Maddening Hex, Eldritch Smite, or Agonizing Blast

[kbob]

So i have a hexblade that just leveled to 6. I currently have Imp Pact Blade, Thirsting Blade, and Agonizing Blast. I was thinking getting rid of AB to get either Maddening Hex or Eldritch Smite. I want to focus on melee but there are several times in our sessions that range is the only option or the best option. Usually doing 10-20% of combat at range. So maybe i should keep AB after all? What are yall’s thoughts on each of those options from a optimization standpoint. I should state that my CHA is 20. Also, we have ruled that “Hex” at higher levels still works through a short rest (assuming you still have time left). That was based on research online and from the Sage. I ask for no debate on that point as it’s set in stone for us. I only bring it up because i think it gives Maddening Hex more luster. So what say ye? Thanx in advance.

[Man_Over_Game]

Don't worry about ranged damage. One of the benefits of having Improved Pact Weapon is the fact that you can change it into a ranged weapon. Not only that, but when a flying creature is knocked prone, they fall. Start smiting those birdies with reckless abandon.

Worst case scenario, you have to spend an action reforming your weapon into a Longbow, which isn't the end of the world.

[Degwerks]

Don't worry about ranged damage. One of the benefits of having Improved Pact Weapon is the fact that you can change it into a ranged weapon. Not only that, but when a flying creature is knocked prone, they fall. Start smiting those birdies with reckless abandon.

Worst case scenario, you have to spend an action reforming your weapon into a Longbow, which isn't the end of the world.

Exactly what he said. Get Eldritch Smite.

[NaughtyTiger]

contrarian here.

your pact weapon can be a longbow, but it takes a whole action to transform it.
so using your bow is 2x 1d8+mod vs 2x 1d10+mod (agonizing blast)
but if the enemy closes in on you, what do you do for melee combat?



eldritch smite is 3d8 force damage 2x per rest + massive effect. that effect will get you out of melee spectacularly

agonizing blast is +6 (cha 16) per round

maddening hex is +3 per round per target (maybe +6?) but you gotta be close...


i was gonna say keep AB, but I think I talked myself into smite.
but, don't make it a long bow. EB is a better bow.

[Man_Over_Game]

contrarian here.

your pact weapon can be a longbow, but it takes a whole action to transform it.
so using your bow is 2x 1d8+mod vs 2x 1d10+mod (agonizing blast)
but if the enemy closes in on you, what do you do for melee combat?



eldritch smite is 3d8 force damage 2x per rest + massive effect. that effect will get you out of melee spectacularly

agonizing blast is +6 (cha 16) per round

maddening hex is +3 per round per target (maybe +6?) but you gotta be close...


i was gonna say keep AB, but I think I talked myself into smite.
but, don't make it a long bow. EB is a better bow.

Thinking about it, you're proficient in whatever your Pact weapon is. If you use your Pact Weapon as an Improvised Weapon (as in, using your bow to smack someone), I'd assume you'd be proficient in doing so?

[NaughtyTiger]

Thinking about it, you're proficient in whatever your Pact weapon is. If you use your Pact Weapon as an Improvised Weapon (as in, using your bow to smack someone), I'd assume you'd be proficient in doing so?

uhh... uhh.... witch! he's a witch!!! (dude, i have no idea how to approach that)

[Mikal]

Thinking about it, you're proficient in whatever your Pact weapon is. If you use your Pact Weapon as an Improvised Weapon (as in, using your bow to smack someone), I'd assume you'd be proficient in doing so?

No, because your proficient with the weapon as it’s weapon. An improvised weapon is by its nature not a true weapon and thus can not gain proficiency

[Man_Over_Game]

No, because your proficient with the weapon as it’s weapon. An improvised weapon is by its nature not a true weapon and thus can not gain proficiency

At the same time, though: "You are proficient with it while you wield it." Not "You are proficient in that kind of weapon while you wield it".

Now, Crawford did say "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise", but note the regular portion of that. He states it loses its "regular" properties, not "all". I don't think of Pact the Blade's bonuses to be considered a "regular" property. Rather, Pact of the Blade is more explicit than the general rule of Improvised Weapon, so I'd consider it as having priority over the general Improvised Weapon rules on proficiency.

But there's a lot of interpretation there, so I wouldn't blame any DM for ruling otherwise.

[Keravath]

Personally, I find Eldritch Smite to be a trap for a warlock before level 11.

You get at most 2 uses/short rest.
You need to roll a crit to make it really worthwhile.
You can't afford to spend your spell slots on really useful spells.

I have a melee hexblade with PAM+GWM (just took resilient con at level 8 so my cha is only 16 - human variant AL).
I used darkness+devils sight to get advantage on my attacks up to level 6.
At level 7, I started using Shadow of Moil which makes you heavily obscured and works against creatures with both devils sight and truesight.

Would I rather blow a spell slot for one 4d8/5d8? Or have always on advantage on every attack allowing for efficient use of GWM and PAM? (Creatures also have disadvantage to hit you significantly increasing your defensive ability).

The smite average damage is 18 at 4d8 and 22.5 at 5d8. Regularly hitting with GWM and PAM is +30/combat round, every combat round. Personally, I think using the spell slot for Shadow of Moil for a melee hexblade is better than Eldritch Smite though if you happen to get a crit then it can be fun to roll those dice.

The other issue with Eldritch smite is that you can't afford to use a spell slot for utility. If you are grappled or restrained then using Misty Step to get out scratches a smite. Using hex to increase damage, scratches a smite ... and you only have 2.

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On the topic of maddening hex ... how useful it is depends on what you use your bonus action for and the typical combat situations that come up. If you have PAM or GWM then both of these provide bonus action options (and they are both likely choices for a melee hexblade since without them you are better off using eldritch blast since it does more damage).

Maddening hex requires multiple targets next to the creature you are attacking. In the games I have played, I've found this happens surprisingly infrequently unless you are fighting a horde. In addition, using it takes your bonus action and it only does charisma mod of damage. Useful but not that great. It is a decent option if you frequently run into large numbers of opponents, don't have something better to cast than hex, and no competition for your bonus action.

----

Finally, agonizing blast allows you to add your charisma mod to every eldritch blast. It gives a melee hexblade a decent ranged attack that can be cast without changing your pact weapon to a form that does less damage and takes an action to do so.

So although considered a bit mundane and maybe even boring :) ... I'd still say agonizing blast is the best option and consider Eldritch Smite for 11+ when you have more spell slots/SR.

[Rukelnikov]

While I do agree that slots are very limited, and you shouldn't go smiter happy, I disagree with ES only being worth on a crit, dropping an enemy prone when you have a melee ally or two can be more than worth it.

[Fryy]

Personally, I find Eldritch Smite to be a trap for a warlock before level 11.

Agreed, from personal experience. Spells are fun.

Losing action economy by switching pact weapons is not fun.

AB all the way.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Personally, I find Eldritch Smite to be a trap for a warlock before level 11.

You get at most 2 uses/short rest.
You need to roll a crit to make it really worthwhile.
You can't afford to spend your spell slots on really useful spells.

I have a melee hexblade with PAM+GWM (just took resilient con at level 8 so my cha is only 16 - human variant AL).
I used darkness+devils sight to get advantage on my attacks up to level 6.
At level 7, I started using Shadow of Moil which makes you heavily obscured and works against creatures with both devils sight and truesight.

Would I rather blow a spell slot for one 4d8/5d8? Or have always on advantage on every attack allowing for efficient use of GWM and PAM? (Creatures also have disadvantage to hit you significantly increasing your defensive ability).

The smite average damage is 18 at 4d8 and 22.5 at 5d8. Regularly hitting with GWM and PAM is +30/combat round, every combat round. Personally, I think using the spell slot for Shadow of Moil for a melee hexblade is better than Eldritch Smite though if you happen to get a crit then it can be fun to roll those dice.

The other issue with Eldritch smite is that you can't afford to use a spell slot for utility. If you are grappled or restrained then using Misty Step to get out scratches a smite. Using hex to increase damage, scratches a smite ... and you only have 2.

----

Maddening hex requires multiple targets next to the creature you are attacking. In the games I have played, I've found this happens surprisingly infrequently unless you are fighting a horde. In addition, using it takes your bonus action and it only does charisma mod of damage. Useful but not that great. It is a decent option if you frequently run into large numbers of opponents, don't have something better to cast than hex, and no competition for your bonus action.

----

Finally, agonizing blast allows you to add your charisma mod to every eldritch blast. It gives a melee hexblade a decent ranged attack that can be cast without changing your pact weapon to a form that does less damage and takes an action to do so.

So although considered a bit mundane and maybe even boring :) ... I'd still say agonizing blast is the best option and consider Eldritch Smite for 11+ when you have more spell slots/SR.

Agreed.

I'm currently playing a paladin 6/hexblade 2, and even with paladin slots I only smite on a crit (admittedly, knocking an enemy prone is a very nice rider). And running a single concentration spell for a whole combat is just far more efficient than blowing the slot on a non-crit smite (be it bless, hex or divine favor). Unless you're fighting once per short rest and ending your fights in a couple of turns or less, then IMHO having a buff that goes the distance will usually be the better return on investment over a smite.

Especially with a 20 Cha, I'd hold on to Agonizing Blast. Find another way (feats, concentration spells) to buff your damage up to acceptable levels.

[Vogie]

Being able to use ES to:

Smite
Knock a flying creature out of the sky
Give your Melee companions advantage on attacks
Combination of the above
Vs Agonizing Blast which gives

Moar Damage

There is a very distinct reasons for both, and it's largely based on your party composition and campaign.

Need more DPR? AB. Have multiple melee rogues or GWMs? ES. Tons of little targets and/or very few short rests? AB. Lots of single, powerful targets and/or short rests? ES.

[JackPhoenix]

your pact weapon can be a longbow, but it takes a whole action to transform it.

Or you can just use the weapon you've designated as part of your Hex Warrior feature. It and the pact weapon both key from Cha. It's not ideal (pact weapon gets Hex Warrior benefit, but HW-weapon doesn't get pact weapon benefits), but it works.

[Keravath]

Or you can just use the weapon you've designated as part of your Hex Warrior feature. It and the pact weapon both key from Cha. It's not ideal (pact weapon gets Hex Warrior benefit, but HW-weapon doesn't get pact weapon benefits), but it works.

Except that the hex warrior weapon can't be two handed which eliminates polearms, great weapons and bows. So you can't choose a ranged weapon as your hex warrior weapon except for a hand crossbow or a sling. Since the character is primarily melee, one would guess that they want to use improved pact weapon for their melee weapon of choice.

[Keravath]

Being able to use ES to:

Smite
Knock a flying creature out of the sky
Give your Melee companions advantage on attacks
Combination of the above
Vs Agonizing Blast which gives

Moar Damage

There is a very distinct reasons for both, and it's largely based on your party composition and campaign.

Need more DPR? AB. Have multiple melee rogues or GWMs? ES. Tons of little targets and/or very few short rests? AB. Lots of single, powerful targets and/or short rests? ES.

Out of curiosity, is your opinion here from your experience playing a melee hexblade warlock or more along the theory line?

I agree that doing some extra damage and knocking a target prone can be very useful. I've seen a level 12 hexblade warlock use eldritch smite very effectively. It is a very useful tool to have. I just think that it doesn't make sense before level 11.

The "nominal" adventuring day might have two fights between short rests. This gives a warlock one spell for each fight or two in one and none in the other. The utility of knocking something prone varies depending on party composition and initiative order. If your turn is right before the target there is no point in knocking it prone since it will just stand back up before anyone else can hit it. Even in a average initiative distribution there will usually only be half your team mates that can take advantage and only some of those may be melee. In addition, if you have ranged DPS then knocking prone can actually be a bad idea even if you score a crit since all the ranged support will have disadvantage.

Finally, using eldritch smite requires the warlock to get a hit with their pact weapon (not a hex warrior weapon). Using eldritch smite on a flying creature requires the warlock to have a ranged pact weapon available. If the warlock is usually melee then they have to spend an action to change the weapon to a bow before they can try to smite a flying creature. It sounds great on paper and if you have a chance to prepare it might work for a round to cause some extra falling damage. However, the warlock still has to change the weapon back to melee to take advantage of the flying creature getting knocked prone.

In addition, if agonizing blast doesn't have enough appeal despite the significant increase in damage then take repelling blast instead for the additional battlefield control, knocking creatures back 10' whenever they are hit. Even that would be far more practical use than eldritch smite to a level 6-10 warlock in my experience.

[Crgaston]

Or you can just use the weapon you've designated as part of your Hex Warrior feature. It and the pact weapon both key from Cha. It's not ideal (pact weapon gets Hex Warrior benefit, but HW-weapon doesn't get pact weapon benefits), but it works.

Not that well after L5, though, as Thirsting Blade only applies to Pact Weapons.

@OP...

Your 20 Cha makes it really hard to recommend letting go of AB.

However.

I prefer Repelling Blast for the control aspect over damage, but you might consider Grasp of Hadar to pull your enemies closer since you’re melee focused.

Either one could synergize with Maddening Hex by allowing you to force enemies to congregate for your 5 Bonus Action damage. It might not come up often, but when it does, you’ll feel like a Tactical Boss.

On the other hand, you’re just one level away from Relentless Hex and Shadow of Moil. It only works once (from Hexblade’s Curse) per short rest as opposed to the potential of the Hex/Maddening combo’s consistency.

Now that I think about it, though, despite the fact that it sounds like a cool ability, Relentless Hex works best against foes that are running away, and those aren’t typically the ones you have to worry about.

[kbob]

Thank you all! I believe i will keep AB till 11 then i may add ES. The las post was intersting in it’s own right. I have always heard that as good as HBs are at melee they are even better at spaming EB (though it may not fit the intent of the design). I think i am going to build a BBEG that is a EBing HB when the players in the campaign im running get higher level (we all DM our own campaigns in our group and we prefer dangerous boss encounters as we get little satisfaction if there is little/no chance of dying). Been wanting to see how he would work in combat but not enough to actually make him my character. I think he could be nasty when the party gets around 10-13.
Anyway. Thanks again!

[Vogie]

Out of curiosity, is your opinion here from your experience playing a melee hexblade warlock or more along the theory line?


Both.
In theory, it give you more options in addition to allowing you to nova and turn your slots into auto-hit force damage if you wait for crits.
My current character is a hexblade warlock, playing an off-tank/DPS role alongside a WM sorcerer and a rogue (as well as a tank & life cleric). Between them, we're able to do more than a fair bit of damage, but being able to crit fish (due to hexblade's curse) AND amp up those crits with spell slots AND provide the Rogue with free advantage is just a wonderful power parfait. As a Melee character I rarely use EB unless we're in a position where I have no other options.

[kbob]

[QUOTE=Vogie;23854778]Being able to use ES to:
[LIST]
Smite
Knock a flying creature out of the sky


So thought: what if you threw you pact weapon at an airborne enemy. You would be proficient. Right?
If so, you could always dismiss it if it needed to be (ie keep enemy from taking it or whatever). Or what if you obtained a weapon that you made your pact weapon that had a “returning” property on it. Idk if such a weapon exists in official 5e but that would be cool! Throw your magical greatsword (proficient cuz HB/PoB) at the flying dragon and smite him all to have it come back and do it again next round if you have another spell slot.

[Vogie]

So thought: what if you threw you pact weapon at an airborne enemy. You would be proficient. Right?
If so, you could always dismiss it if it needed to be (ie keep enemy from taking it or whatever). Or what if you obtained a weapon that you made your pact weapon that had a “returning” property on it. Idk if such a weapon exists in official 5e but that would be cool! Throw your magical greatsword (proficient cuz HB/PoB) at the flying dragon and smite him all to have it come back and do it again next round if you have another spell slot.

You'd need a weapon with the thrown property... and there is a RAW Dwarven Thrower (a +3 throwing hammer) that does have the returning property. Alternatively, you could see if your DM would allow you to use a non-thrown weapon as a thrown improvised weapon, if you have the requisite feats or rule of cool. You can then just summon it as an action again.

[TyGuy]

I want to focus on melee but there are several times in our sessions that range is the only option or the best option. Usually doing 10-20% of combat at range.

Would Grasp of Hadar + Lance of Lethargy alleviate some of those situations?

I saw this exact conversation before and someone brought up a good point about how grasp and repelling blast work wonders as control, especially when there are hazards to push/pull enemies into.

[Chaosmancer]

Except that the hex warrior weapon can't be two handed which eliminates polearms, great weapons and bows. So you can't choose a ranged weapon as your hex warrior weapon except for a hand crossbow or a sling. Since the character is primarily melee, one would guess that they want to use improved pact weapon for their melee weapon of choice.

Follow the paragraph to the next page.

Hex Warriors can use two handed weapins if they take Pact of the Blade at 3rd level. They break the rules text is a weird place though so a lot of people miss it