Confession: I think GOO Patron is terrible

[jaappleton]

Don't get me wrong: Conceptually, I adore GOO. This otherworldly power that is pretty much incomprehensible is... Appealing.

But mechanically, I really dislike it. Entropic Ward is 'meh', only one use per rest. The Psychic damage thing could literally never come into play. And the spell list, while thematic, is... Eh.

Please note: I'm the kind of player that believe you'll never reach the capstone. So I almost never take them into account, whether they be class or archetype capstone.

So... Convince me. What am I missing about GOO?

[Wildarm]

GOO is great for flavor and has the ability to be a very strong single target controller character. Create Thrall in particular has the chance to be game altering. Just caught the BBEG with hold person, tasha's hideous laughter or hypnotic pattern. You're mine now. Well at least a good buddy of mine. :)

Hexblade outshines the other pacts from a combat/optimization point of view but GOO is a great choice for a sneaky/social warlock. At will disguise self and charm effects are quite powerful at turning enemies against each other.

[PhoenixPhyre]

GOO is great for flavor and has the ability to be a very strong single target controller character. Create Thrall in particular has the chance to be game altering. Just caught the BBEG with hold person, tasha's hideous laughter or hypnotic pattern. You're mine now.

Hexblade outshines the other pacts from a combat/optimization point of view but GOO is a great choice for a sneaky/social warlock. At will disguise self and charm effects are quite powerful at turning enemies against each other.

I had a GOO lock who dominated a campaign, mainly by clever uses of the limited telepathy.

[Joe the Rat]

You're not missing much. The broadcast telepathy is helpful, but as it is outbound only mostly just gets yourself heard. It does expand your charm X options by letting you give suggestions/orders to anything. If it were two-way, you could switchboard the party for silent communications.

Thrall is potent, but I'm kind of indifferent to lackeys.

No, the best part of GOO is Evard's Black Tentacles.

[Millstone85]

Entropic Ward is 'meh', only one use per rest.Misty Escape and Dark One's Own Luck are also only one use per rest.


Create Thrall in particular has the chance to be game altering. Just caught the BBEG with hold person, tasha's hideous laughter or hypnotic pattern. You're mine now.Did the rest of the party trap you alone in a room with the BBEG, so you could milk the "can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects" clause?

Or did you make an ally of the BBEG with the amazing power of having advantage on social checks?


Thrall is potent, but I'm kind of indifferent to lackeys.I would be all for it if the feature actually gave you one.

[Man_Over_Game]

You're not missing much. The broadcast telepathy is helpful, but as it is outbound only mostly just gets yourself heard. It does expand your charm X options by letting you give suggestions/orders to anything. If it were two-way, you could switchboard the party for silent communications.

Thrall is potent, but I'm kind of indifferent to lackeys.

No, the best part of GOO is Evard's Black Tentacles.
The spell list might appear as "meh" to some, but those are some amazing picks for a controller. Combine those options with the Warlock's spell spammability throughout the day, and it's a decent choice.

Note how none of the other Warlocks provide pretty much anything for out-of-combat environments. If you're only interested in combat, then it'll appear as a subpar choice, but someone who wants to enhance their out-of-combat role, there's only one Warlock subclass for the job.

Or, in terms of Rogues, the Great Old One is the Thief/Inquisitive in a world of Scouts and Swashbucklers.

[sophontteks]

I agree.

The spell list is fantastic though. Probably strong enough to carry the archtype.

Outside that, all the abilities are lackluster. Create Thrall espesially was poorly-written and doesn't function as intended. My best guess is that charm was once a stronger effect when they wrote GOO and they forgot to go back and revise it.

[jaappleton]

I'll say this...

Before XGtE, the vanilla list for Warlocks, as far as damage-oriented spells, was kinda 'meh', IMO. Fiend was what you took when you wanted to destroy enemies.

After XGtE, the spell list overall is so much better. So I like to think that GOO has more of a place, as if to say 'it should be a more viable pick'. But I still find it to be for certain campaigns only.

If I wanted to be a Controller, I find Wizards and Bards to it better. Ok, say just Bards, because Wizards can do damn near everything... jerks...

[Joe the Rat]

Or, in terms of Rogues, the Great Old One is the Thief/Inquisitive in a world of Scouts and Swashbucklers.

A great way to capture the essence of it.

[Max_Killjoy]

I like the GOO concept, but not the implementation... the focus on mentalism is strange and doesn't fit a lot of characters who an "outsider entity" would otherwise be appropriate for.

[MrStabby]

Its the pact magic, rather than having normal spellcasting, that really hurts the archetype.

Dissonant whispers, tasha's hideous laughter, phantasmal force are all really good fun spells but just don't scale well.

[Rukelnikov]

I played a GOO Chainlock from lvl 1 to Storm Sorcerer9/GOOlock8, it requires roleplaying to get the most of it, less "mechanical buttons", but the many ways you can mindbang everyone is amazing. And it really nails the feel perfectly, starting at lvl 1.

Awakened Mind is ludicrously good, I've used it a lot to creep the **** out of people, and with a religious group making one of them think an agent of its deity was giving him signs. Imp, and Voice of the Chainmaster also helped a lot.

Entropic Ward is very meh, only used it once. I guess a pure Lock could get more out of it, since you don't have that many reactions and only 2 slots (for most of your carrer). I had Shield so I mostly went with that.

Though Shield will not come up often in combat, but being sure no one is reading my mind is the kind of feature I love for a character that will be bluffing/intimidating his way thru life.

Create Thrall I assume its the kind of YMMV, I talked it with my DM when I creted the PC and he said since its called Create Thrall the character would probably see me as its master and act in accordance, which is represented by the permanent charmed condition.

What I really liked was the spell selection, even when I MC into sorcerer I still got many spells thx to it, Dissonant Whispers, Sending, Evard's.

I really loved the subclass, and is, IMO, one of the best achieved subclasses in the game.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Its the pact magic, rather than having normal spellcasting, that really hurts the archetype.

Dissonant whispers, tasha's hideous laughter, phantasmal force are all really good fun spells but just don't scale well.

That's one of my biggest issues with it; the Fiend spell list has Blindness/Deafness and Scorching Ray at second level, both of which scale great, and, while Fireball/Wall of Fire don't upcast particularly well, at least they upcast. Very few of the GOO spells really take advantage of that whole "cast at maximum level" feature, and that kind of sucks. I do love both Awakened Mind and Create Thrall as abilities, though.

GOO is . . . fine. I still think it's better than Archfey, just because pretty much all of that patron's abilities are save-or-suck and I just don't like that, but GOO is the patron you choose because it sounds cool and fits your character concept, not because it's mechanically ideal. In 5e, that's actually fine, as you don't need to be optimized to be successful, but, yeah, I do wish the spell list scaled better for higher-level slots to really take advantage of how Warlocks work.

[strangebloke]

Or, in terms of Rogues, the Great Old One is the Thief/Inquisitive in a world of Scouts and Swashbucklers.

Thief, inquisitive, whispers bard... all underrated because people think that combat is all that matters.

[NaughtyTiger]

Thief, inquisitive, whispers bard... all underrated because people think that combat is all that matters.

to be fair, in AL (most of my DM'ing) combat is all that matters. WotC forgets about the other pillars in their modules and books.

[jaappleton]

Thief, inquisitive, whispers bard... all underrated because people think that combat is all that matters.

Combat is far from all that matters. Whispers Bard friggin' rules, and I LOVE Inquisitive (because I thoroughly enjoy being absolutely god-tier at skill checks).

But the spell list on GOO doesn't exactly scale well.

[jaappleton]

to be fair, in AL (most of my DM'ing) combat is all that matters. WotC forgets about the other pillars in their modules and books.

I find that's partly true. Can't speak to AL but Curse of Strahd is pretty great in all aspects. But that's also fairly regarded as being one of, if not the best, official 5E adventure.

[NaughtyTiger]

I find that's partly true. Can't speak to AL but Curse of Strahd is pretty great in all aspects. But that's also fairly regarded as being one of, if not the best, official 5E adventure.

i have heard that CoS was the wrong season to skip.

[Segev]

Personally, I think the telepathy is almost enough to carry the Patron choice on its own. Even if you rule it's outbound-only, that just means you can use comprehend languages in place of tongues, since you have the outbound communication handled already. You can also use it to communicate stealthily. A friends-abusing Warlock normally has to rely on at-will disguise self to keep people from realizing the guy they're mad at is now six inches shorter and less rotund. The telepathy lets you bluff your persuasve efforts as actually coming from within the guy's own mind. Sure, he's still going to hate you if he recognizes you, but he may not even know where the voice came from. Or that it was not his own mind talking to him!

Charm person now works on literally anything, regardless of language, as well. And suggestion without having to vocalize at all is amazing for its subtlety potential. Even a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell would normally have to vocalize the suggestion itself: you don't. (This is especially useful if you can multiclass to get Subtle Spell, but it's not crucial if your hiding skills are good.)

Frankly, I find the other options just plain boring in comparison.

[Vorpalchicken]

One thing about Create Thrall is while the thrall can not harm the Warlock, (unlike charm person) there is no prohibition of the Warlock harming the thrall. Kicking your Thrall down a flight of stairs won't break the condition. That's a pretty strong advantage to have over someone. It's more than just advantage on Charisma checks- they are pretty much beholden to their master.

[Ganders]

First of all, your first impression isn't wrong -- you have correctly noticed that the level 6 and 10 abilities are fairly weak. But you need to realize WHY they're weak: it's to balance out the spells and level 1 ability being really strong. Not so much strong in combat, but in social situations the telepathy can accomplish so much. GOO will only be effective if you focus on its strongest parts and mostly ignore the level 6 and 10 abilities.

Let's just start with one specific ability: Awakened Mind. It's important to note that there's no other way to get this ability. Even a Helm of Telepathy is much less flexible because it uses up bonus actions and only lets you focus on one target at a time.

Being able to communicate with people who don't speak your language can be a pretty big thing. If you really need proper both-direction communication, you can at least telepathy them to say "just give me ten minutes to complete this Comprehend Languages ritual then I'll be able to understand you". Or you could make a habit of giving unsolicited advice to... well, just about everyone you meet. Or instructions. And you should never have any trouble flagging down a waitress in a restaurant (sometimes it's the little things).

Also, you can do all sorts of voices in people's heads. Especially if you have the Actor feat. What's that big burly warrior going to do if he hears his momma calling him home for dinner? What's that very-religious priest gonna do if he hears the voice of his mentor (or even his god) in his head advising him to aid your group?

Many NPCs won't know the details of how it works. When they hear a voice INSIDE their head, claiming to read their mind and know all their secrets, are they going to believe that you have actually read their thoughts? Most likely, yes.

Plus you can do it in public. When you're brought in front of the Lizardman King, you can stand there bribing his guards to help you escape right in front of him while he watches, none the wiser. If you did that out loud he'd stab you pretty quickly.

It's possible to argue that some spells could be cast through telepathy too -- what is Guidance really, other than giving advice and encouragement? And how about Command -- does it really need to be out loud so that everyone else knows you're the one that cast the spell, or is it enough for the target to hear your word? So maybe these can be effectively cast in public too. It's a matter of interpretation though: clearly many spells do need actual sounds to manifest -- Fireball for instance. But you could argue that a GOOlock might cast Suggestion or Dissonant Whispers even while silenced.

Which reminds me, you can still use it when you're polymorphed (or wild shaped) into an animal. How many druids would give their eye teeth to still be able to talk while wildshaped? It only takes a single level of warlock.

And I might add... if you've never made a fair maiden blush right in front of her macho, short-tempered, but oblivious boyfriend, you've never really played a GOO warlock.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's really only awkward in the middle, I think. Hideous Laughter and Phantasmal Force are both great control spells for when you get them, and the at-will telepathy is a lot of fun. At higher levels, Black Tentacles and Dominate Person are outstanding, and Create Thrall has a ton of potential abuse. It just doesn't give you anything around 5th.

[Segev]

It's really only awkward in the middle, I think. Hideous Laughter and Phantasmal Force are both great control spells for when you get them, and the at-will telepathy is a lot of fun. At higher levels, Black Tentacles and Dominate Person are outstanding, and Create Thrall has a ton of potential abuse. It just doesn't give you anything around 5th.

Can you elaborate on how you'd use Create Thrall? Because of the...weakness...of the Charmed condition, I'm not sure what it's really meant to do, if you assume the writers didn't make the mistake of thinking the Charmed condition came with charm person's "they like you" clause.

[Rukelnikov]

It's really only awkward in the middle, I think. Hideous Laughter and Phantasmal Force are both great control spells for when you get them, and the at-will telepathy is a lot of fun. At higher levels, Black Tentacles and Dominate Person are outstanding, and Create Thrall has a ton of potential abuse. It just doesn't give you anything around 5th.

Dissonant Whispers is pretty good early on too. I would ready it to use on melee enemies closing in on me or a party member, if they missed their save they pretty much lost their round.

[Man_Over_Game]

Can you elaborate on how you'd use Create Thrall? Because of the...weakness...of the Charmed condition, I'm not sure what it's really meant to do, if you assume the writers didn't make the mistake of thinking the Charmed condition came with charm person's "they like you" clause.

"At 14th level, you gain the ability to infect a humanoid’s mind with the alien magic of your patron. You can use your action to touch an incapacitated humanoid. That creature is then charmed by you until a remove curse spell is cast on it, the charmed condition is removed from it, or you use this feature again.

You can communicate telepathically with the charmed creature as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence."

"Charmed
◾A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
◾The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature. "
------------

A few things that come to mind:


Make a Persuasion Check with Advantage for them to do something. They say No. Do it again. And Again. And Again. Eventually they'll go insane or break down, considering you have Advantage and they don't have anything.
Attack them. They can't attack back.


Keep in mind, it does not allow the target to make a save, and it only requires the creature to be incapacitated. That sounds difficult, but Sleep and Tasha's Laughter do that just fine. Pick up a single level into Sorcerer for both, and now you have a few tools at your disposal to incapacitate someone. Once they're Charmed, you can basically do whatever you want against them, and they can't do anything to you. If you can combo this on a boss, you can just have everyone else leave while you torture the BBEG.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can you elaborate on how you'd use Create Thrall? Because of the...weakness...of the Charmed condition, I'm not sure what it's really meant to do, if you assume the writers didn't make the mistake of thinking the Charmed condition came with charm person's "they like you" clause.
I have to assume that they did make that assumption; it's a 14th level ability called Create Thrall-- that doesn't sound like it's supposed to mean "gain a fairly insignificant skill boost against someone you already had at your mercy."

[Millstone85]

At one point, I was of the opinion that the charmed condition should be roleplayed.

So there is this person you can't bring yourself to harm, and whose threats ring true more often than not. Surely that should go deeper than "Oh noes, I can't attack this one. Eh, Bob, let's switch opponents!". Or, for the non-combat version (but not for long) "Have I been bewitched? Guards! Guards!".

Now I feel naïve for thinking so.

[Man_Over_Game]

At one point, I was of the opinion that the charmed condition should be roleplayed.

So there is this person you can't bring yourself to harm, and whose threats ring true more often than not. Surely that should go deeper than "Oh noes, I can't attack this one. Eh, Bob, let's switch opponents!". Or, for the non-combat version (but not for long) "Have I been bewitched? Guards! Guards!".

Now I feel naïve for thinking so.

You still should. Advantage on social interactions against the Charmed creature wouldn't mean anything if it wasn't intended to be used for roleplaying. The problem with that is the fact that nobody can really dictate how your DM could use that. Since it's completely open ended, we ignore that aspect of it. Not to mention the fact that "Advantage on social interaction" doesn't allow you to force someone from doing something they wouldn't already be willing to do. You probably can't convince someone to change sides, or ignore that you're a felon, it just makes it easier for them to believe what you'd be able to convince them normally.

Rather, if it's possible for a caster to Charm someone and convince them to join the caster's side, then it must have already been possible without the Charm effect (if just a bit more difficult).

[Segev]

Yeah, long-term conditioning is the best I could think of, too. There's this voice in your head, and it always manages to say exactly the right thing at the right time to evoke the emotional response it wants from you. Sure, you can resist it for a while, but...eventually, it's going to convince you to do something for it. Maybe because it'll help you, too. Maybe because it just sounds so convincing. And as it goes on, you'll start to grow accustomed to its presence. And you'll decide it's not so bad (improving your opinion via Persuasion checks).

But that's an awfully deep understanding of persuasion mechanics and how insideous constant access can be in order to get to that point.

At one point, I was of the opinion that the charmed condition should be roleplayed.

So there is this person you can't bring yourself to harm, and whose threats ring true more often than not. Surely that should go deeper than "Oh noes, I can't attack this one. Eh, Bob, let's switch opponents!". Or, for the non-combat version (but not for long) "Have I been bewitched? Guards! Guards!".

Now I feel naïve for thinking so.

I don't blame you. It's called "Charmed," not "Impotent." And the "can't attack" thing is more the latter if you don't assume it's due to liking the person so much that you can't bring yourself to. Add in that Charmed, as written, does as much to intimidate and terrify as it does to ingratiate and persuade, and it just feels poorly-named when it doesn't come with the "and they like you" clause that's in the charm person spell. It's only natural that you'd think it was meant to be played like charm person.

But, the RP is informed by the mechanics: it says nothing of liking you, so the RP is that of a person who can't help but give your words great weight and consider them in the best light for what you're trying to convince him of, but not that he has to like or even respect you. He just can't bring himself to attack you, for some reason.

So the proper RP wouldn't be a change in attitude, just a change in how he reacts to your words, and an RP reason for why he's not attacking: fear, likes you, can't bring himself to, keeps coming up with excuses not to...those are all RP choices.

[KorvinStarmast]

Create Thrall
It's a way to get a powerful creature to help you when you need them to. There is also a very "anti murderhobo" element to that 14th level skill. Yes, you had the creature at your mercy/could have gone on and killed them. They were opposed to you, or at best indifferent to your needs.
They are now charmed, and in a position to be of assistance to you and your party. But you still have to role play a bit to get there, as I see the skill. (MOG's points notwithstanding).

But because role playing isn't a digital on off switch, there is a class of D&D player who sees no value in it. That kind of myopia is their issue to resolve. In the few games I have ever played that got into double digit levels, the players were invested in the world, and didn't just kill everything that crossed their paths.

Others see the value ...
As an aside, the number of times a game gets far enough to use that is probably small.
Keeping a group together for that long runs into RL a great many times.

[sophontteks]

This is why I think create thrall was created with an old charm effect that was never published. Most charm spells specifically mention how they change the targets opinion of you. Like vampire charm, Glamorous performance, and Charm person. Because these effects specifically mention that the target's outlook has changed, its implied that it must be mentioned. Spells like Hypnotic pattern charm the target, but don't change their outlook toward the caster, and it makes sense here. Create thrall, it seems, just wasn't written correctly.

[Rukelnikov]

Create Thrall
It's a way to get a powerful creature to help you when you need them to. There is also a very "anti murderhobo" element to that 14th level skill. Yes, you had the creature at your mercy/could have gone on and killed them. They were opposed to you, or at best indifferent to your needs.
They are now charmed, and in a position to be of assistance to you and your party. But you still have to role play a bit to get there, as I see the skill. (MOG's points notwithstanding).

But because role playing isn't a digital on off switch, there is a class of D&D player who sees no value in it. That kind of myopia is their issue to resolve. In the few games I have ever played that got into double digit levels, the players were invested in the world, and didn't just kill everything that crossed their paths.

Others see the value ...
As an aside, the number of times a game gets far enough to use that is probably small.
Keeping a group together for that long runs into RL a great many times.

I feel it's not just Create Thrall that has a lot of value but needs roleplay to get the most out of it, its the whole subclass.

Awakened Mind is in the same boat, if you just use it to communicate, like if you were talking, its... not that great, but add RP onto it (and credible non-bot NPCs) and its awesome. Detect Thoughts and Phantasmal Force too, add some creativity, couple them with awakened mind, and break their reality down, poor sods. You are given a lot of tools to drive people mad, or just having them dancing for you, and play a puppet master, Create Thrall is kinda the ultimate expression of it, you cut directly into it by making someone unable to directly harm you, and to be in awe of you. For a less refined, more vulgar manner of getting people do your bidding, you get Dominate Person as a 5th lvl spell.

[JackPhoenix]

Charm person now works on literally anything, regardless of language, as well. And suggestion without having to vocalize at all is amazing for its subtlety potential. Even a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell would normally have to vocalize the suggestion itself: you don't. (This is especially useful if you can multiclass to get Subtle Spell, but it's not crucial if your hiding skills are good.)

It's mostly a wash... sorcerer doesn't look like he's casting a spell, just saying something and the victim obeys, the warlock is obviously casting a spell, so any witness can put two and two together why is the victim doing whatever. It's best if you combine the two. Ignoring coffeelock shennanigans, 3 levels of sorcerer on a GOOlock or one level of GOOlock on a sorcerer are better for subtlety than going straight in either class.

[Rukelnikov]

It's mostly a wash... sorcerer doesn't look like he's casting a spell, just saying something and the victim obeys, the warlock is obviously casting a spell, so any witness can put two and two together why is the victim doing whatever. It's best if you combine the two. Ignoring coffeelock shennanigans, 3 levels of sorcerer on a GOOlock or one level of GOOlock on a sorcerer are better for subtlety than going straight in either class.

I did exactly that, when my DM told me he didn't treat Suggestion as I do when I DM (the verbal component is the suggestion itself) I had no choice but get Subtle MM, but I never coffeed for slots above my normal maximum.

[Pharaon]

This is why I think create thrall was created with an old charm effect that was never published. Most charm spells specifically mention how they change the targets opinion of you. Like vampire charm, Glamorous performance, and Charm person. Because these effects specifically mention that the target's outlook has changed, its implied that it must be mentioned. Spells like Hypnotic pattern charm the target, but don't change their outlook toward the caster, and it makes sense here. Create thrall, it seems, just wasn't written correctly.

I actually like that Create Thrall doesn't include a "friendly" switch. I think the facet of the target being visited by a slouching beast of the night, an inescapable voice constantly hectoring, an ominous and likely hostile presence that you cannot attack even though ever fiber of your being screams in protest, is very thematic for Great Old One patron.

I agree with some others here: GOO might not look powerful in paper, but with a willing DM and table, it has vast RP potential. But I'm biased; warlock is my favorite class and GOO my favorite patron (and tome pact, if you're wondering).

[DarkKnightJin]

Haven't read the full thread (yet), just wanted to chime in and saying the discussion has solidified it for me: The version of Link I'm going to have as an NPC in my setting will have Awakened Mind.
It totally explains how people know what he's "talking" about while being effectively mute for the most part.

I'm a big fan of Awakened Mind anyway, but my DM allowed my guy to be the party switch board.
Honestly, I don't think it's OP enough to limit it to 1-way traffic, as you need to be within 30 feet.

I'm not going to enforce that 'Sage Advice' thing when I'm DMing, anyway. Everybody is free to rule it as they like, of course

[Pharaon]

Haven't read the full thread (yet), just wanted to chime in and saying the discussion has solidified it for me: The version of Link I'm going to have as an NPC in my setting will have Awakened Mind.
It totally explains how people know what he's "talking" about while being effectively mute for the most part.

I'm a big fan of Awakened Mind anyway, but my DM allowed my guy to be the party switch board.
Honestly, I don't think it's OP enough to limit it to 1-way traffic, as you need to be within 30 feet.

I'm not going to enforce that 'Sage Advice' thing when I'm DMing, anyway. Everybody is free to rule it as they like, of course

Our table plays Awakened Mind similarly. Two way communication with one person at a time, and it takes the same amount of time as regular speaking. So if the party of four wants to have a silent conversation using the warlock as a relay, it will take a lot longer than normal (don't have to RP that, just general table knowledge that we need to balance stealth and in-world timeliness).

The distance has sometimes been invoked, but we are pretty fluid on that. Whatever works best for the story.

[Millstone85]

Haven't read the full thread (yet), just wanted to chime in and saying the discussion has solidified it for me: The version of Link I'm going to have as an NPC in my setting will have Awakened Mind.
It totally explains how people know what he's "talking" about while being effectively mute for the most part.I feel like I am the only person on Earth who, upon selecting a dialogue option for Link, picture him actually saying the thing, even if he doesn't go "Haaa oof yaaah" while his interlocutor goes "Mumble mumble".

[DarkKnightJin]

I feel like I am the only person on Earth who, upon selecting a dialogue option for Link, picture him actually saying the thing, even if he doesn't go "Haaa oof yaaah" while his interlocutor goes "Mumble mumble".

I know he can talk. And actually does in a lot of the cases.
Bit it's just fun to have him not need to. Plus, it'll throw any metagaming players off that metagame, since it's the same thing the BBEG from their one-shot could do. And he had Mask of Many Faces, too.
If your players aren't at least a little bit paranoid about telepathic NPCs, are you doing your job as DM? 😁

[JackPhoenix]

I feel like I am the only person on Earth who, upon selecting a dialogue option for Link, picture him actually saying the thing, even if he doesn't go "Haaa oof yaaah" while his interlocutor goes "Mumble mumble".

Dunno about Link (never played any Zelda, being PC master race and not dirty console peasant and not having time/interest in the new ones for both platforms), but I've played RPGs (and other video games) before voice acting in games was as commonplace as it is now, so I never assumed otherwise.

[Segev]

But because role playing isn't a digital on off switch, there is a class of D&D player who sees no value in it. That kind of myopia is their issue to resolve. In the few games I have ever played that got into double digit levels, the players were invested in the world, and didn't just kill everything that crossed their paths.

Others see the value ...I kinda resent this characterization of people who question its utility. Yes, with a cooperative GM who isn't afraid to let players accomplish things the mechanics don't expressly spell out as possible, RP is a powerful tool. There are enough powergamers who have burned enough GMs with "roleplaying" that was just an excuse to talk their way into overpowered effects that you can tell a lot of early-edition D&D rules that made it into legacy status even in 3e are there to prevent a thing from happening again. This persists in my experience with semi-random GMs, in any sort of pick-up game or living campaign: if I can't state clearly why I believe my character CAN do something, without relying on having to talk the GM into believing my RP excuses, it's probable that I'll not be permitted. This is particularly true in dealing with manipulating NPCs, who will seem to have utter resistance to any social mechanics that don't essentially include mind control.

So, yes, I do question why a power that seems to suggest overt mind control and mind-slavery comes across as a lighter touch than a first-level charm person spell.


I actually like that Create Thrall doesn't include a "friendly" switch. I think the facet of the target being visited by a slouching beast of the night, an inescapable voice constantly hectoring, an ominous and likely hostile presence that you cannot attack even though ever fiber of your being screams in protest, is very thematic for Great Old One patron.

I agree with some others here: GOO might not look powerful in paper, but with a willing DM and table, it has vast RP potential. But I'm biased; warlock is my favorite class and GOO my favorite patron (and tome pact, if you're wondering).
I agree; with a cooperative DM, this is pretty cool.

Heck, one could argue to a degree that the Teen Titans cartoon featured Slade as a GOO Warlock who'd used Create Thrall on Robin, then later on Tara. Robin couldn't get the guy out of his head, was continually manipulated by him, and couldn't seem to attack him without Slade basically ordering him to. No, Robin never switched sides, which annoyed Slade greatly and led to eventually changing targets, but....

[Aquillion]

It's pretty bad.


Telepathy at level 1 is very valuable if you're the party face (not uncommon for Warlocks.)
Entropic Ward is pretty terrible. There's not much to be said to defend it.
Thought Shield is also pretty terrible - it's just too situational.
Create Thrall is notionally cool, but it doesn't actually make the target your thrall, it just charms them (giving you advantage on Charisma checks against them and preventing them from attacking you.) For long-term charming, Geas came online five levels earlier, and allows other casters to have multiple thralls! The telepathy is nice, but not really worth your capstone feature. This ability basically depends on your DM giving you more than it has listed based on the name alone.


The spell list is ok, but not enough to justify the Patron. And several spells there (Dissonant Whispers, Phantasmal Force) are better for a normal caster who has low-level spells to burn.

[Zuras]

It's pretty bad.


Telepathy at level 1 is very valuable if you're the party face (not uncommon for Warlocks.)
Entropic Ward is pretty terrible. There's not much to be said to defend it.
Thought Shield is also pretty terrible - it's just too situational.
Create Thrall is notionally cool, but it doesn't actually make the target your thrall, it just charms them (giving you advantage on Charisma checks against them and preventing them from attacking you.) For long-term charming, Geas came online five levels earlier, and allows other casters to have multiple thralls! The telepathy is nice, but not really worth your capstone feature. This ability basically depends on your DM giving you more than it has listed based on the name alone.


The spell list is ok, but not enough to justify the Patron. And several spells there (Dissonant Whispers, Phantasmal Force) are better for a normal caster who has low-level spells to burn.

Have you seen how one plays in practice? The only Warlocks I’ve seen in play have been multiclass, Fiend, Hexblade or Celestial. The closest comparisons I see are to Trickery and Nature Clerics. Trickery has a great spell list but a mish-mash of other features. Nature has one great feature (dampen Elements at 6th) and an otherwise meh spell and feature list. Both are playable but understandably less popular than domains with more coherent and focused features Life, Light and Tempest.

It seems like the Great Old One patron will work fine if you plan on using the telepathy and mind reading extensively, but will be disappointing otherwise.

[Dr. Cliché]

Out of Interest, what makes Entropic Warding so much worse than the Lv6 abilities of other Warlock Pacts?

[Wizard_Lizard]

I agree,
although a pact with Cthulhu is in my opinion, the coolest, thematically speaking, The great old one pact definitely loses a lot of punch mechanically.

Although, I still use it over the other pacts, simply because I enjoy the themes.

[Segev]

I agree,
although a pact with Cthulhu is in my opinion, the coolest, thematically speaking, The great old one pact definitely loses a lot of punch mechanically.

Although, I still use it over the other pacts, simply because I enjoy the themes.

I just don't see it. I mean, I look at the other pacts, and I heave a mighty shrug. They're...okay, I guess? I don't actually see their level 1s as any better than Awakened Mind, and their 6s and 9s seem just as meh as GOO's. Generic damage-dealing and one-off minor protections.

[Pharaon]

I just don't see it. I mean, I look at the other pacts, and I heave a mighty shrug. They're...okay, I guess? I don't actually see their level 1s as any better than Awakened Mind, and their 6s and 9s seem just as meh as GOO's. Generic damage-dealing and one-off minor protections.

Hexblade level 6 is leagues ahead of the other patrons, but that's because Hexblade is crazy overpowered compared to every other patron. Seriously, Hex Warrior's paragraph about Charisma added to attack and damage should be part of vanilla Pact of the Blade (or an invocation requiring Blade Pact) and the added proficiencies can serve as the level 1 feature, which would still put it at the top of level 1 warlock features. I've played a Hexblade through level 14, and had fun with it, but seriously, how did this get published?!

Anyway, outside of Hexblade, Fiend might have the best (Dark One's Own Luck: d10 added to ability check or saving throw, can use after seeing the die), but I'd say Entropic Ward is second best. Mostly because I think Fey's Misty Escape is bad (sure, teleport away and gain invisibility, but after taking damage, compared to GOO and Fiend trying to prevent damage) and Celestial's level 6 is a cut rate Agonizing Blast for radiant and fire damage.

Similar for level 1: ignoring Hexblade, Celestial's ranged, bonus action, multi-d6 Lay on Hands variant is amazing. But I'd again put GOO next. Fey's level one can be a nice short range short duration group charm/fear, but very situational. Fiend's THP-on-kill ain't doing anything for me.

[Aquillion]

Out of Interest, what makes Entropic Warding so much worse than the Lv6 abilities of other Warlock Pacts?Disadvantage / advantage once per long rest just isn't that impactful, especially since it's redundant with any other sources for those things. Additionally, it requires that you get attacked, which most Warlocks should be trying to avoid. And sometimes you get hit anyway (spoiling the advantage at the same time.)

Going over other level six abilities, Misty Escape and Dark One's Own Luck provide much better or more useful effects when you're in danger, while Soul of the Raven is just really useful utility.


I just don't see it. I mean, I look at the other pacts, and I heave a mighty shrug. They're...okay, I guess? I don't actually see their level 1s as any better than Awakened Mind, and their 6s and 9s seem just as meh as GOO's. Generic damage-dealing and one-off minor protections.
Grasp of the Kraken is amazing, although that one might not count. Ranged multi-target grapples that consume no resources is just too good to pass up. At higher levels it's not that hard to break out of, but given that it's basically a cantrip, wasting even one enemy turn is an incredible bargain.

Dark One’s Own Luck looks underwhelming until you need it. Adding 1d10 to a save post-roll will save your life at some point.

Misty Escape is an actually worthwhile panic button.

[Segev]

Disadvantage / advantage once per long rest just isn't that impactful, especially since it's redundant with any other sources for those things. Additionally, it requires that you get attacked, which most Warlocks should be trying to avoid. And sometimes you get hit anyway (spoiling the advantage at the same time.)

Going over other level six abilities, Misty Escape and Dark One's Own Luck provide much better or more useful effects when you're in danger, while Soul of the Raven is just really useful utility.


Grasp of the Kraken is amazing, although that one might not count. Ranged multi-target grapples that consume no resources is just too good to pass up. At higher levels it's not that hard to break out of, but given that it's basically a cantrip, wasting even one enemy turn is an incredible bargain.

Dark One’s Own Luck looks underwhelming until you need it. Adding 1d10 to a save post-roll will save your life at some point.

Misty Escape is an actually worthwhile panic button.Can't speak to Grasp of the Kraken; not familiar with it. But Misty Escape is roughly duplicated by a 2nd level spell that is, IIRC, on the Warlock list, and Dark One's Own Luck, while okay, runs into the Bigger Spider problem, just like Entropic Warding. Yeah, EW is lame, and DOOL actually could be useful, but in practice, I doubt I'd see much use of either because they're 1/day abilities and they're not game-changing enough that I can definitely say, "Okay, now's the time to use it."

I just find them all underwhelming, so I don't find EW to be meaningfully worse.

[Pharaon]

Just to throw this out there, all 3 of the PHB level 6 abilities are short rest recharge.

[sophontteks]

Just to throw this out there, all 3 of the PHB level 6 abilities are short rest recharge.
Yeah, they are all pretty good...except undying.
Oh and look undying recharges on a long rest too...weak.

[Pharaon]

Yeah, they are all pretty good...except undying.
Oh and look undying recharges on a long rest too...weak.

Oh, I forgot about Undying again. Worse still, you reminded me about Undying!

I'm not even going to bother looking it up.

[Cynthaer]

Have you seen how one plays in practice? The only Warlocks I’ve seen in play have been multiclass, Fiend, Hexblade or Celestial. The closest comparisons I see are to Trickery and Nature Clerics. Trickery has a great spell list but a mish-mash of other features. Nature has one great feature (dampen Elements at 6th) and an otherwise meh spell and feature list. Both are playable but understandably less popular than domains with more coherent and focused features Life, Light and Tempest.

It seems like the Great Old One patron will work fine if you plan on using the telepathy and mind reading extensively, but will be disappointing otherwise.
I have a level 5 tiefling GOOlock that I've been playing in PbP Adventurer's League for a while.

I'd largely agree with your assessment. If you're the kind of player who gets really itchy when they feel like they've made a suboptimal choice, I wouldn't recommend the Great Old One. I've used Dissonant Whispers since level 1, had some fun with Phantasmal Force for a couple levels before swapping it out, and haven't taken either of the level 3 spells. I expect to make heavy use of the level 4 and 5 spells, though.

Personally, I've greatly enjoyed it. The character concept is basically "friendly and helpful, but also largely amoral and casually horrifying". Awakened Mind has been fun, because she's the type of person to just start speaking directly into someone's mind with no particular care for how alarming that might be for the target.

The arguable lack of powerful spells hasn't bothered me much. For 3rd-level spells, for instance, I've found that the core warlock spells Enemies Abound and Hunger of Hadar are already perfect for the character, so it kind of doesn't matter much that I'm not specifically using the GOO-exclusive spells.

Overall, I'd say that while the GOOlock isn't the best warlock, it is the best at being a GOOlock. There's enough relevant stuff that's unique to it that it's worth taking if it fits your character concept the best.

[Aquillion]

Can't speak to Grasp of the Kraken; not familiar with it.It's from a subclass Mike Mearls made during a livestream about making subclasses. It's the level one ability of the Kraken patron:


Starting at 1st level, you gain the ability to call forth spectral tentacles that grab at your foes. As an action, pick a point you can see within 60 feet of you. A horde of grasping tendrils appears at that point. Creatures of your choice within 10 feet of that point must make a Strength saving throw against your warlock spell save DC. Creatures that fail their saving throws are grappled for 1 minute or until you use this ability again. The spectral tentacle's Strength (Athletics) bonus is 2 + your proficiency bonus and its reach is 10 feet.

Note that it isn't 1/anything; you can just spam it as much as you want (although it does release anyone previously held by it.)

Keep in mind that that subclass was never playtested or anything, of course.

[Joe the Rat]

But Misty Escape is roughly duplicated by a 2nd level spell that is, IIRC, on the Warlock list, .
Is that misty step or invisibility?
The benefit here is combining the two effects as a reaction.
It's no "have a spectre for the day," but it beats "make dis/advantage happen."

[No brains]

Accordion to Twitter, Jeremy Crawford can be a GOO patron. He'll patronize you by allowing you to put buffs in a Glyph of Warding and letting elves short rest in half the time, but you must sacrifice coffeelocking and shield masters shoving before their attack. https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1118924015723147264

[Aquillion]

Is that misty step or invisibility?
The benefit here is combining the two effects as a reaction.
It's no "have a spectre for the day," but it beats "make dis/advantage happen."
The invisibility helps a lot. Note that it lasts until the end of your next turn, so you have enough time to slip away safely before going visible again. Also, if you attack instead, the invisibility grants advantage against most opponents anyway.

The fact that it's a reaction (even if you have to take damage first) is also valuable, since it lets you go "oops, I just lost half my HP, better be somewhere else now" immediately rather than on your next action, which can sometimes save your life. And it has double the usual range.

Finally, "spell-like abilities" aren't bad for Warlocks in general, because they get so few spell slots.

[Millstone85]

The invisibility helps a lot. Note that it lasts until the end of your next turn, so you have enough time to slip away safely before going visible again.It lasts until the start of your next turn, so no you don't.

[JackPhoenix]

It lasts until the start of your next turn, so no you don't.

Which makes it even worse, because most of the the time, you take damage when it's not your turn. And of course, even if the teleport helps, invisible =/= hidden, so the enemy should know where you are, even if they can't see you.

[Dr. Cliché]

And of course, even if the teleport helps, invisible =/= hidden, so the enemy should know where you are, even if they can't see you.

You might need to run that one by me again. :smallconfused:

[Pharaon]

You might need to run that one by me again. :smallconfused:


An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

'Hide' is a specific action and it's benefits are not granted by simply being invisible. If you are invisible and don't want people to know where you are, you still need to take the Hide action.

[Cynthaer]

'Hide' is a specific action and it's benefits are not granted by simply being invisible. If you are invisible and don't want people to know where you are, you still need to take the Hide action.
I realize that this technically should have been specified in the text if it was the designers' intent, but it seems fairly intuitive to me that after (A) turning invisible and (B) teleporting away, the warlock should effectively be untargetable, whether or not you officially call them Hidden.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is RAW. But I am saying that I find it an obvious enough ruling for me to assume it's in play when I'm evaluating the power of the ability.

[Dr. Cliché]

'Hide' is a specific action and it's benefits are not granted by simply being invisible. If you are invisible and don't want people to know where you are, you still need to take the Hide action.

But surely being invisible confers its benefits without needing to hide? :smallconfused:

Also, given that the warlock teleported, I fail to see how there would be signs of its passage.

[Boci]

But surely being invisible confers its benefits without needing to hide? :smallconfused:

By RAW, probably not, since it says "(invisible creatures) can always try to hide", which implies they still need to take the hide action, they just don't need to have cover to take the hide action, as others do. Not how I run it as a DM (not for this ability at least), but that does appear to be RAW.

[JackPhoenix]

But surely being invisible confers its benefits without needing to hide? :smallconfused:

Also, given that the warlock teleported, I fail to see how there would be signs of its passage.

It does confers its benefits, however, "unknown location" isn't one of those benefits.

And nothing says teleportation doesn't create signs of its own... especially one called "misty escape" and described as creating "puff of mist".

[Boci]

It does confers its benefits, however, "unknown location" isn't one of those benefits.

And nothing says teleportation doesn't create signs of its own... especially one called "misty escape" and described as creating "puff of mist".

It seems at least plausible that the puff of mist manifests wherre you teleport from, not too. Yes, RAW its not that good, but if they just wanted the ability to give disadvantage on attack rolls until start of turn, they could have just said that. The teleport+invisibility implies it is meant to obscure the location.

[Millstone85]

But surely being invisible confers its benefits without needing to hide? :smallconfused:
It does confers its benefits, however, "unknown location" isn't one of those benefits.Indeed, the only benefits are:

attacks against an unseen target are done with disadvantage.
attacks from an unseen attacker are done with advantage.

"This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see."

"lf you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

PHB p194, Unseen Attackers and Targets.