Bladesinger/AT

[nickl_2000]

Can an AT/Bladesinger 2 wield a hand crossbow or sling while using bladesong? It's not attacking with two hands, so I don't see why not. Is there something I'm missing?



Also, I just realized that Bladesinger level 2 training in War and Song gives you the ability to get a whip as a rogue weapon for sneak attacking from a distance :smallbiggrin:

[Man_Over_Game]

Can an AT/Bladesinger 2 wield a hand crossbow or sling while using bladesong? It's not attacking with two hands, so I don't see why not. Is there something I'm missing?



Also, I just realized that Bladesinger level 2 training in War and Song gives you the ability to get a whip as a rogue weapon for sneak attacking from a distance :smallbiggrin:

Depends on whether your DM counts as the Ammunition trait requiring you to have a free hand also counts as "you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon".

The Whip is an excellent choice, but you will need Spell Sniper if you want to use a SCAG cantrip with Reach.

[nickl_2000]

Depends on whether your DM counts as the Ammunition trait requiring you to have a free hand also counts as "you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon".

The Whip is an excellent choice, but you will need Spell Sniper if you want to use a SCAG cantrip with Reach.

Note: The sling doesn't have the loading property. It's only ammunition (range 30/120).

I'm not entirely against spell sniper on a AT/Bladesinger, although it wouldn't be the best. Still having the ability to sneak attack while not being next to a target could be very useful.

[Man_Over_Game]

Note: The sling doesn't have the loading property. It's only ammunition (range 30/120).

I'm not entirely against spell sniper on a AT/Bladesinger, although it wouldn't be the best. Still having the ability to sneak attack while not being next to a target could be very useful.

Ammunition was updated in an errata to include this information regarding Ammunition: "Loading a one-handed weapon requires a free hand."

So even a Sling requires a free hand to reload its ammunition.

[Klorox]

Also, I just realized that Bladesinger level 2 training in War and Song gives you the ability to get a whip as a rogue weapon for sneak attacking from a distance :smallbiggrin:

Yooooooooo!

This is amazing. I love it.

I don’t have much experience with rogues, but I just started playing one.

What advantages would using a whip really give, since I can already disengage as a bonus action?

This may be a silly question for the veterans, sorry about that.

[Man_Over_Game]

One particular gripe I have about the whip is that you end up having a lot of redundant features. Between Cunning Action, your Swashbuckler Disengage attacking, and the Whip, you have 3 things that all accomplish the same thing. Like telling the Swashbuckler to pick up the Mobile feat.

Arcane Trickster, on the other hand, gets you more spell slots and enhances your non-combat utility. Scout will allow you to use your enhanced mobility to dance around the battlefield with ease when enemies try to gang up on you.

I get that the ideal of landing sneak attacks without allies adjacent to your target is great, but how often will that actually be relevant (vs. casting a spell for that turn instead)?

[Snowbluff]

One particular gripe I have about the whip is that you end up having a lot of redundant features. Between Cunning Action, your Swashbuckler Disengage attacking, and the Whip, you have 3 things that all accomplish the same thing. Like telling the Swashbuckler to pick up the Mobile feat.

Arcane Trickster, on the other hand, gets you more spell slots and enhances your non-combat utility. Scout will allow you to use your enhanced mobility to dance around the battlefield with ease when enemies try to gang up on you.

I get that the ideal of landing sneak attacks without allies adjacent to your target is great, but how often will that actually be relevant (vs. casting a spell for that turn instead)?

Is the solution mastermind, then? :smalltongue:

Personally, AT is still my fave. Having access to magical ambush + wizard items (think Staff of Power and Staff of the Magi, each loaded with a large number of spells) is a potent combination.

[Man_Over_Game]

Is the solution mastermind, then? :smalltongue:

Personally, AT is still my fave. Having access to magical ambush + wizard items (think Staff of Power and Staff of the Magi, each loaded with a large number of spells) is a potent combination.

Mastermind would actually work rather well! The problem is, between using your Action and spending your Bonus Action, you don't have very much that being a Wizard is really necessary for. Something like Flaming Sphere would conflict with your Mastermind Help. You can't afford to throw your Shadow Blade, because you have to spend your Bonus Action to recall it. You aren't left with many Concentration spells that you'd want to use at the same time that you're attacking that don't use up a Bonus Action. You don't want to be a Rogue OR a Wizard, you want to be both, and having more stuff compete with the Bonus Action makes combining both aspects more and more difficult. You could use Haste, I guess?

At least with Arcane Trickster, your Bonus Action isn't used very regularly in combat scenarios until much later, and the Scout doesn't care at all about the Bonus Action, so you can afford to use most of your Bonus Action-using spells almost all of the time.

[nickl_2000]

Yooooooooo!

This is amazing. I love it.

I don’t have much experience with rogues, but I just started playing one.

What advantages would using a whip really give, since I can already disengage as a bonus action?

This may be a silly question for the veterans, sorry about that.

There are a few advantages that I see.
1) you don't need to disengage, you can use bonus action to give our dash to get a long ways away (or mage hand for ATS)
2) you can attack over an ally in tight spaces
3) you make AoOs when they leave a 10 ft radius, where some enemies won't know that you can do that.
4) you can also wield a whip in one hand and rapier in another, giving you yet another option for your bonus action and AoOs from either 5 feet or 10 feet.


For me it's all about action economy. Since you don't need to disengage, it frees up that bonus action for spell effects or other things.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

There are a few advantages that I see.
1) you don't need to disengage, you can use bonus action to give our dash to get a long ways away (or mage hand for ATS)
2) you can attack over an ally in tight spaces
3) you make AoOs when they leave a 10 ft radius, where some enemies won't know that you can do that.
4) you can also wield a whip in one hand and rapier in another, giving you yet another option for your bonus action and AoOs from either 5 feet or 10 feet.


For me it's all about action economy. Since you don't need to disengage, it frees up that bonus action for spell effects or other things.

1. With bladesong you're going to have a minimum of 40 movement. Attacking then disengaging is the bread and butter of rogues. And moving your mage hand as an arcane trickster in combat is only useful if you can use it to give you the help action, but this takes away your dual wielding bonus action attack.
2. You can already attack through an ally in tight spaces. You can move into their space as difficult terrain, attack, then move back.
3. You can, but whips on rogues are only good if you use sentinel (off-turn sneak attack damage) But the whip damage is garbage, and you're very limited in magic item choice. Paired with warcaster and spell sniper you can booming blade for your attack.
4. You cannot wield a rapier in one hand and whip in the other unless you have the dual-wielder feat. This allows you to draw and stow 2 weapons per turn and dual wield 2 weapons that don't have the light property. You have to double up on feats with this and warcaster if you want to be able to cast spells as a bladesinger/AT.

The main problems with this build is it makes you so feat dependent that you miss out on ASIs (if you do point buy) and you end up having competing reaction needs.

I would suggest reading this thread for ideas.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549828-Magique-Filou-The-Arcane-Trickster-s-Guide&highlight=magique

[Snowbluff]

1. With bladesong you're going to have a minimum of 40 movement. Attacking then disengaging is the bread and butter of rogues. And moving your mage hand as an arcane trickster in combat is only useful if you can use it to give you the help action, but this takes away your dual wielding bonus action attack.
2. You can already attack through an ally in tight spaces. You can move into their space as difficult terrain, attack, then move back.
3. You can, but whips on rogues are only good if you use sentinel (off-turn sneak attack damage) But the whip damage is garbage, and you're very limited in magic item choice. Paired with warcaster and spell sniper you can booming blade for your attack.
4. You cannot wield a rapier in one hand and whip in the other unless you have the dual-wielder feat. This allows you to draw and stow 2 weapons per turn and dual wield 2 weapons that don't have the light property. You have to double up on feats with this and warcaster if you want to be able to cast spells as a bladesinger/AT.

The main problems with this build is it makes you so feat dependent that you miss out on ASIs (if you do point buy) and you end up having competing reaction needs.

I would suggest reading this thread for ideas.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549828-Magique-Filou-The-Arcane-Trickster-s-Guide&highlight=magique
4. You can hold 2 weapons. The text for TWF only applies when attacking using an ttack action + bonus action. If you're using the two weapons separately it's fine. However, TWF doesn't work with bladesinging.

Also rogues do get additional ASI.

[Man_Over_Game]

1. With bladesong you're going to have a minimum of 40 movement. Attacking then disengaging is the bread and butter of rogues. And moving your mage hand as an arcane trickster in combat is only useful if you can use it to give you the help action, but this takes away your dual wielding bonus action attack.
2. You can already attack through an ally in tight spaces. You can move into their space as difficult terrain, attack, then move back.
3. You can, but whips on rogues are only good if you use sentinel (off-turn sneak attack damage) But the whip damage is garbage, and you're very limited in magic item choice. Paired with warcaster and spell sniper you can booming blade for your attack.
4. You cannot wield a rapier in one hand and whip in the other unless you have the dual-wielder feat. This allows you to draw and stow 2 weapons per turn and dual wield 2 weapons that don't have the light property. You have to double up on feats with this and warcaster if you want to be able to cast spells as a bladesinger/AT.

The main problems with this build is it makes you so feat dependent that you miss out on ASIs (if you do point buy) and you end up having competing reaction needs.

I would suggest reading this thread for ideas.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549828-Magique-Filou-The-Arcane-Trickster-s-Guide&highlight=magique





In regards to #2: "The intent is that you can't willingly end your move—any part of it—in another creature's space (PH, 191)" (https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/636294197226528769?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw). Attacking through an ally's space is subject to the Cover rules, so the target would get +2 AC against your attack.

In regards to #3: I don't think the damage on the Whip is a major concern to a Rogue. The change from Rapier to Whip is a 2 damage per round difference, compared to the damage on the modifier, sneak attack, and the reliability of reach. Assuming a level 5 Rogue, a +3 modifier, you're looking at a 12% decrease in damage for reach. I'd say that's worth it, as the difference between a Fighter using a Halberd vs. a Great Axe with these stats is also 12%.

In regards to #4, I don't think it is correct. I think, officially, you only need Dual Wield to TWF with two non-light weapons. But he's not doing that. There's nothing stopping you from holding two weapons and only attacking with one of them as normal.

I do agree with you on #1, though.

[Rukelnikov]

4. You can hold 2 weapons. The text for TWF only applies when attacking using an ttack action + bonus action. If you're using the two weapons separately it's fine. However, TWF doesn't work with bladesinging.

Also rogues do get additional ASI.

You can TWF with Bladesong, one of the many changes to lore.

[nickl_2000]

For #1 it is great for later on, but even early on you can use it to pick the pocket of enemies. Potentially stealing potions or back up weapons as a bonus action. Or you can hide for advantage in the next combat.

Sure, you probably don't need it and would still be using disengage much of the time, but why it is a problem to have the option? What other weapon would you take in a AT/Bladesinger multiclass anyways? It has to be one handed and melee, and you get pretty much all the other finesse weapons.