Permanent Alter Self?

[Great Dragon]

As implied, I'm curious of what level a spell that did this would be.

Permanently change a person's appearance: eyes, hair, height, weight. (In any combination)

Another Race's appearance could be duplicated, but not any of their racial abilities.

Mostly a permanent Disguise trick.
And, yes - Dispel Magic and Anti-magic negates it.

[Icecaster]

Well, I don't believe there's a definitive answer, but if it were my game I'd rule it as either a 6th or 7th level slot probably, although the character would need some sort of special training, like spending a feat slot to do so or being an alteration wizard.

[Wildarm]

I'd allow a wizard to research a way to upcast alter self. +2 levels 8 hours, +4 levels 24 hours - No Concentration +6 levels permanent till dispelled

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd allow a wizard to research a way to upcast alter self. +2 levels 8 hours, +4 levels 24 hours - No Concentration +6 levels permanent till dispelled

This is a great idea. I'd definitely let that happen in my own games. My biggest concern is, though, is that it does mean that certain features (like racial features) can be made permanently redundant by a level 6 spell.

[noob]

Does not alter self make you lose your initial race features?

[Man_Over_Game]

Does not alter self make you lose your initial race features?

If you change your appearance, your stats or racial bonuses are not changed.

I'm referring to the option of gaining natural weapons, which are a highlight of certain races.

Compare this with, say, the Tortle, who's high AC is not directly redundant with Mage Armor (which is less), Heavy Armor (which requires a proficiency and stats), or Unarmored Defense (which requires high stats and specific class levels). Choosing to take Heavy Armor and Strength can be redundant with the Tortle's AC in a way, but the Strength and Proficiency requirement are permanent investments. I could take Alter Self at level 11, cast it on myself, and forget it at level 12, and now my Race is just better than yours. It's not a game changer in any scenario, but it's at least something to consider.

[sophontteks]

Bestow curse is 3rd level and can become permanent as a level 9 spell. Using this as a base 8th level magic would be a fair pick. Dispel magic would still remove it.

[strangebloke]

Bestow curse needs to be upcast to 7th level to last 24 hours. So I'd rule that if you upcast alter self to 6th level, you can make the effect last 24 hours and therefore make it 'permanent' by recasting it every day.

Knock it down to fifth if you remove the ability of alter self benefit to be changed at will.

[Wildarm]

This is a great idea. I'd definitely let that happen in my own games. My biggest concern is, though, is that it does mean that certain features (like racial features) can be made permanently redundant by a level 6 spell.

Spending your 6th level slot every day is a definite cost to doing this. A magic item could do the same. If you have access to 8th level slots then yes it could make that feature redundant. But hey you're not far from breaking the game anyway(9th level spells).

[JackPhoenix]

Master of Myriad Forms invocation requires level 15 and offers functionality beyond disguise (you get the waterbreathing a and natural weapon parts too) and you can switch between the options, so having the disguise as (semi?)permanent from level 6-7 spell sounds fair.

[Great Dragon]

Wow.
Actually, I was hoping for a 4th level at most, so that an Arcane Trickser (or EK) could use it.

Why do you think that it should be so high?



Knock it down to fifth if you remove the ability of alter self benefit to be changed at will.

Right, once done, the spell ends and doesn't change.

As for Tortle: the shell would grant no AC.

Tabaxi has claws, but is not proficient.
(Monk?)

Drow doesn't give 120' Darkvision.

Tiefling doesn't have Thaumatugy.

And so on.
For changing your Race modifiers and abilities completely, that would take True Polymorph. For stacking both Races = Wish

[PhantomSoul]

Wow.
Actually, I was hoping for a 4th level at most, so that an Arcane Trickser (or EK) could use it.

Why do you think that it should be so high?


Disguise Self would probably be a better bet for getting it lower-levelled, since it (a) isn't concentration, (b) starts at a lower level, (c) it's strictly a disguise and not also transmutation effects and (d) has a limitation (seeing through illusions).

That said, I wouldn't be giving a permanent illusion at 4th level from a single casting; it's meant to have a duration of one hour and can be pretty potent, especially in the hands of an Illusionist. Casting it every day for a bit perhaps, though, but even then it's an impressive ability. I'd probably put it into a Tiara of Disguise Self or something like that instead of changing the spell.

[Errata]

You can get unlimited Disguise Self at will with a 2 level dip in Warlock, which is not necessarily a terrible idea for an Arcane Trickster anyway. A pure illusion like that is much less powerful than Alter Self, and much less unbalancing to allow greater use of it. Disguise Self is more appropriate for a Trickster.


This is a great idea. I'd definitely let that happen in my own games. My biggest concern is, though, is that it does mean that certain features (like racial features) can be made permanently redundant by a level 6 spell.

It has a range of self, so it requires the target to be heavily invested in high level Alteration magic. That's a very niche thing that won't apply to most characters who benefit from those racial features. And yes, a high level Wizard might have some ancillary benefits from it, but it's Martial characters who are likely to derive more benefit from those features anyway. A high level Wizard getting a minor buff to themselves is within their wheelhouse and not breaking anything.


Wow.
Actually, I was hoping for a 4th level at most, so that an Arcane Trickser (or EK) could use it.

Why do you think that it should be so high?

It's functionally very similar to a level 15 Warlock invocation.

Arcane Tricksters are dabblers, not people who are going to come up with entirely new spell effects. I think a high level Alteration Wizard being the one to research a spell like that is the right call.

If you want it for your hybrid caster, I would say the way to handle it is to go on a quest for a custom magic item or to commission a high level Wizard NPC who can find a way to cast this for you.

I don't think the ability is so overpowered that it should be impossible for you to get what you want, but it doesn't fit well within the power level of spells that those subclasses can wield.

[strangebloke]

Wow.
Actually, I was hoping for a 4th level at most, so that an Arcane Trickser (or EK) could use it.

Why do you think that it should be so high?



Right, once done, the spell ends and doesn't change.

As for Tortle: the shell would grant no AC.

Tabaxi has claws, but is not proficient.
(Monk?)

Drow doesn't give 120' Darkvision.

Tiefling doesn't have Thaumatugy.

And so on.
For changing your Race modifiers and abilities completely, that would take True Polymorph. For stacking both Races = Wish

Honestly, if you're just looking to undergo a race change, your best bet is Reincarnate. Work with the DM to see if you can get a specific race.

A hat of disguise is an uncommon item. A hat of alter self (or a boon granting the same effect) should only be one level of rarity worse.

[sophontteks]

Permanent alter self is getting into godly levels of magic. A character who can do this will never die of old age and could live on for hundreds of years taking a new form throughout the generations. 8th level at least for cheating mortality.

[Great Dragon]

Honestly, if you're just looking to undergo a race change, your best bet is Reincarnate. Work with the DM to see if you can get a specific race.
I am the DM. LoL.
It's something I'm wanting to give to players.


A hat of disguise is an uncommon item. A hat of alter self (or a boon granting the same effect) should only be one level of rarity worse.

This might be the best way.
With the actual spell being the 6th level up casted Alter Self.

Thanks, everyone.

[JNAProductions]

Permanent alter self is getting into godly levels of magic. A character who can do this will never die of old age and could live on for hundreds of years taking a new form throughout the generations. 8th level at least for cheating mortality.

Um... Why would it do that?

[Man_Over_Game]

Permanent alter self is getting into godly levels of magic. A character who can do this will never die of old age and could live on for hundreds of years taking a new form throughout the generations. 8th level at least for cheating mortality.

Keep in mind that Alter Self does not replace your stats, your racial bonus, or your race at all. You can change your appearance on the outside, or give yourself claws, but you'd still have the AC shell of a Tortle.

[sophontteks]

If I alter myself to be young, I won't be old. Alter self is real, it is not an illusion. This is transmutation magic.

We can't really get into the racial changes. Many racial benefits are cultural, or mental more then physical. Alter self does however allow you to grow fully functional fangs, claws, and such.

[JNAProductions]

If I alter myself to be young, I won't be old. Alter self is real, it is not an illusion. This is transmutation magic.

And the spell text says that you can do that... Where?

I mean, by that logic, I use Alter Self to increase my Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution to 20. Or beyond. But the spell doesn't allow for that.

You could LOOK young, but it won't replace worn-out organs or anything like that.

[sophontteks]

And the spell text says that you can do that... Where?

I mean, by that logic, I use Alter Self to increase my Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution to 20. Or beyond. But the spell doesn't allow for that.

You could LOOK young, but it won't replace worn-out organs or anything like that.
The text doesn't mention the long-term implications of this because its a 1 hour spell. So we aren't going to find text for what doesn't exist.

[noob]

The text doesn't mention the long-term implications of this because its a 1 hour spell. So we aren't going to find text for what doesn't exist.

Except a wizard with spell mastery(or whatever that high level class feature was named) can already keep alter self on permanently(cast it once an hour) and it is in core.

[sophontteks]

Except a wizard with spell mastery(or whatever that high level class feature was named) can already keep alter self on permanently(cast it once an hour) and it is in core.
Its a high level feature, so what's the problem?

[JNAProductions]

The text doesn't mention the long-term implications of this because its a 1 hour spell. So we aren't going to find text for what doesn't exist.

So, you're basically making a houserule that Alter Self can be used to keep someone permanently young, and then declaring it broken because of that?

Edit: Side note, how many campaigns would this even MATTER in, let alone be broken in?

[Man_Over_Game]

The text doesn't mention the long-term implications of this because its a 1 hour spell. So we aren't going to find text for what doesn't exist.

Keep in mind that Alter Self does not replace your stats, your racial bonus, or your race at all. You can change your appearance on the outside, or give yourself claws, but you'd still have the AC shell of a Tortle.

Since the racial traits of your race don't change with Alter Self, I don't think that your lifespan would change either. This is compounded by the fact that lifespan is determined by your race. The more I look at it, the more it appears that Alter Self only changes what's happening on the outside.

[Errata]

If I alter myself to be young, I won't be old. Alter self is real, it is not an illusion. This is transmutation magic.

It says you can make yourself look young, not be young. It says your statistics don't change, and without text to the contrary I would interpet your lifespan to be one of the things that doesn't change. 5e doesn't have that optional rule that 3.5e had about age categories impacting your attributes, but it seems to me that if a very elderly person could make themselves look young without actually being any more physically fit, then it's not a total rejuvenation. Yes it's alteration rather than illusion, but it seems to be a more surface level cosmetic alteration than something like polymorph that actually transforms your entire body.

[Great Dragon]

The question about the natural AC of the Tortle: while I can definitely see that a non-Tortle would not get this with (any version of) Alter Self, would the Tortle caster retain their AC despite being in a form that doesn't have it?

Personally, I'd say that the physical change was enough to not keep it. But then, the Rules Lawyers would argue that if this was the case, the reverse should also apply, and AC is gained while in Tortle form.

But, I suppose that there can be a case where their new 'skin' is still as tough as their shell?

But, the RAW (which is still the Base upon which Homebrew should be built, IMO) specifically states that this in not the case.