3.5/PF Imbue Arrow: Standard or standard?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've been doing some comparisons of the 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm) vs PF (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer/) arcane archer's Imbue Arrow ability, and they have this to say:


Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.


Imbue Arrow (Su): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted.

The only real differences are in the underlined portions. 3.5's is a standard action regardless of the casting time of the original spell, while PF's uses the casting time of the original spell. Missing with the PF arrow means the spell is wasted; 3.5 apparently...doesn't do that?

There are definite benefits and drawbacks to either one. With PF, you can use multiple spells in one round if you have a swift (such as with Quicken) and a standard action spell, but you can't fire spells with longer casting times this way without using their casting times. With 3.5, spells are standard actions regardless, so something like a sorcerer/arcane archer using a Widened antimagic field would still only cast it as a standard. If you could get multiple standard actions (say, if you're gestalted with factotum), you could still fire off multiples in one round.

Plus, 3.5's is a Spell-Like Ability, while PF's is Supernatural. Not sure how that stacks up. Do you provoke AoOs for firing arrows or casting spells if it's part of a (Su) Imbue Arrow?

So, which version is more valuable, in your opinion? In this case, ignore the rest of the arcane archer class for each version, since I'm purely interested in the Imbue Arrow ability.

[Endarire]

I like the (Su) version since it removes the possibilities of AoOs.

Also consider how often you're likely to use spells with especially long cast times. Are you about to Imbue Arrow a genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) spell if that's a legal ability?

Pathfinder's version is more sane overall since it prevents overly long cast time spells from being used and it seems more logical that casting and shooting require the normal amount of time.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I like the (Su) version since it removes the possibilities of AoOs.There is that, yes.


Also consider how often you're likely to use spells with especially long cast times. Are you about to Imbue Arrow a genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) spell if that's a legal ability?I don't think it is, since it doesn't have an Area entry. It does have an area, but not an Area. It's just that the area is folded up into its own alternative space. If that makes sense.


Pathfinder's version is more sane overall since it prevents overly long cast time spells from being used and it seems more logical that casting and shooting require the normal amount of time.I can see that. I'm just wanting everyone's opinion on which is more op-fu worthy, really.

[Psyren]

I can see that. I'm just wanting everyone's opinion on which is more op-fu worthy, really.

Well, obviously the one that potentially lets you cheat long casting times has a higher ceiling. That would be 3.5.

The downside of course is that 3.5 AA also loses a bunch of caster levels, which is lower optimization overall. Not as big a deal if you're only after Imbue Arrow (2 levels in), bigger deal if you're after much else beyond that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are more than two levels? :smallconfused:


Well, obviously the one that potentially lets you cheat long casting times has a higher ceiling. That would be 3.5.Control weather, yay!

[TiaC]

Well, obviously the one that potentially lets you cheat long casting times has a higher ceiling. That would be 3.5.
But the one that lets you make a shot as a swift or an immediate action (although only with Tower of Iron Will) has something to be said for it as well.

[Eldariel]

There are more than two levels? :smallconfused:

Control weather, yay!

Erupt [Serpent Kingdoms] is an Arcane Archer classic, if a bit of a hassle to access being Cleric 9.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's too bad genesis doesn't have an actual Area entry. That would make a fantastic candidate for the 3.5 version.

[Psyren]

But the one that lets you make a shot as a swift or an immediate action (although only with Tower of Iron Will) has something to be said for it as well.

Sure, but my exact words were "higher ceiling"; firing a single arrow as a swift action is nice, but doesn't really compare to the shenanigans the other one can pull off.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

AoOs aside, it doesn't make any difference which version of Imbue Arrow you use it with, but control winds would be a really impressive spell for it. You fire an arrow and whatever you hit suddenly explodes into a tornado!

Muahahahahaha!

I wonder if there's any way to use Imbue Arrow with non-arrows, such as thrown weapons?


Erupt [Serpent Kingdoms] is an Arcane Archer classic, if a bit of a hassle to access being Cleric 9....Huh. Erupt requires a Frot Fort save and doesn't affect objects, yet unattended objects take full damage. 100% of zero damage is...zero damage.

[Anthrowhale]

...Huh. Erupt requires a Frot Fort safe and doesn't affect objects, yet unattended objects take full damage. 100% of zero damage is...zero damage.

Also, it's range:touch with a 100'/level radius. Range constrains area, so ... it only affects what you hit?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also, it's range:touch with a 100'/level radius. Range constrains area, so ... it only affects what you hit?Touch- and Personal-Ranged effects seem to be different, as they don't seem to constrain the Area the same way.

[Anthrowhale]

Touch- and Personal-Ranged effects seem to be different, as they don't seem to constrain the Area the same way.

I don't see anything special in the range rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range)?

If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

However, now I recall that Arcane Archer has this interesting clause:

This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range.
Making it perhaps the only rules-legal way to actually use the full area of Erupt.

[Zaq]

Yeah, the range/area rules are borked. Shockingly few spells are written with apparent awareness of the “any area outside the spell’s range is wasted” clause.

The rule isn’t inherently borked, but it was flagrantly ignored by a large number of folks writing spells, so the results are usually pretty comedic if played by strict RAW.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can anyone think of any really fun abuses of the Range alteration? Because now, the Range is that of your bow's maximum, rather than Personal, Touch, Close, Medium, Long, or whatever else. Would that allow you to Persist any Area spell you wanted? And how would getting infinite Range via Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) work out for this? So long as you have Line of Sight, you can now hit it with a spell. Which would combo well with the clairvoyant sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clairvoyantSense.htm) power (possibly via the third eye: sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) psionic item).

Can anyone think of a way to heavily abuse this vast increase in Range? It'd certainly make using antimagic field a lot easier, for sure.

And what if you have the Exit Wounds special property on your arrow? (CW p134, deals +1d6 dmg, and ranged ammo bursts through foe to attack foes on the other side at a cumulative -4 attack penalty.) Would this be affected by Ocular Spell + Chain Spell at all?


Yeah, the range/area rules are borked. Shockingly few spells are written with apparent awareness of the “any area outside the spell’s range is wasted” clause.

The rule isn’t inherently borked, but it was flagrantly ignored by a large number of folks writing spells, so the results are usually pretty comedic if played by strict RAW.It really screws over users of both Widen Spell and Enlarge Spell, because a lot of spells require you to use both, else using either one is pretty pointless.

[Anthrowhale]

Can anyone think of any really fun abuses of the Range alteration? Because now, the Range is that of your bow's maximum, rather than Personal, Touch, Close, Medium, Long, or whatever else. Would that allow you to Persist any Area spell you wanted? And how would getting infinite Range via Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) work out for this? So long as you have Line of Sight, you can now hit it with a spell. Which would combo well with the clairvoyant sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clairvoyantSense.htm) power (possibly via the third eye: sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) psionic item).

Can anyone think of a way to heavily abuse this vast increase in Range? It'd certainly make using antimagic field a lot easier, for sure.

I think you really want something with a range-limited area to unlock substantially increased power. Erupt, Blinding Glory, Utterdark, and especially Apocalypse from the Sky are the obvious choices.

These are all high level though. At a lower level, maybe Imbue Arrow + Blast of Flame + Explosive Spell? You deliver a cone of 10d6 fire that is <range> long and then inflict absurdly large additional damage to creatures failing their reflex save.

Edit: Ah, Burning Hands has the same property! So Imbue Arrow + Burning Hands + Explosive Spell = absurd damage over an absurd area on a failed reflex save out of a level 3 spell slot.


And what if you have the Exit Wounds special property on your arrow? (CW p134, deals +1d6 dmg, and ranged ammo bursts through foe to attack foes on the other side at a cumulative -4 attack penalty.) Would this be affected by Ocular Spell + Chain Spell at all?

For exit wounds, the spell only goes off "where the arrow lands" which presumably is not in any of the intermediate victims. Ocular spell converts spells into rays, so no longer eligible for Imbue Arrow, which requires an area spell.