Question About Regeneration and Damage Reduction

[Schadenfreuda]

If you are a creature with, let's say, Damage Reduction 5/Adamant and Regeneration 5/Acid, just to pick at random, these are separate traits, yes? Overcoming Damage Reduction does not overcome Regeneration, and anything overcoming Regeneration is still subject to DR?

And if, say, you have Regeneration 5 and no stated weaknesses, an opponent has no choice but to go through non-hitpoint attacks like death effects and ability damage to kill you at all?

[Boci]

For the first question yes, although dor the DR: Adamantium, regeneration: acid its worth noting acid and other energy types are not subject to DR, so you can just use acid.

For the second one generally yes, though wish may be able to supress the regeneration, DM dependant. Regeneration also deosn't restore hitpoints from suffocation, so whilst very difficult there are other options.

[Climowitz]

If you hace damage reduction 5 / Adamantium you reduce every hit's damage by 5 unless you are hit with Adamantium. If you have Regeneration 5 / Acid you convert every damage you get into non lethal damage unless you are being hit with acid. If you have regeneration 5 with no given weakness I would assume those weaknesses are fire and slashing since no creature is immune to lethal damage.

[Covenant12]

Boci is correct. DR does not affect acid damage. Adamantium weapons would do full non-lethal damage, but it wouldn't bypass regeneration.

Suppressing regen should be very within wish power levels, but is still DM call. There's a FR spell, somebody's graymantle that directly suppresses regen and other abilities. Do a lot of damage while that is affecting them and they die.

And as Boci mentioned other ways. Suffocation/drowning, reduce Con to 0. Some undead that drain abilities like Str call out they die at 0, and that would still apply. And tons of not technically killing spells like flesh to stone, or many higher level save or dies.

[Jack_Simth]

no creature is immune to lethal damage.Mr. T's entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) says otherwise. Regeneration X/- is well within the rules. Core, even.

[Crichton]

Mr. T's entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) says otherwise. Regeneration X/- is well within the rules. Core, even.

That's not the same as immunity to lethal damage, though. Regen X with no /whatever entry after it means that all damage taken is nonlethal damage, unlike regen X/acid, where non-acid damage is nonlethal, but acid damage is lethal.

[Menzath]

Drowning isn't an attack. Except for a few specific spells or abilities that force drowning saves...

[Jack_Simth]

That's not the same as immunity to lethal damage, though. Regen X with no /whatever entry after it means that all damage taken is nonlethal damage, unlike regen X/acid, where non-acid damage is nonlethal, but acid damage is lethal.

I'll expand the quote, a bit, then, so you've got the context:

If you have regeneration 5 with no given weakness I would assume those weaknesses are fire and slashing since no creature is immune to lethal damage.

[Crichton]

I'll expand the quote, a bit, then, so you've got the context:

Ok good point. I misread that.

[St Fan]

Against regeneration, there's also Trollbane (from Dungeonscape), a poison that work against every regenerating creatures (not just trolls) and makes one weapon attack lethal, whatever the usual vulnerability.

Better keep it for a coup de grâce after putting the opponent unconscious, of course.

But yes, there are plenty ways of dealing with a regenerating creature than counting on the one vulnerability.

A failed save against Disintegrate can certainly be homebrewed to do the trick: even if the damage is considered non-lethal, it's hard to regenerate from a pile of dust.

[geekintheground]

Against regeneration, there's also Trollbane (from Dungeonscape), a poison that work against every regenerating creatures (not just trolls) and makes one weapon attack lethal, whatever the usual vulnerability.

Better keep it for a coup de grâce after putting the opponent unconscious, of course.

But yes, there are plenty ways of dealing with a regenerating creature than counting on the one vulnerability.

A failed save against Disintegrate can certainly be homebrewed to do the trick: even if the damage is considered non-lethal, it's hard to regenerate from a pile of dust.

deadpool begs to differ :smalltongue:

[Rijan_Sai]

(2)Against regeneration, there's also Trollbane (from Dungeonscape), a poison that work against every regenerating creatures (not just trolls) and makes one weapon attack lethal, whatever the usual vulnerability.

Better keep it for a coup de grâce after putting the opponent unconscious, of course.

But yes, there are plenty ways of dealing with a regenerating creature than counting on the one vulnerability.

(1)A failed save against Disintegrate can certainly be homebrewed to do the trick: even if the damage is considered non-lethal, it's hard to regenerate from a pile of dust.

(1) Except that if the damage is non-lethal, they will never reach 0HP in order to be disintegrated... (remember, non-lethal damage adds up, and when it is equal to/greater than the target's current HP, they are knocked unconscious. NLD will NEVER result in a creature dying, even then, barring DM intervention.)

(2) This is true, although if the creature has Regen and DR, the attack will still be subject to the DR.

[Remuko]

deadpool begs to differ :smalltongue:

well to be fair he said it would be HARD not that it would be impossible :smalltongue:

Also my 3.0 knowledge (as opposed to 3.5) might be a bit rusty, but I recall in 3.0 non-lethal was called subdual damage, and if you took subdual damage equal to your hp you then started taking lethal damage from subdual dealing hits iirc? Can someone confirm? I dont have my 3.0 book anymore to check. Either way, I kinda liked that (if its even a thing im remembering correctly).

[Schadenfreuda]

Follow-up question now, if a creature has Regeneration and no weaknesses, and is immune to fire and acid, is the best way to kill it through death effects and Ability Score damage?

[Jack_Simth]

Follow-up question now, if a creature has Regeneration and no weaknesses, and is immune to fire and acid, is the best way to kill it through death effects and Ability Score damage?

Trollbane, or anything that bypasses HP. Ability damage, ability drain, negative levels, death effects, Flesh to Stone, whatever.

[Covenant12]

Follow-up question now, if a creature has Regeneration and no weaknesses, and is immune to fire and acid, is the best way to kill it through death effects and Ability Score damage?If you can't do lethal damage to a regenerating creature for whatever reason, you can just do 100's of points of non-lethal damage to keep it inactive. Then suffocation is usually cheap, cover its head with dirt or sand or water. If it doesn't breath at all you need to get creative.

But yes, save-or-dies still work. Finger of death, flesh to stone. And if Con reaches 0, from ability damage, drain, or both a living creature flat out dies. Even at full health. There are exceptions, but Con - creatures don't usually regenerate, only fast healing.

When I mentioned Str 0 that was a special case, Str or Dex 0 from damage usually just immobilizes you. If it was from pure drain basically forever, or until someone casts restoration.

Most regeneration is pierced by fire, acid or both. Even without magic you could do 100's of nonlethal, then try to coup de grace with alchemist's fire or acid flasks. If you can't damage it and it doesn't breath you may flat out need magic. Or do 1000's of nonlethal damage and simply leave.

[Schadenfreuda]

Third question now: What's the easiest way to acquire Regeneration as a PC? Is there a build that includes it? Is it something you can only get while shapeshifted?

[JNAProductions]

Third question now: What's the easiest way to acquire Regeneration as a PC? Is there a build that includes it? Is it something you can only get while shapeshifted?

Troll-Blooded. Regional Feat from Faerun, requires Toughness as a pre-req.

[Jack_Simth]

Troll-Blooded. Regional Feat from Faerun, requires Toughness as a pre-req.

Yep. It's a first level feat.

[tterreb]

Troll-Blooded. Regional Feat from Faerun, requires Toughness as a pre-req.
That's dragon magazine though. The only first party content I've been able to find is the fifth level cleric spell Monstrous Regeneration, from Magic of Faerun.

[Aotrs Commander]

That's not the same as immunity to lethal damage, though. Regen X with no /whatever entry after it means that all damage taken is nonlethal damage, unlike regen X/acid, where non-acid damage is nonlethal, but acid damage is lethal.

It does explictly say in the Regeneraton entry:


Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

However, I would posit that the Tarrasque is a specifc and intended sole exception (since it has all those other qualifiers); nothing else I'm aware of (not that my 3.5 monster knowledge is completely exhaustive, though) has regen without a vulnerability. (As everything is designed to be killed by PCs, after all, not be the end-of-game-level boss monster doofer.)


(Incidently, that wording might imply that Disintegrate ought to (was intended to?) kill creatures if it does enough nonlethal damage, or it may be a hold-over from before it actually did damage.)



(I did, in fact, have to be exceptionally careful when stating out Spirit-Bound Liches for 3.Aotrs to explictly NOT call their healing "regeneration" but "rejuvenation" simply on the basis that if they had regen, it would make them immune to all damage bar the handful of exceptions that dealth lethal damage.)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Likely going to require a PC that's at least partially monstrous. Some variety of troll or half-troll, possibly the Tauric Creature template (the lower half creature can have LA --, which gives you more flexibility).

I wonder if there's a soulmeld that gives regeneration when bound...

[ayvango]

The Shriver magical location from Fiendish Codex II grants regeneration. It lasts 99 days and costs 30k gold.

[Jack_Simth]

The Shriver magical location from Fiendish Codex II grants regeneration. It lasts 99 days and costs 30k gold.
It's also renewable! You can extend the effects without going back. Theoretically forever.

[Zaq]

The flux adept (a PrC in Dragon Compendium) gets regeneration all day every day at level 9.

The downside is that flux adept is seriously one of the worst PrCs in the game. It’s just straight garbage. I judged an entire Iron Chef round devoted to it, and it really has no redeeming qualities.

[Schadenfreuda]

However, I would posit that the Tarrasque is a specifc and intended sole exception (since it has all those other qualifiers); nothing else I'm aware of (not that my 3.5 monster knowledge is completely exhaustive, though) has regen without a vulnerability. (As everything is designed to be killed by PCs, after all, not be the end-of-game-level boss monster doofer.)

Solar Angels have Regeneration 15, and though they don't have the Tarrasque's special Regeneration description, they also don't have any listed vulnerabilities. They're even immune to acid damage, though not to fire.

[lord_khaine]

Solars Regeneration specifically says they take normal damage from Evil Weapons.

[Crichton]

It does explictly say in the Regeneraton entry:



However, I would posit that the Tarrasque is a specifc and intended sole exception (since it has all those other qualifiers); nothing else I'm aware of (not that my 3.5 monster knowledge is completely exhaustive, though) has regen without a vulnerability. (As everything is designed to be killed by PCs, after all, not be the end-of-game-level boss monster doofer.)


(Incidently, that wording might imply that Disintegrate ought to (was intended to?) kill creatures if it does enough nonlethal damage, or it may be a hold-over from before it actually did damage.)



(I did, in fact, have to be exceptionally careful when stating out Spirit-Bound Liches for 3.Aotrs to explictly NOT call their healing "regeneration" but "rejuvenation" simply on the basis that if they had regen, it would make them immune to all damage bar the handful of exceptions that dealth lethal damage.)


Yeah, I had misread the quote and redacted my statement a couple posts later.

However, from a pure theorycrafting standpoint, IF a creature did have a regen entry that didn't have a /weakness after it, according to the Regen special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration), they wouldn't have any way to take lethal damage. I don't think any such creature exists aside from the Tarrasque, but according to how Regen is laid out, while they wouldn't be technically immune to lethal damage, they wouldn't be able to take any.


I've heard it argued that because the Regen entry says "typically fire and acid" that with unlisted weaknesses it would default to those, but it also says "The creature’s description includes the details" with regard to what sort of damage bypasses their regen, so I don't think it's true that fire/acid is the fallback.


Solar Angels have Regeneration 15, and though they don't have the Tarrasque's special Regeneration description, they also don't have any listed vulnerabilities. They're even immune to acid damage, though not to fire.

That's inaccurate. Their listed vulnerabilities are Epic and Evil:


A solar takes normal damage from epic evil-aligned weapons, and from spells or effects with the evil descriptor.

[Schadenfreuda]

[QUOTE=Drysdan;23896886 That's inaccurate. Their listed vulnerabilities are Epic and Evil:[/QUOTE]

Oh, right, my bad. I was only looking at the statblock, not the description.