White haired witch reach discussion

[Segev]

This archetype should, of not necessarily be as good as the base witch, at least never make any witch taking it envious of the standard witch who took the Prehensile Hair hex. And, for levels 4-20, it does seem to be at least as good in all aspects as the single hex, at least wet the hair and it’s stats.

But for levels 1-3, while the white haired witch has advantages over the normal witch with he Prehensile Hair hex, there is a significant aspect in which the WHW would wonder why she is inferior: her reach is five feet; the normal witch’s hair has a ten foot reach.

Why do you suppose this was done? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to make the WHW start with 10 foot reach, and gain +5 feet at fifth level and every five thereafter? Like the current progression, this one ends with a reach of 30 feet at level 20, but keeps the WHW equal to or superior to the normal witch’s PH hex at every level.

EDIT: Wait, does the WHW get to use her hair as dexterously as she does her own hands, he way the PH hex allows a normal witch to? Or is she only able to use it as a natural weapon, making the hex superior for utility, as well, and at all 20 levels?

[Psyren]

One big difference is that Prehensile Hair lasts 1 minute per activation (and must be used in 1-minute increments) whereas White Hair is unlimited use. This is particularly relevant at low levels when taking Prehensile Hair as one of your first couple of hexes effectively makes it a 1/day or 2/day ability, and therefore probably less valuable than another hex you could be taking that early on like Evil Eye or Slumber. By the time you get enough uses per day to make them comparably available across multiple fights, the White Hair has caught up to or even exceeded Prehensile Hair in length.

Not saying I disagree with your buff, but there's an argument that the shorter starting length was intended as a tradeoff.

As for the White Hair being usable as an appendage - that's a point of contention. My personal view is yes, because it can do basically everything a tentacle does, and the tentacle alchemist discovery lets it manipulate items.

[Segev]

I suppose, if one really wanted, one could go Shaman 2 for Prehensile Hair and run White Haired With to get the limb-like manipulation. But that seems really silly.

Can you use unarmed strikes with natural weapons? Multiclassinf monk or Deadly Fist Soulknife might be interesting, if so.

[Psyren]

Can you use unarmed strikes with natural weapons? Multiclassinf monk or Deadly Fist Soulknife might be interesting, if so.

Do you mean the unarmed damage? That takes a couple of feats to do - first Feral Combat Training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/) to get unarmed feats on your natural attack, then something like Ascetic Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-strike-combat/) to get monk unarmed damage applied to it.

Personally though I don't think that's worth spending a bunch of feats and losing caster levels for, especially since the white hair gets Int to damage natively anyway. I'd instead do something like Eldritch Knight to boost the WHW combat ability with some BAB.

[Segev]

It just feels like there should be something interesting to do with the extra reach natural weapon, and “be a full caster” - while potent - doesn’t seem like the best use. Like there should be other synergies.

And the idea of doing cool stuff like carrying your stuff and acting at range with your beard just seems like a fun concept. But not one fleshed out by itself, while also not being as well supported by the WHW as it should be.

[Psyren]

Well - even if it can't wield/grasp items, delivering touch spells from long range and grappling people while leaving your hands free is still pretty potent. But as stated, we ruled that it works just like prehensile hair.

In addition, remember abilities like White Hair that "add features" can be superimposed on top of buffs and polymorphs too. This means the WHW can be a capable gish, particularly if they choose a complementary patron like Transformation or Strength.

[Segev]

Well - even if it can't wield/grasp items, delivering touch spells from long range and grappling people while leaving your hands free is still pretty potent. But as stated, we ruled that it works just like prehensile hair.

In addition, remember abilities like White Hair that "add features" can be superimposed on top of buffs and polymorphs too. This means the WHW can be a capable gish, particularly if they choose a complementary patron like Transformation or Strength.

Huh. And since it's Int-based for its "strength" score, the funniest thing you can do is drop down to a tiny critter that still has 5-30 ft. reach and can grapple like a fiend.

Though grappling still would depend on your size, woudn't it. As would base natural weapon damage. So it'd be 1+Int mod for weapon damage as a really tiny thing, and you'd have the penalties to grapple.

Interesting interaction, there.

Also, looking in more detail at PF grappling rules, it seems they've removed the 3.5-era rule about being able to take -20 to your grapple checks to count as not being grappled. That said, the white-haired witch doesn't count as grappled, which has interesting consequences for the ability to move. Normally, you can move only if you expend your successful grapple check on moving both you and your opponent, but that's because the grappled condition makes you unable to move normally. With being ungrappled, the WHW can move freely; I assume the interaction is that this means the continued imposition of the Grappled condition on her target means the target must be moved adjacent to her after the successful reapplication of the grapple effort.

Looks like the way you regain the ability to do things other than spend your action grappling your target is by successfully tying him up. Lets the WHW drop them where she wants, bound in rope she happened to be carrying. Makes me want to find a way to let the WHW spontaneously generate rope from her hair. Maybe just take craft(weaving) or whatever would fit rope-making, and claim she carries a bunch she's made from her own hair in her hair.

The hair is definitely a valid target for Improved Natural Attack, though I'm not sure the extra +1 average damage (going from d4 to d6) is really worth a feat. Can you even us a single natural attack for iteratives, if you're not using a natural attack routine? I don't think you can, but I could be mistaken. Even so, Witches don't get much in the way of iteratives anyway.

Heh, yet another possible use for managing to get the Prehensile Hair hex on a WHW: it gives her a secondary natural attack at 10 feet with her hair, for at least a few minutes a day. Still not likely worth the hoops to jump through, but funny.


Chill touch is a really good spell for the WHW, what with her long reach and its multiple touches. 1d4+1d6+Int hp damage plus 1 Str damage is pretty decent. Even at only 1/round. Add the Grab ability and the fact that you can keep applying this damage while grappling, and they get less and less good at counter-grappling... Well, not if they're dex-based, but still.

[grarrrg]

The Hex and Archetype start in the same place, but wind up acting very differently:

Hair Hex uses INT instead of STR for (presumably) everything
Secondary natural attack, at d3 damage
Can manipulate objects
Always 10ft reach
Duration=minutes

Hair Archetype uses INT for damage, and the on-hit Grapple maneuver check (no mention is made of anything else, so accuracy, all other maneuvers, and anything else default to STR)
Primary Natural attack, at d4 damage
Cannot manipulate objects (only attacking/maneuvers is mentioned)
Reach varies by level
Duration=all the time
Can make extra hair maneuvers w/leveling


The archetype's 'flavor text' does mention Prehensile Hair, so it's possible it's supposed to have the same baseline functionality _and all this other stuff_. But it doesn't actually have it by RAW.
(of course, the flavor also mentions "feats of agility" and "extreme damage", neither of which is remotely present)


.Can you even us a single natural attack for iteratives, if you're not using a natural attack routine?

Short answer: you can always add naturals to a full attack (your actual weapon isn't penalized). Only Weapon attacks use Iteratives, naturals are always just once each.


Long answer info dump on naturals:
Naturals and Manufactured Weapon (hereafter 'weapon') attacks can always be mixed when full attacking, but doing so makes all your naturals function as Secondary natural attacks. Weapon attacks function normally. (a standard attack or AOO is still just one attack, but you have more options)
Primary naturals get full accuracy and damage, secondaries get to-hit -5, and 1/2 stat to damage.
So to use a Primary Natural as a Primary you can ONLY be using Natural attacks that round.
And a secondary is always a secondary (unless it is your ONLY natural, and you aren't using weapons, then it gets bumped to primary).
A limb using a weapon prevents that same limb from using a natural attack > a Claw-hand can either Claw OR use a sword, but not both in the same round.

[Psyren]

(of course, the flavor also mentions "feats of agility" and "extreme damage", neither of which is remotely present)

I would argue that this text is relative - White Hair certainly does extreme damage for hair. And controlling one's hair like it's a tentacle is certainly a feat of agility in my book.



Hair Archetype uses INT for damage, and the on-hit Grapple maneuver check (no mention is made of anything else, so accuracy, all other maneuvers, and anything else default to STR)

Note that this is explicitly intended per the FAQ. But since it's a natural weapon you can also take Weapon Finesse and thus use Dex to attack, making you slightly less MAD.

[Segev]

Note that this is explicitly intended per the FAQ. But since it's a natural weapon you can also take Weapon Finesse and thus use Dex to attack, making you slightly less MAD.

I have to wonder what the thought process at Paizo was. Was it intended that the WHW would be less capable with her hair at anything but combat? Why int-to-damage when str is going to be required anyway for more than half the features added to the class?


Were I re-writing the archetype, I'd explicitly give all the utility functionailty of the Hair hex, do Int-for-Str substitution for anything the Hair is doing, and the buff to range (10 ft. at first level, +5 ft. at every multiple of 5th level). I'm also not entirely sure why rogue talents are what the archetype gets in place of major and grand hexes. Fighter...oh, right, the fighter techniques that are optional replacements for +1 to hit and damage with weapon groups probably came out after the WHW was printed.

Speaking of the rogue talents feature, is it just me, or is the way it's written suggesting that they get ANY rogue talent at 10th level, and are limited to the list for the later levels? I'm pretty sure the limited list was intended for all of them, but as written, it seems only to apply to 12th and later levels.


On the suggestion to run WHW into Eldritch Knight for improved BAB, that wouldn't advance archetype powers, sadly. Though, if you're not into the rogue talents, you could safely PrC out after 8th level. Maybe even 4th; Pull and Strangle are not really game-changers (even if Strangle is good for anti-magery). Wouldn't advance her reach, though, either, which is more of a concern. Still, picking up more BAB is nice; what would be a good class to couple to it for entry? Fighter, Psychic Warrior, and the Augmented Blade Soulknife archetype all seem to grant the requisite martial weapon proficiency, though I don't think the latter two may be all that worth it given the lack of advancement on their own fronts. Augmented Blade probably can't even apply the augmentation to natural weapons.

I was going to comment that the Strength patron gives divine power as a spell, and that could put your BAB equal to your level, but that's one of the spells PF nerfed, and so that's not true, either. Making it a luck bonus also means it doesn't stack with divine favor, which is really kinda sad. Not sure if it adds to CMB and CMD; those use BAB, not "attack bonus" in general, and I'm not sure if they qualify as "strength checks" for purposes of getting divine power's luck bonus.

[grarrrg]

Speaking of the rogue talents feature, is it just me, or is the way it's written suggesting that they get ANY rogue talent at 10th level, and are limited to the list for the later levels? I'm pretty sure the limited list was intended for all of them, but as written, it seems only to apply to 12th and later levels.

Are you looking in book, PDF, the SRD...?
Nethys (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Witch%20White-Haired%20Witch) has it as one solid paragraph, which would apply the limit to the whole ability.

[Segev]

Are you looking in book, PDF, the SRD...?
Nethys (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Witch%20White-Haired%20Witch) has it as one solid paragraph, which would apply the limit to the whole ability.

d20pfsrd.com (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo-witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch) has it thusly:


At 10th level, a white-haired witch learns a rogue talent, using her white-haired witch level in place of her rogue level.

At 12th level and for every two levels thereafter, she gains an additional rogue talent. A white-haired witch cannot select an individual rogue talent more than once, and can select from among the following: assault leader, combat trick, finesse rogue, major magic, minor magic, positioning attack, resiliency, surprise attack, and weapon training.

At 18th level and 20th level, a white-haired witch can choose from among the following advanced rogue talents: another day, defensive roll, improved evasion, opportunist, redirect attack, slippery mind, and thoughtful reexamining.

This ability replaces major hex and grand hex.


I mean, it makes sense that it'd apply to the whole of it. It'd be really weird to have their first instance be "any talent" and the others be restricted.

[Psyren]

Nethys is as of now the official PRD with all errata applied and no third-party; paizo.com/prd even redirects there.

For me the rogue talents are pretty underwhelming; that and the fact that your hair gets all its "special moves" at 8th level gives me even more reason to PrC out for Eldritch Knight. Doing so makes your hair cap out at 20ft. but the BAB boost is quite welcome.

One alternative our group floated was replacing the rogue talents with a different martial class feature, like partial sneak attack, or the Ranger's Natural Combat Style. (Fun fact, Eldritch Claws works with your hair despite the name :smalltongue:)

[Segev]

Nethys is as of now the official PRD with all errata applied and no third-party; paizo.com/prd even redirects there.

For me the rogue talents are pretty underwhelming; that and the fact that your hair gets all its "special moves" at 8th level gives me even more reason to PrC out for Eldritch Knight. Doing so makes your hair cap out at 20ft. but the BAB boost is quite welcome.

One alternative our group floated was replacing the rogue talents with a different martial class feature, like partial sneak attack, or the Ranger's Natural Combat Style. (Fun fact, Eldritch Claws works with your hair despite the name :smalltongue:)

Some of the later-printed Fighter options that are nevertheless (at least on d20pfsrd.com) included as "base" options (not archetypes) look like they could be interesting things to do with the hair. I'm contemplating allowing advanced weapon training tricks in place of rogue talents. With the hair as the "weapon group."


I've been trying to think of a way to play with soul knife on the WHW, because the PF version of it is actually an exciting-looking class, but the fact that hair can't wield weapons combined with multiclassing woes for both WHW and Soulknife means it seems impractical in actual execution.

Fighter does seem the best option to dip to get the prereqs for Eldritch Knight. What're Eldritch Claws? A ranger thing? *goes to look that up*

[Psyren]

Some of the later-printed Fighter options that are nevertheless (at least on d20pfsrd.com) included as "base" options (not archetypes) look like they could be interesting things to do with the hair. I'm contemplating allowing advanced weapon training tricks in place of rogue talents. With the hair as the "weapon group."

You can use the Natural weapon group with the stipulation that all feats chosen must be applied to their hair. This future-proofs the design such that other stuff that interacts with the Natural weapon group can be applied to the hair also.



Fighter does seem the best option to dip to get the prereqs for Eldritch Knight. What're Eldritch Claws? A ranger thing? *goes to look that up*

It's a feat that anyone can take, but Natural Weapon rangers get it for free. It's honestly not great outside of low-magic campaigns though, because a +3 amulet of mighty fists does everything it does, but the rogue talents aren't great either so eh.