Me and level 20

[Marywn]

I've been playing for quite some time now, playing in many campaigns and having many characters. But the things that has always eluded me is getting a character to level 20. I've never once gotten any character higher that 15 and thats it. Whats your experiences of level 20 CHaracters or the elusive level 20.

Keep in mind I've started from level 3 to 5

[Yunru]

The whatnow?
Levels cap at 11, didn't you know?
If you're lucky you're DM might let you go to level 20, but it's still only 11 in a class.

Or I might be confusing house-rule and reality :P

[Marywn]

THats what it feels like all the time man. I hope that I can actually play late game 5e, though then I would have to worry about PWK and have to get Deathward on a item

[NaughtyTiger]

campaigns i have played peeter out around level 11...

For my AL PCs, i have taken the PCs to different tables and run one-offs to level 14, but without an ongoing campaign his party, it feels lame.

[Keravath]

Best solution I have found is Adventurer's League in an area with a good population of players. The local game store I play at has a lot of folks with more than one level 20 character.

Adventurer's League tier 4 modules are also probably a decent source for inspiration for DMs looking for ideas and appropriate challenges for putting together their own tier4 material. I think one reason play tends to fizzle a bit is because the characters become quite a bit more powerful and move out of the comfort zone for a lot of DMs. On the other hand, from what I have seen, 5e is still very playable and all the way to 20.

P.S. One way to get a campaign feel in AL is to play through hardcovers. Depending on the specific hardcover this should take you to level 11-15. You could then finish this off with content from Dungeon of the Mad Mage or just transition to Dungeon of the Mad Mage from Waterdeep Dragon Heist at level 5.

[GlenSmash!]

Soon I shall be level 6 the highest level I will have achieved in 5 years of 5e.

[Legendairy]

I have run a campaign to level 20, we still have the characters and plan on revisiting...sometime. But I dmed for a bit over a year and a half. I ran another game to 15 but it kind of died out. Both starting at lower levels, the level 20 group started with Out of the Abyss then into homebrew and converted AD&D modules. But personally my highest level character was ran in a solo campaign to 14.

[Moltenbrisingr]

I have played up to level 18 and have played a few level 20 one shots. Honestly i think the further you go past 15, the harder it is for your DM to deal with the fact you have too many options. It can be done, but there need to be so many contingencies to make sure the wizard doesn't trivialize every challenge with all their crazy magic. Level 20 is (at least for me) a goal more than it is a level of play. The other issue is that at level 20, every threat needs to be one of world ending proportions. There's nothing like the feeling of being 20th level though and a commoner in a bar gets angry and hits you with a chair or something.. good times.

[2D8HP]

The highest level I've played at was 15, but the campaign started at a high (I think 9?), the highest I've reached from 1st level was 6th (both and other of my PC's were Champion/Swashbucklers).

[some guy]

The highest character I played reached lvl 12 and the highest level I dm'ed for was level 12. I've ran 3.5 a whole lot longer than I did 5e and the highest character level I dm'ed for in that system reached 12 as well.
That's the highest, though. Most of the characters I dm for reach around lvl 5-7.

[Foxhound438]

I've played a whole 1 character to level 20, and since we started at level 1 and played 2 to 3 sessions at every level, it took a very, very long time to get to 20. the DM was being very generous with level advancement too. My advice is that if you want to experience that top end of play in a home game, your best bet is to express interest in a campaign that would start at a high level in the first place and take you to 20 for a very high stakes story. Maybe someone will write up an adventure for you to play in eventually, but that's really the best way of getting to play at high levels. Also, note that your experience can vary, since it's really hard to eye out encounter difficulty for the DM. You might be crushing dragons and armies the whole time with no sense of challange or you could get split and cornered by a generic mage and eaten by a boring old terasqe with no sense of agency at all.

[Mikal]

Soon I shall be level 6 the highest level I will have achieved in 5 years of 5e.

God that’s horrible. That’d be so boring.

[Spo]

God that’s horrible. That’d be so boring.

I think it is only boring playing at that tier if your DM lacks imagination. Level 5 and 6 have a nice sweet spot where PC's can feel powerful at times yet still be easily challenged.

Just my 2 copper pieces.

[Mikal]

I think it is only boring playing at that tier if your DM lacks imagination. Level 5 and 6 have a nice sweet spot where PC's can feel powerful at times yet still be easily challenged.

Just my 2 copper pieces.

Meh. There’s just so much fun at higher tiers as well. The scope of everything expands and if you play a caster things truly open up. Level 6 is the start of the journey for me, not the end (with 1-5 acting as the prelude)

[Yora]

I always wonder why they even bother creating levels 11 to 20 for all classes. Would be a lot easier to simply stop at 10. Would safe a lot of time and money, and make the PHB considerably smaller.

[hymer]

As a player, I have played an occasional one-shot at low-medium double digits, but that was back in 2e.

As a DM, the highest I've dealth with was a West Marches campaign that went from 1st to 17th level. That was 3.5 (and I think we should have stopped earlier, but everyone was so eager to play).

I have never actually played or DM'ed for a legitimately level 20 character.

[Chronos]

My 5e group got up to 14th level (starting from 1) with our first characters. But when we wrapped up that adventure, we all decided that our characters were in a pretty good place, with most of them having non-adventuring things to be doing, and decided to retire them and start over.

[redwizard007]

In 5e I have yet to break through level 5. In 3.5 we made it into the teens a few times. In 2e I DM'd a campaign that went from level 1 to godhood. That was truly epic.

Notice that the amount of time I have to play has dropped, and so has progression. Adulting is hard.

[GlenSmash!]

God that’s horrible. That’d be so boring.

It wasn't one campaign.

Mostly a lot of starting and stopping and a couple of years where I was exclusively DMing.

Frustrating as a player, but not boring.

[Dankus Memakus]

I had a group get to like 13-15 (some joined later) all from level one. It took a good year and a half and since we are all good friends they ended up killing each other because of alignment issues...good times. One guy survived and did a few solo quests and got to like 17. That’s the highest I have ever seen.

[ZorroGames]

My top tier AL PCs are 11th level Earth Genasi Battle Master, 7th level MD War Wizard, Forest Gnome Wizard 3/Cleric 2, and MD OH Monk 5. A few IP Tier 1 MC characters also...

I do not actually plan on getting past Tier 3 myself.

I play or DM about 3 times a month, up recently to 4 this Month. Pretty much been a month or two longer than I have been in this forum.

[ZorroGames]

In 5e I have yet to break through level 5. In 3.5 we made it into the teens a few times. In 2e I DM'd a campaign that went from level 1 to godhood. That was truly epic.

Notice that the amount of time I have to play has dropped, and so has progression. Adulting is hard.

Retiring frees up one’s time though income drops...

[Potato_Priest]

Level 4 is the best level anyway, so I wouldn't be too upset.

*Note that by saying that level 4 is the best level I do not mean to imply that level 4 characters are more mechanically powerful, but that I personally really enjoy the breadth of challenges and party abilities at level 4. It's just before the big level 5 power boost, but people have a good amount of HP and all of their essential abilities already, including a feat or an ASI.

[Mackatrin]

3.5 most campaigns went to around level 12, the same is Semi True with 5e. The reason for this, is because around that level, short of the gates of hell themselves opening, theres not much for your characters to do. Bandits are attacking a village? You can literally cast a single spell, but should a 12th level character really be doing that with their power? The problem is your characters, especially mages at that point, are so powerful they can bend reality and elements to their will.

The reason Archtypes were added, is because in 3.5, you'd have to wait till level 5-6 to be able to actually get your Prestige class, then the game would actually start. Then you'd get to play that class for 5-6 levels and the content just dries up. It becomes alittle harder to create plots, it becomes harder to balance fights, as around that CR range, things can one shot you or the smallest oversight can completely screw the party. It becomes alot of issues, in 5e there isn't a "massive" amount of support, for 10-16.

This has almost always been the case for DnD, thats one of the reasons they sped the game up with 5e. Don't get me wrong, there are DMs that go past 12, but majority just have the players retire their characters and have them act as guidance for the next generation of PCs or end up NPCing them in the world.

Even for me after a 2 year campaign that we played once a week, highest my characters got to was level 12 at which point, they completed their quest, they stopped Bhaal from invading the Material Planes and at that point, what left is there for them. They can never go back to living a simple adventurers life, they are so powerful they'd be asked to becomes leaders of factions, leaders of cities, etc. etc. It just becomes harder to keep the game going, is why that typically doesn't happen, unless a campaign is specifically designed to go from 1-20.

[TripleD]

I always wonder why they even bother creating levels 11 to 20 for all classes. Would be a lot easier to simply stop at 10. Would safe a lot of time and money, and make the PHB considerably smaller.

This is the sacred cow that needs to be addressed in 6e when it comes around. Or at the very least make a better DMG that actually talks about running a game from 1-20 and the specific challenges to each tier (with examples)

[sithlordnergal]

I have a level 20 Soradin in AL, and I gotta say, it is fun. I've found that my strategy has changed upon getting into tier 4 and reaching level 20. Up until then I was generally the front line tank that just smited things into oblivion and laughed as everything missed me due to my high AC. Now though, I've taken a more passive role. I usually spend my time working as a caster, supporting the party from the back. Though when the time comes I still charge in and smite things.

[Mackatrin]

This is the sacred cow that needs to be addressed in 6e when it comes around. Or at the very least make a better DMG that actually talks about running a game from 1-20 and the specific challenges to each tier (with examples)

Again, the issue has nothing to do with the edition. It comes down to, DMs having to do alot of extra work.

Take a look at your MM and see truely how many enemies there are amongst levels 12-16, its not alot, even check VGM and MTF, both of them added some in, but not a large majority. And most of the monsters listed are just end game bosses. I.E. Beholders, Vampires, certain demons. They aren't your average infantry encounter monsters.

At that point, its on the DM to use the DM Workshop tools to create their own monsters, which comes down to a playtesting/balancing issue.

DnD has virtually never supported 12-16 and they've always been considered dead levels. 3.5 made an attempt with afew supplemental to fix this with MM 2 - 4, however it still comes down to the DM. 3.5 was hard, because at the end of the day, once you got to those levels, you would have players/enemies who could straight up hit for a +50 +80 +100 and have massive numbers. Combat drags on for hours, because of all the abilities, healing, going through spell lists. 5e rectified this by simplifying the numbers, however we don't have a supplemental out yet that actually takes care of those levels, other than a handful of enemies.

Again, its not impossible for a party to go to 20 from 1. Its just extremely hard for a DM to actually design a campaign that justifies a party doing that. I've tried, but at the end of the day, one quest takes priority, then they complete that one quest and its hard for them to do anything else.

I don't think any DnD fans, especially DMs want to even begin thinking of 6e, as we haven't gotten alot of supplemental support, just a ****load of adventures. I'd like to see a book drop, with some random ass stuff, like a book that focuses sheerly on east asian stuff, breaking down the society and focusing heavily on eastern mythology with the monsters and how to implement monsters from the MM into it. Theres still ALOT of mileage left on 5e, especially with how they are doing UA and the playtesting.

[Yora]

I really wonder what would happen if they would release PHBs in the BECMI style again. One book with the basic rules and all classes from level 1 to 10, and a second book from level 11 to 20, plus maybe some new classes.

Lots of people would buy the second book, but I assume sales would be much lower.

[Mackatrin]

I really wonder what would happen if they would release PHBs in the BECMI style again. One book with the basic rules and all classes from level 1 to 10, and a second book from level 11 to 20, plus maybe some new classes.

Lots of people would buy the second book, but I assume sales would be much lower.

I disagree. I think alot of people would just buy the first book and not alot would grab the second.

At the end of the day, it becomes alot of work at higher levels. I've had players who once they start hitting around 8, I have them managing their own businesses, estates, factions, etc. Alot of it comes to just getting bored playing the same character.

Again it comes down to DMs keeping the game interested and actually doing their own work.

[Yunru]

Retiring frees up one’s time though income drops...

As someone who's unemployed, not having a job paradoxically consumes more time.

[rolan7]

Wow, that explains it. I'm shocked to see how many of you have the same experience as me. I wondered why my DM was so hesitant to take it to 20. We got up to around 15, and I really had to push even for that. My DM kept nudging us to restart, and I couldn't figure out why. Any MMO I tend to want to max a class before trying others, but in D&D it sounds like the DM's workload, godly player status, and the lack of content for this range results in a suboptimal experience. Too bad, all these builds that speak to lvl 20 abilities had my hopes up.

[sithlordnergal]

So, I have a suggestion for any DM that wants to run level 20 games. Look at premade, tier 4 modules, and maybe a few tier 3. They're made for characters that are between levels 11 and 20 and tend to do a good job making challenges for high level characters.

I will admit, some monsters are home made, but a majority of them are stuff you would find in the MM. The modules just add special things to make stuff trickier, like not being allowed to kill certain creatures or you fail a mission, or setting up the terrain in a way to mess with players.

[Dalebert]

Best solution I have found is Adventurer's League in an area with a good population of players. The local game store I play at has a lot of folks with more than one level 20 character.


This. I have three level 20s and several more tier 4s very close to it. I've got got plenty of complaints about AL but it made this possible and I'm glad for it.

[rolan7]

This. I have three level 20s and several more tier 4s very close to it. I've got got plenty of complaints about AL but it made this possible and I'm glad for it.

What are the most common downsides of AL?

[ZorroGames]

What are the most common downsides of AL?

Lack of party continuity; not being able as a DM to just say no, (the bane of playing at a shop is they set the parameters,) to murder-hoboes (there are ways to deal with them but you have to work at it;) players with ungodly characters at lower tiers (until you find out how they cheated and ban their character;) and the constant 6-7 players at every table (more work at all tiers.)

I like to DM but it is the uncommon (sadly far from rare) difficult player (and DMs who are unwilling to deal with them,) that takes some of the zest out of the game at times.

DMing all of April and then playing until we move to the West side of the County.

[rolan7]

Lack of party continuity; not being able as a DM to just say no, (the bane of playing at a shop is they set the parameters,) to murder-hoboes (there are ways to deal with them but you have to work at it;) players with ungodly characters at lower tiers (until you find out how they cheated and ban their character;) and the constant 6-7 players at every table (more work at all tiers.)

I like to DM but it is the uncommon (sadly far from rare) difficult player (and DMs who are unwilling to deal with them,) that takes some of the zest out of the game at times.

DMing all of April and then playing until we move to the West side of the County.

Sounds brutal, but once you get a good group maybe you can stick together?

[ZorroGames]

Sounds brutal, but once you get a good group maybe you can stick together?

Priority given to signups on Warhorn.net site. People bumped from tables with 7 already next. Then walk-ins. Plus a table for level 1-2 “new” to AL players reserve.

One group did it (posted a closed game for a Dragon Heist campaign) but the shops “expects” no one will be turned away. Do not know if that relates but there were no more closed admission games after that. And the DM has not been seen since on that weekly session.

[Foxydono]

Whats your experiences of level 20 CHaracters or the elusive level 20.
I have played a character till lvl 35 into an epic campaign. We started at first level and it took a couple of years. I must say it was really fun, Asmodeus invaded the earth with a huge army and on the other side we had the holy crusade and a couple of other factions. Chutulu also entered the game as well as the famous, long forgotten, undead (intelligent) wizard Tarrasque with beholder eyes!

As to answer your question, it's fun, but you need homebrew to keep it interesting and a lot imagination. You need homebrew creatures, a homebrew campaign and homebrew characters. Things can go off the trails very fast. At one point we had a couple of holy avengers, a few spare cloaks of the archmagi, a few skilled tombs, hand and eye of Vecna, as well as some other artifacts.

The campaign starts revolving about the end of world issues, rather than your standard quests lines. I understand this is rather specific for what I did in my campaign and you also have 'normal' level 20 one-shots. But those usually evolve around a one time character and not those you played from low level. This makes playing them different as you developed your character in a way you normally never do.

TLDR, it's fun as long as you enjoy a more homebrewy game and accept that d&d isn't well equipped to deal with such high level characters, especially if you go into epic modes and continue your campaign. It takes a lot more work from your DM to deal with all the balance issues.