World of Warcraft story complaints

[Thoughtbot360]

*Warning Warcraft-related details inside. Newbies might not make any sense out of this*

I really don't understand the set-up of the Alliance and Horde races in WOW. As a fan that played the whole warcraft series (and recently played Warcraft 3 before WOW came out) I come away with the impression that Blizzard just threw the Undead in with the Horde because every other race is "monstrous" and the reason they had Night Elves join the Alliance is because they were too well showcased in WC3 to leave until an expansion (and they couldn't have them join the Horde because Zombies go with Orcs and Trolls like ..... something that very sterotypical combination. And they had to have those radical -radical I say!- Blood Elves join in with the Zombie's faction in the expansion.) And the Blood Elves have a language barrier raised between their former comrades (Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes) AND their cousins with whom they share a base civilization (Night Elves) when they do join the Horde:smallannoyed: .

Personally, I would have preferred that Blood Elves be part of the Alliance, and Night Elves be part of the Horde, and have them (the Elves) share a common language (Btw, if we agreed that a language barrier is an annoying, pointless artifice in WOW that actually takes away from the game, and therefore instate some kind of universal language like they had in WC3, that might make the game better by itself, but moving on.) Here are reasons why.

NE matches Horde because:
-Predatory mount, just like other hordes (Kodos swallow units whole in WC3)
-The males are actually big and masculine (However that Ear-bobbing thing they do is just wrong. It doesn't happen with the NE females.)
-So you can rub in the alliances face that you have sluttier dancers than they do because those pansy, prude Paladins wouldn't have it. (Sadly, I've never actually played Burning Crusade and the only BE female dance I know is one kind of tame one they did in a pre-release demo. They might have changed it.)
-Especially when you consider all the different skin tones (including the drow-like ones) they really do seem to fit in the horde
-Shamanism goes hand-in-hand with Druidism, and besides, Tauren are already part of the Cenarian circle, and they were taught druidism by Cenarius AND Malfurion.
-Look, they fought together to stop the demons. True, they fought with the humans too, but they fought with refugees from the ruined nation of Lordaeron, not with the Stormwind guard. They fought with the Dwarves, too, however. Though I doubt very much that the Night Elves would allow King Bronzebeard to defile Mulgore in search of his precious "ancestral secrets." Respect for nature and all that.
-Its not really known how much Diplomacy the Nation of Azeroth (Stormwind) could do with a people who live on the other side of the world. My guess: Very little to none. But then again this problem exists with the horde and the forsaken.
-Do we know whether or not the second troll empire that the Highborne NEs destroyed (the other one was Zul'Aman, populated by Forest Trolls) was populated by Dark or Jungle trolls? Also, the Highborne became Blood Elves eventually, as explored below.

BE Doesn't match Horde because:
-Look, if you think your Obese Rhino/Dinosaur/Giant Dog is lame, do you really want a chicken to shrink your viable options for a cooler mount?
-Do you really want a Paladin on your side that much? Don't do it! He'll put a stop to all your slutty dancers with his prudish prudeness!
-So as not to boil the issue down to a choice between giant chickens and slutty dancers, I will also point out that the Trolls lost their empires to Night Elf MAGES, but those same mages would later be banished from Kalimdor and become High Elves and later on, Blood Elves.
-I personally think they overdid it with the haunched soldiers on every male in the horde, but I must say that the BEs really, really, don't fit in. They are just not weird enough. The NEs may not be ugly, but they fit in several other criteria (Weird skin, Tall-as-hell, Men are MEN, shadowy and potentially misunderstood, Nature-based mysticism, menacing history of mysterious, unstudied culture 'cuz they killed any invaders for ten thousand years, etc.)

BE matches Alliance because:
-Dude, they ride giant chickens, just like the gnomes! XD
-They were in the Alliance, they got mad that the humans let the old horde destroy so much of Quel'thalas in WC2. However, THE HORDE WERE THE ONES WHO INVADED QUEL'THALAS AND DID THE DAMAGE!! Really, they should have just as much to be mad at the Orcs for as the humans or the drenai. Actually, isn't hatred for the orcs (even though they've changed their ways) is supposedly one of the major things that kepts the alliance together (even though they really should worry more about the undead scrouge)
-They worship the light, starting from worshipping the sun, mostly because they turned their back on the moon (which the Night Elves worship). But somewhere along the way they picked up on the humans' beliefs. (Priests in WC3 are High/Blood Elves)
-Mad that FF XI sucked so much and now you'll never see your Hume ride a chocobo again? Well, just make a human and raise your rep with the BEs, and voila! Chocobo-esque mount!
-The expected norm for a Tolkenesque Forgotten Realms collection of "good" races made up entirely of "normal," human-like, white guys. ....on Second thought, this a terrible point, can we scratch this one?
-They taught magery to humans, and I assume, to Gnomes as well. Heck, mage could be an alliance-only class... but I really do hate how Warlocks are a horde class (I even think it should be considered an "evil" NPC class, like the Necromancer. Necromancer=loyal to Lich King, Warlock=loyal to Burning Legion).
-They should be able to speak common, because they were part of the alliance to begin with. This only makes SENSE.

But what about the Forsaken?
-What about the Naga? They are still hostile NPCs, despite how important they were to the story of TFT. A newb who never played WC3 never understands their significance. And OMG how I'd like to have an amphibious character who never drowns over some boring old zombie. *Is mauled by every goth kid in the horde* I REGRET NOTHI-umgfhhzhle *face is melted by undead shadow priests*

[Icewalker]

Um, you've got a lot of your points wrong...

The undead don't join the horde. The Horde HATE the undead. The Forsaken join the horde. The ones which loath the scourge, because they broke off from it, about 3/4 of the way through Frozen Throne.

Mounts are NO justification for faction. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous. Neither is skin color or dance. Whether or not a race 'fits in' in appearance and personality has nothing to do with any kind of political alliance.

The Night Elves have a long history with a prejudice against orcs, and EVERYBODY worked together to fight the demons. It even says in the WoW intro how the tenuous bonds created during the war with Archimonde have been broken.

In your BE argument, you mention (in capital letters) that the horde invaded Quel'thalas. No, that was the scourge: The ones the Blood Elves have a huge loathing against, just like...who else, oh yeah, the Forsaken, who have an alliance with the Horde. Also, the Blood Elves are formed by Kael'Thas, who is openly rebelling against the humans, justifying the anti-alliance stance, as you even mention.

You have got some portion of the speech point down. There isn't really a great reason for the BE to not know common.

Alliance =/= light. Just because they had paladins first does not mean that they have some special connection to the light and all paladins should have a connection to the alliance. If you have read the Blood Elf Paladin background, it is revealed that the source of their power is not, in fact, holy. Unless it qualifies as such, being drained from a Naaru.

Your mention of High Elves teaching magic to the alliance is one I haven't heard, although I do lack bits of information, so this is possible. Nonetheless, the powers of magic are no special secret, they are more of a law of the universe, and it could easily be assumed others discovered them.

Warlocks are a Horde class? I think that the sentence mentioning this had some small error I'm missing (not being sarcastic), because if you've played WoW, you'd know that 2/5 of the alliance can be warlocks. I've got a 52 Gnome lock myself. I think you meant player class. In which case, you raise an interesting point.

Lastly, Naga have no good reason at all to tie in to either of the factions. IN FACT, Naga are under the control of Vashj, who is working directly for Illidan. The one controlling who both factions hate. A lot. So don't expect to see Naga as a player race anytime soon.

[Jade_Tarem]

I just want this answered:

If the undead were all humans in a former life, why don't they speak common?

[Crazy Owl]

I just want this answered:

If the undead were all humans in a former life, why don't they speak common?

Because PVP where you can't talk to the other side is interesting.

I think what people need to realise that gameplay is much more important than the lore in an MMO. The sides were unbalanced because one had shamans and the other had paladins. So they change the lore and the game becomes better.

[Tekraen]

Don't forget that the Orcs also killed one of the most influential forest gods the Night Elves had since the Sundering and clear-cut the forests they were living in at the time in a violation of those respect for nature thingies the Nelves have.

Also, don't forget that the Blood Elves were forsaken by the Lordaeron Alliance remnants who tried to have them executed for treason after intentionally throwing them into battles they could not win. The Forsaken, to their credit, did take care of the pesky Garithos, who orchestrated most of the badness that happened to the Belves post-WC3. The Forsaken are also controlled by one of the Windrunners, who have been heroes of Azeroth since time imemorial. Throw in the lack of assistance from the Alliance (what was left of it, har) when the Scourge initially invaded, and Blizz has actually made convincing reasons as to why the races stick to the sides they do.

Are there grey areas? Yes. There always are. As for the language barrier, there's no clear canon reason for it to happen that way, as all members of Azeroth past and future know and speak Common in the novels. Meh.

[Prophaniti]

Personally the one thing that really bugs me as far as story goes is this... War between the Horde and Alliance? What war? You wouldnt know it from playing. Sure, there's the BGs, but these are entirely voluntary and have no lasting impact on gameplay OR story. They're more like soccer matches, yes they're brutal and they tend to get people excited and worked up, but a week later it makes no difference who won that AV match.

I realize that making permanent impacts to the setting has the potential to break the game, but I believe it can be done right. Now, in BC they made some good ground with the addition of world pvp objectives in every new zone, but that was heavily countered by creating a huge thriving city where everyone can go and no one can fight.

In the begining, when WoW first came out, they talked about expanding on the tension between the Horde and Alliance, expanding the feud and stepping up the war. Instead, the opposite has happened. It is entirely possible to play through the game without once being attacked by, or attacking the opposing faction.

They barely feel like enemies anymore, more like next-door neihbors who argue over the boundary between their yards. Nothing serious ever comes of it. Choosing Alliance or Horde is more about 'what mounts can I get' or 'how cool/hot is my dance' than about which side you really want to join in whats supposed to be a global conflict. (in fact, more than global now, since outland opened up)

I heard someone else sum it up, and I apologize, I dont remember who it was or what thread, but they basically said, WoW is a collection of unfinished ideas and things that seemed cool at the time. It lacks direction and purpose, the plot and gameplay stumbling forward in seemingly random directions.

Its still fun as hell, though. sorry for the rant.

[Tekraen]

Honestly, the warfare bit was much better before they put the BG's in. Southshore/Tarren Mill battles were epic, and there were actual assaults on capital cities. With the advent of the BG so all the aggression is contained in an instance, the game has gone the way you described.

Save for the PvP servers. I cut my teeth on Dethecus, and that was a war to get to 60 without being ganked repedeately. I still fondly remember owning that 49 warrior with my 41 rogue. :smallbiggrin:

[Tengu]

Well, the situation between Alliance and Horde is a cold war, rather than an open one - they overall dislike each other and small bands connected to those sides, but not belonging to them fight sometimes, there are some small border conflicts... but there is no official war. And sometimes it's the opposite, and individuals or groups help those from the opposite faction. I think that this situation is overall more interesting than an open conflict.

[Thoughtbot360]

...................................****! I thought I posted already. Don't tells me I gotta type that whole goddamn thing all over again. Man, I took lots of things into account, from Cenarius, to the fact that Jaina's humans and Thrall's Orcs fought the Night Elves in cohoots, to addressing lots of incorrect assumptions in Icewalker's response (The Forsaken are Undead! I'll agree with you that the Horde hates the Scrouge, everyone hates the Scourge...) etc. etc. And all of that was replying to Icewalker (the only poster at the time).

But before I repost, I'm going to have a good, long cry.

And is there a limit to how many characters you can type (cuz' I typed quite a few) or was the website down last night?

However, I will answer Jade_Tarem's question because its quick:


I just want this answered:

If the undead were all humans in a former life, why don't they speak common?

Because Blizzard is crazy like that. They have a language called "Gutterspeak". They apparently forgot common when they rose from the dead. Or maybe it was when the Forsaken regained their freedom. They were so happy they forgot their native language and had to make up a new one :annoyed:.

[Crazy Owl]

Because Blizzard is crazy like that. They have a language called "Gutterspeak". They apparently forgot common when they rose from the dead. Or maybe it was when the Forsaken regained their freedom. They were so happy they forgot their native language and had to make up a new one :annoyed:.

Or maybe because the game is more important than the damn lore. I doubt you would really care about the lore if the games hadn't been good in the first place and it takes a pretty crazy person to go for game because of its lore.

[Tekraen]

Or maybe because the game is more important than the damn lore. I doubt you would really care about the lore if the games hadn't been good in the first place and it takes a pretty crazy person to go for game because of its lore.

Perhaps not, but it doesn't take a crazy person to stay with a game because of the lore. See Halo.

[Crazy Owl]

Perhaps not, but it doesn't take a crazy person to stay with a game because of the lore. See Halo.

No I think the point your missing is the people staying with Halo for the Lore are somewhat crazy.

[TheEmerged]

RE: The language bit. Because gameplay trumps immersion in WoW. This is a stated policy and affects several issues.

[Semidi]

In your BE argument, you mention (in capital letters) that the horde invaded Quel'thalas.

If memory serves the Horde did attack Quel'Thalas in Warcraft 2.

[Artanis]

Night Elves joining Alliance:

You have to admit that they couldn't leave the Night Elves out entirely, so they had to be put in one faction or another. The Alliance made the more logical choice because while they didn't much care one way or another about the Alliance, the Horde had proven (in the Night Elves' eyes) to be a bunch of demon-worshipping berzerkers who drank the blood of beings that the entire NE culture was designed to fight against, wantonly cut down their forests, and killed their god. So, Alliance it is.


Forsaken joining Horde:

People wanted to play as Undead, so much so that again, Blizzard couldn't really leave them out. About the only choice left was the Horde. You'll note, however, that the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde don't get along particularly well, illustrating the fact that neither is particularly happy about the joining, and that it's just an alliance of convenience.


BE Joining Horde:

Blood Elves were called for by the playerbase so much that Blizzard couldn't really leave them out of the expansion. But...which side to choose?

The Alliance had damn well nearly gotten the last Blood Elves wiped out (and imprisoned what was left when they survived), so they couldn't really join up with the Alliance. The Forsaken, on the other hand, are fighting for their lives against the Scourge just like the BE, and Sylvanas Windrunner - the Queen of the Forsaken - had been a High Elf who died defending Quel'Thalas from the Scourge. So, Forsaken it was. The rest of the Horde didn't really matter, because the Blood Elves weren't getting all buddy-buddy with them, they were using them as cannon fodder to keep from getting wiped out until everybody could join Kael'Thas in Outland, at which point they'd tell the rest of the Horde to f*** off and leave them to fend for themselves.




I just want this answered:

If the undead were all humans in a former life, why don't they speak common?
Because all it led to was so much trash-talking that the game turned into an even more childish version of a crappy Counterstrike pub. So they decided that sacrificing that little bit of backstory was worth making the game not suck.

Incidentally, that's the same reason why the Blood Elves can't speak to Alliance.

[...Eh?]

The sides were unbalanced because one had shamans and the other had paladins. So they change the lore and the game becomes better.

Yeah, life was just dandy for the Shamans after BC, when Blizzard let the paladins tear out and eat their hearts for power. I still have a hissy fit when I think about how badly Blizzard nerfed the Shamans after they realized that they could just make Paladins and Shamans be available to the other faction, and then they wouldn't have to worry about keeping Shamans and Paladins balanced against eachother.

Really? I think Blood Elves and Draeini shouldn't exist. At all. Not even mentioned.

[CrazedGoblin]

WoW - Run by the public opinion so it becomes crap and run by 10 year olds

Warcraft Series - Very cool, and (reasonably Foxed Code)

[Querzis]

Personally the one thing that really bugs me as far as story goes is this... War between the Horde and Alliance? What war? You wouldnt know it from playing. Sure, there's the BGs, but these are entirely voluntary and have no lasting impact on gameplay OR story. They're more like soccer matches, yes they're brutal and they tend to get people excited and worked up, but a week later it makes no difference who won that AV match.

I totally know what you means. The Forsaken and the blood elves ally with the Horde? That make total sense. The Forsaken and the Blood elves were rejected by the Alliance and Thrall, the leader of the Horde, is ready to be at peace with everyone who isnt a demon. And remember that thats all they are, at peace. Blood elves and Forsakens arent regulated by Thrall at all and the rest of the Horde dont trust them that much. Orcs, Trolls and Taurens are the real Horde, the one diriged by Thrall. The Forsaken and the Blood elves just stick with them to have help against their enemies and have ally they can count on if they are attacked.

NE in the Alliance? Now that bug me a little but its still believable...but it shoudnt be all of them who joined the Alliance. Which is why Blizzard said that in the actual lore, only about a quarter of the NE are really in the Alliance. Most NE are in the Cenarion circle or in other Neutral faction with even some of them in the Horde. Now that make much more sense because without Malfurion, the NE are really divised. Some are with Jarod Shadowsong, their great general from the first wars against the demons, some with the Archdruid (who is really a xenophobic bastard), some with Tyrande, their great priestess and most are just waiting for Malfurion return.

Draenei in the Alliance make no sense mainly because uncorrupted draenei make no sense in the first place. I really think they add them for no better reasons that who else would join the Alliance? The Horde still got lots of Ogre in their ranks, lots of goblins who are aligned with the Horde (even though Bliz said they would stay neutral) for the two next new race...but the Alliance? Its pretty much just humans and dwarves in the lore now. The number of Gnomes still alive in the lore is ridiculous so they shoudnt have been a playable race, NE are far from just in the Alliance so they shoudnt be either but at least they dont destroy the lore, Gnomes and NE were there before...But then draenei, who are supposed to be pretty much extinct and all corrupted suddenly are Eredar with spaceships...

1. Eredar were supposed to be the ones who corrupted Sargeras, not the other way around so there shoudnt be any non-demon Eredar at all.

2. If Draenei, the non-corrupted Eredar, have spaceships, how come the demons Eredar dont? They could have invaded Azeroth long ago with spaceships!

3. Whats the name of the orcs homeworld? Draenor. The orcs always called it Draenor...but now we learn that the Draenei are NOT from Draenor and the orcs were already there for a long time before the Draenei came...so what the hell happened?

Orc 1: «Hey guys, dont you think we should name our planet eventually?»
Orc 2: «Nah, names are useless.»
Orc 3: «Hey Guys, a bunch of aliens just came down from a spaceships and decided to name our planet Draenor.»
Orc 1: «Great name, lets use it from now on»:smallannoyed:

4. Draeneis crashed near NE territory...you know those same NE that automatically attacked Humans and Orcs entering their forest without ever trying to talk? Not to mention that those in the Alliance are the especially xenophobic ones. Now they crash in a big ships on their lands and, when they come out, the NE see that they look exactly like Eredars, the lieutenants of the Burning Legion.

And they dont attack them, in fact they decide to ally with them:smallsigh:

I could go on but lets just say they dont make sense and destroy many of the established lore. They are just there because the Alliance needed another race.

But lets get back to what you said prophaniti. The Orcs, the Trolls, the Taurens, the Humans, the Dwarves, the Gnomes and the NE all want peace. The Forsaken and the Blood elves just want to be left alone to take revenge on the Scourge. The Draenei...shoudnt exist in the first place. So why the hell are they fighting? For PvP. No other reasons.

A lot of the lore was sacrified in WoW for the gameplay. It dont bother me that much, its a MMO after all but Blizzard should really just say that everything in WoW wont affect the actual lore, especially since they killed many importants characters in WoW just for loot.

And by the way Crazy owl, there are warcraft books which are really great and the lore of the previous game was awesome so for me Warcraft lore is definitly more important then just one game in the warcraft series. Call me crazy all you want, at least I'm not a freaking owl. :smallbiggrin:

[Cubey]

Really? I think Blood Elves and Draeini shouldn't exist. At all. Not even mentioned.

Except that these two races were established before World of Warcraft came out. The "human" campaign of Frozen Throne is all about Blood Elves, and Draenei were included in it too - and they were even mentioned in Warcraft II's manual before. I wonder how many self-appointed critics actually know that!

As for the language barrier, Blizzard knew what would happen if they gave the players an option to talk with the enemy faction. There's enough crap talk during battlegrounds even amongst the battling group, no need to make it any worse.

Now, the reason why Blood Elves AND Undead before them joined the Horde is simple: politics. Splitting from Arthas/being (basically) betrated by Kael'thas and hated by the Alliance, they had NO ONE else but the Horde to go to for protection, and they would never survive by their own. Tauren joined the Horde because of their honorable relationship with the Orcs, and any argument that they are too "noble" for the Horde is laughable and means the poster is an "Alliance = good, Horde = ebil" stereotype monger. Night Elves had a common interest with other Alliance races (humans mostly), and I find it very easy to believe that these two cultures started to slowly make bigger and bigger contacts with each other before the union was official.

Blizzard has a special "lore division" - every quest and addition to the lore have to pass through Metzen, who was responsible for the story and world of Warcraft since THE FIRST game! And while sometimes it seems that his judgement was rather unreasonable (such as Kael turning from a mostly sympathetic character to a bloody-handed sociopath who sacrifices his own men to summon demons, or the future addition of Death Knights, a whole class of Drizz't rebel clones), it is rare and most of the time the lore is stable and non self-contradictory.

I find it very annoying that people say Blizz is "breaking the lore" because they do some stuff the way that is not compatible with these people's vision.


EDIT: I'll refute the arguments about Draenei, in the post above this one.

First: Draenei do NOT have spaceships. Exodar is NOT a spaceship. Their constructs have an ability to travel from one planet to the other, but it isn't akin to space voyages - I imagine more like teleporting.
Eredar do not have such means of transport because Exodar (among others) was built with the help of Naaru. No sane Naaru would help the Eredar, and insane ones... there aren't any, as far as I know.

Eredar corrupting Sargeras turning out to be a fake, as well as seeing that some uncorrupted (either non-Eredar or non-Broken) Draenei exist - that could be explained that the lore we knew before was written from an IC point of view, and as such was limited and flawed - it turned out not to be quite correct. This IS a retcon, sure - but I don't mind, because Draenei ARE that awesome.

Now, Draenei-Night Elf relations. There is a whole quest chain about them discovering other races in their newbie area. Since you argue about this, I assume you never had a Draenei character, so here's an abridged version:
There is a wounded Night Elf priestess at Azure Watch. She is unconscious, but the player has a quest to help her by gathering healing herbs - after finishing it, she wakes up abruptly, calls the Draenei around her "eredar" in shock, and falls down again. The Draenei DO realise that she made a mistake, and it can be concluded that after you finish the quest chain (read: gathering more healing materials), they explain the difference to her.
As for a "real" first contact - that is, with conscious people, there is a human expedition on the southern shore. As humans are much less lore-savvy about the Eredar, it was easy for Draenei to approach them in a friendly way.

Finally, Draenor issue. Remember that the Draenei were living there for an awfully long time (it's relatively short only when compared to their great livespans), so it's very plausible that their name for the planet was popularised and has eventually replaced the old orcish one. How many people call Mount Everest Jongmalunga today?

[Blayze]

I wonder how many self-appointed critics actually know that!

Proof:

"Like an elemental force of havoc and destruction we thundered through the lands of the Draenei, devastating all that we beheld. Not one life was spared. No building was left standing. The only traces of their existence were the blood-soaked fields they had worked for nearly five thousand years and the rank, acrid smell of the huge victory fires that consumed the bodies of their young. The Draenei were a weak people - hardly worth the effort of our raiding sweep. In the end, however, even these simple victories serve to keep the inferior in their place..." - Gul'dan, Chieftain of the Stormreaver Clan

Page 53 of the Warcraft II - Tides of Darkness side of the Deluxe Edition booklet, in case anybody was wondering.

[Saint George]

I really wanted to try to stay out of this conversation as I have many problems with the Warcraft Lore and the downright moronic directions their team has tried to take it as of late, but alas I am in a bad mood and I feel like argueing.

Where to start?

Forsaken in the horde? Makes sense to me. Thrall is willing to put up with the Forsaken being... creepy... for sheer strategic purposes. The Horde is really a melting pot for everyone the Alliance refuses to ally with. Enemy of my Enemy and all that. The Forsaken alliance with Thrall was too good to pass up. Apart, they would be too weak to stand up against the full might of the alliance, but together they have enough power to deter an all out attack.

Draenei... oh how I hate you. They broke the damn warcraft lore to get these stupid pretty boys on the Alliance side. Don't argue with me on this one, they admitted that they made a mistake when writing them in. They contradicted their own lore because they were too busy playing grabass and eating doughnuts. Now, did they have to break their lore to do this? NO. NO. They did not! All they had to do was use the little ugly mutant Draenei instead, but NO. They needed some way to give the alliance a pretty race. Writing them in? Easy. The Dark portal opens up and all of the refugees flee to Azeroth, BAM. Done. No fuss, no muss. Also it would make alot of sense giving them the Shaman class as opposed to the fancy pretty boy Draenei. They have never even been camping let alone commune with the spirits. But great job Blizzard, break your own lore to give Alliance one more pretty poorly thought out race.

Side rant! What the hell is with the new race racials? Do you think anyone REALLY needs more of an incentive to play them? Everyone would have rolled new characters because they looked cool, but go ahead and give them racials that are better than anyone elses. No, even better give them racials that SCALE TO LEVEL. Is that really necessary?

Final rant for now unless someone tries to pull a new one out of me. The Outlands. The outlands are stupid. Maybe you should try FINISHING AZEROTH before opening up an entirely new world. There are zones that aren't being used, there are continents that have been added.... COME ON. I can sit down for an hour and come up with 10 better ideas than what they went with. Space ships? Space Totems? A boss that fanboys want to kill cause he looks cool? Way to go blizzard, we appreciate it. Maybe your plot meeting should take longer than an hour and not be between lunch and naptime.

Maybe they started the Outlands so they don't have to pay attention to lore anymore? They can pull whatever they want out of their collective asses and call it canon cause not much is known about it. Whoopee. Ok, ok, ok so.. in the part.. we are uh... uh... gonna add uh.. .demon orcs? Yea! Demon orcs... should they be from space too? No, we have been streching the space thing kinda far.


Ok, that is my rant so far. Feel free to contend on any of it and I will come back and argue more. Rawr.

[The Orange Zergling]

Supported by many points made in this thread, I am a strong believer that WoW will be the end of Warcraft. Oh sure, they can come up with expansions and prequels, but we'll never see Warcraft 4... not after what WoW did to the lore. And the most powerful being in the world is going to be kill-able by... 25? 40? people? Overall, I wish that WoW had been an RPG and not an MMO. But we can't change history, unfortunately. And my main complaints about WoW have nothing to do with the lore. But hey, it was a fun 2 years of play... 'till I realized what I had gotten myself into.

The sad part? I'm starting to long for it again. To do the starting quests, the ever-repetitive grinding and finding shiny new lewts, seeing the guilds I left behind again...

[Cubey]

WAAAAAH!

I am not a Blizzard fanboy, but I will defend them tooth and claw. Since the lore was, from the start to this day, written by basically the same people (Chris Metzen's team), they have more than enough rights to do what they want with it.
Don't like it? No one forces you to play WoW. A certain webcomic springs to mind, let me see if I can find it. Expect an edit.

[EvilElitest]

I just want this answered:

If the undead were all humans in a former life, why don't they speak common?

They all watched Snatch to many times, and so their laungage has changed. They all talk like the Gypies in the movie, so techencally they are speaking common, just no body can understand them
from,
EE

EDit: On note of alliances, lets break this down. Alliance first

Dwarves and Humans have been allies for ages, no change their
Gnomes have also been allies of the alliance for ages, with their current crisis it makes sense for them to become more active. Oh and about the amount of gnomes in existence, it is an entire race. So the 3 million odd gnomes running around, bear in mind this is the pouplation of an entire race
Night elves worked with the Alliance before, hates the Hoard, and has similarities, np their
Techenically, High Elves, Nypms, non corrupted Furblogs and Bog Beasts, as well as giants and Treents work for the alliance as well.
As for Dranai, well that is just weird, but i don't think they really destroyed the lore, i just think they didn't go into enough detail. Can somebody with more knowlage than Me go into that a bit more on where the lore is acually chagned other tahn the Erader corrupting the Big Titan dude (The dreadlords do it in the new version)

Hoard
Orcs and Taruan, makes sense
Orcs and Trolls, makes sense
Orcs and Forsakon, if you think about the fact taht the Orcs loose nothing, and gain so much, it works out
Orcs and Blook elves, same thing

[Lemur]

I just want this answered:

If the undead were all humans in a former life, why don't they speak common?

They could waaay back in beta. I believe it was taken away because of rampant trash-talking. Surprise surprise :smallamused:

[EvilElitest]

They could waaay back in beta. I believe it was taken away because of rampant trash-talking. Surprise surprise :smallamused:

I like my Snatch idea better
from,
EE

[Cubey]

Found!
http://commissionedcomic.com/index.php?strip=104
Don't forget the "read this comic's rant" button. Replace Star Wars with World of Warcraft, Lucas with Metzen/Blizz in general, and you have my opinion about this said in O's words.

[Winterwind]

Regarding the Draenai, you might be interested in this:

Hey y'all,

I wanted to drop you guys a line and explain whats up with some of the recent changes you've all been seeing in the lore and specifically address your concerns about the draenei and their revised backstory. Bear with me here, I tend to get a bit wordy as I build up steam.

Anyway, here we go:

Hit #1: Lore Train-Wreck
Right To be totally up-front with you guys, its my bad, straight up. The obvious lore contradiction with Sargeras and his encounter with the eredar was clearly documented in the Warcraft III manual. I wrote those bits about four years ago, and to be totally honest, I simply forgot. Genius, right? With my excitement to get the draenei up to speed and root them more firmly in the setting, I forgot to do my homework and go back over my earlier writing. I can assure you, no ones more crushed about this mistake than I am. Ive spent the last few days kicking my own ass over this one. Sucks to fail. It may not always be evident, but we take this story stuff really seriously at Blizzard. Its been one of my personal missions at this company to maintain a high level of integrity throughout the Warcraft game setting (all of them, actually) and I think weve done a pretty decent job of upholding the continuity over the years.

I think its important to note that world building is far bigger than just storytelling, and it requires (in my humble opinion) a certain amount of flexibility. Sometimes you need to expand certain ideas or retcon whole sections of continuity to broaden the scope and accessibility of your setting. There are a good number of these types of situations already (like totally revising our timeline, suggesting trolls were the progenitors of all elven subspecies, etc. theres a hundred other examples). To make an omelet, ya need to break a few eggs, and WoWs one big omelet.

The trouble is, this has become a pretty big setting. There are literally thousands of characters, hundreds of locations, and all sorts of creatures, items, and plot themes that all define this world. As you can imagine, its a lot to police. Sometimes things do fall through the cracks mistakes get made and were forced to scramble to come up with clever solutions to continuity errors. (Hakkar, anyone? ). You not only have me jamming ideas, but a ninja team of quest designers, an army of freelance RPG writers, and a commando squad of red-hot novelists who are all involved in fleshing out the lore and making it more than just wallpaper on a game.

Im explaining all this not to excuse this particular mistake, but to give you some understanding of how the mistake was made. Ive read a fair amount of posts over the past few days and I know theres a lot of confusion and frustration surrounding the whole eredar/draenei train wreck. Believe me I know exactly how you feel. At the end of the day, were all just a bunch of geeky fanboys and fangirls, and we all get pretty fired up when people start screwing with the worlds we love. If anything, all of the venting and creative suggestions Ive seen over the past few days have reinforced for me the fact that you guys really do care about this world and its troubled denizens.

While I cant promise that these types of mistakes will never happen again, I do want to state clearly that we take the responsibility of crafting and maintaining this lore very seriously. You all pay good money to adventure through this world month by month, and you deserve the best we can give.

Dont lose faith well do ya proud!

Hit #2: So Whats the Story, Blizzard?
Ok, so whats the real scoop behind the eredar/draenei story then? At this point, even though the NEW lore directly counters the Warcraft III manual, were still going to run with it. There are a lot of reasons for this, not the least of which is that I think its far stronger than what I crafted back in the day. The eredar were not necessarily all evil. Sargeras did come to them and tempt them with power. They did NOT make Sargeras crazy. This gives the eredar more dimensionality and roots the draenei to a key moment in Burning Legion history.

Weve also woven all of this new lore into an upcoming novel by Christie Golden (author of Lord of the Clans) that depicts the draeneis escape from Argus and the RISE OF THE HORDE on Draenor. The book DOMINATES, and youre going to really dig it. Durotan, Nerzhul, Guldan, Doomhammer, Hellscream, Kiljaeden, Velen this story is the one youve been waiting for. Im getting geeked up just thinking about it

However, this new lore does leave a large hole how did Sargeras go nuts? What drove him to fall and begin his Burning Crusade? I dont know yet. It will be his encounter with some evil race (who dares me to use Old Gods???), but it wont be the eredar.

Ill chew on this. Maybe well solve this by the end of the expansion. See this is that flexibility stuff I was talking about earlier

Hit #3: World of Spacecrafts
Another concern Ive been hearing about is the inclusion of certain sci-fi elements into the setting. I appreciate that this stuff is pretty far out, but thats the whole point: Outland and the greater universe out there in the void ARE far out. Change is always difficult I remember people getting really upset about dwarves with guns, steam-tech, Gnomeregan as a hi-tech city many people had a hard time rolling with those technologies in a fantasy setting. But I ask you all can you imagine WoW without those elements now?

Were definitely throwing some new concepts at you all, but Im very confident that when youre able to see these elements in context, over the course of the game play youll understand why weve been so excited to include them.

To be clear, were not talking about having the Millennium Falcon cruising around the Twisting Nether (Im certain there would be some legal issues there, to say the least). The draenei nether-ship youve been hearing about is far more than it seems. Its part of a larger dimension-traveling fortress called Tempest Keep that essentially teleports through alternate realities. It doesnt bank and roll or shoot proton torpedoes (not yet, anyway).

While we will be introducing a number of naaru technologies (like this ship, for instance), were not planning on going hog-wild. Conceptual balance is everything. For those of you who are fearful of seeing jet-packs and laser pistols filling up the AH, never fear. If you did see them, theyd likely be goblin engineered and get your character killed anyway.

Hit #4: Blood Elves Sure Get Around
I also saw some strangeness about the apparent contradiction of how the blood elves could have sabotaged the draenei nether-ship since theyre all holed up in QuelThalas. Remember, there are twisted blood elves in Outland who have been there since TFT campaign. Its those creepy elves who sabotaged the draeneis flight to Azeroth.

Id love to elaborate on this further, but Im afraid Id spoil your appetites for dessert.

In conclusion, I just want to reiterate that we do take these continuity errors very seriously.
Its very important to me that you all feel you can trust us as developers and know that were out to build a world thats worthy of your time and your passion.

Thanks for bearing with me here. See yall on the other side of the Portal!

Chris Metzen
5-12-06

[EvilElitest]

Regarding the Draenai, you might be interested in this:

Thanks, it all makes sense now
from,
EE

[Belteshazzar]

There are numerous reasons I did not play WoW despite having an old love of Blizzard and The Warcraft Series. One of these was the cartoony animation and atmosphere they used and the other was the simple split between Aliance and Horde. They should have simply made more factions. There were simply to many reasons to not have two simplified monolithic Superpowers and yet they boiled it all down to Horde or Aliance?

[Blayze]

There are only a finite number of players. Too many playable factions, and assuming an even spread of players between the factions, and there are too few players per faction to make much progress.

The more factions, the worse it becomes. The economy gets downsized. Potential groups become rarer and rarer, and the sizes of groups and raids need to be scaled down to fit. Imagine the complaints.

"WTF ILLIDAN WUS TEN-MANNED WTF BLIZZ I CALL SHENANIGANS!!1"

That's assuming an even spread of players, though. In reality, one or two factions would attract most of the playerbase, and the others would go largely ignored, especially by players wanting to progress through end-game content.

There are most likely other reasons, but I won't bother debating them.

[Crazy Owl]

Too many playable factions,


You mean like two? Kind of hard to imagine WoW with one faction. Also I'm pretty sure the lore lovers would really complain if they took out a whole faction. :smallbiggrin:

[FrostXian]

Supported by many points made in this thread, I am a strong believer that WoW will be the end of Warcraft. Oh sure, they can come up with expansions and prequels, but we'll never see Warcraft 4... not after what WoW did to the lore. And the most powerful being in the world is going to be kill-able by... 25? 40? people?

25 people who are assumed to take down the children of Deathwing, took out an old god, killed a high ranked follower of an old god, then killed Kel'Thuzad.
And then they fought Illidan, and killed him, with the help of Akama and Maiev.
Doesn't sound illogical to me.

[Winterwind]

I'm rather afraid they will not leave enough threats intact for there to be enough left for a WarCraft IV, at least not without completely mangling the lore once again.

[ufo]

While I didn't bother reading all the replies, and I do not agree with all your points, I must agree that Blizzard screwed up the story with WoW.

Noone that didn't play the original three games (+ expansions) would see it, but it's true. It cannot be argued.

[Blayze]

You mean like two? Kind of hard to imagine WoW with one faction. Also I'm pretty sure the lore lovers would really complain if they took out a whole faction. :smallbiggrin:

Er... That's not what I said. Perhaps I should have started that sentence "If there were too many playable factions,".

[sihnfahl]

25 people who are assumed to <snip>
Let's see. Some of the major personages...

Onyxia, Broodmother of the Black Dragonflight
Ragnaros the Firelord, Master of all Fire Elementals
Nefarian, Eldest Son of Deathwing
C'thun the Old God
The Lich Kel'thuzad
Lady Vashj, Matron of Serpentshrine Cavern
Prince Kael'Thas Sunstrider
Illidan the Betrayer
Archimonde The Defiler

Yeah, even Arthas would fall to that...

[Artanis]

Not to mention that the whole "JUST 25 guys" sentiment is kind of an oxymoron. I mean, there were entire armies in WC3 that weren't that large, and a guy armed with the weapons of literal gods ain't exactly your standard-issue Footman.

[Tekraen]

Let's see. Some of the major personages...

Onyxia, Broodmother of the Black Dragonflight
Ragnaros the Firelord, Master of all Fire Elementals
Nefarian, Eldest Son of Deathwing
C'thun the Old God
The Lich Kel'thuzad
Lady Vashj, Matron of Serpentshrine Cavern
Prince Kael'Thas Sunstrider
Illidan the Betrayer
Archimonde The Defiler

Yeah, even Arthas would fall to that...

Many of those were even 40-man runs.

[Jibar]

That change from 40 man to 25 man run has me confused. Apparantly some black dragon needs more people to kill than an Old God?
That is really my biggest problem with Lore and WoW really.


(such as Kael turning from a mostly sympathetic character to a bloody-handed sociopath who sacrifices his own men to summon demons, or the future addition of Death Knights, a whole class of Drizz't rebel clones),

This bit I wanted to pick up on, as they interested me.
Kael turning makes sense to me. Look at how he went through Frozen Throne. By the end of it, you can already see that his rage and hate is beginning to pour out with his little encounter with Arthas when he arrives at Northrend.
He was perfectly willing to do whatever he wanted to save his people, and as time wore on, he decided he needed to go to more extreme levels. So, while at first the Blood Elves could do fine with draining the mana from a couple creatures and demons, Kael might have decided he needed to go one step up. Illidan could no longer provide, somebody more powerful could. Somebody like the Burning Legion, for example... and what is a few soldeirs, compared to your entire race?

Death Knights though... I'm waiting to see about that actually. I mean, if Gul'Dan could make his own, why couldn't someone else? Why is only Arthas allowed now?

Though, on another note, what the hell has got people so angry about the Draenei? You get the odd line about Eredar corrupting Sargares, and that's it.
There have been far worse retcons.

[Artanis]

That change from 40 man to 25 man run has me confused. Apparantly some black dragon needs more people to kill than an Old God?
That is really my biggest problem with Lore and WoW really.
Well, most of that old content can be 25-manned now anyways just because of how much more powerful a level 70 in TBC gear is than a level 60 in pre-2.0 gear once was. Hell, I think Onyxia's even been 4-manned :smallwink: