RAW question on Moonbeam

[KOLE]

Greetings playground,

A friend of mine just started DMing his first campaign which I am a player in. I’ve done some DMing so he’s asked me to “co-DM”, in the strictly limited capacity of clearing up rules as he’s not super familiar with the system. I agreed and its mostly been a non issue.

My own campaigns don’t often have full casters, as my players gravitate most towards “Tolkienesque” characters and don’t like the book keeping that casting entails, so I’m a little rusty on spell rulings. Our party has a druid at level 3 who dropped a Moonbeam and almost singlehandedly mopped up the encounter. I examined the spell closely, the wording is a bit ambiguous, but are you supposed to be able to damage enemies outside of their turn? The druid summoned the moonbeam and spent every action afterward sweeping across the battlefield, practically nuking the opposition as he damaged everybody it passed over. My gut tells me this is hella overpowered for 2nd level, and that the damage is only caused on the enemy’s turn. It feels more like a control spell than a disk 1 nuke. Is there a RAW case for that or am I being the grump here? I’ll admit my Fighter whiffed every attack save one through both encounters that night, so I’m trying mot to let that effect me or make me bitter. I also understand that Moonbeam eats the casters action and their concentration; these are significant costs but man oh man was this spell potent.

[sithlordnergal]

No, it wouldn't do damage outside of a creature's turn. The creature would have to either enter the Moonbeamed area of their own accord, which causes the damage, or start their turn in it, like if the Caster positions it on top of the target.

[Tanarii]

Depends on how you rule "enters".

Some people interpret it to mean the creature must enter the moonbeam, so moving the moonbeam across a creature does not do any good. You can move in onto creatures so they start their turn in it of course. I believe this is the most common ruling I've seen.

Some people interpret "enters" to mean either creature or moonbeam moving.

Also as a side note, I've seen a DM rule that "move 60ft in any direction" must all be in a straight line, albeit in any direction. But that DM also ruled moving the beam over a creature damaged it, so it may have been damage control, so to speak.

I don't have the Sage Advice compendium handy, but you might want to check it.

This isn't e first edition where "enters" and "moves into" have been contentious phrasing. Really the PHB needs a clear definition for that in a glossary of terms. English can be a mighty imprecise language at time. :smallamused:

[Zuras]

Normally Moonbeam is ruled that the creature must do the moving to “enter” the Moonbeam. Moving the Moonbeam only affects the 10’ radius it covers after moving. If moving the spell location did damage, Clerics could kill everything with Spirit Guardians is a heartbeat.

The damage isn’t only during the creature’s turn, though. If you can drag a creature into the Moonbeam on your turn (with thorn whip, for example) it will trigger the damage.

[KOLE]

This is what I suspected, I'll let the DM know. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't being a grouch here. It's still pretty dang good as is, just not ridiculous.

[Merudo]

Depends on how you rule "enters".

Some people interpret it to mean the creature must enter the moonbeam, so moving the moonbeam across a creature does not do any good. You can move in onto creatures so they start their turn in it of course. I believe this is the most common ruling I've seen.

Some people interpret "enters" to mean either creature or moonbeam moving.

Does your game world follows either Einstein's theory of special relativity or Newtonian mechanics?

If so, all inertial reference frames are equivalent. So whatever a creature "goes into" the moonbeam area or the moonbeam "moves over" the creature is just an arbitrary distinction based on which inertial reference frame the observer happens to prefer.

[DrKerosene]

This is what I suspected, I'll let the DM know. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't being a grouch here. It's still pretty dang good as is, just not ridiculous.

Yeah, it’s a pretty solid spell to keep on hand.

However, I’ve seen Chris Perkins allow the same interpretation in the series Dice, Camera, Action when doing some Tomb of Annihilation stuff.

If your DM wants to use Moonbeam as an excuse to wrap up an encounter that is past the cool start and into a grind, that’s fine.

[Aquillion]

Normally Moonbeam is ruled that the creature must do the moving to “enter” the Moonbeam. Moving the Moonbeam only affects the 10’ radius it covers after moving. If moving the spell location did damage, Clerics could kill everything with Spirit Guardians is a heartbeat.

The damage isn’t only during the creature’s turn, though. If you can drag a creature into the Moonbeam on your turn (with thorn whip, for example) it will trigger the damage.Also note that while Moonbeam passing over you without stopping won't damage you, you passing through Moonbeam without stopping obviously will.

Yes, it doesn't make sense (outside of meta-balance reasons.) Just roll with it.

I've also seen some people houserule the moonbeam as doing damage to people it's moved onto immediately raher than at start of turn. This alters its functionality a bit, but not as drastically as the error described above, and makes it slightly easier to track because it means the damage mostly happens during the turn of the caster (who is probably the person most "focused" on it.)

[Reynaert]

What about the 'for the first time' qualifier on entering the beam?
That means the caster can sweep al he wants but it will only hurt each creature once.

[Aimeryan]

What about the 'for the first time' qualifier on entering the beam?
That means the caster can sweep al he wants but it will only hurt each creature once.

I don't think they are talking about multiple instances of damage per turn, merely that the average 11 damage (half on a save) is too high for a 2nd level spell. Fireball is a 3rd level spell and only does an average 28 damage (half on a save)!

[DrKerosene]

What about the 'for the first time' qualifier on entering the beam?
That means the caster can sweep all he wants but it will only hurt each creature once.

I think it’s the same as forced movement vs. a creature running away due to a fear effect, it works on the turn of that creature.

Healing Spirit would be a much more powerful spell due to similar wording. If your DM lets you sweep the ability over a bunch of creatures on your turn and affect them, cool, but I expect an inevitable nerf.

[DarkKnightJin]

I think it’s the same as forced movement vs. a creature running away due to a fear effect, it works on the turn of that creature.

Healing Spirit would be a much more powerful spell due to similar wording. If your DM lets you sweep the ability over a bunch of creatures on your turn and affect them, cool, but I expect an inevitable nerf.

In such a case, I would allow the Moonbeam to act like a 'Kill Sat' of sorts that damages creatures ot passes over on the caster's turn, and whenever someone is dumb or unlucky enough to move through it outside of the caster's turn. Effectively removing the 'starts its turn' clause, I suppose, just to avoid doubling down on the damage dealt.

So, they get a choice. Kill Sat without 'start of turn' damage, or something that requires positioning to get the most out of it.
And yes, allies and the caster would be subject the spell if it moves over their space if they pick the 'Kill Sat' option.

[Lunali]

The damage only occurs when the creature enters the moonbeam, not if the moonbeam moves over the creature. The damage from the moonbeam moving is handled by the part about if the creature starts its turn in the beam.

However, it is possible to damage a creature multiple times in a round with moonbeam if you can force them to enter the area multiple times on different turns.

[Chronos]

If you insist on a simulationist explanation for why it doesn't trigger when the beam moves onto a creature: It's like a candle, that flickers and weakens while it's moving, but then strengthens again while it's standing still.

You can still potentially get damage many times a round out of it, if a lot of your allies have ways to force enemies to move (like grappling, shoving, Thorn Whip, or repelling Eldritch Blast): If, every round, someone forces a creature into the beam and back out of it, then they'll take damage on every one of those turns. In which case, the extra damage is your reward for teamwork, cooperation, and good tactics.

[Xetheral]

I don't think they are talking about multiple instances of damage per turn, merely that the average 11 damage (half on a save) is too high for a 2nd level spell. Fireball is a 3rd level spell and only does an average 28 damage (half on a save)!

Balance-wise, it would seem to me to be entirely reasonable for a second level spell to, after three rounds of concentrating and spending three bonus actions, manage to deal as much damage as a third level spell can do in one turn with no concentration.

On the other hand, that interpretation of Moonbeam puts Flaming Sphere to shame.

[Tanarii]

On the other hand, that interpretation of Moonbeam puts Flaming Sphere to shame.
On the gripping claw, they're different as area control spells anyway. Flaming sphere doesn't harm creatures that move past it, just ones that stop next to it. It also blocks (occupies) it's space.

[Xetheral]

On the gripping claw, they're different as area control spells anyway. Flaming sphere doesn't harm creatures that move past it, just ones that stop next to it. It also blocks (occupies) it's space.

Good point. I was looking for an excuse to permit the more-relaxed interpretation of Moonbeam at my table, and you may have just removed my strongest objection.

(Also, it pleases me that enough people have read Niven/Pournelle that the "the gripping hand" sees use.)

[Aimeryan]

Balance-wise, it would seem to me to be entirely reasonable for a second level spell to, after three rounds of concentrating and spending three bonus actions, manage to deal as much damage as a third level spell can do in one turn with no concentration.

On the other hand, that interpretation of Moonbeam puts Flaming Sphere to shame.

I agree; especially since you can't move it on the turn you cast it.

Flaming Sphere uses a Bonus action, so it has that going for it.

[Xetheral]

I agree; especially since you can't move it on the turn you cast it.

Flaming Sphere uses a Bonus action, so it has that going for it.

I was incorrectly thinking Moonbeam was a bonus action too. Given that it requires actions instead, I will definitely permit Moonbeam to be an orbital death laser at my table.

[NaughtyTiger]

I didn't punch you, your face entered my fist

[bid]

Move through vs move to.

And it's 60', not "up to" 60'.

[Merudo]

And it's 60', not "up to" 60'.

It was updated to "up to" in the errata.