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Great Dragon
2019-04-21, 12:25 AM
As the title implies, I liked the 2e Council of Wyrms setting, and was thinking about a way to do this for 5e. I placed this here (instead of in World Building) since it deals with game-based mechanics.
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I would most likely be doing HD=Lv: but what I'm not sure about is - if this is balanced enough without needing to add a "Level Adjustment" modifier.

The Breath Weapon isn't too big a deal, since the "odds" are actually a little less likely to get back than 3x D&D's 1d4 rounds.

Types of Dragons are not really balanced between each other.

Take Silver Dragon Wyrmling:
Looks like HP = 1d8 + Con mod per HD, so not a problem. 6 HD.

Immune to Cold, but not Vulnerable to Fire?

Blindsight 10 ft, and Darkvision 60 ft, no problem.

I can break the Breath Weapon's 4d6 damage between the 6 HD.

Multi-attack would unlock at 5 HD.

But here is the main problem:
+8 Str, +6 Con, +2 Int, and +4 Cha.
(Using the 3x method for figuring out racial ability modifiers)

Even putting 8 Str, 10 Con, 14 Int, and 12 Cha means that four of six stats are 16.
Point Buy gives at least one more 16 (Wis), and (I think) a 15 (Dex).

Even at level one, this would far outweigh any base Race PC.

I suppose that making the abilities be like a Mountain Dwarf (+2 Str and +2 Con) could be done, making a huge difference between a Wild Dragon and a PC Dragon.

Now, a Young Silver Dragon has 16 HD, so the PC would not increase their Draconic power until then, and taking Class Levels delays gaining them.

However, I was thinking that Dragons could be treated as being like Dragonborn, giving +2 to any one stat, and a +1 to another state based on Dragon Type; and including breath weapon 1x Short Rest (improved breath at 6 HD for recharge on 5-6?). While Dragons getting their Breath more often than Dragonborn, it usually does less damage.
Edit: At higher level, the Dragon's Breath does more damage, but the Dragonborn has Class Levels for balance.

Use a feat for each movement type (flight, burrow, swim) over 30 feet.

Now, I expect HD/Class Multiclassing, but few Dragons would dip more than 1-3 levels so as to still get full benefit from their Dragon's Young Category?

Now, is this close enough to being Balanced that playing a Dragon PC is cool, without making the “normal” Races (including Dragonborn) being viewed as being “worthless”?

Anything I'm overlooking?

JNAProductions
2019-04-21, 08:06 PM
I would NOT map HD to Level. HD is used, for monsters, to determine HP. Nothing more.

Edit: I'm quite interested in this, though.

Great Dragon
2019-04-22, 09:05 AM
I would NOT map HD to Level. HD is used, for monsters, to determine HP. Nothing more.

For Dragon PCs, I was thinking about not just HD=HP, but also being used for calculation of Proficiency bonus total.

Also, the Dragon PC can get the ASI/feat option at every 4 HD. Yes, this means 20th HD for that last ASI/feat! Normal Multiclassing rules apply.

Dragon Skill would be: Perception.
Additional skills granted by each Dragon.
(Gold, White, Amathyst, etc)
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Would you map CR to Level, instead?
The problem I have is that the Sliver Dragon example is a CR 2, with 6 HD.

I would have trouble basing it on just CR.


JNAProductions: Edit: I'm quite interested in this, though.
Thanks!!

JNAProductions
2019-04-22, 11:52 AM
Honestly, I think you’re gonna have to make dragon classes. They can be more powerful than normal classes, but should be balanced against each other.

I’m out and about right now, but I might take a stab at it later.

Great Dragon
2019-04-22, 04:48 PM
I am very interested in the Dragon Classes.

JNAProductions
2019-04-22, 09:59 PM
HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 2d12
Hit Points at 1st Level: 24+2*Con Mod
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 2d12 (13)+2*Con Mod

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: None
Weapons: Natural Weapons
Tools: None

Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Skills: Choose two from Athletics, Stealth, Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Insight, Perception, Survival, Intimidation, and Persuasion

Brute Dragon


Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Breath Attack


1st
+2
Brute Weapons, Breath Attack, Natural Defense
1d6


2nd
+2
Subclass
3d6


3rd
+2
Multiattack
4d6


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
6d6


5th
+3
Improved Brute Weapons
7d6


6th
+3
Subclass Feature
9d6


7th
+3
Multiattack II
10d6


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
12d6


9th
+4
Improved Breath Attack
13d6


10th
+4
Subclass Feature
15d6


11th
+4
Multiattack III
16d6


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
18d6


13th
+5
Greater Brute Weapons
19d6


14th
+5
Subclass Feature
21d6


15th
+5
Multiattack IV
22d6


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
24d6


17th
+6
Greater Breath Attack
25d6


18th
+6
Subclass Feature
27d6


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement
28d6


20th
+6
Multiattack V
30d6



Brute Weapons
At level one, you gain the following weapons:
-A Bite attack, which is 2d10 piercing damage with a reach of 10'
-Two Claw attacks, which are 2d6 slashing with a reach of 10' and are considered Light weapons
-A Tail attack, which is 2d8 bludgeoning damage with a reach of 15'
-Two Wing attacks, which are 2d4 bludgeoning damage with a reach of 10' and are considered Light weapons

At level five, your natural attacks now count as magical.

And at level thirteen, you increases the die size of all your natural weapons by one step.

Breath Attack
At level one, you also gain a breath attack, dealing elemental damage of the appropriate type. It may be used a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier, and deals the damage indicated on the table in a 30' cone or 60' line. Uses recharge after a long rest. A Constitution or Dexterity save (depending on the element) may be attempted to halve the damage, with a DC of 8+your Constitution modifier+your proficiency modifier.

At level nine, uses recharge after a short or long rest, and the size increases to a 45' cone or 90' line.

At level seventeen, you may regain a use of a breath attack with an action, and the size increases to a 60' cone or 120' line.

Natural Defense
Finally at level one, you gain Natural Defense. Your AC may equal 10+your Strength modifier+your Constitution modifier. When using this for your AC, you must include your Dexterity modifier if it is a penalty-otherwise ignore it.

Subclass
At level two, pick your subclass, Hoarder or Warrior. This grants you features at levels two, six, ten, fourteen, and eighteen.

Multiattack
At level three, you may attack with up to two separate natural weapons when you take the Attack action.

This increases to three at level seven, four at level eleven, five at level fifteen, and six (or all of them) at level twenty.

Ability Score Improvement
Usual levels, NOT the usual deal. You may increase your Strength and Constitution up to 24 with ASIs from this class, though all other stats are limited to 20 when using these ASIs.

A Dragon's Hoard
At level two, you may create a hoard. In addition to allowing you a place to store your massive amounts of goods, you may also store magic items there. You may gain the benefits of a magic item in your hoard and not on your person by attuning to it, so long as it does not usually require attunement.

Adaptable Hoard
At level six, you may attune to items that would usually be impossible for a dragon to use. For instance, a +2 Warhammer could be attuned to in order to gain its magic on a single natural attack of your choice.

Improved Hoard
At level ten, you may now use items that normally require attunement from your hoard.

Greater Hoard
At level fourteen, non-attunement items may be used so long as they are in your hoard, no longer requiring attunement.

Perfect Hoard
At level eighteen, your attunement limit increases to five.

Fighting Style
At level two, you may pick any fighting style. If you choose Protection, your wings may be used instead of a shield, and if you choose Defense, you are always treated as wearing armor for its bonus.

Improved Critical
At level six, you score a critical on a roll of 19-20 with your natural weapons.

Second Fighting Style
At level ten, you gain a second fighting style of your choice.

Greater Critical
At level fourteen, you score a critical on a roll of 18-20 with your natural weapons.

Action Surge
At level eighteen, once per short rest, you may take a second action on your turn.

Great Dragon
2019-04-22, 10:25 PM
That is very nice!
However, I might lower HD to 1d12 and give Alternate Form, which I forgot to include before.

In my games, all Dragons were given this by IO to increase survival of non-metalic dragons. Metallic regain use after a short rest, all others after a long rest.

Got one for Casters?
I could see Subclasses split between Arcane (Charisma; choosing from both Sorcerer and Wizard lists) and Divine (Wisdom; choosing from both Cleric and Druid lists).

Here is my Idea:
Caster
HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d10
Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 +2*Con Mod
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (6) +2*Con Mod

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: None
Weapons: Bite.
Tools: None

Saving Throws: Intelligence, Charisma.
Skills: Choose two from: Deception, Stealth, Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Insight, Perception, Survival, Intimidation, and Persuasion

LV Features
01 One Cantrip
02 Subclass Two Cantrips.
03 1st level spells
04 Ability Increase
05 2nd level spells
06 Subclass Feature
07 3rd level spells
08 Ability Increase
09 4th level spells
10 Subclass Feature
11 5th level spells
12 Ability Increase
13 6th level spells
14 Subclass Feature
15 7th level spells
16 Ability Increase
17 8th level spells
18 Subclass Feature
19 9th level spells
20 Ability Increase


Casting ability: Cha
Choose from Sorcerer and Wizard lists.
Spells Known: Level + Cha

Second Level: Able to cast a spell with the verbal component without speaking. Once per short rest.

Sixth Level: Able to cast a spell with the somatic component without moving.. Once per short rest.

Tenth Level: Able to cast a spell with the material component without them. Once per short rest.

Fourteenth Level: Double the Range of all spells.
Touch spells have a Range of 20 feet.

Eighteenth Level: Able to impose Disadvantage on saves to a number of creatures equal to Intelligence modifier. Once per long rest.


Casting ability: Wis
Choose from Cleric and Druid lists.
Spells Known: Level + Cha

Second Level: Able to change your Breath Weapon from Cone to Line, or reverse.
Once per short rest.

Sixth Level: Able to Twin a single target spell. Once per short rest.

Tenth Level: Sacrifice a spell slot to add damage matching your Breath Weapon type to your Bite attack. +1d6 per level.

Fourteenth Level: Sacrifice a spell slot to create an Aura that deals damage to all creatures within 5 feet of you. 1d8 per level.

Eighteenth Level: Sacrifice a spell slot to cause your Breath Weapon to deal either Radiant or Necrotic damage.

(I'm not good at making grids, and my phone limits other options)

More?

Great Dragon
2019-04-26, 01:15 PM
Next


Gem Dragons.

Amethyst dragon
Breath weapon: Line of force

Crystal dragon
Breath weapon: Line of blinding light

Emerald dragon
Breath weapon: Powerful burst of wind.

Sapphire dragon
Breath weapon: Cone of panicking sound

Topaz dragon
Breath weapon: Cone of dehydration
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Gem Dragonborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591872-Gem-Dragonborn-and-Psionic-Feats&p=24019907#post24019907)

I liked the idea of Dragonwrought Kobolds.

But, I'm not sure how to really make them different from being the Kobold version of Dragonborn?

+2 Cha, +1 Dex. 60 foot Darkvision.
No Sunlight sensitivity.
No Pack Tactics.

Instead of Breath Weapons, give them Immunity to one Energy damage type and Vulnerability to another?

Black: Acid; Thunder
Blue: Lightning; Poison
Green:Poison; Psychic
Red: Fire; Frost
White: Frost; Radiant

Brass: Psychic; Thunder
Bronze: Lightning; Poison
Copper: Acid; Force.
Gold: Fire; Necrotic
Silver: Frost; Fire.

Gem Dragonwrought Kobold
Amethyst (Resistant to Force); Thunder

Crystal Blinded; Necrotic

Emerald Thunder; Lightning

Sapphire Fear; Force

Topaz Dehydration; Acid

Racial Feat: Urd.
30 foot flight and +1 Dex
******************************
I'm basically treating Half-Dragons as first-generation Dragonborn or Dragonwrought.

Great Dragon
2019-05-04, 09:27 AM
I'm thinking about reading up on Dragonmarked, and seeing if that can be added.

SlvrDragonCleri
2019-05-07, 10:54 PM
So... my DM and I actually put together a Silver Dragon Wyrmling (and also Young Silver Dragon) that I am currently playing in 5e. Granted, I have an awesome DM, but if interested, I'd be happy to link my character. It's basically looking at the 5e Silver Dragon, and pulling forward a lot of 3.5 info from Draconomicon.

Great Dragon
2019-05-07, 11:43 PM
That would be great.

It would allow me to see how your DM did the conversion with any mechanics involved, and you could put in updates on what all your Dragon did, and any grey areas you find.


Epic
HD 21 Lair Actions
HD 22 1st Legendary Action
HD 23 1st Legendary Resistance
HD 24 2nd Legendary Action
HD 26 2nd Legendary Resistance
HD 28 3rd Legendary Action
HD 29 3rd Legendary Resistance
HD 30 Boon

Dang - Dead Thread.
No playtesters as of yet.

Anyone interested in chatting about this, can PM me, or respond in:
Hello (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?592107-Hello-and-Querries)
unless that also dies.