Battlefield control against a high level, highly equipped party

[King of Nowhere]

Running a high level campaign (level 18, but with enough buffs and artifacts that it can be effectively considered low epic, except for no epic spells), I want to make a villain specialized in battlefield control as a suppporter of the main villain

Problem is, all the spells that are generally considered good battlefield control fall flat against a high level party. Invisibility and illusions are negated by true sight (which all the party has permanently). mass hold person, solid fog, black ttentacles and all that are countered by freedom of movement, something else that the party has all the time. forcecage and similar spells can easily be bypassed, as everyone has several single-use teleportation; I'm not sure, but they may even have the quickened version. And at least one of them has a rod of cancellation to take down forcecages and stuff. The wizard can cast quickened disintegrate otherwise.

What kind of battlefield control can be done against such a party? Help me make an interesting encounter.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always try an optimized changeling double-specialist illusionist/transmuter (Races of Eberron) wizard 5/shadowcraft mage (Races of Stone)/spell sovereign (Dragon #357)/master specialist (Complete Mage). A mix of (realer than real) illusions, transmutations, and a horde of living spells (including having one or more familiars that can shapeshift into any other familiar types you have access to, which means stuff like planar familiars, improved familiars, living spells, etc are all on the table). Master specialist will perform double-duty, since changelings can double-specialize in both illusion and transmutation. Just figure out what you want from master specialist, get it, and then get out. You don't need a ton of levels, since the other PrCs give you a lot more.

The party will never have any idea of what they're facing off with, especially if you take Invisible Spell and add it to various fog spells. They either turn off their true seeing, or all they see is big blots of fog around the landscape. And if they keep their true seeing on, they get hit really hard with the shadowcraft mage's realer-than-real spells, especially if you take Enhanced Shadow Mastery (+20% realness for shadow spells, from Dragon #245) and Solid Shadows (another +20% realness, from Pathfinder).

Mix conjuration (with the Cloudy Conjuration feat), transmutation, and realer-than-real illusion, and the party will find it really difficult to figure out what the hell is going on.

[Biggus]

Dimensional Lock will stop the Teleports, once you've done that there are quite a few types you can use. Give him a couple of scrolls of it if the battle is going to be in a fairly open area as it only has a 20ft radius.

EDIT: alternatively, they could cast Widened Greater Anticipate Teleportation on themselves, which would have a radius of 10ft per level; every time they tried to Teleport within the area, they wouldn't reappear for three rounds. Split them up in time instead of space...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dimensional Lock will stop the Teleports, once you've done that there are quite a few types you can use. Give him a couple of scrolls of it if the battle is going to be in a fairly open area as it only has a 20ft radius.(Un)Hallow + Dimensional Anchor would last significantly longer, and it can be prepped ahead of time. A weirdstone (Player's Guide to Faerun) has a constantly-on teleport-blocking effect, as well, that works even within solids.

[skunk3]

Anti-magic zones, traps both mundane and magical, lots of mooks, lots of greater dispel magic castings to take down buffs, lots of summons, walls of stone/fire, lots of archers, dimensional anchors/locks to keep people from teleporting, reverse gravity, effects that specifically target PC weaknesses like inhaled poisons/etc, uneven and rocky or litter-strewn terrain, enemies with flyby attack/spring attack, enemies that target character touch AC, etc. Basically your best bet is to just look at their sheets and find what they are potentially weak against. If you want to be a real ball buster you can start having enemies attempt to sunder everything while casters are throwing around disjunction/disintegration spells.

[zlefin]

dispelling the source of the freedom of movement effects and other buffs can make them temporary vulnerable to things they weren't expecting to have to deal with.

[Biggus]

(Un)Hallow + Dimensional Anchor would last significantly longer, and it can be prepped ahead of time. A weirdstone (Player's Guide to Faerun) has a constantly-on teleport-blocking effect, as well, that works even within solids.

Yeah, I did think about Unhallow, as it increases the radius to 40ft as well as making it permanent, but it only works if the fight is taking place at a place of the villain's choosing. The Weirdstone's a new one on me though, pricey but in a campaign where the PCs have artifacts, not unfair...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Proper (ab)use of Craft Contingent Spell would allow you to be able to set up the battlefield with hundreds of insta-cast spells to dispel their buffs, install BFC, summon monsters (possibly including living spells), screw their true seeing with realer-than-real illusions and Invisible Spell solid/acid/freezing fogs, and so on.

Just craft a bunch of contingent spells on a large number of minions ahead of time, and if you're caught out somewhere you haven't had time to prepare, who cares? Snap your fingers, and suddenly all those spells are cast to create a battlefield of your choosing. Solid, realer-than-real silent image spells are really nice for that.

Feel free to use a few nested thought bottles to basically negate the XP cost.

[Eldariel]

True Seeing isn't all-powerful. It caps at 120' so anyone with stealth and illusions/invisibility can operate freely beyond that distance. Invisible Spell Solid Fog (or any Fog spell) can also act as a straight-up block for True Seeing that can be seen through without it - this way things to be hidden from True Seeing can be hidden behind it. It gives you no special ability to see through mundane obstacles, so smoke, walls, etc. work.

And Walls always work. You said they have single use teleport items? Well, how about you just cast a bunch of them instead. They'll have to start breaking through the walls (in the case of Wall of Force that's straight-up impossible) and if they're throwing a Quickened Disintegrate at every one, they'll run out of Disintegrates before the enemy runs out of Walls. Have someone summon a Bone Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#boneDevilOsyluth) with Summon Monster VII and just start spamming Wall of Ice everywhere for instance. Use Walls to section them and if they try to get to the caster or group up, Contingency Teleport away and keep doing it until they run out of TPs and see what they do. Then have the enemy just fall on them one-by-one.


And yeah, selective antimagic effects (Antimagic Ray exists in Spell Compendium for instance, though just minions such as Familiars or such with Antimagic Fields from e.g. Scrolls on them work as well; Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm) using Imbue Arrow on Antimagic Field is doubly efficient - and targeted Greater Dispel Magic affected by Chain Spell can just disable all their magic items and there's always Disjunction) to strip them of Freedom of Movement opens up all sorts of stuff. Also, being blinded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded) (simply because you can't see 5' in front of you due to the environment) halves movement speed and that's something plenty doable with magic even with True Seeing in play. Quite the effective BFC effect as well.

Finally, there's simple bodyblocking. A couple of gargantuan Zombies or Colossal Monstrous Centipedes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/giantVermin.htm) or whatever take a lot of space and make moving around quite the hassle. Even simple medium creatures can act as living walls while taking total defense.


Of course, we're on the level where even reshaping the terrain is on the table. Simple Limited Wish can replicate Move Earth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/moveEarth.htm) as a standard action to completely reshape the battlefield, perhaps leaving some of the PCs deep underground in holes or whatever. Earthquake also has a drastic effect particularly in underground scenarios; running out of oxygen suddenly becomes a very real threat if you need to dig through thousands of feet of dirt to get out and have no clue where your allies ended up. Simply summoning an Oread [Fiend Folio] with Summon Nature's Ally VI can accomplish many of these things; doubly so if casting Empowered (off Greater Rod of Empower Spell) Summon Nature's Ally VIII for a whole bunch of them.

Disintegrate or Polymorph Any Object can create holes and Polymorph Any Object can create all sorts of creative traps. The key is that the characters lose not only mobility but vision so that they don't know where to TP; the character doesn't have the information the player does and thus has to make choices at random if they lack means to figure out which way is safe in this malleable realm. All of this gets even more interesting with Planar Bubble to bring a piece of Limbo or some other morphic, malleable realm where stuff just happens (or if the entire battle takes place in such an environment; particularly a divinely morphic realm with a divinity somewhat present).

Simple Wall of Stone also provides raw material for Stone Shape, which is again a potent combo for creating just about anything just about anywhere.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and there are effects that just work on everyone. Maw of Chaos [Spell Compendium] for instance does a ton of damage and forces a high save vs. daze within its effect area. Effects to that end can act as superbly potent detractors against even the most powerful of creatures. Prismatic Sphere and Prismatic Wall are also of similar calibre.

EDIT#2: If thinking about the Arcane Archer option, the key to realise is that the character needs only Imbue Arrow so e.g. Wizard 12/Arcane Archer 2 works, though if wanting a more traditional 13 level build, Wizard 10/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 2 might be it. Drow work just fine though any evil elf is on the table. Wizard 8/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Arcane Archer 2 works likewise for a bit more BAB but takes a lot of feats.

EDIT#3: Anticipate Teleportation [Spell Compendium] is also a solid combo woth Wall spells. If they teleport, they are stuck in limbo for 1 to 3 rounds (3 for Greater) and enemy knows the location they arrive in so death trap with e.g. Forcecage, Dimensional Lock and Acid Fog or Cloudkill can be prepared (the spells also protect one another so getting rid of the Forcecage requires getting through the Fog and the other way around).

[MisterKaws]

Just send Living Disjunctions at them.:smallamused:

[King of Nowhere]

And Walls always work. You said they have single use teleport items? Well, how about you just cast a bunch of them instead. They'll have to start breaking through the walls (in the case of Wall of Force that's straight-up impossible) and if they're throwing a Quickened Disintegrate at every one, they'll run out of Disintegrates before the enemy runs out of Walls. Have someone summon a Bone Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#boneDevilOsyluth) with Summon Monster VII and just start spamming Wall of Ice everywhere for instance.

that's good, but what if the combat is in an open field and the pcs are flying?




Of course, we're on the level where even reshaping the terrain is on the table. Simple Limited Wish can replicate Move Earth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/moveEarth.htm) as a standard action to completely reshape the battlefield,
can it? move earth has a casting time of ten minutes, and limited wish says you can duplicate a spell, not duplicate the effect of a spell. the way I read it, it means that you have to take the casting time of the spell you're duplicating.

[MisterKaws]

that's good, but what if the combat is in an open field and the pcs are flying?

Usually your first target when aiming for BFC is finding a way to stop flight and teleportation. So first figure that out, then you can use walls.

Or you can just use Axiomatic Half-Dragon Living Disjunctions to fly up to them and get them back down the hard way.

Seriously, I love Living Disjunctions, even though they make everyone rage.

[Biggus]

that's good, but what if the combat is in an open field and the pcs are flying?


If they can get access to Control Winds, that can force flying characters to the ground in a large area. Failing that, there's Earthbind and Downdraft (both in Spell Compendium).

[jdizzlean]

stone to mud and back again?

[Eldariel]

that's good, but what if the combat is in an open field and the pcs are flying?

That takes more walls. Generally six lateral walls can encase someone but obviously if you use geometry and mobility, you can use previously cast walls around the battlefield. There are Walls that can be shaped too, of course. Wall of Stone and Forcecage are good examples of this. Note that Walls can be really big too. Say Wall of Force is 10 squarefeet per level so we're talking over a hundred square feet of wall on ECL13 already. That's hard to even fly around.

But yeah, you need to produce matter you can use to cut off three-dimensional movement in a spell slot efficient means. Couple of Walls of Stone or such later, even if enemy escapes, there battlefield is much more complex. Obviously you want to combine this with vision deprival strategies (note that Project Image, even with the enemy knowing that it be fake, is able to cast spells with impunity and as it just requires line of sight and effect, it enables acting from incredibly far away in open terrain). Control Winds (Tornado) or Control Weather (any more serious storm) can easily produce the debris you want to produce obstacles, break line of effect and so on.


can it? move earth has a casting time of ten minutes, and limited wish says you can duplicate a spell, not duplicate the effect of a spell. the way I read it, it means that you have to take the casting time of the spell you're duplicating.

Limited Wish has a casting time of 1 standard action, not "See text"/"As duplicated spell"/whatever so it ought to work just fine.

[DarkSoul]

Disjoin them. If you feel bad about nuking their gear, use the Pathfinder version.

That will make other forms of BFC more effective.

[King of Nowhere]

Disjoin them. If you feel bad about nuking their gear, use the Pathfinder version.

That will make other forms of BFC more effective.

I already do that. the trio of boss enemies include a wizard with greater rod of quicken that will likely open with disjunction and quickened disjunction, an archmage that took disjunction as a spell like ability and also has a greater rod of quicken, and a cleric of the magic domain, and guess what did he pick for his 9th level domain slot?

the party is well prepared, though. the wizard enters any fight with a prepared action to counterspell a disjunction, the cleric has a staff that lets him cast disjunction and he also has a similar prepared action ready, the wizard also has her contingency set to disjuntion, the cleric uses miracle to cast contingency and also chooses disjuntion, and the barbarian got some limited casting capacity as a plot reward and he also set his own contingency to disjunction. :smallcool:

Also, ever since I used disjunction the first time on them, they always split. And they have crazy high saving throws, and several artifacts (I houseruled that artifacts cannot be disjoined, because I would feel bad at doing this to the players). As for replacing mundane gear, that's not a problem, though I'd have to go into the specifics of the campaign to explain why.

a disjunction barrage at the beginning is the bare minimum to make them vulnerable to something. I don't expect it to do too much, though.

Still, if I had been aware of the pathfinder version, I'd have implemented it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First and foremost, carefully read Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm). It allows characters to move and attack normally even if under the influence of magic that would impede movement. It also enables the character to avoid grapples, and to move and attack normally underwater. It doesn't do anything more than what it says, so even magic that impedes them from casting spells or taking actions other than moving or attacking will still have its normal effect. Magic that prevents them from taking actions at all (Hold Monster) will still render them helpless, but they can still move and make attacks with Freedom of Movement. Mundane impediments that don't involve grappling or being underwater can still work. It allows the character to move and attack normally per their current circumstances.

For example, if someone casts Call Avalanche from Frostburn (an instantaneous spell), they could move and attack as normal for someone who's buried in mundane snow (i.e. not at all). Casting Transmute rock to Mud to create mundane mud under them will still hinder them, as Freedom of Movement only allows them to move and attack per the normal mundane circumstances, ignoring only spell effects, grappling, and being underwater. Transmute Rock to Mud doesn't directly affect them, it affects the ground and the ground becomes a mundane obstacle. Again, the 'normally' part of moving and attacking normally will change depending on their current circumstances, the only one of which the spell overcomes is being underwater or those directly tied to ongoing spell effects.


One answer is to use psionics. Also keep in mind that you can't counterspell psionic powers.

Energy Missile can destroy spell component pouches, holy symbols or other divine spell foci, even weapons, shields, and armor, in addition to damaging creatures. It can destroy a bridge, a door, a pillar that's holding up the ceiling, etc. If they have any spellcasters who don't have eschew materials or an abundance of extra holy symbols, this can seriously disrupt them.

Time Hop can take a character out of the fight for quite a while with no way to undo or circumvent it. It can also be used to temporarily remove a physically powerful opponent's primary weapon, leaving him still in the fight but unable to contribute in a meaningful way.

It gets better if you're not using magic/psionics transparency, as psionic powers wouldn't qualify as magic that would impede movement because it's not magic. Even with transparency, Ectoplasmic Cocoon would still render a target helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) and unable to take any actions apart from what Freedom of Movement explicitly allows: moving and attacking.

Telekinetic Maneuver can be useful, he should use Solicit Psicrystal so he doesn't need to maintain concentration on it (but he still controls what the spell does).

He should have a psicrystal in a compartment on his person so nobody ever has line of sight/effect to it and can't target it directly or hit it with area effects. He should keep Share Pain on it so he takes half damage from all sources, the psicrystal's hardness 8 applies to every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain. He should buff himself with a max-augmented Vigor and share it with the psicrystal for a ~100 hp cushion. He should use Psionic Moment of Prescience to get an absurd bonus to initiative, it's an opposed Dex check after all.

First round he should use Temporal Acceleration (Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Astral Construct, Extended Timeless Body), and then either Time Hop or Energy Missile (spell component pouches, holy symbols, primary weapon, etc.) on anyone not trapped in the Ectoplasmic Cocoon.

Second round he's still under Timeless Body and completely invulnerable, even to Temporal Acceleration. He can use Telekinetic Maneuver and Solicit Psicrystal this turn, or Time Hop or Energy Missile again, or a max augmented Ego Whip to try to disable one opponent, etc.

Third round should look similar to the first round. He can Temporal Acceleration and then use Telekinetic Maneuver and Solicit Psicrystal, Vigor, etc. and make the last round of it Extended Timeless Body, then he still has his action during his normal turn.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

People on this forum seem to hold a general consensus that being gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) is worth approximately +2 LA or CR, despite virtually doubling the creature's class levels, as a given creature can only take so many actions per round. Even a wizard//archivist has some major restrictions, which are only somewhat mitigated by spells like the celerity line and time stop. This is why it's typically better to gestalt one active class and one class that grants passive benefits, so you have one class supporting without actions and the other giving you something to do using those actions.

Fortunately for anyone who gestalts with a psionic class, however, manifesters excel at breaking action economy in half like you wouldn't believe. They're also an extremely active set of classes that pair very well with both active and passive classes.

So give your BFC specialist +2 LA gestalt, pair up psion and wizard (or archivist, or whatever else you have in mind), and go to town with action economy optimization to go along with your BFC stuff.

[King of Nowhere]

First and foremost, carefully read Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm). It allows characters to move and attack normally even if under the influence of magic that would impede movement. It also enables the character to avoid grapples, and to move and attack normally underwater. It doesn't do anything more than what it says, so even magic that impedes them from casting spells or taking actions other than moving or attacking will still have its normal effect. Magic that prevents them from taking actions at all (Hold Monster) will still render them helpless, but they can still move and make attacks with Freedom of Movement. Mundane impediments that don't involve grappling or being underwater can still work. It allows the character to move and attack normally per their current circumstances.


this seems... a rather convoluted reading of the spell. "I can't hold you with my arms, but I can bind you with ropes, because it's totally not the same thing". "you can swing your sword just fine, but you cannot cast spells because you cannot move".
No thanks. I'll take RAI over RAW any day. If I could, I'd rather nerf freedom of movement.

[Elkad]

EDIT: alternatively, they could cast Widened Greater Anticipate Teleportation on themselves, which would have a radius of 10ft per level; every time they tried to Teleport within the area, they wouldn't reappear for three rounds. Split them up in time instead of space...

This. Anticipate Teleportation is great for breaking tactical teleportation.
Baleful Transposition lets you move the party around (and knock them out of the fight for 1 or 3 rounds if you have Anticipate up as well - a mini-Maze spell).

Depending on your reading of Freedom of Movement, high winds might impede flight. Same with variable gravity, or removing the air for those that use wings to fly.
Use regular difficult terrain, caltrops, Grease, pits, walls, to slow down ground movement.

[pabelfly]

Here's a stupid suggestion - why not a Truenamer? It can ignore spell resistance, has no saves on many of its utterances, can cast twice each turn with Quicken Utterance providing you can get your Truespeak check high enough (which wouldn't be hard given the context of your game), and you would be able to cast your debuffs on multiple players each time with Speak Unto the Masses.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Here's a stupid suggestion - why not a Truenamer? It can ignore spell resistance, has no saves on many of its utterances, can cast twice each turn with Quicken Utterance providing you can get your Truespeak check high enough (which wouldn't be hard given the context of your game), and you would be able to cast your debuffs on multiple players each time with Speak Unto the Masses....I just threw up in my mouth a little.

[remetagross]

You said they got crazy high saves, so make use of the Irresistible Spell metamagic feat from Kingdoms of Kalamar: the updated (and nerfed) version gives a +10 to the save DC of a spell in exchange for a +4 in spell level. Coupled with a DMM Cleric or another way to compound metamagic spell level increases, throw around some of the nastiest BF spells, those that annoy the PCs even if they manage to teleport away: like Choking Cobwebs, that nauseate PCs and deal Con damage, Cloudkill, Avascular Mass, a tornado-force Control Winds, Entomb...in particular, Conjuration (Creation) effects bypass Freedom of movement since they provide nonmagical impediments (though you seem to be ruling otherwise).

Depending on your ruling, you could also hit the PCs with Desert Diversion instead of Dimensional Anchor, if they're warded against that last spell, so that the abilities they use to progress past the obstacles get borked.

[Eldariel]

Far as single target debuffs go, there's also Irresistible Dance (Druid 9 through SNAIX or Wiz/Sorc 8). If you can dispel/negate their Mind Blank for even just a moment, it just straight-up takes someone out of the fight for 1d4+1 rounds and make them take a crapload of damage while at it. Spell Resistance can be Assayed [Spell Compendium] or True Castinged [Complete Mage].

[King of Nowhere]

Some of those suggestions are good, some are too optimized, some I won't use because my players are inexperienced and I don't want to pull in too much material they don't know. Anyway, thank you all.

One more specific question: I have established that the enemies of the party have some high level monks available. grappling monks would be excellent disabler, both for the casters that could not cast and for the martials who would be stuck dealing unarmed damage.
Only problem, of course, everyone has rings of freedom of movement.

Barring use of the pathfinder variant (I didn't start with it), is there some way those monks could manage to grapple? besides their spellcasters dispelling the rings, of course; I'd rather have them be threats on their own

[Eldariel]

Well, those rings can always be sundered. It's almost comically easy. They just need someone with (Greater) Arcane Sight to tell them which item to sunder.

Though Monk grapple checks still leave something to be desired. It almost certainly works better to just summon a colossal centipede or something. Though if the Monks can UMD e.g. Scrolls of Giant Size, that's a different matter.

EDIT: Tripping OTOH may not even be subject to FoM (though it probably doesn't work against non-winged flight).

Also, as the DM you can always homebrew something akin to the Tetori Monk in PF. Make it some secret Vecna-sect that studies magic so much that they can bypass some magical effects (at +10 to DC or something). Thus it makes sense that it's only available to them.

Also, Necklace of Natural Attacks would allow adding e.g. Greater Dispelling property to their UA Strike. Goes nicely with Darkmoon Disciple (Champions of Valor Web Enhancement) to Shadowblend for non-magicalish superstealth.

EDIT#2: Oh yeah, Sleight of Hand works just as well as Sunder and might be less disagreeable in the long run. Giving it to Monks takes a feat or Rogue multiclassing but it isn't that hard.

EDIT#3: One option is, just send some Wilderness Rogue (UA variant, on SRD) with at least 13 levels in the class at them (or some other source of Ex HiPS and Camouflage/similar). It has Ex Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage (picked as Rogue special abilities) so magical detection doesn't avail the party.

Then it's just Hide-check optimisation: make it Whisper Gnome or something with maxed ranks and maxed Dex, and it's almost undetectable unless someone has ridiculous Spot. Carry no magic items so Arcane Sight doesn't work. Hell, add Exemplar for take 10 on all the key skills. Feathered Wings (Fiend Folio) graft for nonmagical flight. Air is certainly a natural terrain so camouflage ought to work.

It can then steal their Rings (maxed Sleight of Hand; might as well pick up other stuff too, feel free to add Exemplar: Sleight of Hand to further buff it if desired - use the free action pick pocket from Epic uses if you want to make it fast though she's in absolutely no rush) and have her leave unnoticed (unless they miracle Spot something). Maybe sneak some cursed items into party inventory to replace the lost stuff while at it.

While leaving, have her signal an attack (some agreed upon beacon/telepathy/whatever for a massive Teleport attack). The party can then find out the hard way that their equipment is gone as they end up in a fight and suddenly find themselves grappled + pinned, paralyzed (e.g. ingested poison for instance), Solid Fog'd and entangled ('cause why not). Hell, throw in an Assassin death attack on top of it all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) works great on a grappler who doesn't rely on any sort of magic. Give one a Ring of Major Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#spellStoringMajor) with Nerveskitter and Antimagic Field in it, he can move in first and AMF the party, then the rest move in and each one grabs someone.

Otherwise have a Psion just Energy Missile all the rings into dust.

[Falontani]

Polymorph, shapechange, or however you want your monks into a Balhannoth. They have an antimagic grapple. Assume supernatural ability the antimagic grapple. (Or the psionic version).
Shifter
Monk 2/Shifter Wilder 10/Weretouched Matter 5 is an extremely powerful grappler. Metamorphosis into the Balhannoth, nab your antimagic grapple, start shifting for a huge bonus to strength, and start grappling. With Tashlatora your an effective level 12 monk for unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike brings us to level 17. Grab crushing weight of the mountain and that feat from complete warrior for pin damage. And you have hardly touched your power points.

[Eldariel]

Polymorph, shapechange, or however you want your monks into a Balhannoth. They have an antimagic grapple. Assume supernatural ability the antimagic grapple. (Or the psionic version).
Shifter
Monk 2/Shifter Wilder 10/Weretouched Matter 5 is an extremely powerful grappler. Metamorphosis into the Balhannoth, nab your antimagic grapple, start shifting for a huge bonus to strength, and start grappling. With Tashlatora your an effective level 12 monk for unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike brings us to level 17. Grab crushing weight of the mountain and that feat from complete warrior for pin damage. And you have hardly touched your power points.

It's actually an interesting question if Balhannoth can grapple someone under Freedom of Movement. After grappled, it disables all sorts of magic but FoM states that "The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt..." so can it ever get to that point? Either way, it's simple enough to houserule.

@Biff: There's also Antimagic Torc [Underdark], Bulwark of Antimagic [Draconomicon] and few other options. Though I personally prefer just having my familiar cast it and get wherever it needs to be while I rain death upon everyone inside.

[Jack_Simth]

Combined with Arcane Sight (which can be permanent), applying Chain Spell to (Greater) Dispel Magic is hilarious on parties that rely on their magic items. Turn off [Caster Level] items for 1d4 rounds (which will often be "the entire fight," but Extend Spell can make sure of it). Most items don't have a very high caster level, you see. Sure, armor and weapons have a Caster Level of at least three times their bonus... but a Cloak of Resistance is only caster level 5, a Headband of Intellect is caster level 8, and a Ring of Freedom of Movement is only caster level 7. A Rod of Quicken Spell is also suggested.

[Falontani]

It's actually an interesting question if Balhannoth can grapple someone under Freedom of Movement. After grappled, it disables all sorts of magic but FoM states that "The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt..." so can it ever get to that point? Either way, it's simple enough to houserule.
.

If your rolling a grapple check, your in a grapple. If the balhannoth is in a grapple with someone, they are under the effects of antimagic grapple. Their freedom of movement wouldn't protect them against the grapple before it's initiated, nor after being antimagic'd.
It's RaI can definitely be interpreted differently, however I personally believe the RAW is clear.

[King of Nowhere]

I tried to go for summoning bone devils, spamming walls and eventually dispels, which is what's appropriate for the optimization leevel of my table. Worked decently enough, though I felt like it was only delaying the inevitable, as the damage dealers of the party weren't able to hurt the players effectively. In the end he took a disjunction to his face, tanked all saving throws for his protective items, and died to a double mass heal (which is a real trump card against a team of liches). His phylactery is safe, though, so I still have a villain for next time :smalltongue:

The problem of the strategy is, it was a nightmare to keep track of. First thing, with everyone moving and teleporting around in an open field, we quickly run out of space on the minimap. Most bothersome, once there were a half dozen walls around, we mostly lost track of where they may be. the bone devils were forgotten half of the rounds. Nobody knew where all the fog clouds were or how big they were. And every time someone was trying to cast a spell we had to triple-check range and area and line of sight.

How do other tables manage it?
I'll probably stick to simpler stuff for the future.

[Falontani]

I tried to go for summoning bone devils, spamming walls and eventually dispels, which is what's appropriate for the optimization leevel of my table. Worked decently enough, though I felt like it was only delaying the inevitable, as the damage dealers of the party weren't able to hurt the players effectively. In the end he took a disjunction to his face, tanked all saving throws for his protective items, and died to a double mass heal (which is a real trump card against a team of liches). His phylactery is safe, though, so I still have a villain for next time :smalltongue:

The problem of the strategy is, it was a nightmare to keep track of. First thing, with everyone moving and teleporting around in an open field, we quickly run out of space on the minimap. Most bothersome, once there were a half dozen walls around, we mostly lost track of where they may be. the bone devils were forgotten half of the rounds. Nobody knew where all the fog clouds were or how big they were. And every time someone was trying to cast a spell we had to triple-check range and area and line of sight.

How do other tables manage it?
I'll probably stick to simpler stuff for the future.

Roll20, erasable battle grid, and tokens. It is more difficult with semi damaged walls, expanding cloud spells, and wind effects.

[King of Nowhere]

Roll20, erasable battle grid, and tokens. It is more difficult with semi damaged walls, expanding cloud spells, and wind effects.

does it track well verticality too? I may want to check it out

[Falontani]

does it track well verticality too? I may want to check it out

It doesn't really, each token can come with 3 bars. I usually set the ground at 1k, the higher up you go the lower your number. So when your 350 ft up it says 650/1,000, and the bar (I use blue) decreases. Then when height comes into play I eyeball the bars in question, if it's close then I click to see exact numbers and do some Pythagorean to find exact distance. It gets even more complicated when multiple people share squares but are above/below each other.
Fighting in 3 dimensions is so hard, in one game I'm in there were 3 people stacked in a 10 ft area, and it was so hard...

[Eldariel]

I tried to go for summoning bone devils, spamming walls and eventually dispels, which is what's appropriate for the optimization leevel of my table. Worked decently enough, though I felt like it was only delaying the inevitable, as the damage dealers of the party weren't able to hurt the players effectively. In the end he took a disjunction to his face, tanked all saving throws for his protective items, and died to a double mass heal (which is a real trump card against a team of liches). His phylactery is safe, though, so I still have a villain for next time :smalltongue:

For hurting the party I feel you need to be able to engineer a situation where the party gets hit with dispels (Chain Greater Dispel Magic is a good start) and attacked by either save-or-be-****ed effects (and then mauled to death) or actual attacks. Just get enough Bone Devils out there and the party just can't do much. Once they're isolated you can then have them all focus their efforts on the target they want to kill (spam massive damage spells, save-or-be-****eds, no-save damage á la Maw of Chaos or similar).


The problem of the strategy is, it was a nightmare to keep track of. First thing, with everyone moving and teleporting around in an open field, we quickly run out of space on the minimap. Most bothersome, once there were a half dozen walls around, we mostly lost track of where they may be. the bone devils were forgotten half of the rounds. Nobody knew where all the fog clouds were or how big they were. And every time someone was trying to cast a spell we had to triple-check range and area and line of sight.

How do other tables manage it?
I'll probably stick to simpler stuff for the future.

In meatspace I simply use a removable marker and draw lines on the grid writing down aerial height where appropriate. Same with turn order; a more robust system makes it impossible to miss turns such as a card for every creature or a line on paper where everybody is written at their initiative counts or whatever. Electronics do help with this a lot; we've used tablets to keep a track of everything.

[King of Nowhere]

For hurting the party I feel you need to be able to engineer a situation where the party gets hit with dispels (Chain Greater Dispel Magic is a good start) and attacked by either save-or-be-****ed effects (and then mauled to death) or actual attacks. Just get enough Bone Devils out there and the party just can't do much. Once they're isolated you can then have them all focus their efforts on the target they want to kill (spam massive damage spells, save-or-be-****eds, no-save damage á la Maw of Chaos or similar).


i tried to do that, but i only mildly slowed them. I still killed their dragon pet (with disjunction+implosion) and almost killed the druid (with burst damage), but the attempt at battlefield control factored nothing into that.
well, nothing wrong with the party winning a battle, but it was a major confrontation and they never were in any kind of danger (except the druid).
every round, the party spellcasters kicked asses, and the enemy casters spent their actions staying away from the martials. a losing strategy in the long run. may work with more minions, but there was already enough stuff on the table (the party of 5, their pet dragon, two high level allies, 4 mid level clerics who were providing an antimagic field to advance under cover, the 3 enemy bosses, a high level martial enemy, 6 mid-high enemy casters as mooks, 5 summoned bone devils, for a total of 27 characters, most of them casters with complex actions) for me to want to add something more.
I coould use battlefield control if I was throwing a couple dozen mid-high mooks at the party and no bosses, but if I have a few bosses I feel direct dispel followed by save or die and/or burst damage works better, especially for a narrative purpose: telling "if you rolled low there, you'd need another resurrection" conveys a sense of danger much more than running a bunch of calculations involving line of effect and terrain and then declaring that the barbarian cannot charge.