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Quietus
2007-10-02, 09:34 PM
Hey guys, I've been toying with the idea of creating a shadowdancer character for mucking around on my PbP forum, and it occurred to me that Shadowdancers have precious little in the way of offense, outside of having their shadows strength-drain a target to doom. Now, I could live with her not having a lot of offense, but I want her to be capable of doing more than just being a flanking-buddy with some shadow pals when the bad guys show up.

What I have in mind for her is running along the "quiet, mysterious girl" archetype; I intend to have her wear a porcelain mask at all times, along with flowing white robes, both so she stands out as a PC and because I like the vast difference from the normal "I'm a shadowdancer, I wear all black" stereotype. I intend for her to rarely speak, but I'm flirting with the idea of giving her a high charisma and buffing some social skills; I know I want her to have above-average charisma, even if it's only a 12, but I may choose to go higher than that. Her dancing style, as I picture it in my head, would be best described as ephemeral; Slow and enchanting, using the benefits granted by her long, flowing clothing to enhance the effects as much as possible.

I'll create a backstory once I have an idea of what direction I want to take her to enter the class, so that I can tie in the features/training she would have picked up along the way.

Now, I'm trying to decide what sorts of abilities I want her to pick up on her way to being a Shadowdancer... the three classes that have come to mind have been Rogue, Bard, and Monk. Rogue is the classic entry to the Shadowdancer class, and would make her a scout/performer of sorts. Likely be looking at entering Shadowdancer immediately at Rog7, as soon as I qualify. That'll give me nice reflex saves, a decent 4d6 sneak attack, and probably lead me in the direction of using the "dancer" persona as cover for a lock-picking thief.

Bard would make an interesting entry, and would follow the performance route. Here I'd look at taking Bard up to 8th for +2 on my Inspire Courage, or possibly pop as high as 9th for Inspire Greatness or 10th for a single 4th level spell per day. This has the nice advantage of letting my Fascinate scale (3 fascinated at level 7, or 4 if I go to 10), along with the DC on my suggestion and countersong abilities, as long as I continue to raise my Perform abilities. Here I'd probably spend a second pile of skill points on raising a secondary performance type, and sing along with dancing.

Finally, we have monk : Amusingly, a Monk might provide me the greatest freedom of the lot. I can use some of the variants on the SRD, which means if I use the Cobra Strike variant, I pick up Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack as my monk bonus feats, along with a +2 bonus on Escape Artist checks and, come 6th, my Dodge feat gives a +2 to AC instead of +1. Alternatively, there's Sleeping Tiger, which I'm fond of; Gives me Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, and Improved Sunder as bonus feats, as well as a +2 bonus on Hide, and come level 6, give me basically +1d6 sneak attack with any light weapon. This I would try and get up to level 9, to eliminate the Flurry of Blows penalty to attacks, an extra +10 feet base speed, and Improved Evasion much earlier. This would add a "pole" (Quarterstaff, eventually with adamantine ends to take advantage of her Improved Sunder bonus feat) to her dancing style, make her outfit more revealing, and her dancing would still be slow and enchanting, but more risque.



What I have to work with, mechanically : Any base class or race in the PHB, and I can use alternative class features from the SRD. I want to enter Shadowdancer, not too worried about when, but I want it to happen *eventually*, and I do want the full advancement out of it. I can use any feat or PrC in the DMG, Complete Scoundrel, PHB2 (Possibly including variants there, that depends on what my co-DM and I think of the variant in question), and Draconomicon. Stuff from other books is open to suggestions, but I can't use non-core base classes, and I'll have to "sell" the idea to my co-DM. Ultimately, that shouldn't be too tough, since Vethedar is *my* baby, so if you can think of something that'd really add to this, I'd love to hear about it.

Oh- Almost any 3.0 supplement can be worked with, but Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, anything Psionic, and all setting books are banned.

Please, oh gurus of D&D, give me what advice you can to help me make an effective shadowdancer!

slexlollar89
2007-10-02, 09:40 PM
maybe scout/rogue? the skirmish and the dance?

Having said that I like it... a lot.

If nothing else, I would go with monk and/or bard, just because I like them better and the classes are both movement based as opposed to sneaky sneaky... but bard sounds like the coolest idea to me.

good luck with ths character, she sounds cool.

cupkeyk
2007-10-02, 09:41 PM
Cobra Strike Fighting Style Monk from UA frees up your feat choices to net you more offense.

The_Snark
2007-10-02, 09:47 PM
It doesn't help the shadowdancer idea any, but have you perhaps considered giving her levels of cloaked dancer (Complete Scoundrel)? It sounds like it fits the character well. Unfortunately, it's available at the same level as shadowdancer.

As you say, Shadowdancer doesn't work too well for offensive purposes; it's possible that you could take a few levels of shadowdancer, then go into cloaked dancer (which provides the interesting ability to attack while enthralling opponents).

I take it the character is a party member? Spring Attack can be a good tactic when you're a solo character, but whittling your enemies down while staying out of reach doesn't help very much when your friends remain well within reach.

Quietus
2007-10-02, 09:47 PM
maybe scout/rogue? the skirmish and the dance?

Having said that I like it... a lot.

If nothing else, I would go with monk and/or bard, just because I like them better and the classes are both movement based as opposed to sneaky sneaky... but bard sounds like the coolest idea to me.

good luck with ths character, she sounds cool.

I would've loved to have done this, perhaps with a Dervish Dip, but unfortunately, Scout is a base class from another book, and to keep things sane (since my co-DM and I would rather save splatbook classes for people who aren't going to force us to break out 100 books just to accept a character) we don't allow splatbook base classes. Otherwise, I would've been all over it like green on grass, so to speak.


Cobra Strike Fighting Style Monk from UA frees up your feat choices to net you more offense.

Aye, I considered that. With that, I'd be free to pick up some other neat feats, I'd only have to grab Combat Reflexes with to qualify for Shadowdancer. That'd leave me 3-4 feats depending on race (Probably human, I love my skills and feats a bit too much) to work with, and I wouldn't have to feel bad about any of them.



It doesn't help the shadowdancer idea any, but have you perhaps considered giving her levels of cloaked dancer (Complete Scoundrel)? It sounds like it fits the character well. Unfortunately, it's available at the same level as shadowdancer.

As you say, Shadowdancer doesn't work too well for offensive purposes; it's possible that you could take a few levels of shadowdancer, then go into cloaked dancer (which provides the interesting ability to attack while enthralling opponents).

I take it the character is a party member? Spring Attack can be a good tactic when you're a solo character, but whittling your enemies down while staying out of reach doesn't help very much when your friends remain well within reach.

I did look at it, but the image of a white-robed woman stepping from a well-lit area and into the shadows, with whichever portion of her is currently within those shadows disappearing... is a very attractive image in my mind. Not to say I won't use it, but I would prefer to roll with the Shadowdancer, for the Hide in Plain Sight and Shadow Jump abilities. The Cloaked Dancer is very tempting, though.

As far as Spring Attack goes, that's more a result of having Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites for Shadowdancer. I figure, if I'm going to blow feats on those, I may as well get the third, as well - it won't be SUPER helpful in most fights, but she'll be toast if she stays in melee anyway, and any round the cleric is healing me is a round the cleric isn't dealing with other problems.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-02, 11:59 PM
I like the theme of a Sword Sage with Setting Sun and Shadow Hand disciplines but missed that was banned. Would the Psychic Rogue and Psychic Assassin variants be allowed?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d

The +1 LA FRCS Shadow Walker Template from Unapproachable East could be nice with LA buydown. In FRCS it is called the Ritual of Shadow Walking normally performed by the clergy of Mask.

Mixing up a few levels with Rogue, Ninja, Monk, Bard and Sword Sage could work.

Dr. Weasel
2007-10-03, 12:06 AM
ToB is one of the No-ed books.

Anyway, Monk is probably your best bet, followed by feat Rogue for all-around utility.

Quietus
2007-10-03, 07:56 AM
ToB is one of the No-ed books.

Anyway, Monk is probably your best bet, followed by feat Rogue for all-around utility.

I'm currently at work (No access to the SRD), and I don't know exactly what a feat rogue is... I'm guessing it's kind of the opposite of the sneak attack fighter? If so, do they select from the Fighter feat list, or do they have a separate, more skill-monkey style of feat options?

My concern here isn't to do with skillmonkeyness, all I have in terms of mechanics is :

Sneaky
High ranks in Perform
Some possible focus on mobility

I've been thinking that if I go Monk, I might go straight 14's in all stats, with a single 16 in Dex (We use 40 point buy). That'll give me a decent base in everything, and as a Human, I'll have 7 skill points. That'll give me Spot/Listen/Hide/Move Silently/Tumble/Balance/Perform, and I might consider picking up Nymph's Kiss (I know that I have no problems with the feat, and neither will my co-DM) to nab max ranks in Diplomacy, along with some fey ties (Which I'd tie into the reasoning behind the porcelain mask), and a +2 bonus to all charisma checks. Only problem with that is I think it's pushing the character to take her Exalted, so I'll have to heavily consider that.

It'd be tempting, actually, to use that same Nymph's Kiss route if I run a Bard-focussed dancer... and I'd feel less like I were stretching the character this way. I'm thinking if I enter via Bard, I'll drop the "Fade into shadows/Shadowdancer" angle and use Cloaked Dancer, the only problem with that class is the low DCs (max of 15+cha).

Person_Man
2007-10-03, 08:26 AM
Instead of Shadowdancer, consider 1 level of Warlock or Dragonfire Adept. Use the Adept of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) trick. You now have Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action every round. It also synergizes perfectly with your desire to have high Cha.

Quietus
2007-10-03, 08:35 AM
Instead of Shadowdancer, consider 1 level of Warlock or Dragonfire Adept. Use the Adept of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) trick. You now have Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action every round. It also synergizes perfectly with your desire to have high Cha.

Unfortunately, as I've mentioned, we've denied base classes outside of the PHB ones, which (unless I'm mistaken about the Adept) leaves both of those invocation-using classes out of the list of options. Besides, what good is being a beautiful dancer if you're surrounded in Darkness and no one can see you?

JackMage666
2007-10-03, 08:56 AM
I don't like the whole white robes and mask things, but that's because I'm a theatre technician and know you never wear white if you're trying to blend into darkness. But, D&D is fiction, after all, and we've proved it doesn't follow real world physics, so go for it.

Rogue is probably your best bet Combat-wise, so you can dish out some sneak attack damage. If possible, I'd pick up a single level of Assassin for Death Attack, but you many not want to due to the current alignment restriction (I'm sure you could get this removed if you spoke with your co-DM.)

Another interesting choice might be a Beguiler, though it doesn't have Perform as a class skill. You'd have to go cross-class on Perform (dance), but it's still enterable by 8th level. You'd get a good number of skill points and some low-level enchantment spells 3rd level if you enter after Beguiler 7, 4th if you wait til Beguiler 8.

Shisumo
2007-10-03, 09:05 AM
I'm currently at work (No access to the SRD), and I don't know exactly what a feat rogue is... I'm guessing it's kind of the opposite of the sneak attack fighter? If so, do they select from the Fighter feat list, or do they have a separate, more skill-monkey style of feat options?

They actually aren't at d20srd.org, for whatever reason, but yes, they get fighter feats in lieu of sneak attack dice. And they are fighter feats, not rogue-type feats.

Quietus
2007-10-03, 09:24 AM
I don't like the whole white robes and mask things, but that's because I'm a theatre technician and know you never wear white if you're trying to blend into darkness. But, D&D is fiction, after all, and we've proved it doesn't follow real world physics, so go for it.

I'm well aware that white doesn't blend into darkness. That's why I'm using a minor reflavoring; Rather than being INVISIBLE in darkness, I'm going with the opposite - only being VISIBLE in light. As the white clothing/mask leaves the light, it disappears, via the HIPS and shadow jump abilities.


Another interesting choice might be a Beguiler, though it doesn't have Perform as a class skill. You'd have to go cross-class on Perform (dance), but it's still enterable by 8th level. You'd get a good number of skill points and some low-level enchantment spells 3rd level if you enter after Beguiler 7, 4th if you wait til Beguiler 8.

Guys, I really appreciate all of this advice, but the following classes are NOT available :

Warlock
Beguiler
Swordsage
Scout
Or anything ELSE that falls under the "No non-PHB base classes" clause.

What I AM looking for is suggestions for PrC's that might give a similar feel, or can enhance the abilities I'd gain from Shadowdancer. Feat options, possible equipment worth looking into, skill suggestions, and templates I might be able to earn through IC actions are all things I'm interested in listening to. But I CANNOT use base classes from outside the PHB due to the limitations of my world.

GeneralTacticus
2007-10-03, 09:27 AM
Re: Feats - if you go with the Bard route, you might want to look at the Versatile Performer feat (Complete Adventurer, pg. 112). IT allows you to max several Perform skills while only having ranks in one. Also gives you a +2 bonus to your Perform check if you combine two skills in one performance, but I don't know if that's useful for anything more than making a bit more money on the side.

Quietus
2007-10-03, 09:43 AM
Re: Feats - if you go with the Bard route, you might want to look at the Versatile Performer feat (Complete Adventurer, pg. 112). IT allows you to max several Perform skills while only having ranks in one. Also gives you a +2 bonus to your Perform check if you combine two skills in one performance, but I don't know if that's useful for anything more than making a bit more money on the side.

Actually, I hadn't even thought about that : that'd work really nicely, actually, since instead of sinking X number of extra skills into things, I could spend one feat - and since if I go Bard I'll be looking more at Cloaked Dancer than Shadowdancer, I'll free up quite a few feats that way.

As for what the +2 to Perform checks would be good for... things like the Bard's Fascinate/Suggestion and Countersong are based off of the bard's Perform check.

The_Snark
2007-10-03, 12:20 PM
I did look at it, but the image of a white-robed woman stepping from a well-lit area and into the shadows, with whichever portion of her is currently within those shadows disappearing... is a very attractive image in my mind. Not to say I won't use it, but I would prefer to roll with the Shadowdancer, for the Hide in Plain Sight and Shadow Jump abilities. The Cloaked Dancer is very tempting, though.

As far as Spring Attack goes, that's more a result of having Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites for Shadowdancer. I figure, if I'm going to blow feats on those, I may as well get the third, as well - it won't be SUPER helpful in most fights, but she'll be toast if she stays in melee anyway, and any round the cleric is healing me is a round the cleric isn't dealing with other problems.

Yeah, the Shadow Jump ability is neat...

Hmmm, I'd forgotten those prerequisites. If you have both of those, I'd go for Elusive Target (Complete Warrior), which requires the same feats. It'll help you out with staying in melee some, if your AC/HP isn't already too low to manage melee. You could always get both if you have the feats, I guess.

Draz74
2007-10-03, 12:33 PM
Looking at PrCs from the Shadow Magic section of the Tome of Magic ...

Child of Night kind of turns you into a shadow-like being as you go through it, and it also gives 9/10 spellcasting progression. So you could get into it through Bard 5 (the prerequisites are easy). The only problem is, it gets 2+Int skill points per level and Perform is not a class skill. (Able Learner feat?) Since this will be a dedicated spellcasting bard with unimpressive BAB/HP, a dip in Sublime Chord when possible might be a good idea. (Then Child of Night can progress the Sublime Chord casting abilities after the dip.)

Shadowblade is kind of the non-casting equivalent option. It's a semi-warrior class (medium BAB) that gets offensive shadow-themed abilities (e.g. Sudden Strike progression, making your attacks touch attacks for a few times/day, stuff like that). It's not uber-strong and it still gets 2+Int skill points and no Perform. But the good news is, if you go Cobra Strike Monk / Shadowdancer, it will be easy after a couple Shadowdancer levels to qualify for Shadowblade too. You'll just need 5 ranks of Bluff, the Blind-Fight feat, and +5 BAB.

Shadowsmith is an interesting jack-of-all-trades option. It has full BAB, 6+Int skill points (still no Perform as a class skill), and gets a strange set of abilities to make items for itself out of shadow (including magic armor and weapons). Probably not what you want. I guess Bard would again be the best way to get into it.

Stepping away from Tome of Magic, the Bladesinger is a PrC that supposedly casts spells by weaving their components into its singing and dancing. It gets to cast quickened spells without actually Quickening them whenever it makes a full attack. (The only way, mechanically, that this actually involves singing and dancing is that you need ranks in Perform to qualify for the class.) However, it might not be what you want because it has a lot of other very specific abilities and requirements too (for example, it has to be an elf). Still, I could see this work ... an elven Fighter/Bard who uses her Bard levels to get Hide/Move Silently and shadow-themed spells.

Finally, the easy Core-Only answer for "how can I make a Shadowdancer have some offensive power?" is "don't take many levels."
- Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 1/Rogue 12.
- Rogue 5/Assassin 2/Shadowdancer 1/Assassin 8/Rogue 4.
- Rogue 5/Assassin 10/Shadowdancer 5.
- Monk 5/Assassin 2/Shadowdancer 5/Assassin 8.
- Ranger 7/Shadowdancer 2/something else 11 ...
None of these are amazing builds, but they could work.

Dr. Weasel
2007-10-03, 12:51 PM
The problem with Shadowdancer is you don't get any ablities to help keep your party alive. It's really an NPC class (it makes nifty bad guys) based on self-preservation.

So what you're probably going to end up doing is acting as the scout for your party, which means you need at least one level of Rogue.

Rogue 1/Cobra Strike Monk 6, focusing yourself as a sneak/trapfinder out of combat and probably as a wizard-killer in combat (Ascetic Stalker, Ability Focus-Stunning Fist, and the Mage Slayer feat line perhaps?). This might mean you have an overspecialized role, but at least you'll have a niche.




They actually aren't at d20srd.org, for whatever reason, but yes, they get fighter feats in lieu of sneak attack dice. And they are fighter feats, not rogue-type feats

Um.. Yes they are.


Rogue
The rogue who favors martial training over stealth and cunning can profit if she chooses her fights carefully.

Gain
Bonus feats (as fighter).

Lose
Sneak attack.

Shisumo
2007-10-03, 01:57 PM
Um.. Yes they are.

Ah. This would be me not scrolling down far enough.

Curmudgeon
2007-10-03, 04:25 PM
Your best offensive option is to take as many Rogue levels as you can for sneak attack damage, and max out your Hide skill. Hide in Plain Sight will let you make full attacks, hiding with each swing (at a -20 penalty), and add sneak attack damage on each. The Penetrating Strike variant (Dungeonscape) will let your Rogue swap trap sense at level 3 for the ability to deal half sneak attack damage to every creature normally immune. You can also add a Greater Truedeath or Greater Demolition crystal (Magic Item Compendium) to your magical kukri to deal full (not half) sneak attack damage against undead and constructs.

Get Bracers of Armor and add the Greater Shadow armor property to them for a +15 competence bonus to your Hide checks. You can also get a masterwork tool that will add a +2 circumstance bonus to Hide. This (15 + 2) cancels most of the -20 penalty to use Hide in combat. If you get your Use Magic Device skill up, you can also use a wand of Greater Invisibility so you'll succeed at sneak attack without having to make your Hide check.

The Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) will add +1 damage per class level to all your sneak attacks.

Quietus
2007-10-03, 06:54 PM
Your best offensive option is to take as many Rogue levels as you can for sneak attack damage, and max out your Hide skill. Hide in Plain Sight will let you make full attacks, hiding with each swing (at a -20 penalty), and add sneak attack damage on each. The Penetrating Strike variant (Dungeonscape) will let your Rogue swap trap sense at level 3 for the ability to deal half sneak attack damage to every creature normally immune. You can also add a Greater Truedeath or Greater Demolition crystal (Magic Item Compendium) to your magical kukri to deal full (not half) sneak attack damage against undead and constructs.

Get Bracers of Armor and add the Greater Shadow armor property to them for a +15 competence bonus to your Hide checks. You can also get a masterwork tool that will add a +2 circumstance bonus to Hide. This (15 + 2) cancels most of the -20 penalty to use Hide in combat. If you get your Use Magic Device skill up, you can also use a wand of Greater Invisibility so you'll succeed at sneak attack without having to make your Hide check.

The Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) will add +1 damage per class level to all your sneak attacks.

Hmmm... don't think either of us DM's have access to the MIC. Might be worth looking into, though. As for Greater Shadow, I wasn't aware that you could add that onto Bracers of Armor...

So far as the "sniping" bit goes, though, I don't know if it's RAW that you can hide in the split-second between attacks, even with HiPS. I know that neither I nor my co-DM would allow it, however... but that doesn't stop me from spring attacking back into hiding.

cupkeyk
2007-10-03, 07:04 PM
I made a rog10/shadowdancer10 with twf and crippling strike. Your shadow and yourself deal strength damage to your opponents.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-04, 01:50 AM
I made a rog10/shadowdancer10 with twf and crippling strike. Your shadow and yourself deal strength damage to your opponents.

That was going to be my suggestion. :smalltongue: That gives you synergy with your pet and mitigates the impact of losing a continued sneak attack progression (now you're more worried about ability-damaging your opponents to death rather than killing them with hit-point damage).

You might also throw in a feat like Staggering Strike if you can find room for it. It's a really brutal feat that treats a target hit by your melee sneak attack as staggered for one round (can only take one move action or one standard action).

On top of that, a 1-3 level dip in Dervish could also prove useful. You'll already have Dodge and Mobility if you're going Shadowdancer, so you just need Combat Expertise and a Weapon Focus (scimitar being the obvious choice), and you're there. You'll only get one or two uses of the ability per day, but the duration increases as your Perform skill increases ... and as a Shadowdancer, you have Perform as a class skill anyway. With your shadow companion helping you flank, you can unload a full attack for 2 points of Strength damage per hit every round ... even if the target keeps trying to move away.

The biggest problem you'll have is that your shadow companion is always going to be fragile, and stopping to dip into Dervish while also taking Rogue to 10 will make it slightly even more fragile.