoid bloodlines have Dragon Ancestors.

You can effectivelly have a human meet his elven ancestor who seems about his age or younger eventhough they have roughly 200 years and 5-6 generations between them.

[MoiMagnus]

Here are the different interpretations of D&D genetics I've encountered:

1) Genetics works with % of each race. Your % is the average of the % of your 2 parents, with no randomness involved. So if 7/8 or your great parents are pure elves, and the last one is human, you are 87.5% elf and 12.5% human. More than 75% is considered as elf for most purposes.

2) Genetic magical precedence. Some gene magically take the precedence over others, and ensure to be passed to at least one heirs, if not all of them. That's how 100 generations later, the fact that your descend from an angel is still relevant. The race of the child is a competition of power between the genes, and will most likely give the same result for all the child between two persons.

3) Real world genetics, with human ancestors. Every race compatible with humans is in fact part of the human species. Differences between elves and humans inherited from a time where humanity reach genetic engineering.

4) Children are born from the race of their mother, no exception without magical aid. They still inherit few minor traits from their father. So half-elves are only a cultural thing. (And a conspiracy, since in this setting, the "half-elves" aristocracy was exclusively constituted of shape-shifting metallic dragons)

[Damon_Tor]

Yes, much more complicated than this in real life.

Two Half-Elves.

4 children.

Possible combinations?

1 Elf??
2 Half Elves?
1 Human?

Just how do you perceive the simplified genetics of two half-Elves in matters of reproduction assuming it is not a “Mule” situation?

I prefer the “Mule” solution, sterile, but many Fantasy storylines assume otherwise.

Can Half-Elf parents give birth to Humans or Elves? Or just more Half-Elves?

Edit: No Mountain Dwarfs were involved with this post. 😉🤪🙃🧐🤔😲

My wife is a dog breeder, so here's what I know about how this works based on that second-hand experience and an above average understanding of genetics:

The first generation of any hybrid pairing has predictable traits assuming both parents come from pure stock. We'll use a Labrador/Poodle mix as an example: a first generation hybrid will have every chromosome pair as a perfect cross: every pair is one Labrador chromosome and one Poodle chromosome, reliably. So the poodle's hypo-allergenic hair, a dominant trait, will always be present in the child of a Labrador and a Poodle. We'll call this genotype "lP", the lower case "l" signifying a recessive trait and the upper case "P" signifying a dominant trait. (This is a simplification, because more than one chromosome is usually involved in traits like this, but you'll get the idea)

To take you back to middle school, the Punnett square diagram for this cross looks like this:



Parents
l
l


P
lP
lP


P
lP
lP



But when you take two of these hybrids and breed them together to create a second generation hybrid, here's your square:



Parents
l
P


l
ll
lP


P
lP
PP



Oops! Suddenly 25% of your offspring don't have the trait you want, those who have the "ll" genotype. Now consider that you aren't looking for just this one trait (if you were, you'd just breed poodles) there are other traits you want as well, and if every offspring has a 25% to be missing a given trait, suddenly you're left with low odds that any of the second generation offspring having all your desired traits. It's further complicated by the fact that, as mentioned above, many traits rely on several genes spread across several different chromosomes.

One can assume that half-elves work the same way, assuming genetics work the same way in the setting. The first generation, with one elf parent and one human parent, reliably have the "half-elf" traits. But suddenly when two half-elves create offspring, it becomes a dice roll. Their children are still very likely to have a mix of traits (a child getting an entirely elf or entirely human genome is possible, but would be a result akin to getting "heads" on 46 coin tosses in a row) but which traits they have would be unpredictable, and there's no guarantee the results would be good. For example, they might get the human genes for dexterity while getting the elf genes for adaptability, all of their weaknesses, none of their strengths. Or the opposite might occur. It's a dice roll.

What is hybrid vigor, and why does it matter?
As a subsection here, I'll cover the concept of hybrid vigor, and why it's relevant to the discussion. As populations diverge from each other, they accrue different mutations in their genome, some beneficial, some deleterious. Natural selection will tend to weed out the harmful mutations while propagating the beneficial ones, while the irrelevant mutations just float around by chance. The harmful mutations that do survive will tend to be recessive (they survive in the population by "hiding" in carriers who don't express the trait because they only carry 1 copy) while beneficial mutations offer the most benefit and thus spread the fastest if they are dominant.

An example of an irrelevant mutation would be a critical gene moving from one chromosome to another, but remaining in effect. For a few generations you'd have a problem where some children could be born without the gene and some are born with two copies (which may also be harmful depending on the gene) but eventually the gene might find itself permanently in a new location within one population while other populations have it in another location.

These two factors together are what cause a first generation hybrid between two breeds to have high levels of relative fitness: let's say both breeds have 100 unique negative mutations, 80 of which are recessive, and 100 unique positive mutations, 80 of which are dominant. Many of these are tiny differences we don't even notice except in aggregate. Many of the positive traits are simply there to cancel out the negative traits.

The first generation offspring from this pairing will have exactly one copy of all of these mutations, but they will reliably express the dominant mutations and not the recessive ones. This means they wind up expressing just 40 negative traits (though they carry 200) and 160 positive traits (but they also carry 200 of these). The result is, reliably, an individual more fit than either parent: most of their strengths, few of their weaknesses.

But once you repeat the process and rebreed two of these individuals you're rolling those dice all over again and you lose the advantage of that vigor. Worse, you run the risk of expressing negative traits NEITHER parent breed shows because those traits are compensated for and canceled out elsewhere in the genome of that breed, but the second generation hybrid has no guarantee they'll get both the negative trait and the positive trait that shuts that gene down. And more bad news: because traits are spread out across many chromosomes you get things like size-mismatching. There are plenty of dog breeds that were deliberately selected for mismatched sizes on body parts because humans thought they looked neat. For example, English Bulldogs have genes for skull size from a larger ancestral breed, but the hips of a smaller ancetral breed. The result: English bulldogs cannot give live birth, all births of that breed must be surgical. While this particular mismatch of traits was deliberate, such a thing can happen naturally as well when two distant enough populations interbreed.

When too many of these "mismatched" traits accrue between population, second generations become impossible even though the first generations appear to be fitter than their parents: Ligers are larger and stronger than Lions or Tigers, Mules are larger and stronger than Horses or Donkeys, but neither can (usually) breed again. At this point, speciation has occurred, and the two populations can be considered distinct species.

[Max_Killjoy]

IMO, the child of two half-elves would be a half-elf.

For more complicated ancestries, just decide between the GM and player which "race" is closest to what the player has in mind, or mix-match as seems balanced.

[Damon_Tor]

While we can point to mules and ligers as expressing greater strength and overall health compared to their parents, it's worthwhile noting that those aren't necessarily the traits in which hybrid vigor might result. Indeed, any trait or category of traits which has been strongly selected for since the divergence of the two populations will be subject to the effects of the phenomena.

Horses and donkeys have been selected for strength and endurance by humans, so those are the traits magnified by hybrid vigor. As apex predators, tigers and lions are naturally selected for size and strength as well, so again that's what we see in their hybrids. But since the advent of agriculture, a human's physical strength has largely become irrelevant to his survival and ability to attract a mate. Instead, a human's prospects of reproduction improve most signifigantly based on his social abilities... ie, his charisma.

And so we expect half-elves to have greater charisma than his parents, and lo and behold, it is so.

[Man_Over_Game]

...a human's prospects of reproduction improve most signifigantly based on his social abilities... ie, his charisma.

And so we expect half-elves to have greater charisma than his parents, and lo and behold, it is so.

Interesting point. One of the Half-elf's parents definitely seduced the other, so half-elves always have at least one charismatic parent, which implies that they're always charismatic? Makes sense, in a messed up kinda way. Now I understand why half-elf players are always trying to shag everything.

[Max_Killjoy]

Interesting point. One of the Half-elf's parents definitely seduced the other, so half-elves always have at least one charismatic parent, which implies that they're always charismatic? Makes sense, in a messed up kinda way. Now I understand why half-elf players are always trying to shag everything.

Personally, I'd think that there are quite a few other different possibilities as to the relationship between the parents, besides "one of them seduced the other" -- it's kinda narrow to assume that every half-elf is the result of a seduction / quick shag. But that's just me.

[Man_Over_Game]

Personally, I'd think that there are quite a few other different possibilities as to the relationship between the parents, besides "one of them seduced the other" -- it's kinda narrow to assume that every half-elf is the result of a seduction / quick shag. But that's just me.

That makes the most sense, considering neither the Human or the Elf parts of their lineage have any incentives to play Charismatic characters (except, maybe that Humans start with an extra language).

If parent personality/traits determined how the Half-Elf was, you'd expect the Half Elf to be slightly dexterous, slightly intelligence, and better at tools. Instead, it's the go-to Charismatic race.


That is, unless the Charisma bonus is because of their upbringing and culture rather than a racial gene that they express. But then we're getting into the whole "why aren't racial bonuses applied as backgrounds" thing, and that's a bit off topic.

[Damon_Tor]

Interesting point. One of the Half-elf's parents definitely seduced the other, so half-elves always have at least one charismatic parent, which implies that they're always charismatic? Makes sense, in a messed up kinda way. Now I understand why half-elf players are always trying to shag everything.

Even apart from "seduction" whatever that means in this context, most children are the result of someone convincing someone else to have sex with them. Sometimes that also includes a long-term commitment to one another, sometimes it doesn't, but the act of convincing the other of something, whether that's "sex right now who cares about tomorrow" or "a relationship and/or marriage" there's always some convincing happening.

In other words, charisma is the baseline human fitness test, its important for everyone*. Whether it's better to pass on your genes as a dad (focus on one committed mate, invest in the offspring) or a cad (produce as many offspring with as many mates as possible, with no investment required). Perhaps the cad produces more children, but those children are less likely to be successful and thus less likely to reproduce themselves.



*And let's not get into the times where is isn't, because let's just not.

[Man_Over_Game]

Even apart from "seduction" whatever that means in this context, most children are the result of someone convincing someone else to have sex with them. Sometimes that also includes a long-term commitment to one another, sometimes it doesn't, but the act of convincing the other of something, whether that's "sex right now who cares about tomorrow" or "a relationship and/or marriage" there's always some convincing happening.

In other words, charisma is the baseline human fitness test, its important for everyone*. Whether it's better to pass on your genes as a dad (focus on one committed mate, invest in the offspring) or a cad (produce as many offspring with as many mates as possible, with no investment required). Perhaps the cad produces more children, but those children are less likely to be successful and thus less likely to reproduce themselves.



*And let's not get into the times where is isn't, because let's just not.

And I agree with you on that, but that doesn't quite fill in the gaps as to why the two versions of Human don't include a +2 Charisma bonus, but a Human + an Elf does.

If Charisma was the universal goal of human reproducing in the 5e universe, why do Human + Human offspring have less Charisma than Human + Elf?

[Damon_Tor]

And I agree with you on that, but that doesn't quite fill in the gaps as to why the two versions of Human don't include a +2 Charisma bonus, but a Human + an Elf does.

If Charisma was the universal goal of human reproducing in the 5e universe, why do Human + Human offspring have less Charisma than Human + Elf?

For the same reason that ligers are bigger than lions or tigers, and why mules have more endurance than a horse or donkey: hybrid vigor amplifies the traits that are most strongly selected for resulting in offspring with those traits "dialed up to 11"

Also, stats are relative: all humanoids rely on charisma to breed. So humans and elves DO have high charisma as far as the animal kingdom in general is concerned, they're only average because the benchmark of "10" is set to the humanoid standard.

[Max_Killjoy]

The scientific fields of evolution and genetics as applied to humans are weeping quietly in the corner right now.

[Sigreid]

The scientific fields of evolution and genetics as applied to humans are weeping quietly in the corner right now.

There's no reason to assume genetics works in D&D like it does here, and quite a bit of evidence it doesn't.

[darknite]

Or 4 quarter-elves.

[Max_Killjoy]

There's no reason to assume genetics works in D&D like it does here, and quite a bit of evidence it doesn't.

Specifically referring to the ideas that charisma is genetic, and that human evolution has "selected for charisma". Evo psych has a lot of damage to answer for.

[Sigreid]

Specifically referring to the ideas that charisma is genetic, and that human evolution has "selected for charisma". Evo psych has a lot of damage to answer for.

Haha, ok. I got you now.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There's no reason to assume genetics works in D&D like it does here, and quite a bit of evidence it doesn't.

Yeah. There're no indications that there's anything like genes or chromosomes. Heck, there may not even be atoms or molecules, let alone cells or genes or DNA.

For me, it's all about soul-compatibility and is decidedly non-Mendelian. Things like aasimar or tiefling heritage can pop up generations later, stronger than they ever were. In fact, some human/animal hybrid races (such as Tabaxi) are created by polymorphing animals into human shape and breeding the two (either together or with regular humans). Dragonborn were created by forcibly fusing fragments of draconic souls with unborn human children (in an attempt to create super-soldiers).

[Unoriginal]

So roughly you need to be 1/4-3/4 of Elf and Human. I could kinda see that.




Note that it could be:

An elf and an human reproduce, give birth to an half-elf.

This half-elf grows up, reproduce with an human, give birth to an half-elf.

This half-elf grows up, reproduce with an human, give birth to an half-elf.

This half-elf grows up, reproduce with an human, give birth to an half-elf.

This half-elf grows up, reproduce with an human, give birth to an half-elf.

This half-elf grows up, reproduce with an human, give birth to an half-elf.

Rinse and repeat.

[Honest Tiefling]

Personally, I'd think that there are quite a few other different possibilities as to the relationship between the parents, besides "one of them seduced the other" -- it's kinda narrow to assume that every half-elf is the result of a seduction / quick shag. But that's just me.

Well, to be fair, an elf cohabiting with a human for a good 30 years is still a 'quick fling' as far as the elf is concerned. Then again, I often imagine elves being a whole lot looser on this 'monogamy' business due to their fey heritage and a long lifespan.

Personally, I thought that the charisma of half-elves was a bit of a sink or swim scenario: They are often considered outsiders in their respective communities, so the successful ones are those who learn to navigate society while being able to join it fully. Those who don't are going to be ignored, backstabbed, alone, and likely barred from various sources of training...All of which lead to quite dead adventurers. Then again, I sorta like the idea of a half-elf surviving on dexterity or strength alone, but I don't quite know how to balance that.

I mean, in many settings (and in how many people roleplay) high elves have a charisma of 'NOPE' when it comes to other races. So the half-elves sure as hell aren't getting their charisma bonus from them.

Through if any race has a claim to literally inherit charisma as a trait, it would be the tieflings, in my opinion. I mean, you could make the argument for Aasimar, but I think quite a few celestials who have boinked a human might be of the 'smite first, talk later' variety. Either way, magic could make charisma an actually inheritable trait.

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, to be fair, an elf cohabiting with a human for a good 30 years is still a 'quick fling' as far as the elf is concerned. Then again, I often imagine elves being a whole lot looser on this 'monogamy' business due to their fey heritage and a long lifespan.

Personally, I thought that the charisma of half-elves was a bit of a sink or swim scenario: They are often considered outsiders in their respective communities, so the successful ones are those who learn to navigate society while being able to join it fully. Those who don't are going to be ignored, backstabbed, alone, and likely barred from various sources of training...All of which lead to quite dead adventurers. Then again, I sorta like the idea of a half-elf surviving on dexterity or strength alone, but I don't quite know how to balance that.

I mean, in many settings (and in how many people roleplay) high elves have a charisma of 'NOPE' when it comes to other races. So the half-elves sure as hell aren't getting their charisma bonus from them.

Through if any race has a claim to literally inherit charisma as a trait, it would be the tieflings, in my opinion. I mean, you could make the argument for Aasimar, but I think quite a few celestials who have boinked a human might be of the 'smite first, talk later' variety. Either way, magic could make charisma an actually inheritable trait.

I take the same view of the half-elf CHA bonus -- it's a learned adaptation from the "typical" individual's environment growing up, not some sort of half-baked "genetics".

And if it were me DMing, I'd entertain arguments to swap it out for a pair of +1 for two other Abilities on a case-by-case basis.


Have any published settings done an actual community of half-elves who have congregated together to escape outside pressures and prejudices?

[Damon_Tor]

Specifically referring to the ideas that charisma is genetic, and that human evolution has "selected for charisma". Evo psych has a lot of damage to answer for.

In the real world "charisma" isn't measurable because charisma is subjective. In Dungeons and Dragons it's a measurable, objective phenomenon.

[Max_Killjoy]

In the real world "charisma" isn't measurable because charisma is subjective. In Dungeons and Dragons it's a measurable, objective phenomenon.

First, in the system, it's a measurable thing. Whether that means the setting is one of those parodies where all the D&D rules and mechanics are visible effects that the characters are aware of... is a different question.

Second, that doesn't really address whether the phenomenon is genetic, or whether it's simple or complex (eye color is fairly simple, "intelligence" is not), or whether it's selected for strongly enough to matter even if it is genetic.

[Constructman]

Have any published settings done an actual community of half-elves who have congregated together to escape outside pressures and prejudices?
The Khorovar of Eberron. They don't have a nation of their own, but a distinct Half-Elven cultural identity has formed as a minority within the human-dominated Five Nations. This is probably in no small part that two of the thirteen Dragonmarked Houses who each have a near-monopoly on their corners of the market are Half-Elf families: House Medani, which licenses and employs detectives and bodyguards; and House Lyrandar, which controls travel by sea and air. House Lyrandar in particular is lending financial assistance to the fledgling Elf nation of Valenar, in hopes that it can become a home for the Khorovar in the future.

[Man_Over_Game]

Personally, I thought that the charisma of half-elves was a bit of a sink or swim scenario: They are often considered outsiders in their respective communities, so the successful ones are those who learn to navigate society while being able to join it fully. Those who don't are going to be ignored, backstabbed, alone, and likely barred from various sources of training...All of which lead to quite dead adventurers. Then again, I sorta like the idea of a half-elf surviving on dexterity or strength alone, but I don't quite know how to balance that.

Start simple, and work your way up.

Replace the Charisma bonus with Dexterity. Replace the two skills with proficiency with two weapons of your choice. The extra language you choose must be a Standard Language.

I think that'd be good enough. Definitely gives off the vibe of someone who's familiar with the shady parts of town.

[Damon_Tor]

First, in the system, it's a measurable thing. Whether that means the setting is one of those parodies where all the D&D rules and mechanics are visible effects that the characters are aware of... is a different question.

Second, that doesn't really address whether the phenomenon is genetic, or whether it's simple or complex (eye color is fairly simple, "intelligence" is not), or whether it's selected for strongly enough to matter even if it is genetic.

Whether its measurable to the characters in game is irrelevant. We're not having this discussion in-character.

Second, the title of the thread is "Magic Genetics". There are certain assumptions in play when you click the link. And I address the complexity issue.

[noob]

I am quite sure there is only two species in dnd: dwarves and non dwarves.(there is no half dwarf(except for the creation of a god of madness and so it is not through reproduction) but for everything else there is half dragon/ whatever of it thus meaning that they are all of the same specie)

[Max_Killjoy]

Whether its measurable to the characters in game is irrelevant. We're not having this discussion in-character.

Second, the title of the thread is "Magic Genetics". There are certain assumptions in play when you click the link. And I address the complexity issue.


No one said we were discussing it in-character -- the question is whether "Charisma" is a real thing in-setting (that is in the "fictional world") or purely a game-mechanical abstraction or "mapping" of more complicated in-setting factors.

Your overall argument -- that human behavior and complex mental characteristics are simplistically genetic, such that "charisma" works like liger size or mule endurance, and that has been your argument as presented here so far -- rests in the blatant fallacies of evolutionary psychology.

[noob]

Maybe charisma is just a number associated to people by dice and arbitrary judgements of creatures from another world?
I mean charisma is neither an aspect of your appearance nor is it an aspect of your aptitude at interacting socially nor is it just the force of personality nor the will-force of the individual(you can not convince a lot of people with just force of personality)
As far as I know charisma is only a number for mechanics and nothing logical in any way at all.

Meanwhile dnd intelligence having no effect on most things that would be affected by real life intelligence probably means dnd intelligence is not like real life intelligence.(or they should add a lot more int based skills for making dnd intelligence comparable to real life one(and also not have int added directly but rather have int allow to learn int skills quicker and the possibility to specialize more in some int skills))

as far as we know dnd intelligence is just specifically being better at "insert current int skill list" than normal for your level.

[Sigreid]

Have any published settings done an actual community of half-elves who have congregated together to escape outside pressures and prejudices?

As I said in an earlier post, FR grey box for AD&D had a town with second, third and 4th generation half elves as two half elves breed true.

That was like 30 or so years ago so who knows what the current thinking at WoTC is.

[Max_Killjoy]

As I said in an earlier post, FR grey box for AD&D had a town with second, third and 4th generation half elves as two half elves breed true.

That was like 30 or so years ago so who knows what the current thinking at WoTC is.

Thanks, sorry I missed that post. :smallsmile:

[Sigreid]

Thanks, sorry I missed that post. :smallsmile:

In 2+ pages of posts you missed one? HOW DARE YOU! :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

The 2nd edition PHB made the rules explicit:

The relationship between elf, human, and half-elf is defined as follows: 1) Anyone with both elven and human ancestors is either a human or a half-elf (elves have only elven ancestors). 2) If there are more human ancestors than elven, the person is human; if there are equal numbers or more elves, the person is half-elven.

Meanwhile, the original lore example of half-elves were the brothers Elrond and Elros, from Tolkien's works. Their parents were Eärendil, who was 1/2 elf and 1/2 human, and Elwing, who was 5/8 elf, 1/4 human, 1/8 angel, making the two brothers 9/16 elf, 3/8 human, 1/16 angel. And the result of that was that they got to choose which they counted as, and Elrond chose elf while Elros chose human.

[ZorroGames]

The 2nd edition PHB made the rules explicit:


Meanwhile, the original lore example of half-elves were the brothers Elrond and Elros, from Tolkien's works. Their parents were Eärendil, who was 1/2 elf and 1/2 human, and Elwing, who was 5/8 elf, 1/4 human, 1/8 angel, making the two brothers 9/16 elf, 3/8 human, 1/16 angel. And the result of that was that they got to choose which they counted as, and Elrond chose elf while Elros chose human.

The reason that I titled the thread Magic Genetics was the low number of known half-Elf characters in Tolkien. D&D has a completely set(s) of assumptions about half-Elf characters.