Thoughts on Natural Spell houserule

[InfiniteMiller]

Hey guys.

My DM has recently mentioned that he's trying to think of a way to "nerf" Natural Spell so that druids won't be the win buttons at high levels as they seem to be.

I propose that every time a druid with Natural Spell casts a spell it has a 40% chance to cancel the Wildshape involuntarily. For lower level druids, this may be the only time they can Wildshape that day, which means that this should gradually become less of a handicap at higher levels. It should also make druids have more reservations about Wildshaping and casting at once, since casting has a chance to cancel that form completely.

Any feedback on this? Changes? Comments?

[HidaTsuzua]

The problem I have with it is that it's completely random. Basically "maybe maybe not." Things might work out on paper, but it's a pain for different parties on different ends of a streak. Basically it'll feel annoying and random.

My suggestion is make Natural Spell a metamagic feat. +1 Spell Level for example will knock out a druid's highest level spells while shaped and reduce it for other levels. The all-bear all the time druid will still be around but at least he'll have less spells. Increasing casting time is another idea.

[Leon]

why Modify it, just Disallow the feat

[Terraneaux]

Depends entirely on what the rest of the party is. If the rest of them are all spellcasters, natural spell doesn't need the nerf.

[Lord Tataraus]

Make all Druids have the shapeshift variant. It does not work with natural spell and is more balancing.

[Kyeudo]

I thought about changing Natural Spell to a +1 adjustment metamagic feat that only allows you to cast the spell while wild shaped and only while wild shaped, but I never tried it out.

A chance to cancel Wild Shape by casting is flavorless and random and something that never should be done. Some nights the dice just don't like you.

[Jasdoif]

I thought about changing Natural Spell to a +1 adjustment metamagic feat that only allows you to cast the spell while wild shaped and only while wild shaped, but I never tried it out.Why would you decide that they couldn't cast it while not wild shaped, though? If they want to throw away the higher level slot it's prepared in without any benefit, I think I'd let them. It's preferable to giving them another incentive to maintain wild shape, at least.

[ocato]

What I like about the metamagic route is that they have to pick their wildshape spells in advance, forgot to NS your gust of wind? Time to shift out. Seems like a decent decision, though I'd consider +2 to keep them from casting too many of their big daddy spells while wild shaped.

[InfiniteMiller]

It's an interesting route to be sure. I'll mention it to my DM along with my own ideas and we'll see which way he goes. Who knows, he may have thought of something different.

Thanks for the help guys. Much appreciated. :smallsmile:

[CASTLEMIKE]

Let the DM hit it hard with the Nerf bat and disallow the feat since he finds it unbalancing.

Use it as is in campaign but know the DM will be throwing more intelligently played NPC Druid's with Natural Spell, Full Casters and Ur-Lords at the party as a result.

Tweak the feat so that Natural Spell only works with SNA without a level adjustment and has a +1 or +2 LA for other spells.

[Karsh]

Erm... Natural Spell is core.

[Skjaldbakka]

Natural spell as a metamagic feat pretty much fixes it, IMO. Or you could go the extreme route to fix the druid (re: my sig).

[horseboy]

Let the DM hit it hard with the Nerf bat and disallow the feat since it isn't core and he finds it unbalancing.

Natural Spell is core. Pg 98 PHB. But yeah, ban it anyway.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Thanks for the catch. Amended the post.

[Dr. Weasel]

Seems like a decent decision, though I'd consider +2 to keep them from casting too many of their big daddy spells while wild shaped.
Eh, +2 is enough to Silence and Still it. Natural Spell still allows identification of the spell and awareness that you're casting. I'd keep +1.

[Skjaldbakka]

Eh, +2 is enough to Silence and Still it. Natural Spell still allows identification of the spell and awareness that you're casting. I'd keep +1.

That is a pretty good reason to keep it +1. Otherwise there is no reason not to just take Still/Silent spell, which also allow you to cast inside of magical silence effects, or while in a grapple.

[Dausuul]

why Modify it, just Disallow the feat

Seconded. There's no good reason to have Natural Spell. Just ditch it and make the druid actually choose between being a caster and being a tank.

[Skjaldbakka]

I would personally ditch the PHB wildshape altogether, and use the PHBII version. That way the druid's base physicals still matter, and he can't just focus on dex.

[Leon]

Erm... Natural Spell is core.

Core or Not, Everything comes under the scrutiny of what the DM deems allowable.

Banning the Feat is the Simplest Fix

[Skjaldbakka]

True, but he was responding to someone saying it isn't core. That person then editted their post.

I think banning Natural Spell and making it a Metamagic feat with a +1 spell level adjustment are equally good ways of fixing the natural spell problem.

[AtomicKitKat]

Make it a spontaneous spell level increase. Basically, when they cast any spells in Wild Shape, it eats up a higher level slot, and takes a full round action.

[leperkhaun]

I agree making it metamagic with a +1 spell mod is a good choice.

[Skjaldbakka]

Make it a spontaneous spell level increase. Basically, when they cast any spells in Wild Shape, it eats up a higher level slot, and takes a full round action.

I disagree. Make them have to prepare their Natural Spells. They can, of course, still apply natural spell to their spontaneous summoning spells (as normal for spontaneous spellcasting).

+1 Spell Level isn't much of a hit if you can do it spontaneously.

[CrazedGoblin]

why Modify it, just Disallow the feat

thats my tactic for druids

[Jasdoif]

Make it a spontaneous spell level increase. Basically, when they cast any spells in Wild Shape, it eats up a higher level slot, and takes a full round action.How would you propose implementing this for a prepared caster? Something like spontaneously converting any 3rd level slot into any prepared 2nd level spell?

[AtomicKitKat]

How would you propose implementing this for a prepared caster? Something like spontaneously converting any 3rd level slot into any prepared 2nd level spell?

Yep. It goes by empty slot first, since those are easier to "overwrite the data", so to speak, then goes to the nearest spell by type(eg, Summon 3 for Summon 2, Call Lightning Storm instead of Call Lightning), then by school(Evocation to Evocation), then random.

[Ulzgoroth]

Shapeshift may be nicely balanced, but it completely fails to actually implement turning into animals.

Thus not necessarily being a satisfactory substitution for Wild Shape.

[Dausuul]

Yep. It goes by empty slot first, since those are easier to "overwrite the data", so to speak, then goes to the nearest spell by type(eg, Summon 3 for Summon 2, Call Lightning Storm instead of Call Lightning), then by school(Evocation to Evocation), then random.

Yeeargh! That would be a nightmare to handle in play.

If you want to go this route, just make Natural Spell a metamagic feat with +1 level. Much simpler. Though I still prefer to ban it entirely.

[Falrin]

1) Ban the Feat

2) +1 / +2 Metamagic Feat

3) X / day (3 , int mod, ...à

4) Wild feat: Expend 1 wildshape to cast spell.

5) LvL Limit: Max LvL : 1/4 caster LvL

6) Any combination fo the above.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd say go for the +2 metamagic. +1 is too little, a druid with (effectively) a -2 to caster level is still made of awesome.

Yes, it's worse than still + silent, but the latter costs two feats, and druids don't get all that many.

[KIDS]

I recommend PHB2's shapeshift, you still have wildshape, but more reasonable, and can't cast in it but you can shift out fast and cast something if you need to. Simple and effective. You can keep or remove the animal companion as the variant says, completely up to you.

Otherwise, making Natural Spell a +1 spell level increasing metamagic is a solid fix too. And if you ban it, you open a new chain of options through Fast Wildshape/Quicken Spell for when you really need that spell. All those options seem satisfactory to me.

[AtomicKitKat]

Yeeargh! That would be a nightmare to handle in play.

If you want to go this route, just make Natural Spell a metamagic feat with +1 level. Much simpler. Though I still prefer to ban it entirely.

Meh. You don't have to go through every spell like I suggested. Just pick one of the higher ones at random to lose.

[Chronos]

Yes, it's worse than still + silent, but the latter costs two feats, and druids don't get all that many.Then again, some spells naturally lack a verbal or somatic component, and some animal forms can handle some components (many birds, for instance, can talk). Of course, a spellcasting raven isn't quite the same thing as a spellcasting dire grizzly, either...

[Stormcrow]

Since the release of PHB2 every DM I've played with has had a clause in their CDS (Campaign Disclosure Statement) that says "Druids will be played as per the PHB2 shape shifting variant" and it is notably incompatible with natural spell.

[Aquillion]

Honestly? I'd say just disallow it completely. It's not like Druids need the boost it gives them; they'll still be a top-tier class even without it. If a Druid really, really wants to be able to cast spells while wild shaped, make them use still + silent spell; sure, that's two feats and costs a higher level spell slot, but they're negating one of the few disadvantages of a major class feature. That should be extremely difficult to do.

[Skjaldbakka]

I think that it would be better for them to pay the +1 spell level for natural spell, rather than the +2 for still/silent, given that the +2 for still/silent also gives them other benefits besides being able to cast in wildshape.