Seeking help with Blood Hunter Profane Soul Crossbow Build

[rolan7]

Edit: Originally this post was about a Lycan Blood Hunter Crossbow Build, but after all the help from you guys and the Blood Hunter Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505473-Preparing-for-the-Hunt-A-Blood-Hunter-Handbook) I've decided to go with a Blood Hunter Profane Soul Crossbow Build, for a combo of sustainable DPR and casting. Here's the build:


Base stat rolls: 16,15,15,13,12,6

Stat Priorities: Best to Worst


DEX - "AC, damage, many skills, the ever so common dexterity saves, and of course, initiative." from BW Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505473-Preparing-for-the-Hunt-A-Blood-Hunter-Handbook)
WIS = Casting stat for profane
CON = Health
INT/CHA = For RP
STR = Dump Stat


With all bonuses at lvl 1 that looks like:


6 st, 17 dex, 15 con, 13 int, 16 wis, 12 cha
16 AC
+3 Init.
12 HP



Variant Human
Urban Bounty Hunter BG (fits the RP - stealth, deception and thieves tools)


Hand-crossbow with


Crossbow Expert feat at lvl 1 for bonus attack,
Sharpshooter feat at lvl 4 for the increased range and potential +10 dmg (-5 to hit)
Next focus on maxing Dex (or Res:Dex), and then Wisdom for ASIs thereafter



Patron: Archfey


"Great for archery builds, especially if feats are unavailable, and even then, the ability to cancel out invisibility for a turn is fantastic as well."
"Blur is a great spell to have in your pocket for melee and ranged combatants alike."

from BH Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505473-Preparing-for-the-Hunt-A-Blood-Hunter-Handbook)




Hey guys, I've looked everywhere for an experienced guide on lycan blood hunter crossbow builds.

I'll be starting a new campaign lvl 1-10 soon (currently the DM has not disclosed which one) but I like the surprise so the focus here will be more general sustainable DPR, as baddies and environments are unknown atm.

Having played a lot of moon druid, I can only expect the 2x lycan transformations at 10 mins will be short-lived, and my party tends to face many battles between rests, so I'd like to save those transformations and Rites for boss battles (mostly) and have something sustainable for the rest, hence the hand crossbow build for everything else.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Looks pretty good to me. It's essentially the standard Crossbow Fighter build with Bloodhunter goodies. It has pretty sustainable damage, as well as being pretty satisfying, especially in the early levels. The downside is that it's pretty reliant on things that either give you advantage, or increase your accuracy (bless and the like). For the Bloodhunter goodies, Rite Damage is just a scaling Divine Favor which will eventually outperform Hex/Hunter's Mark (especially considering it stays until your next short rest, which frees your bonus action at the start of combats). Curse of the Marked is good for when you really need something dead, but don't want to burn a shapeshift, or don't have a shapeshift to burn. Curse of the Eyeless is good for the team player.

Unless you have a dex half-feat you really want (Resilient: Dex?), you could start with 16 Dex/16 Wis, which would give you immediately better bloodlust saves, as well as better saves for things like Blood Curse of Binding or Spell Sunder, if you were interested in that. Might help you out early in the campaign since it would be level 8 by the time you'd be able to raise it.

For just level 1-10, there isn't much to improve here. You're a crossbow fighter that can surprise the hell out of enemies by mixing it up in melee as a werewolf when something really pisses you off, essentially becoming a dex based Frenzied Barbarian for a bit. The only real downsides are that you kind of have to choose which form you're going to fight as before the battle starts and stick to it. Transforming will drop the Rite damage on your crossbow, which you'll have to reup on your claws. Doing so after the battle starts means that you'll essentially spend your first turn doing nothing but self buffing before charging in. The 10 minute duration makes it a bit easier to plan, though.

[rolan7]

The downside is that it's pretty reliant on things that either give you advantage, or increase your accuracy (bless and the like).

Even with maxed dex, the bonus to hit just isn't enough? Good to know.




For the Bloodhunter goodies, Rite Damage is just a scaling Divine Favor which will eventually outperform Hex/Hunter's Mark (especially considering it stays until your next short rest, which frees your bonus action at the start of combats). Curse of the Marked is good for when you really need something dead, but don't want to burn a shapeshift, or don't have a shapeshift to burn. Curse of the Eyeless is good for the team player.

My thoughts exactly.




Unless you have a dex half-feat you really want (Resilient: Dex?), you could start with 16 Dex/16 Wis, which would give you immediately better bloodlust saves, as well as better saves for things like Blood Curse of Binding or Spell Sunder, if you were interested in that. Might help you out early in the campaign since it would be level 8 by the time you'd be able to raise it.

Ah thats smart. So next feat after sharpshooter (lvl8) should be res:dex - for the prof bonus and evened dex score, and not ASI's?




The only real downsides are that you kind of have to choose which form you're going to fight as before the battle starts and stick to it. Transforming will drop the Rite damage on your crossbow, which you'll have to reup on your claws. Doing so after the battle starts means that you'll essentially spend your first turn doing nothing but self buffing before charging in. The 10 minute duration makes it a bit easier to plan, though.

Yes I considered that. Unfortunately, our games tend to give no certainty of an upcoming battle. That's fun! But, it means I'll never want to chance a pre-transform, so I expect to have that delay in-battle - and only use when I need it.

[Edit: bad idea] Side note, am I right in thinking that I could transform, use one hand to shoot and the other to claw attack? That way I don't need to lose that rite. It could open some interesting dynamics. Yes, I'd still need to rite the claw, but is this possible? The description states: "You can speak, use equipment, and wear armor in this form." Also: "Crimson rite can be used on multiple weapons, costing additional hit point loss."

Alternatively, I've always wanted to know, what does a Lycan do who's weilding objects when they want to use claws? Is a free-action required to put away/sheath those items? Or do players not worry about this? Knowing my games, my DM will likely say "what happened to your crossboow?" :smallconfused:

Thanks Mike!

[Ventruenox]

Lycan is typically more of a melee build, but go for your character concept. If you intend on riting up both your claws and your crossbow, that will be double rite damage to you, a big liability. The bonus action claw attack will require melee range, competing with your Crossbow Expert bonus action attack. Ghost Slayer is the only order that mechanically aims for having more than one active rite.

Tough is seriously a feat worth consideration. The HP boost offsets the rite damage.

[rolan7]

That's true. A double rite is a big hit.



Lycan is typically more of a melee build

Open to ideas. I like the excuse for some close range melee, but what other BH Order would your suggest with crossbow?



Tough is seriously a feat worth consideration. The HP boost offsets the rite damage.

I considered it, but since Lycan transform will be a rare thing, you think the non-transformed rite crossbow BH also really needs that HP boost? If so, where in the order of feats would you take it? Lvl 8? Is it more important than maxing Dex?

[Dr. Cliché]

One issue I'm seeing is that (unless I'm mistaken) Hand-Crossbow builds generally rely on wielding two Hand-Crossbows. This would obviously require 2 uses of Crimson Rite.

Might be better to just use a single Heavy Crossbow.


Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about not having Crimson Rite active on your hands most of the time. It's not going to be your main method of attack anyway.

[rolan7]

One issue I'm seeing is that (unless I'm mistaken) Hand-Crossbow builds generally rely on wielding two Hand-Crossbows. This would obviously require 2 uses of Crimson Rite. Might be better to just use a single Heavy Crossbow.

You need a hand free with this xbow build to load it, so just 1, and the feat synergizes with hand crossbow in particular. It all sounds a bit odd at first, but it's a well known combo, and the most expensive crossbow despite being the weakest. In terms of rp it's also the smallest and most concealable.

The result gives multi attacks, ignore 5ft close range disadvantage, ignore long range disadvantage, and option to add +10 DMG per attack at cost of -5hit, coupled with BH extra attack at lvl 5, etc. So it pumps out more than a heavy xbow in the end.




Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about not having Crimson Rite active on your hands most of the time. It's not going to be your main method of attack anyway.

Yeah exactly

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Even with maxed dex, the bonus to hit just isn't enough? Good to know.

...

Ah thats smart. So next feat after sharpshooter (lvl8) should be res:dex - for the prof bonus and evened dex score, and not ASI's?

...


[Edit: bad idea] Side note, am I right in thinking that I could transform, use one hand to shoot and the other to claw attack? That way I don't need to lose that rite. It could open some interesting dynamics. Yes, I'd still need to rite the claw, but is this possible? The description states: "You can speak, use equipment, and wear armor in this form." Also: "Crimson rite can be used on multiple weapons, costing additional hit point loss."

Alternatively, I've always wanted to know, what does a Lycan do who's weilding objects when they want to use claws? Is a free-action required to put away/sheath those items? Or do players not worry about this? Knowing my games, my DM will likely say "what happened to your crossboow?" :smallconfused:

Thanks Mike!

If you take the Archery style, you'll have a +2 to hit from 1-5 and a +3 to hit 'til level 9 (+4 if you boosted your DEX at 8). It's a like a character with 14 DEX who didn't take the archery style. It's definitely workable, but you'll have the occasional big whifs without any way to correct them (Battle Master's Precision Attacks/War God's Blessing/etc.). In general, you'll still be putting out enough damage and have enough attacks that it won't feel as bad, but you'll want to befriend someone that can give you a boost.

If you're not worried about evening out your WIS score, then Resilient: Dex is definitely a way to go, in order to get some benefits on the way to maxing out your DEX. If your plan was to take a split ASI for +1 DEX/+1 WIS at level 8, just even them both out at 16/16 now, then take a +2 DEX at 8, so that you have the benefits of the extra WIS for the first 8 levels of your career.

You'll have to ask the DM about if he considers your Claw a one-handed weapon. Unfortunately, for Crossbow Expert, the bonus action attack requires a one-handed weapon attack before you can use it and the Lycan claws require an unarmed strike before you can use the bonus claw attack. It essentially looks like you're stuck either doing Claw -> Bonus Action Claw or Crossbow Shot -> Bonus Action Shot. At least until you get Extra Attack, at which point you can attack once with claws, once with crossbow, then use whatever bonus follow up you want to. Since you have Crossbow Expert, though, honestly, you can just shift, then rush in and continue attacking in melee range with it. You don't get disadvantage for being in melee with a ranged attack, so you'd literally just boost your survivability with werewolf form, then continue to take sharpshooter shots into their face. Might even work out better for you if your DM uses flanking rules and allows your Crossbow to get the advantage bonus.

[Dr. Cliché]

You need a hand free with this xbow build to load it, so just 1, and the feat synergizes with hand crossbow in particular. It all sounds a bit odd at first, but it's a well known combo, and the most expensive crossbow despite being the weakest. In terms of rp it's also the smallest and most concealable.

The result gives multi attacks, ignore 5ft close range disadvantage, ignore long range disadvantage, and option to add +10 DMG per attack at cost of -5hit, coupled with BH extra attack at lvl 5, etc. So it pumps out more than a heavy xbow in the end.

Sorry but could you explain this to me because I'm getting really confused. If you're only using 1 Hand Crossbow, don't you lose out on the benefit of the Crossbow Expert feat (I was under the impression that you have to be attacking with a weapon other than the crossbow itself to get the benefit)?

Further, I assume that the +10 DMG is from Sharpshooter but I don't see why you couldn't just use that with a Light or Heavy Crossbow for even greater damage.

I assume I'm missing something, so if you could elaborate a little more it would be greatly appreciated.

[Ventruenox]

Sorry but could you explain this to me because I'm getting really confused. If you're only using 1 Hand Crossbow, don't you lose out on the benefit of the Crossbow Expert feat (I was under the impression that you have to be attacking with a weapon other than the crossbow itself to get the benefit?
...
I assume I'm missing something, so if you could elaborate a little more it would be greatly appreciated.

The Crossbow Expert feat specifies attacking with a one-handed weapon to get a bonus action shot with a hand crossbow. So, using the same hand crossbow is valid under RAW.

Using the Lycan order as a defensive tactic while focusing your offensive abilities at range is a perfectly viable and strong strategy. My own preference would be for Ghost Slayer for radiant damage and lesser HP loss, or Profane Soul for cantrip utility, but that's just my playstyle.

[rolan7]

Sorry but could you explain this to me because I'm getting really confused. If you're only using 1 Hand Crossbow, don't you lose out on the benefit of the Crossbow Expert feat (I was under the impression that you have to be attacking with a weapon other than the crossbow itself to get the benefit)?

Further, I assume that the +10 DMG is from Sharpshooter but I don't see why you couldn't just use that with a Light or Heavy Crossbow for even greater damage.

No worries, this also had me confused and at first, I wondered why on earth would anyone take less than the most powerful crossbow. I'll post my sources:



Jeremy Crawford (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/524703008718721024)


Crossbow Expert does allow a character to shoot a hand crossbow as an action and again as a bonus action.



This tweet answer was later included in the Sage Advice Compendium (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf):


Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and then fire it again as a bonus action? It does! Take a look at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand crossbow between the two attacks.



Further, the other crossbows are NOT one-handed. Even the "Light" Crossbow, despite it's name, is considered two-handed (https://www.dndbeyond.com/equipment/crossbow-light).

Hence why the entire build revolves around the hand crossbow. Yes, I could take sharpshooter with the other crossbows but I'd miss out on the crossbow expert pairing.

The original source of inspiration with more info is outlined here on Reddit: How to build an optimized character: Crossbow Fighter (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/66v9yr/how_to_build_an_optimized_character_crossbow/)

[rolan7]

Using the Lycan order as a defensive tactic while focusing your offensive abilities at range is a perfectly viable and strong strategy. My own preference would be for Ghost Slayer for radiant damage and lesser HP loss, or Profane Soul for cantrip utility, but that's just my playstyle.

Ok I'll explore those once more.

[Dr. Cliché]

The Crossbow Expert feat specifies attacking with a one-handed weapon to get a bonus action shot with a hand crossbow. So, using the same hand crossbow is valid under RAW.

What confused me is that the feat specifies a "loaded hand crossbow".

I'd have thought that if you fired a hand crossbow it would - by definition - no longer be loaded and thus wouldn't be eligible. :smallconfused:

Apparently this isn't the correct interpretation but it seems a very odd way of phrasing it.

[rolan7]

If you take the Archery style, you'll have a +2 to hit from 1-5 and a +3 to hit 'til level 9 (+4 if you boosted your DEX at 8). It's a like a character with 14 DEX who didn't take the archery style. It's definitely workable, but you'll have the occasional big whifs without any way to correct them (Battle Master's Precision Attacks/War God's Blessing/etc.). In general, you'll still be putting out enough damage and have enough attacks that it won't feel as bad, but you'll want to befriend someone that can give you a boost.
Yes I could def play that, but often players have their hands full so I don't want to rely on their buffs. I might still stick to crossbow feats first, then your suggested res:dex.




If you're not worried about evening out your WIS score, then Resilient: Dex is definitely a way to go, in order to get some benefits on the way to maxing out your DEX. If your plan was to take a split ASI for +1 DEX/+1 WIS at level 8, just even them both out at 16/16 now, then take a +2 DEX at 8, so that you have the benefits of the extra WIS for the first 8 levels of your career.
Hmm I think I need to play this out, good point. I'll run some tests and post my preference and reasoning.




You'll have to ask the DM about if he considers your Claw a one-handed weapon. Unfortunately, for Crossbow Expert, the bonus action attack requires a one-handed weapon attack before you can use it and the Lycan claws require an unarmed strike before you can use the bonus claw attack. It essentially looks like you're stuck either doing Claw -> Bonus Action Claw or Crossbow Shot -> Bonus Action Shot. At least until you get Extra Attack, at which point you can attack once with claws, once with crossbow, then use whatever bonus follow up you want to. Since you have Crossbow Expert, though, honestly, you can just shift, then rush in and continue attacking in melee range with it. You don't get disadvantage for being in melee with a ranged attack, so you'd literally just boost your survivability with werewolf form, then continue to take sharpshooter shots into their face. Might even work out better for you if your DM uses flanking rules and allows your Crossbow to get the advantage bonus.

While our DM is allowing homebrew class, I'll try to avoid asking for special requests.

Agreed, claw or bolt, not both. Bad idea to mix.

Yes, we use flanking. Another great idea of yours!

[rolan7]

Apparently this isn't the correct interpretation but it seems a very odd way of phrasing it.

Crawford (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/558356637937725440) later went on to say

"The feat is, without a doubt, murky. It's on my list of things to clear up in a future printing."

[rolan7]

Update: I've revised first post to reflect the new build I'm going with if anyone's interested. Reasons I dropped the Lycan Crossbow idea:

2 rites was too wasteful and time consuming
BH is already MAD, and using feats on Crossbow did nothing for Lycan
Crossbow and Lycan didn't feel synergistic


Thanks everyone.