Divine Minion Template + Druid = How does Wild Shape work?

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Let's assume I'm a NG Human Druid5 with the Divine Minion template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (a Divine Minion of Thoth as an example). Since I have Wild Shape from Druid levels as well as this template, can I use the template's at-will free action Wild Shape to activate any of my class-granted Wild Shape forms such as Fleshraker?

If so, does this mean that, once I reach Druid5, I can freely Wild Shape into any Small or Medium Animal? What about Large since the template grants Wild Shape as a Druid11?

Thankee!

[gkathellar]

Let's do a close reading of the text in order to produce the most absurdly literal answer possible!

(This is what I'm using my education for.)

I'm going to emphasize and mark a couple of key points.


Fast Wild Shape (Su): A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves (divine minions of Set also have a vermin form). (1) The divine minion can use this ability at will, (2) can change form as a free action, (3) and can spend time in animal form indefinitely. They prefer to keep their shapechanging abilities secret so that they can use them to surprise their enemies in combat. (4)Unlike a druid, minions can use this ability even if they're wearing metal armor.

Now, point (1) explicitly says that only "this ability" can be used at will. What does that mean? It's not clear, but because point (4) also mentions "this ability" as something distinct from a normal druid's wildshape, we know that they're being treated as distinct. I would say this is adequate justification to assert that they don't stack and that a druid's normal wild shape does not gain unlimited uses by virtue of this ability.

Point (2), however, raises questions. Because it says, "change form", instead of something like "use this ability" or "use Fast Wild Shape," it raises the possibility that it affects all changes of form. This is a horrifying thought, although we could probably finagle our way around it working on Shapechange by noting that spells have a casting time. On the other hand, what does "change form" refer to? It's not clear, but Wild Shape does use the phrase, "changing form," so maybe we can make that apply. On the other other hand, there is no answer here, since this ability's text is mathematically imprecise.

Point (3) is a little more specific than (2), but not by much. It either means that all changes into "animal form" - which is a change into the Animal type, probably - now have unlimited duration, or it means absolutely nothing, since nothing was preventing you from spending an indefinite amount of non-consecutive time in animal form as it was.

In conclusion: RAW, taken to its logical extreme, is incoherent. Use your best judgment.

[Bronk]

Greetings, all!

Let's assume I'm a NG Human Druid5 with the Divine Minion template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (a Divine Minion of Thoth as an example). Since I have Wild Shape from Druid levels as well as this template, can I use the template's at-will free action Wild Shape to activate any of my class-granted Wild Shape forms such as Fleshraker?

If so, does this mean that, once I reach Druid5, I can freely Wild Shape into any Small or Medium Animal? What about Large since the template grants Wild Shape as a Druid11?

Thankee!

No, in this case you have two completely separate abilities.

As a 5th level druid you can wild shape into any small or medium animal once per day for 5 hours. You could also take a wild feat and use use your wild shape usage to power that.

As a divine minion of Thoth, you only have access to baboon and ibis forms, although you can change as many times as you like, and stay in those forms as long as you like.

Looking at the list of this and other divine minions, it makes sense that the ability is set as an 11th level druid because some of them are large like the lion (8th level druid), and some of them are tiny like the ibis (11th level druid), and many of them have more than one HD, so a divine minion of Anhur with only 1HD can still turn into a lion, a large animal with 5HD... somehow.

The part you'll have to talk about with your DM is if the ability (for example) turns a first level divine minion into a weak 1HD Lion, a 5 HD lion with hit points to match, or a 5HD lion with the equivalent hit points of an 11th level druid, because it doesn't specify and the DM could easily nerf it so that you couldn't take lion form until 5th level to reduce headaches.

[Remuko]

Fast Wild Shape (Su): A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid

This text seems nearly identical to creatures with racial casting, casting spells like an X-level Y-caster. Spellcasting monsters with such an ability, have their racial casting stack with class levels. Idk, it doesnt seem outlandish to me that this be treated the same way. Thus you would add your levels of druid to the Fast Wild Shape ability to determine your wild shape capabilities.

[Bronk]

This text seems nearly identical to creatures with racial casting, casting spells like an X-level Y-caster. Spellcasting monsters with such an ability, have their racial casting stack with class levels. Idk, it doesnt seem outlandish to me that this be treated the same way. Thus you would add your levels of druid to the Fast Wild Shape ability to determine your wild shape capabilities.

That would be... extremely beneficial for the player.

[Endarire]

To me, the most likely and logical way to handle the different Wild Shape abilities is to keep them separated.

[Remuko]

That would be... extremely beneficial for the player.

it would but to me its more internally consistent with other racial abilities that function as Xth level class abilities/features.

[Bronk]

it would but to me its more internally consistent with other racial abilities that function as Xth level class abilities/features.

I disagree, partly because those rules are for spellcasting, but also because the wild shape abilities of the druid and divine minions don't mesh well. Druids have access to more forms, but are restricted to duration, uses per day, and by HD, while divine minions only have a HD limit of 11. If you were to merge them, you could have a seventh level druid wild shaping into an 18HD dire polar bear, which would be pretty disruptive.

I also don't think it works with the divine minion fluff of showing off animal forms related to the deity.

Maybe in a high level game, or under special quest circumstances though?

[Remuko]

I disagree, partly because those rules are for spellcasting, but also because the wild shape abilities of the druid and divine minions don't mesh well. Druids have access to more forms, but are restricted to duration, uses per day, and by HD, while divine minions only have a HD limit of 11. If you were to merge them, you could have a seventh level druid wild shaping into an 18HD dire polar bear, which would be pretty disruptive.

I also don't think it works with the divine minion fluff of showing off animal forms related to the deity.

Maybe in a high level game, or under special quest circumstances though?

yeah as i said i wasnt considering any balance perspective, just internal rules consistency. If racial spellcasting mimicking a class stacks with the class, I see no reason any other racial features mimicking class features shouldnt do the same. Again just from a rules consistently point of view.

[Bronk]

yeah as i said i wasnt considering any balance perspective, just internal rules consistency. If racial spellcasting mimicking a class stacks with the class, I see no reason any other racial features mimicking class features shouldnt do the same. Again just from a rules consistently point of view.

I think the difference is that most races with native spellcasting have their caster level set near or below their number of HD (nymphs are only one higher, dragons are much lower). There usually isn't a case where a 5th level character has 16th level casting. So it would be more consistent if the divine minion template came with 11 RHD.

[Remuko]

I think the difference is that most races with native spellcasting have their caster level set near or below their number of HD (nymphs are only one higher, dragons are much lower). There usually isn't a case where a 5th level character has 16th level casting. So it would be more consistent if the divine minion template came with 11 RHD.

that just feels like its focusing on balance again. sure that would be more balanced but im not looking at balance at all. im actively ignoring it, because internal consistency is not tied to it in any way.