Set grapple DCs and wild shape

[PancakeMaster80]

When my druid transforms into a giant scorpion, are the grapples to escape its claw attacks still set as DC 12 from the mm, or do they become a contested roll like trying to escape from a normal grapple my character could impose on the target?

Follow up, if my druid is forced to use the DC 12 claw grapple, can they forgo a claw attack to normal grapple a target instead?

[Man_Over_Game]

When my druid transforms into a giant scorpion, are the grapples to escape its claw attacks still set as DC 12 from the mm, or do they become a contested roll like trying to escape from a normal grapple my character could impose on the target?

Follow up, if my druid is forced to use the DC 12 claw grapple, can they forgo a claw attack to normal grapple a target instead?

They are set to be 12 DC, and you cannot substitute Multiattack attacks for a grapple.

A Multiattack Action is not the same thing as an Attack Action. Rather, you have two options for using your Action for attacking:


Multiattack Action, using the Multiattack feature from the creature's stat block (if any). You obey any numbers/damage/DCs listed on the Multiattack
Attack Action, using the Extra Attack feature from your character levels (if any), being able to substitute any of these attacks for a Special Attack option (like Grapple). Any attacks use your stats/proficiencies to determine their damage or DCs.




Of course, you can always talk to your DM about creating a different option. I'd probably rule it as allowing you to substitute DCs for your Spell Save DC if it is higher, as Spell Save DC is a lot harder to cheese than Athletics and Expertise.

[strangebloke]

When my druid transforms into a giant scorpion, are the grapples to escape its claw attacks still set as DC 12 from the mm, or do they become a contested roll like trying to escape from a normal grapple my character could impose on the target?

Follow up, if my druid is forced to use the DC 12 claw grapple, can they forgo a claw attack to normal grapple a target instead?

The grapple that comes with the attack has an escape DC of 12.

Any grapple you make will be rolled for. So you can claw-grapple, and then grapple then with your action on a following turn. But it's not really worth it.

[Cynthaer]

What everyone else said is correct, but I'd like to offer a little design insight that.

The static grapple DCs for monsters are all set to [10 + Strength (Athletics)] — although as far as I'm aware none of the monsters with built-in grapples have Athletics proficiency, so it's just [10 + Strength].

Statistically, rolling your escape check against a static [10 + Strength] is the same as rolling a contested check against [1d20 + Strength]*, but it saves a die roll and makes combat go faster.

Since all transforming effects (like Wild Shape) affect your physical stats, there's almost no scenario where your Strength would be different from the monster's stat block, so this doesn't really matter. But if you were a Giant Scorpion and a Shadow hit you with a Strength drain, for instance, I would say it's appropriate to lower the stated grapple DC accordingly.

* I know, 1d20 technically averages out to 10.5, not 10. But it's close enough for the designers, and it's close enough for me.

EDIT: Actually, I forgot that Wild Shape explicitly lets you apply your skill proficiencies. So if the druid has Athletics proficiency, I would also add the proficiency bonus to the listed escape DC.

To be clear, this is not explicitly written out in the rules, but I think it's a clear inference from the design.


Grapple Rules for Monsters

Many monsters have special attacks that allow them to quickly grapple prey. When a monster hits with such an attack, it doesn't need to make an additional ability check to determine whether the grapple succeeds, unless the attack says otherwise.

A creature grappled by the monster can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the escape DC in the monster's stat block. If no escape DC is given, assume the DC is 10 + the monster's Strength (Athletics) modifier.

[Man_Over_Game]

What everyone else said is correct, but I'd like to offer a little design insight that.

The static grapple DCs for monsters are all set to [10 + Strength (Athletics)] — although as far as I'm aware none of the monsters with built-in grapples have Athletics proficiency, so it's just [10 + Strength].

Statistically, rolling your escape check against a static [10 + Strength] is the same as rolling a contested check against [1d20 + Strength]*, but it saves a die roll and makes combat go faster.

Since all transforming effects (like Wild Shape) affect your physical stats, there's almost no scenario where your Strength would be different from the monster's stat block, so this doesn't really matter. But if you were a Giant Scorpion and a Shadow hit you with a Strength drain, for instance, I would say it's appropriate to lower the stated grapple DC accordingly.

* I know, 1d20 technically averages out to 10.5, not 10. But it's close enough for the designers, and it's close enough for me.

EDIT: Actually, I forgot that Wild Shape explicitly lets you apply your skill proficiencies. So if the druid has Athletics proficiency, I would also add the proficiency bonus to the listed escape DC.

To be clear, this is not explicitly written out in the rules, but I think it's a clear inference from the design.

That's a very interesting excerpt. On one hand, it makes sense to me that the DC on the grapple for the attack is lower due to the economy benefit of grappling as part of an attack.

On the other hand, there is no instance where the DC is actually lower or higher than the monster's Athletics + Strength bonus. If there WAS supposed to be a deficit in the effectiveness of the free grapple, you'd think that its DC would be lower than the monster's base grapple attempt. The deficit is only existent when considering the Druid's Wild Shape, which implies, to me, that it's not intentional.

[PancakeMaster80]

Thanks for the responses, that helps clear things up for me =)


EDIT: Actually, I forgot that Wild Shape explicitly lets you apply your skill proficiencies. So if the druid has Athletics proficiency, I would also add the proficiency bonus to the listed escape DC.

To be clear, this is not explicitly written out in the rules, but I think it's a clear inference from the design.

I'll have to ask my GMs about that, since this character will have expertise in athletics, it'd be nice to apply it to that escape DC

[Man_Over_Game]

I just realized something, though. If the intent was to allow the Druid's proficiency to the DC's of special attacks, then the Druid should also be able to use their proficiency for the monster's attack options.

Of course, the Druid can't, so it makes no sense to allow just grappling to allow use of the Druid's proficiencies when similar features can't.

[PancakeMaster80]

I just realized something, though. If the intent was to allow the Druid's proficiency to the DC's of special attacks, then the Druid should also be able to use their proficiency for the monster's attack options.

Of course, the Druid can't, so it makes no sense to allow just grappling to allow use of the Druid's proficiencies when similar features can't.

That's actually covered by druids not being proficient in "natural weapons", so it still doesn't solve this questions.

[Cynthaer]

That's a very interesting excerpt. On one hand, it makes sense to me that the DC on the grapple for the attack is lower due to the economy benefit of grappling as part of an attack.

On the other hand, there is no instance where the DC is actually lower or higher than the monster's Athletics + Strength bonus. If there WAS supposed to be a deficit in the effectiveness of the free grapple, you'd think that its DC would be lower than the monster's base grapple attempt. The deficit is only existent when considering the Druid's Wild Shape, which implies, to me, that it's not intentional.
IMO, the design reasoning here is basically this:

1. There's no need to lower the effective DC to account for the "economy benefit", because the whole package just goes into the monster's total power budget. If a free grapple on hit is too powerful, then you'd just design it a different way or accept a higher CR.

2. I think the "Grapple Rules for Monsters" excerpt makes it clear that [10 + Strength (Athletics)] is the "real" mechanic in play for monster grapples, and the printed DCs are (correctly) provided for the DM's convenience.

3. Monster stat blocks are designed for DMs running NPCs, not players using transformation effects. So even if it occurred to them, it doesn't surprise me that they printed the static DCs without a disclaimer anywhere saying, "btw, these might be inaccurate if you're a druid with Athletics proficiency".

Basically, even though I think adjusting the DCs for Druids' Athletics proficiency is the correct approach, I also wouldn't bother wasting page space in either the Monster Manual or the PHB on clarifying it. It's just not very high stakes.


I'll have to ask my GMs about that, since this character will have expertise in athletics, it'd be nice to apply it to that escape DC
I'd say it's worth asking.

Basically, I'd point them to the Introduction of the Monster Manual, and the Wild Shape Druid feature.


GRAPPLE RULES FOR MONSTERS

Many monsters have special attacks that allow them to quickly grapple prey. When a monster hits with such an attack, it doesn’t need to make an additional ability check to determine whether the grapple succeeds, unless the attack says otherwise.

A creature grappled by the monster can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the escape DC in the monster’s stat block. If no escape DC is given, assume the DC is 10 + the monster’s Strength (Athletics) modifier.

- Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
​EDIT: This is wrong, see my next comment.

The short, straightforward version I'd present is this:


The MM says to use [10 + Strength (Athletics)] for grapple DCs.
If you look at the actual monsters, that's how they've calculated all of the printed grapple DCs, so clearly that's the intent.
A Wild Shaped Druid keeps their Athletics proficiency.
This already applies to normal (contested) grapple checks anyway.
Ergo, it should increase the grapple DC.


If they're not convinced, it's not the end of the world. The "balance" involved with players using NPC stat blocks is already wonky, so this won't tip it very far one way or the other.

[Cynthaer]

You know what, I should apologize. I didn't fully do my research before opining on the design.

In fact, there are many monsters with grapple DCs that don't match their Strength modifiers—it's just that most of them aren't "beasts". I didn't see them the first time around because I was checking individual monsters from memory, but global searching DnDBeyond monsters for "grapple" reveals a lot.

In most instances, like the Choker and the Tri-flower Frond, they've basically just slapped an arbitrary modifier on to represent a monster with low Strength who's nonetheless good at grappling specifically.

So, this obviously changes things. Honestly, I think my argument still kind of holds for Wild Shape, because I haven't found any Beasts that aren't using 10 + Str. But, there's no hard-and-fast rule that says it must be the same value, so we can't infer that your proficiency must apply.

[NaughtyTiger]

Yes, a DC12 is horribly easy to overcome, but that is not the point.

you get 2 chances to hit with the claw.
When the scorpion hits with the claw, the target is grappled. it is not a contested grapple check. target grappled. on the target's turn, she may spend an action to break the grapple.

depending on how your DM reads it, hitting the target with both claws, means that the target must spend 2 actions to break free (1 for each claw).
Druid hits with both claws. Tabitha uses her action to break free of left claw. But she is still grappled by the right claw.
Druid uses his free left claw to attack Tabitha again. Tabitha curses her deities.

[PancakeMaster80]

Yes, a DC12 is horribly easy to overcome, but that is not the point.

you get 2 chances to hit with the claw.
When the scorpion hits with the claw, the target is grappled. it is not a contested grapple check. target grappled. on the target's turn, she may spend an action to break the grapple.

depending on how your DM reads it, hitting the target with both claws, means that the target must spend 2 actions to break free (1 for each claw).
Druid hits with both claws. Tabitha uses her action to break free of left claw. But she is still grappled by the right claw.
Druid uses his free left claw to attack Tabitha again. Tabitha curses her deities.

I'm not trying to say the 12dc auto grapple is bad, I just want to make sure I understand how it applies compared to a normal grapple.

[NaughtyTiger]

I'm not trying to say the 12dc auto grapple is bad, I just want to make sure I understand how it applies compared to a normal grapple.

ah, my bad.

Most DMs I have had have been permissive about changing DCs in wildshape, but i am lazy and happy with the autograpple as is.

[PancakeMaster80]

ah, my bad.

Most DMs I have had have been permissive about changing DCs in wildshape, but i am lazy and happy with the autograpple as is.

It would be pretty sweet for my prodigy feat to set my auto escapes to upwards of 24 =P

[Shuruke]

I'm not trying to say the 12dc auto grapple is bad, I just want to make sure I understand how it applies compared to a normal grapple.

Could be funny with grappler feat for advantage on attacks against targets grappled by u.

[PancakeMaster80]

Could be funny with grappler feat for advantage on attacks against targets grappled by u.

That is exactly what my druid does to counteract the crummy hit scores a lot of beasts have =D