Can you combine heightened spell with other meta magic feats??

[Scottlang]

I've been asked a question, can you combine let's say empowered spell with heightened spell, so empowered spell takes two slots higher, ie fireball, which is a 5th level, now but has the saves of a level 3 spell, if I combined it with heightened spell would the DC then be of level 5 as well?? If that makes sense.

[Darrin]

I've been asked a question, can you combine let's say empowered spell with heightened spell, so empowered spell takes two slots higher, ie fireball, which is a 5th level, now but has the saves of a level 3 spell, if I combined it with heightened spell would the DC then be of level 5 as well?? If that makes sense.

Yes, that works as you've presented it.

Spellcasters can keep adding different metamagic effects to a spell so long as they have a spell slot of sufficient level to accommodate the metamagic cost or some method of reducing the metamagic level adjustment. You can't add the same metamagic effect twice.

Edit:


No, changes to the spell level are cumulative, so if you empowered a Fireball and heightened it to 5th level, it would take a 7th-level spell slot to cast.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats

Well that was a resounding consensus!

[Biggus]

Dammit, accidentally deleted my message. I understood the question to be "can I add heighten spell and empower spell to Fireball while still using a 5th-level spell slot?", but reading your question again, I might have misunderstood you. If you simply mean "can I add two metamagic feats to the same spell?" then the answer is yes.

(Edited for clarity)

[Mike Miller]

Yes, but heightened spell also raises the spell slot. Empower is +2 and heighten is +(# you want). In your example heighten spell isn't going to raise the DC unless you bring the spell up another slot.

[Rijan_Sai]

Yes, but heightened spell also raises the spell slot. Empower is +2 and heighten is +(# you want). In your example heighten spell isn't going to raise the DC unless you bring the spell up another slot.

So much this.

Consider the example of Fireball vs. Globe of Invulnerability: as a 3rd level spell, fireball could be metamagic’d to the Nine and back, and still plink off of the globe; Heightened to 5th, however, actually causes it to be a 5th level spell for all practical purposes, and will go through the globe.

Basically, most metamagic changes the spell-slot requirement, but does nothing to the actual level of the spell. Heighten changes the actual spell-level.

[Darrin]

Basically, most metamagic changes the spell-slot requirement, but does nothing to the actual level of the spell. Heighten changes the actual spell-level.

The question remains: can you use Heighten to change the original spell level, or only the effective spell level?

I am now thinking my original answer may not have been correct

[KillianHawkeye]

The question remains: can you use Heighten to change the original spell level, or only the effective spell level?

I am now thinking my original answer may not have been correct

As with all combinations of metamagic effects, they each apply separately (see for example the interaction between Empower and Maximize). While it doesn't really matter which order you apply metamagic feats in, for ease of understanding you should imagine the effect of Heighten Spell first.

Heighten Spell raises the actual level of a spell. The spell then uses a spell slot of the appropriate level. Any other metamagic feat which modifies the spell slot needed will operate that adjustment cumulatively with the change made by Heighten Spell.

[ericgrau]

It may seem like meta magic is only improving part of a spell up to a certain level. I mean you can get damage, save DC or some other effect, but not all at once. There are a couple great uses though:

(1) Use the metamagic that applies best to the spell. While heighten is a poor choice for fireball, an empowered fireball is almost as strong as a 5th level spell since a couple points of save DC doesn't make a huge difference. In many ways it is better, since it's hard to find a 5th level area spell with that much damage if it's available at all. Besides that one specific effect 5th level spells are usually better overall for other reasons. But if that one specific effect is what you want then that's not a problem.
(2) Metamagic effectively gives you many more spells known. All the combinations of metamagic on your existing spells known add many more options. In many cases another spell that replicates the metamagic version of a spell simply doesn't exist, giving an entirely new option. When that is true or when the high level spell is almost the same as the metamagic spell, it's better to use metamagic. Spontaneous casters like sorcerers benefit much more because their spells known are also spells prepared, giving them more options than they could otherwise have. Whereas prepared casters like wizards don't get more unique spells prepared with metamagic. Something like heighten is too weak for me to bother with it on a prepared caster, but on a spontaneous caster I might consider it as his 3rd or 4th metamagic. Though it's further down the list if I have a lot of books allowed with other metamagic feat options.

[Scottlang]

So what you are saying, just to confirm, that if I, as one said heightened is not a good metamagic feat (I call bs on), in conjuction with others, ie, let's take a fireball as that's easiest....
Let's say, maximised (3 slots higher) embowerd (2 slots higher) so at 8th level spell, we are doing a total of 135 damage (15d6 x 1.5) with a DC of let's say 23 (int bonus of +10 let's say for s&g's) is not that good at level 15... But as the heighten spell states:
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level... As you have pushed the spell that high, just changes the DC to 28... Makes it more of a worthy fireball...

I am able to do it?? Or are you saying I can't due to it then pushing it beyond 9th?? But in the order of maximise, then empowered then heightened, not Heightened 1st then max and empowered....

[Mike Miller]

Heighten does not work concurrently with other metamagic feats. You can't use maximize and heighten for a total of +3 to the spell level (as you are trying). If you wanted to add 3 to the DC with heighten and maximize your fireball, you are looking at a spell level of 9.