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View Full Version : Taking the -zilla out of Druidzilla



Raven T.
2007-10-02, 11:44 PM
For the first time in several years, I've actually got access to books and a group to play with, so I have some questions for the local numbercrunchers and powergamers:

The campaign is going to be a war-style setting. The party consists of (so far) a Forest Gnome Druid, a Half-Elf Bard, a (likely) Halfling Rogue, and myself as a Human Druid. My stat rolls were exceptional. To keep myself from being overpowered (the Bard hasn't played since 2nd Edition and had a bad experience with her gnome and a dragon, the other Druid is less well-read than I am, and the Rogue...well, I believe she's a good player, but it's a Rogue,) I am seeking ways to self-nerf while retaining a fair amount of power. I've already decided to take the UA no Wildshape variant for flavor reasons. I'm also stating now that I will NOT use Vow of Poverty, as I'm going to be crafting wands/wondrous items for the crew.

Books available to me:
PHB
DMG
MM 1-3
BoVD
BoED
CAdv
CArc
CD
CW
RoW
RoS
Spell Compendium
Savage Species

My thanks in advance for your assistance.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-02, 11:52 PM
I've already decided to take the UA no Wildshape variant for flavor reasons.

I'll have to look up what you get for that, but you just took the zilla out of Druid by doing that. You shouldn't need to do much else.

Dr. Weasel
2007-10-02, 11:54 PM
If you ditch Wild Shape, you've probably done enough. That's the main powersource of the Druid class (beside full spellcasting, but I'm assuming you're not about to go out of your way to get rid of that... unless you want to take some Prestige Ranger for some reason).

Out of curiosity, are you using the Aspect of Nature or the Ranger/Monk substitution? I'm rather fond of the latter.

Raven T.
2007-10-02, 11:56 PM
By giving up Wildshape and Armor proficiencies, I get:
Monk AC table (including Wis to AC...guess where the two 18s I rolled went:smallamused: )
Monk Fast Movement
Ranger Favored Enemy
Track/Swift Tracker

As another note, I'm also snagging a Dire Eagle for my companion at 4th level (starting at lvl 3.5 so we don't all die right away) if that makes any difference.

horseboy
2007-10-02, 11:59 PM
"Nature points out again and again the folly that is man." (Think there was another word in there)
What's your favored enemy?

Raven T.
2007-10-03, 12:08 AM
The line goes "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man."

Well, he's calling the campaign the Orc Wars. I'll give you three guesses.:smalltongue:

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-03, 12:10 AM
Undead? Dragons? Goblins!? :smallbiggrin:

Waspinator
2007-10-03, 12:32 AM
No, obviously his favored enemy is Godzilla.

Leon
2007-10-03, 12:40 AM
By giving up Wildshape and Armor proficiencies, I get:
Monk AC table (including Wis to AC...guess where the two 18s I rolled went:smallamused: )
Monk Fast Movement
Ranger Favored Enemy
Track/Swift Tracker

As another note, I'm also snagging a Dire Eagle for my companion at 4th level (starting at lvl 3.5 so we don't all die right away) if that makes any difference.

Its a Good Variant
but how are you getting a Dire Eagle at 4th lvl, they are a 7th lvl choice

leperkhaun
2007-10-03, 01:21 AM
you should keep wildshape, just dont take natural spell. Also select wildshapes that are helpfull, but dont over shine say the party tank.

Not taking nature spell means having to manage your wildshapes and your casting much more.

limit the use of wildling clasps also helps reduce the power but keeps it competitive.

Honestly there is NO reason for a player to get rid of wildshape as a druid. Just simply dont use the cheese. Just because you CAN wild shape into a dire polar bear, cast greater magic fang on all your attacks, cast bite of the wearbear, and have all your items with wildling clasps, doesnt mean you HAVE too.

Be a healer or a summoner if you want, dont optimize your wildshape, but keep it around so that when needed, you can tie up an enemy in a grapple to buy the fighter or the wizard a couple rounds.

Hmmm bah, nevermind i missed the part about not going wildshape for RP reasons.

I would recomend focusing on healing and with insta summons you can help control the field for a couple rounds.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-03, 01:57 AM
A nice way to make the druid manageable (though he'll still be one of the most powerful classes ever unless you actually take away his full spellcasting) is to use the PHB II wildshape variant. It removes your animal companion, it removes natural spell, and it puts real limits on how powerful your wildshape can be (no more fleshrakers!)

Basically, it's WotC's druid fix.


dont optimize your wildshape

You don't *need* to optimize your wildshape for it to be ridiculous. It's as simple as just saying "I have Natural Spell, and I turn into a Fleshraker. Now I'm a level 4 character who can charge with a boosted speed, full attack, cast spells, trip, rend, grapple, and pin *all in the same round.*" Basically, it's ridiculous from the get-go, for the same reasons Polymorph is.

Kioran
2007-10-03, 02:55 AM
You don't *need* to optimize your wildshape for it to be ridiculous. It's as simple as just saying "I have Natural Spell, and I turn into a Fleshraker. Now I'm a level 4 character who can charge with a boosted speed, full attack, cast spells, trip, rend, grapple, and pin *all in the same round.*" Basically, it's ridiculous from the get-go, for the same reasons Polymorph is.

Take it as in-game nerf: simply refrain from using the most powerful option available. I know it sounds somewhat novel, but just morphing into a brown bear or whatever is still not weak. Stil, I concede a rule is bad if it takes player restraint to avoid breaking (like full casting). If you donīt trust yourself to have that restraint in a pinch, dropping wildshape might be a good idea.

Jothki
2007-10-03, 03:01 AM
A nice way to make the druid manageable (though he'll still be one of the most powerful classes ever unless you actually take away his full spellcasting) is to use the PHB II wildshape variant. It removes your animal companion, it removes natural spell, and it puts real limits on how powerful your wildshape can be (no more fleshrakers!)

Basically, it's WotC's druid fix.



You don't *need* to optimize your wildshape for it to be ridiculous. It's as simple as just saying "I have Natural Spell, and I turn into a Fleshraker. Now I'm a level 4 character who can charge with a boosted speed, full attack, cast spells, trip, rend, grapple, and pin *all in the same round.*" Basically, it's ridiculous from the get-go, for the same reasons Polymorph is.

Since Druids have a fixed spell list and can wildshape into any animal, it isn't really a matter of optimization anyway. You can choose to use your abilities less effeciently, but at any point you can wake up in the morning and decide to be broken that day.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-10-03, 07:48 AM
No, obviously his favored enemy is Godzilla.

What type is Godzilla? Is he an animal like a normal Dinosaur, a magical beast because he has a breath weapon or an outsider because he's an Abomination (being created by an Atom Bomb is sort of like being the son of a god).

Raven T.
2007-10-03, 08:25 AM
Its a Good Variant
but how are you getting a Dire Eagle at 4th lvl, they are a 7th lvl choice

Races of Stone says it is a 4th level choice.

OverdrivePrime
2007-10-03, 08:26 AM
Holy crap. That Shapeshift fix for druids is absolutely beautiful. That's getting houseruled in for all my campaigns. I really need to read the PHB II more closely.


Raven T., I applaud your efforts to tone down your zillaness to enhance the experience of your comrades, while still playing an awesome character. Good show old chap!

Leon
2007-10-03, 08:33 AM
Races of Stone says it is a 4th level choice.

Given that by way of the newer book its a 7th Level along with the Dire Hawk it makes more sense for it to be at a higher rating

Raven T.
2007-10-03, 08:47 AM
Well, I don't have this newer book and neither does the DM.:smallamused:

Waspinator
2007-10-03, 08:54 AM
What type is Godzilla? Is he an animal like a normal Dinosaur, a magical beast because he has a breath weapon or an outsider because he's an Abomination (being created by an Atom Bomb is sort of like being the son of a god).
Dire Iguana, so an animal. :smallamused:

KIDS
2007-10-03, 09:38 AM
I would recommend you look at the PHB2 shapeshifting variant. It removes animal companion and is a slight nerf in shapeshifting sense, removing your ability to dump all stats, but is still very flavorful, druid-like and etc. just not as overwhelming. I have played it several times and always found it a perfect fix for a druid who doesn't own the other (averagely optimized) characters.

Raven T.
2007-10-03, 10:12 AM
Well, with my excellent rolls, I figure any need for melee combat can be met by Bite of the Werebeast (Dire Bear? We don't need no stinkin' Bear...I AM ONE!) The other guy playing the Druid can/will take care of front line fighting for the most part, supplemented by Summons and the Rogue.

I blame you people for my desire to nerf the class; I wouldn't know HOW to play a superpowered Druid in the first place without you.:smalltongue:

OverdrivePrime
2007-10-03, 10:22 AM
I blame you people for my desire to nerf the class; I wouldn't know HOW to play a superpowered Druid in the first place without you.:smalltongue:

Hey man, don't hate the players, hate the game. :smallcool:

daggaz
2007-10-03, 10:27 AM
Im just going to agree with what has most likely been posted above. You dont need to ditch wildshape, just ban natural spell and limit yourself when it comes to wildshape forms... ie no dinosaurs, especially fleshrakers. (also, no animals your character isnt familiar with, a small part of RAW that most munchkins drop first).

Ive done this in the game I am DM-ing, and despite the druid's initial protests, he has discovered his character is still rather powerful, tho hardly overshadowing, and most of all, still fun.

Draz74
2007-10-03, 10:32 AM
I applaud your efforts ...

The PHB II fix is indeed beautiful, but I don't see why people are pressuring you to use it if you've already picked the UA variant to use. It works well too.

The only "zilla" you should have left if you're a UA-variant druid is the animal companion. At low levels, it will still be a better fighter than the fighter. Since you're starting at level 3, maybe it won't be a problem, but before you pick out a companion (especially if it's something that's been ruled since to be a "Level 7 option"), compare its stats with the stats of the party tank.

... oh, wait. Your party doesn't really have a tank. The two animal companions will be the tank, and there's no one for them to overshadow and make feel bad. Hmmm. You might be OK picking out a killer animal, then.

Raven T.
2007-10-03, 10:45 AM
daggaz, I picked the variant as much because I'm purposely limiting myself to not be overpowering and I like the flavor. I've made sure the Rogue takes UMD so she can spot heal with a wand of CLW and the Bard can help me buff with even more wands. Fast movement and no encumbrance (I took a single rank of Tumble simply because it can't be used untrained) means I can bounce around the battlefield, summoning something here, healing there, refreshing a buff that ran out somewhere else, then Blasting just for the fun of it if there's still time.

But, really, it comes down to the flavor for me.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-03, 05:29 PM
The only "zilla" you should have left if you're a UA-variant druid is the animal companion.

Are you kidding me? MOST of CoDzilla is full spellcasting.

Dervag
2007-10-03, 05:50 PM
Dire Iguana, so an animal. :smallamused:But iguanas don't breathe lasers... I'd go for magical beast.


Are you kidding me? MOST of CoDzilla is full spellcasting.But unless you seriously modify the entire class, you still have full casting.

The catch is that druids and clerics don't have to dominate a party. They don't have to be better fighters than the fighter. It's only when you use nigh-obsessive buffing that they get that dangerous and powerful.

Just play your druid without doing the things that Dzilla does, and that will probably be enough. Use buffs sparingly. Make reasonable in-character choices that do not cause your character to become more powerful than his companions, rather than reasonable in-character choices that do cause your character to become more powerful than his companions. And so on.

As others have noted, even Wildshape is manageable without Natural Spell.

Draz74
2007-10-03, 05:59 PM
Are you kidding me? MOST of CoDzilla is full spellcasting.

Touche ... sort of. That is indeed the most powerful thing about the Cleric and Druid.

But the terms involving the suffix "-zilla" originate specifically from these classes' ability to "be a better fighter than the fighter."

The Glyphstone
2007-10-03, 06:20 PM
Godzilla is clearly a Titanic Dire Iguana with the Dicefreaks Epic Monster of Legend template (gives a breath weapon)...

Leon
2007-10-03, 07:20 PM
Well, I don't have this newer book and neither does the DM.:smallamused:

Fair Enough

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-04, 07:44 AM
Touche ... sort of. That is indeed the most powerful thing about the Cleric and Druid.

But the terms involving the suffix "-zilla" originate specifically from these classes' ability to "be a better fighter than the fighter."

Now see, this REALLY annoys me, because I have a thing about people spreading misinformation. This is completely false. You're actually making things up off the top of your head with nothing behind it. Why do you people assert that you know the origin of something when you actually have no clue? "Well, the rules were intended to be this way I want them to be. Not that I have any actual knowledge of what the designers intended..."

It gets old, people. Please don't make claims if you don't actually know what you're talking about.

Look, this is the quote (from a friend of mine who originally coined the term, actually) that gave the suffix -zilla to the Cleric and Druid, and turned it into a common reference as surely as TLN's guide made people call wizards Batman. The quote actually originated from a discussion of the idea of noncore broken vs core balanced. Nothing about fighting better than the fighter there.


It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill. So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions.

There is no "melee monster term." It isn't any specific build or capability. CoDzilla is created by writing "Cleric" or "Druid" on your character sheet and going to town because the classes are actually self-optimized, and no matter *what* you do to your build they're still just about the most powerful bloody things in the game, clocking in at either Best in the Party or Second Best in the Party in every role, whether it's melee, buffing, blasting, save or die-ing, battlefield controlling, healing, or even utility or skill monkeying.



The catch is that druids and clerics don't have to dominate a party. They don't have to be better fighters than the fighter. It's only when you use nigh-obsessive buffing that they get that dangerous and powerful. I've never seen a druid use obsessive buffing. I've always seen them be ridiculously amazing from my *optimizer's* point of view. So I really don't know where you're getting this. Heck, if you're buffing obsessively, that wastes rounds and spells per day. If you're buffing obsessively (and don't have some way of making those buffs persistent) then you're actually playing your druid *stupidly,* instead of in an overpowered fashion. You don't need to buff a lot to fight better than the Fighter. Heck, for a couple levels, your ANIMAL COMPANION is better than the Fighter in combat. And of course, Wildshape lasts all day.

Draz74
2007-10-04, 10:35 AM
Now see, this REALLY annoys me, because I have a thing about people spreading misinformation. This is completely false. You're actually making things up off the top of your head with nothing behind it. Why do you people assert that you know the origin of something when you actually have no clue? "Well, the rules were intended to be this way I want them to be. Not that I have any actual knowledge of what the designers intended..."

A number of problems here:
1) You're flaming me.
2) You're being hypocritical, because you don't know that my words have "nothing behind [them]," any more than people know what designers' intents were when they wrote the rules. (In fact, what I said makes a good deal of sense, relative to the way I saw the term CoDzilla appear on Forums when it was a new thing.)
3) It's awfully tactless to put words in other people's mouths.
4) It's awfully tactless to characterize a member of a forum a certain way based on the behavior of other members of the forum.
5) It's awfully tactless to treat yourself as aloof, a "superior breed" from the rest of the users of a forum that you, too, actually happen to use (such as by calling your fellow forum users "you people").


It gets old, people. Please don't make claims if you don't actually know what you're talking about.

OK, let me get this straight. What's your definition of "know what you're talking about"? Because it seems like you're saying that anyone who hasn't been on D&D forums for as long as you, or as actively, clearly doesn't know what they're talking about, no matter how intelligent or offline-experienced they are or what kind of unique perspective on events they have.


Look, this is the quote (from a friend of mine who originally coined the term, actually) that gave the suffix -zilla to the Cleric and Druid, and turned it into a common reference as surely as TLN's guide made people call wizards Batman. The quote actually originated from a discussion of the idea of noncore broken vs core balanced. Nothing about fighting better than the fighter there.
There is no "melee monster term." It isn't any specific build or capability. CoDzilla is created by writing "Cleric" or "Druid" on your character sheet and going to town because the classes are actually self-optimized, and no matter *what* you do to your build they're still just about the most powerful bloody things in the game, clocking in at either Best in the Party or Second Best in the Party in every role, whether it's melee, buffing, blasting, save or die-ing, battlefield controlling, healing, or even utility or skill monkeying.

OK, you actually have a point. (A nitpicky point, but still you have proven my statement wrong in one area.) The "-zilla" term did not "originally" refer to divine casters' overshadowing the party tank with their melee prowess.

If I left out the word "originally," however, I would be correct. The current usage of the CoDzilla term refers to those who use Divine Power/Righteous Might or Wildshape/Animal Companion to be fearsome melee tanks, in spite of the fact that they are still full casters. I know that's the way the term is used on this Forum, and I visit the Wizards forums enough to be pretty sure the term gets used that way there a lot too.

Sorry if you feel some crusading drive to preserve the way the term was originally used, because it was your friend who coined it. Sorry if you feel that all D&D Forums need to have the same slang, jargon, and style. Neither of those things is going to happen, because language meanings change and develop! Especially on the Internet, and especially if they were slang all along!


I've never seen a druid use obsessive buffing. I've always seen them be ridiculously amazing from my *optimizer's* point of view. So I really don't know where you're getting this. Heck, if you're buffing obsessively, that wastes rounds and spells per day. If you're buffing obsessively (and don't have some way of making those buffs persistent) then you're actually playing your druid *stupidly,* instead of in an overpowered fashion. You don't need to buff a lot to fight better than the Fighter. Heck, for a couple levels, your ANIMAL COMPANION is better than the Fighter in combat. And of course, Wildshape lasts all day.

I didn't write the passage you are responding to here, but for the author's sake I'd like to point out that it's quite reasonable for him to classify Wildshape as a very powerful form of self-"buffing." If your personal definition of buffing differs, that's fine, but you don't have to point that out in a way that says "You're wrong."

Raven T.
2007-10-04, 03:57 PM
*hoses down OneWinged and Draz*

Easy, gentlemen! My question was answered; let's not turn it into yet another quasi-flaming topic about how my class can beat up your class because your class sucks and mine is perfect.

As far as I'm concerned, let this thing die.

Draz74
2007-10-04, 04:01 PM
*hoses down OneWinged and Draz*

Easy, gentlemen! My question was answered; let's not turn it into yet another quasi-flaming topic about how my class can beat up your class because your class sucks and mine is perfect.

As far as I'm concerned, let this thing die.

Right. Good call, I probably shouldn't have answered OWA's post at all. Sorry for helping derail your thread.

TO_Incognito
2007-10-04, 04:24 PM
Easy, gentlemen! My question was answered; let's not turn it into yet another quasi-flaming topic about how my class can beat up your class because your class sucks and mine is perfect.

Dude, Bards can beat up Druids because Druids suck and Bards are perfect.


Mheheh.

OverdrivePrime
2007-10-04, 04:26 PM
It's true! Druids have a terrible will save, when they're sleeping.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-04, 04:30 PM
It's true! Druids have a terrible will save, when they're sleeping.

False: you retain your saves while asleep.

OverdrivePrime
2007-10-04, 04:35 PM
I stand corrected - Druids have terrible Will Saves... In your dreams! :smallsmile:

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-04, 05:26 PM
Dude, Bards can beat up Druids because Druids suck and Bards are perfect.


Mheheh.

Eh, a bard probably could beat up a druid, by means of Diplomancy making the Bard get the Druid as a friend. Not that a single victory proves anything =P

Remember kids, Diplomacy is *so broken* that it's ranked up on the CharOp Campaign Smashers list right next to Pun Pun 'imself. :smallwink:

Golthur
2007-10-04, 09:01 PM
False: you retain your saves while asleep.

See, this is one of those rules that just rubs me the wrong way. Fortitude, sure. Will, maybe. Reflex, not a bloody chance.