How to Pump Charisma

[StevenC21]

Hello all.

I need a way, that can come online at 10th level earliest, but Max by 15th, to pump charisma for a dread necromancer. I don't want his saving throw spells to become useless. I see so many threads where people say, "oh, it's easy you just need 34 int/Wis/Cha!" But the highest I can fathom would be 31, from +6 enhancement bonus, +5 inherent, base of 20.

How can you get higher?

[Zaq]

Remember that you get a stat increase every 4 HD. So you could have +2 over your starting point by level 8 and +3 by level 12.

Also remember that raw stats aren't the only ways to tilt the saving throw odds in your favor. Debuffs, for example, tend to work pretty nicely. Not every debuff will be appropriate to use in every situation, but it's not that hard to toss around the occasional shaken or sickened or similar, and every -2 adds up.

Also, sometimes saving throws (whether giving or receiving) just don't go the way you want. Part and parcel of using dice. Never bet the farm on a single saving throw when you have the choice.

Is it better if the enemy fails the first time? Obviously that's better, and it's worth doing what's reasonable and feasible to engineer that. But it's also normal and accepted that sometimes enemies just succeed. So you build around that: use abilities that don't use saves or that still suck for the target if they succeed on the saves. Use spells that target multiple enemies so your entire turn isn't wasted if a single d20 roll doesn't go in your favor. Keep enough defensive abilities around that, if the first spell fails, you can survive a turn and try again next round.

Stack the odds, but accept that they're still odds and you still might not succeed on every attempt. With clever tactics, you aren't a total failure of a character in most encounters if you don't land every single spell you launch. Sure, minimize how many you lose, but don't freak out about the last 5% or 10% if it's going to seriously cost you elsewhere in the build. (That's why I don't recommend aging characters just to bump up mental stats, for instance. Losing physical stats sucks even if you're not a frontline combatant. A dread necro might end up without a CON score, but losing DEX matters to every caster.)

[CharonsHelper]

Hello all.

I need a way, that can come online at 10th level earliest, but Max by 15th, to pump charisma for a dread necromancer. I don't want his saving throw spells to become useless. I see so many threads where people say, "oh, it's easy you just need 34 int/Wis/Cha!" But the highest I can fathom would be 31, from +6 enhancement bonus, +5 inherent, base of 20.

How can you get higher?

34 is easy.

18 base

+6 enhancement

+5 inherent

+5 from level-ups
=
34

If you start at 20 you can get up to 36.

[Calthropstu]

20 start
+6 enhancement
+5 inherent
+5 levels by lvl 20
+2 profane from succubus.

Alternatively, you can get an item with +6 sacred, +6 profane and other bonus types. Heck, you can add racial bonuses as well by starting as a high cr race such as a coatl or a succubus.

I wonder, can a succubus give herself a profane gift? Either way, you can get an additional +2 from one if you don't mind the whole suggestion thing.

[Pippin]

Nixie's Grace grants a +8 enhancement bonus to Charisma.
Fiends of Possession grant a +4 profane bonus to any ability score.

Just so you know, Charisma is very easy to boost as high as you want. Just use Polymorph and assume the shape of a tree. Have Awaken cast on you. You get an instantaneous +1d3 to Charisma, and two extra HD. Lose the two HD. (For example, receive two negative levels and never heal them.) Repeat. This trick is not my own, but I can't remember who came up with it for the first time.

[StevenC21]

Couldn't I get an actual level loss effect, instead of just not healing them? Like, extended Enervation to make it last 30 hours and force actual saves against level loss?

[Pippin]

It doesn't matter. Pun Pun is the limit, so this trick will never see play.

[Oberron]

If you are wanting to boost your spell DCs there are feats that do that. What is allowed for your game?

[StevenC21]

I'm the DM, actually.

I allow everything. Up to and including Dragon Magazine.

No Third party.

[Oberron]

Template stacking and venerable can add at least +7.
Magic-blooded, unseelie fey, venerable.
Ability enhancer feat can give a plus 2 to egle's splendor for a +6.

But if you want least amount of flipping through obscure book and zines then I would say become undead or have [evil] template and take a dip into a tainted sorcerer/scholar. It doesn't boost change but you use your taint score instead for all your spell casting and evil/undead are immune to the penalties of taint while gaining all the benefits.

[Crake]

20 start
+6 enhancement
+5 inherent
+5 levels by lvl 20
+2 profane from succubus.

Alternatively, you can get an item with +6 sacred, +6 profane and other bonus types. Heck, you can add racial bonuses as well by starting as a high cr race such as a coatl or a succubus.

I wonder, can a succubus give herself a profane gift? Either way, you can get an additional +2 from one if you don't mind the whole suggestion thing.

I think you mean lilitu, right? Since this is 3.5 not pathfinder?

[Biggus]

If you can get a Marshal and a Bard on your team they can boost you dramatically. A Marshal can give a circumstance bonus to your Cha equal to their own Cha, and a Bard can cast Snowsong. If you can get your UMD high enough you can also have a wand of Devil's Ego and scrolls of Nixie's Grace and Greater Visage of the Deity for special occasions, both of which stack with all of the above.

For a full list of how to boost Cha, see here: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.0

[Bphill561]

I had a sublime chord build that ended up with Charisma in the 70's with many of the spells already listed above. I think you can use similar tactics with Dread necromancer, but it will take a few extra steps.

Take ranks in Use Magic device. Then buy a custom rune staff with charisma augmenting spells. You can make a check to emulate class ability, notably the desired spells being on your spell list, and activate the staff to cast the spells yourself. I would take Lesser Holy Transformation (spell compendium), Sirines's Grace (spell compendium), Nixie's Grace (spell Compendium), Devil's Ego (Fiendish Codex II), and Inner Beauty (Fiendish Codex I).

Next Feats. Play a human (template if you desire) for the bonus feat.

L1: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell
L3: Sculpt Self (Dragon 304)
L6: Alternative Sourced Spell (Dragon Compendium)
L9: Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell
L10: Fell Energy Spell

Since you are DM and anything goes, feat shuffle (Shun/Embrace the dark chaos) your light armor feat for Fell Energy Spell (Dragon Compendium). Now Scult Self will cost you 4,000xp, but if you follow the mineral focus you will get the ability to cast soften earth and stone as a druid spell. This is not a spell like ability, it states you gain the ability to cast the spell. This allows you divine spell access to pick up alternative sourced spells to convert your arcane spells to divine for divine metamagic. Fell energy spell is a +1 adjustment that increases all numerical bonuses by +2 if the spell targets an undead creature.

Also pick up Shroud of Undead (spell compendium, level 2) from your advanced learning. This spell is necromancy and lets you count as undead for purposes of spells.

Now pile on all the spells and play an neutral alignment. Lesser holy transformation is to grant you the good subtype, making you count as good for purposes of spells and effects.

Lesser Holy Transformation (Fell): +4 Sacred bonus to Strength, Constitution, Saving throws + Good subtype and Fly (good) 60
Inner Beauty (Fell) +6 Sacred Bonus to Dex and Charisma
Sirine's Grace (Fell): +6 Enhancement bonus to Charisma and Dex, Cha to AC as deflection, swim speed, water breathing, and you can attack underwater
Nixie's Grace (Fell): +8 Enhancement Bonus to Charisma, +6 Dex, +4 Wisdom
Devils Ego (Fell): +6 Profane Bonus Charisma
Add Shroud of Undead afterwards to make type effectively undead, not outsider.

You can skip sirine's grace if you start out high enough to go straight to Nixie's grace, but it still gives you a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma. Greater Visage of the Deity kicks in later, but not until you get 9th level spells. So you could swap this spell into the staff, which would eliminate the need for Lesser Holy Transformation later. Again cast the good version of the spell for higher Cha bonus and the good subtype. If you really want to push it further, Spell focus Transmutation and Ability Enhancer (dragon compendium) feats give another +2 to all the above transmutation spells.

This process can be streamlined if you can take a cleric dip. Worship a neutral deity and play a neutral character, this will allow you to pick turn undead as a cleric and rebuke undead as a dread necromancer to double turns. Or better worship an ideal so you can select the Planning and Undeath Domain for Extend spell and Extra Turning. This saves you two feats as you can drop the sculpt self feat. This is quite compatible with dragonwrought kobold for increased ability scores and the alternative class feature turn dragons (which states it can be used for divine feats that require turn undead). You could also use a feat to pick up Flexible mind (dragon 326) that makes any two skills you have ranks in to always be considered class skills afterwards. More UMD or less skill points spent.

There are other fun spells like snowsong, a mind effecting spell that grants a +4 morale bonus to Cha, but this spell is stationary and takes more work to have it effect undead. Acorn of far travel and a rune circle...

[Mato]

Take spell focus(transmutation)Core, ability enhancerdragon comp, & fell energydragon comp and become a necropolitanLM. Then try to make usage of prestigious bardUA, arcane discipleCD, and dragonblood spellpactsDM with silver pyromancersfive nations. Alternatively you can use a runestaff to access limited wish to cast most of this stuff using XP. It's also possible to find a high enough warlock to simply constitute the necessary magic items (such as know stones) or if it's possible to UMD an effective artificer level with a schema of spell storing item to simply infuse the spells. Persist spell can be access using incantatrix (you or someone else), metamagic item on a staff or wand, tainted sorcerer, undead battery, and in some cases spelldancer. Through you could simply go the route of rapid buffing instead depending on your needs.

1. The base
Start with 18 charisma, pick a race with a +2 bonus for +0 LA or use magic-blooded (which can only be applied to phb's races), start as old for a +2 bonus to mental scores, and place all 5 increases from leveling into it. Then read a +5 tome of leadership & influence and get eaten by the worm of minaurosFCII for another +1. If pacts with devils are allow, you can forge a pact for another +1 otherwise you can go ahead with a venerable age.

2. The spells
Cast righteous auraSpC on your self.
4th level personal with 1hr/cl duration, +6 sacred to charisma.
Cast or persist nixe's graceSpC on your self.
6th level personal with a 10min/cl duration, +12 enhancement to charisma.
Cast or persist greater visage of the deitySpC on your self.
9th level personal with a 1rnd/cl duration, +8 unnamed to charisma.
Cast or persist devil's egoFCII on your self.
4th level personal with 1min/cl duration, +8 profane to charisma, changes your type to outsider.
Cast or persist snowsongFB.
6th level 30ft aura with 10min/cl duration, allies gain +4 moral to charisma, take 1/2 dmg, etc.

3. The items
You can snort a pile of luhixBoVD then heal the ability damage for a +2 alchemical bonus, beware it only works for a few hours a day. Then finally engage in the controversial topic to explain how you do not need to nail a metal ring to your fingers to use the UMD skill on the horse shoes of flameSS for another +6 unnamed. Catalogues of enlightenmentPH for the charm domain can also give you a +4 unnamed bonus once per day

This gives you up to 76 charisma making your save DCs 43+. It's possible to obtain a little more using templates and choosing races with level adjustment, or using manipulate form, and if you are willing to unoptimize your self for the sake of charisma you can trade away spellcasting for levels in classes that give extra increases (highly not advised or else the charisma is worthless). But this route gives several other unlisted bonuses as well. I'd also consider seeking out a way to cast sirine's graceSpC which allows you to add your charisma modifier as a deflection bonus to armor class. Also fyi, use icemail armor and dragonic aura(energy/cold) with snowcasting can also give a +6 bonus to your spell save DCs.

[RoboEmperor]

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/79962/how-to-achieve-the-highest-possible-charisma-at-20th-level

[Bphill561]

Cast righteous auraSpC on your self.
4th level personal with 1hr/cl duration, +6 sacred to charisma.
Cast or persist nixe's graceSpC on your self.
6th level personal with a 10min/cl duration, +12 enhancement to charisma.
Cast or persist greater visage of the deitySpC on your self.
9th level personal with a 1rnd/cl duration, +8 unnamed to charisma.
Cast or persist devil's egoFCII on your self.
4th level personal with 1min/cl duration, +8 profane to charisma, changes your type to outsider.
Cast or persist snowsongFB.
6th level 30ft aura with 10min/cl duration, allies gain +4 moral to charisma, take 1/2 dmg, etc]

3. The items
You can snort a pile of luhixBoVD then heal the ability damage for a +2 alchemical bonus, beware it only works for a few hours a day. Then finally engage in the controversial topic to explain how you do not need to nail a metal ring to your fingers to use the UMD skill on the horse shoes of flameSS for another +6 unnamed. Catalogues of enlightenmentPH for the charm domain can also give you a +4 unnamed bonus once per day


Righteous aura is nice despite not being transformation, my cleric, wizard, bard spell list character did not include that. Although recasting inner beauty several times a day keeps you from glowing and gives you Dex (if you can get the good subtype).

Be careful with snowsong. It is a mind effecting spell, which will not work on undead and if you are not undead you don't get the fell energy bonus. There is an addition song of the dead feat from the dragon compendium that changes the spell to only effect intelligent undead (so most of the enemy effects and living party bonuses are likely out). That is another +1 level adjustment.

I always try to change the slot or make my horse shoes slotless items. A hair ribbon of the flame seems fitting for a horse. The only problem is you gain the resemblance of a nightmare, and since the effect is based off of Polymorph it very well might make you a quadruped without arms or speech. Usually mixes best with psions, although the vest of the Naga can grant you some arms back and a pearl of speech your voice (magic item compendium).

I forgot to mention Kiss of the Vampire can come in handy later as an upgrade to Shroud of Undeath to keep you counting as undead for spells and effects.