Divine soul spells selection

[Yak]

Looking for ideas about spells I should consider for my divine soul.

Iris is a half elf urchin who gained her powers when a group of
Bandits ambushed her and tied her to an ancient standing stone. She tapped in to an ancient power source, which she couldn’t control: the energy flowing through her killed the five bandits. She was shocked an appalled, and now does everything she can to prevent the death of sentient creatures. She prefers non-violent means (so definitely not a blaster sorcerer).

The rest of the party is a Land Druid, Devotion paladin and a rogue (specialisation TBC). We are currently level 2 and my spell load out is:

Cantrips: spare the dying, toll the dead, shocking grasp, minor illusion, [prestidigitation - GM gift]
Lvl 1: Bless (lawful divine soul spell), Sleep, Shield, Sanctuary

Level 3 metamagic is likely to be twin and quicken, though subtle has some appeal.

I have some thoughts already, but keen to hear ideas that fit the character.

[jdolch]

Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians.

Edit: Oh, a Pacifist. Then disregard. What's your role in the Party though? It seems to me that your tree hugging, people friendly spot is already taken by the Druid and Paladin.

[Yak]

The paladin is our tank and melee beater. The rogue is a ranged sharpshooter. The Druid is secondary melee (Shillelagh) and some support (guidance, healing word, faerie fire). I’m support and crowd control currently. I haven’t focussed on healing, as the Druid and paladin both heal a bit, but a splash of healing isn’t a bad idea.

[Lord Vukodlak]

To begin with spiritual weapon(lvl2) is a solid choice, its a bonus action to cast and is free damage, also unless you're getting armor from somewhere else, take mage armor before shield. +3 to ac constantly is better then +5 for a round on the fly.

Quicken isn't that good, you can only cast one spell on your turn unless one of the spells is a cantrip. If you were a Sorceradin.(sorcerer paladin multiclass) it'd be fine, quicken a hold person then full attack. But on a straight sorcerer, I'd skip it.
Heighten Spell can give a single creature disadvantage on the save, suggestion, banishment both can remove a foe from combat making the fight easier. Some would argue it works with spells like hypnotic pattern on all targets, check with your DM if the answer is yes. Get Heighten Spell and Hypnotic Pattern. Even without heighten spell hypnotic pattern is a fairly solid 3rd level spell.

Spells suggestion, hypnotic pattern, haste, eventually greater invisibility and or banishment

[jdolch]

Here are some good ones that don't violate your oath of nonviolence:

Absorb Elements
Blur
Bless
Darkness
Enlarge/Reduce
Mage Armor
Shield
Zone of Truth
Guidance
Divination
Hold Person
Charm Person
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Phantasmal Force
Suggestion
Web(careful)
Fly
Haste(twinned)
Hypnotic Pattern(Careful or Paladin Aura)
Charm Monster
Dimension Door
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph
Hold Monster
Banish

To be honest just look for a sorcerer guide and a cleric guide and go through the recommended spells and sort out the ones that are to violent for you. And then you have a nice list.

I would also argue that Spirit Guardians (from the cleric list) Is both non-violent (since you don't actually attack anyone they just take damage when they try to come near you) and very thematic for your Character. In accordance with the DM you could even flavor it so that that's what protected you from the 5 guys.


To begin with spiritual weapon(lvl2) is a solid choice, its a bonus action to cast and is free damage, also unless you're getting armor from somewhere else, take mage armor before shield. +3 to ac constantly is better then +5 for a round on the fly.

Quicken isn't that good, you can only cast one spell on your turn unless one of the spells is a cantrip. If you were a Sorceradin.(sorcerer paladin multiclass) it'd be fine, quicken a hold person then full attack. But on a straight sorcerer, I'd skip it.
Heighten Spell can give a single creature disadvantage on the save, suggestion, banishment both can remove a foe from combat making the fight easier. Some would argue it works with spells like hypnotic pattern on all targets, check with your DM if the answer is yes. Get Heighten Spell and Hypnotic Pattern. Even without heighten spell hypnotic pattern is a fairly solid 3rd level spell.

Spells suggestion, hypnotic pattern, haste, eventually greater invisibility and or banishment

Spiritual Weapon is out, since it's a deadly weapon.
Mage armor says "base AC becomes 13 + its Dexterity modifier." Where do you get "+3" from that?
I agree that Quicken is only good if he has a spectacular cantrip. And even then The Sorcery Points are probably better spent for Twinning

[Yak]

Totally on board with Spirit guardians. Thanks for the list.

[jdolch]

[edited the list]

[Contrast]

Level 3 metamagic is likely to be twin and quicken, though subtle has some appeal.

If you're planning on being a buffer/debuffer rather than a blaster, what exactly are you taking quicken for?

Careful is insane with Hypnotic Pattern (and better earlier if your DM rules that it works with Web).

Also everyone who can pick up Healing Word probably should, other than that don't go overboard on picking up cleric spells just because you can. Just yoink the best ones.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Here are some good ones that don't violate your oath of nonviolence:
Spiritual Weapon is out, since it's a deadly weapon.
If Spirit Guardians doesn't violate her "preference" she never at any point said oath, just preference. I fail to see how Spiritual Weapon would. It was stated as a preference not an oath. Toll of the Dead deals damage and that's her cantrip



Mage armor says "base AC becomes 13 + its Dexterity modifier." Where do you get "+3" from that?

I was trying to make as a direct comparison as possible. I said "unless you are getting armor from elsewhere" mage armor will give you +3 to AC constantly which is indisputably true. Your AC going from 10+dex to 13+dex is an improvement of +3. So long as you aren't getting armor from elsewhere.

[DrKerosene]

Is there a reason the spell Command hasn’t been mentioned? Flee on someone engaged with the Rogue, or Grovel, should help them and seem non-violent.

A melee weapon attack can be declared to be “non-lethal” after you know you knock-out the target, incase you didn’t know.

Suggestion might be a bit better in general if you don’t want to just upcast Command.

Hold Person can end some encounters too.

Edit: @sophontteks Blade Ward is an option.

[sophontteks]

Spirit guardians is a great cleric spell, but a sorcerer doesn't have the armor or the HP to stand within 15 feet of the enemy like that.

[jdolch]

If Spirit Guardians doesn't violate her "preference" she never at any point said oath, just preference. I fail to see how Spiritual Weapon would. It was stated as a preference not an oath. Toll of the Dead deals damage and that's her cantrip

Not sure why she takes Toll the Dead but the difference between Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon is Intent. Spirit Guardians is a defensive Measure that keeps attackers off of you. (Of course you can use it offensively with the right build) Spiritual Weapon is used offensively with the intend of harming/killing someone.


Spirit guardians is a great cleric spell, but a sorcerer doesn't have the armor or the HP to stand within 15 feet of the enemy like that.

Yes and that would be how for example a Divine Soul Sorcadin would use it offensively, but they can just use it defensively to dissuade Enemies from going into melee range.


I was trying to make as a direct comparison as possible. I said "unless you are getting armor from elsewhere" mage armor will give you +3 to AC constantly which is indisputably true. Your AC going from 10+dex to 13+dex is an improvement of +3. So long as you aren't getting armor from elsewhere.

Ok, that makes sense.

[Corran]

Hypnotic pattern both suits your less violent theme and is a great spell at the same time. The fact that your paladin friend went with oath of devotion means that you could probably pick it without having to invest in the careful metamagic (because the devotion's level 7 aura makes your paladin and nearby allies immune to charm, and hypnotic pattern is essentially a charm spell; combined with the fact that your group is not melee heavy).

Now, if the druid plans on using conjure spells often (which would be a good idea since the party is a bit light in the melee department), I would pick fear and the careful metamagic instead of hypnotic pattern. This is because fear will get a lot of value out of the opportunity attacks, and you would need to cast it carefully to avoid friendly fire on the paladin and the summons. IMO fear can fit well a less violent theme too (''don't waste your lives, flee before it's too late'', or sth like that; a compassionate sincere voice can still inflict fear if it's laying down an ugly truth to the enemies).

Your group would profit from you having ways to deal with more than one enemy at a time, and since damage AoE's are out because of character theme, I would strongly suggest that you pick one of the spells above (hypnotic pattern or careful fear). I'd make my choice based on if the druid plans to use a lot of summons often. If I ended going with fear and careful instead of with hypnotic pattern, I would be tempted to pick (careful) confusion at some point too, so that I can have a backup to fear against enemies that cannot be frightened.

Web is a good spell, and works great if your DM allows it to interact with the careful metamagic (as Contrast already pointed out). Unless your DM does that though, I would leave it to the druid.
Though!!! Being a divine soul means that you can get freedom of movement. In a melee light party (essentially only the paladin is a melee character, everyone else wants to avoid being targeted by attacks), casting freedom of movement on the melee ally (before combat, it has a good duration) can go a long way if you combine it with casting web during combat (because web will give you some very necessary control, that melee light parties need). So consider web and freedom of movement very seriously. You don't have to be the one casting web, you can always leave it to the druid. Essentially, this could be an alternative to spamming conjured animals. Probably less effective on average, but there will be cases where it will work better, so even having it as a back up plan is probably very much worth it (especially if you only have to invest on freedom of movement, which is a good spell anyway).

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Haste and greater invisibility (and polymorph to a lesser extent), work particularly well with twinned (you mentioned taking the twinned metamagic).

Haste will work great on the ranged rogue (if the rogue does the ready action trick; a bit gamey if you ask me) and it will work nice on the paladin too (mainly for the +2 to AC, which will make a difference if the paladin is on the other end of most attacks). The downside here, is that if you pick haste and especially if you plan on twinning it, you need to invest in ways that will protect you from losing concentration. I'd definitely pick mirror image (and I would use it on the round after I twin haste), and I would consider seriously all of mage armor, shield and the lucky feat as well. I would also save using the 'favored of the gods' feature for concentration checks on haste. Haste will work well for your group, but it requires investment that does not come cheap (particularly in the spell department, since you don't get too many known spells).

Greater invisibility on the other hand requires less investment in spells (and feats) to make using it safe and appealing. Theoritically it wont work as well as haste (that is if your rogue friend does the ready action trick), but depending on how the DM does battle, it might actually be a better spell than haste. There are many ways to look at this, and it all depends on the DM.
a) For example, if the DM is not having monsters attack you and the druid often, you put greater invisibility on the rogue and on the paladin. The rogue can certainly profit from the advantage, both because of the increased hit chance but also because the advantage will allow them to apply sneak attack on whichever enemy they want, even if there is no pc adjacent to that enemy (it's very important for the dpr to be able to focus fire on the higher priority enemies, and if these enemies does not have a pc other than the rogue next to them, the rogue will have a hard time killing them without sneak attack). Greater invisibility on the paladin means both increased offense and defense for them, and if the enemies are focusing the paladin much, that increased defense can go a long way.
b) If the DM on the other hand has the enemies focus on the druid much, and the druid is concentrating on sth important like conjure animals, it will be important if you can make them invisible and protect their concentration this way. Same goes for you. So you could for example twin gr invisibility on you and on the druid.

In truth, any combination regarding on which two pc's you would make invisible works, if we make the relevant assumption about how battles tend to be played out (tactically, mostly from the DM's perspective) at your table.

Bottom line, you can get good value out of the twinned metamagic, so it's definitely not a bad decision taking it. If you end up taking the twinned metamagic, then I would pick one of haste or greater invisibility. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, which I tried to describe, at least in the way I see them.

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I'd definitely pick counterspell (extra points if you also happen to have greater invisibility, as it allows you more movement freedom, thus more chance to be within 60' of the enemy caster, and it also helps with no being counterpelled yourself; so people who can't see you cannot counter your counterspell for starters). It matches your theme, it is a good spell, and it is a great spell to pick when nobody else can get it.

Hold person (monster) synergizes really well with your rogue and your paladin (cause they can crit for lots of damage; assuming that the rogue can rush next to the held targets). And with summons too (if the druid uses any). Now, this is a druid spell too (meaning hold person, not hold monster), so I would probably leave it to the druid, unless the druid plans to summon things, in which case I would probably want to grab it. Technically it's a spell that works well with your theme, as you are not doing any killing yourself. But it's a bit iffy when I think about it. Unless your character considers a quick death to be mercy or sth. I dunno, up to you when it comes to theme, since after all it's your character.

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Subtle works nicely out of combat, with spells like suggestion, charm person, detect thoughts, etc. You know better than me how much you want sth like that for your character, so I don't have much to say about it. Just be careful of how this will limit your character's abilities combat-wise.

[Fryy]

Spare the Dying is a waste of a cantrip. I recommend you replace it with Guidance.

Subtle also pairs well with Counterspell and is a low point cost metamagic.

[sophontteks]

Subtle also makes your spells immune to counterspell. It's just plain good.

[Corran]

Subtle also pairs well with Counterspell and is a low point cost metamagic.

Subtle also makes your spells immune to counterspell. It's just plain good.
That's true, but unless you are fighting spellcasters who also happen to have counterspell very often (which is usually not that common, at least in my experience) it's not that essential, but more like a collateral benefit (while the actual benefit is the out of combat stuff). If you are fighting spellcasters with counterspell often, then sure, subtle greater invisibility will be of great value (so will counterspell, dispel magic and perhaps a couple more spells). Well, at least in my opinion.

And there is something else. With the exception of empowered spell, metamagic options don't stack for a single casting. So for example, maybe subtle haste will be better than twinned haste (while betting on your own counterspell to counter an enemy's counterspell) for 1 in 20 encounters, but twinned haste will be the better option for the remaining 19 encounters. Same goes for careful hypnotic pattern compared to subtle hypnotic pattern, etc. That's because situational benefits hardly compare to generally increasing your efficiency and/or (practically) expanding your tactical options.

My point is, that if I want subtle for out of combat stuff, then I take it in a heartbit, because there is simply no substitute for it. But its combat value is too situational, as opposed to the combat value of metamagic options like twinned or careful, which is not situational but instead will be either good or bad depending on the party (though once you know the party, it's fixed).

[sophontteks]

That's true, but unless you are fighting spellcasters who also happen to have counterspell very often (which is usually not that common, at least in my experience) it's not that essential, but more like a collateral benefit (while the actual benefit is the out of combat stuff). If you are fighting spellcasters with counterspell often, then sure, subtle greater invisibility will be of great value (so will counterspell, dispel magic and perhaps a couple more spells). Well, at least in my opinion.

And there is something else. With the exception of empowered spell, metamagic options don't stack for a single casting. So for example, maybe subtle haste will be better than twinned haste (while betting on your own counterspell to counter an enemy's counterspell) for 1 in 20 encounters, but twinned haste will be the better option for the remaining 19 encounters. Same goes for careful hypnotic pattern compared to subtle hypnotic pattern, etc. That's because situational benefits hardly compare to generally increasing your efficiency and/or (practically) expanding your tactical options.

My point is, that if I want subtle for out of combat stuff, then I take it in a heartbit, because there is simply no substitute for it. But its combat value is too situational, as opposed to the combat value of metamagic options like twinned or careful, which is not situational but instead will be either good or bad depending on the party (though once you know the party, it's fixed).
Twinned and subtle compliment each other. It's practically mandatory to have a cheap option picked alongside twinned. Sorcerers will need most their sorcery points just to use twinned at all. Empowered is a great option for similiar reasons. These are the most bang for your buck.

[No brains]

If you are looking to prevent the death, but not entirely the harm of living creatures, Spiritual Weapon is still a decent choice. Despite having a long potential range, it is still a Melee spell attack, which means you may choose to knock out a creature with your Spiritual Weapon. It can be a technical pacifist spell when used intelligently.*

Also if you like buffing and support spells, consider Sanctuary. If you or a target you are trying to protect are not going to attack, it's basically disadvantage on incoming attacks, with your spell DC as a new AC. It also stacks with disadvantage. Mirror Image, Sanctuary, and real disadvantage diverts full power to the shields! Also remember that you can still use the Help action against enemies while Sanctuary is up; sometimes making your allies attack better is more important than you attacking.

*When used intelligently, Spiritual Weapon also interacts weirdly with stealth. You don't need to see a creature to attempt an attack on it, nor do you need to make any calls or movement. Yet by RAW, attacking with Spiritual Weapon reveals you from hiding just as any other attack. Talk to your DM to clear up how this will work in your game.

[Fryy]

I haven’t focussed on healing, as the Druid and paladin both heal a bit, but a splash of healing isn’t a bad idea.

Having multiple people with Healing Word is always good. It's a ranged heal so you can better stay out of harm's way than a cure wounds.

Aid is a good 'preemptive' healing spell.

If you really want some decent healing, a 1 level dip in Life Cleric is a good option. It also can help your AC (skipping Mage Armor) while providing extra flexibility with 1st level Cleric spells.

[Shuruke]

Looking for ideas about spells I should consider for my divine soul.

Iris is a half elf urchin who gained her powers when a group of
Bandits ambushed her and tied her to an ancient standing stone. She tapped in to an ancient power source, which she couldn’t control: the energy flowing through her killed the five bandits. She was shocked an appalled, and now does everything she can to prevent the death of sentient creatures. She prefers non-violent means (so definitely not a blaster sorcerer).

The rest of the party is a Land Druid, Devotion paladin and a rogue (specialisation TBC). We are currently level 2 and my spell load out is:

Cantrips: spare the dying, toll the dead, shocking grasp, minor illusion, [prestidigitation - GM gift]
Lvl 1: Bless (lawful divine soul spell), Sleep, Shield, Sanctuary

Level 3 metamagic is likely to be twin and quicken, though subtle has some appeal.

I have some thoughts already, but keen to hear ideas that fit the character.

I recemend if pacifist going for things that fit

Sanctuary on self while dropping healing

Heightened suggestion, charm person, calm emotions, command (Chill XD)

I would recemend

Heightened
Twinned

Twinned for healing like healing word
Heightened for the pacifism feeling spells


For role I recemend being the
I try to resolve without fighting and none of my spells harm

If u can't resolve through charms etc

Than you heal when needed during combat while using your action to use misc cantrips
(Could be fun to instead of damage cantrips talking enemies down with friend cantrip. The when it Wears off explain how u did it for their own good and you see light in them that deserves to be kindled.) Alternatively melee attacks that bring an enemy to 0 can be made non lethal

Inflict wounds is just u destroying the fighting spirit for a short period etc

I recemend asking DM if u can steal redemption pally u.a thing for reducing someone to 0 instead putting them prone and charmed , I think also something else
While they look at u with awe

Level 4 I recemend healer feat or inspiring leader

I would also recemend things like hypnotic pattern at 5th level

[Ventruenox]

Even though it is typically sacrilege to suggest this amongst the power-optimizers on these forums, for a Divine Soul, Extended Metamagic can have a viable use. Think about spells like Guardian of Faith, Death Ward, Aid, Mage Armor, etc. You can cast them before a long rest and they will still be active the next day. With the cheap 1 SP cost, it isn't often that you find a resource efficient Sorcerer.

[Shuruke]

Even though it is typically sacrilege to suggest this amongst the power-optimizers on these forums, for a Divine Soul, Extended Metamagic can have a viable use. Think about spells like Guardian of Faith, Death Ward, Aid, Mage Armor, etc. You can cast them before a long rest and they will still be active the next day. With the cheap 1 SP cost, it isn't often that you find a resource efficient Sorcerer.

This +1

Also
If o.c isn't interested in healing u could grab beacon of hope and be loved for
Maximising other peoples healing rather than u healing

[Corran]

Twinned and subtle compliment each other. It's practically mandatory to have a cheap option picked alongside twinned. Sorcerers will need most their sorcery points just to use twinned at all. Empowered is a great option for similiar reasons. These are the most bang for your buck.
We are jumping into a new discussion here.

Yes, I agree that if you pick twinned then your second metamagic had better be a cheap one. There are 3 such options. Subtle, empowered and careful. Subtle cannot exactly compare to the other two metamagic options. That's because most of its value comes from out of combat applications, while the opposite is the case for careful and empowered spell. I don't mean to say that subtle is worse, only that it's different. Because of that, it's almost impossible to make an objective comparison. Essentially, it's a decision of how much I want out of combat stuff at the expense of in combat stuff and vice versa. And one cannot make that decision objectively, because it's apple and oranges.

Between empowered and careful, it's relatively a lot easier to make a comparison. In a void, I'd say careful all the way. That's because careful spell expands your tactical options, while empowered spell does not. If allies and enemies are clustered up, careful spell allows you to have a great impact at this combat while without it you would have to rely on cantrips and single target spells. And excluding edge cases where one single target spell might target a specific enemy's weakness, relying on cantrips and single target spells does not make for a good impact at combat. Empowered on the other hand allows you to deal more damage with AoE spells, while doing nothing to make casting AoE spells more appealing. Meaning, it just gives you a little extra something when you already have a good tactical option at your disposal, but does nothing when you are out of options.

Now, the above comparison between careful and empowered can be affected by certain parameters in favor of empowered. Maybe you took 2 levels in evoker wizard, so you can cast AoE's pretty much always, in which case I'd say that empowered spell is a great metamagic pick, since now you can rely on damage AoE's whenever you want to deal with more than one enemy at a time. Maybe you play in a stealthy group, so surprising enemies is just a typical thing, which would make casting a damage AoE at the first round of combat routine. So once again, just because you would be relying on damage AoE's a lot more often than a typical sorcerer, empowered spell would gain some points. Or maybe your group has great ways to mitigate friendly fire (I dunno, just one melee character who happens to have evasion?), so once again you would be able to rely on damage AoE's to answer a ''targeting the masses'' demand.

The common ground between the above examples, is that in all cases there were circumstances that would allow the sorcerer to be able to depend on damage instead of non-damage AoE options for when said sorcerer wants to target more than one enemies, when the enemies and the sorcerer's allies are in melee combat. These are the circumstances that make empowered spell a good 2nd option. But these circumstances don't occur all that often in a party. Take for example the op's party and think how a party friendly hypnotic pattern or fear compares to an empowered fireball.

[DrKerosene]

Even though it is typically sacrilege to suggest this amongst the power-optimizers on these forums, for a Divine Soul, Extended Metamagic can have a viable use.

How about an Extended Catnap? Double how long your team is unconscious, same benefit though.

Only not entirely stupid if you can get a few willing enemies (so they probably already failed a save against another spell), it’s like a Sleep spell without a HP cap.

[DarkKnightJin]

Slightly anecdotal here, but I'm playing a Divine Soul Sorcerer in an Evil campaign based on the 'Strongholds & Followers' thing by Colville. Seeing as it's ostensibly going to be a less combat-focused campaign, I picked up Subtle and Empowered as low-cost Metamagics that have a decently wide use in their niche.
I'm also picking up Suggestion, because it's pretty useful, I think. Especially if you can Subtle it and simply *suggest* someone stops being difficult and gives you/your party what you need. At a fair deal, of course. The Suggestion still needs to be phrased as if it would be a reasonable thing for them to do.

Beyond that, Bless is always a good spell, especially at low levels. Spiritual Weapon could work, but that might not be something your particular Sorcerer wants access to.

I suggest that you pick Subtle and Twinned at 3rd level, and mood the spell picks around that a bit.
Not every spell will work with either Metamagic, but that's okay.