Sorcerers vs Fixed List Casters [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Cosi

2019-04-23, 06:17 PM

Dread Necromancer/Beguiler > Sorcerer > Warmage.

The Dread Necromancer and Beguiler are basically Sorcerers that happen to have specialized in schools that are quite good. "Sorcerer with lots of Necromancy spells" and "Sorcerer with lots of Enchantment/Illusion spells" are totally defensible builds, and they are flatly better. At 1st level the Beguiler is the best casting class in the game. More spells known than the Sorcerer, more spells per day than the Wizard, all the good offensive spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, Trapfinding, and a great skill list. It falls off eventually -- by 10th level I think an optimized Sorcerer is competitive, and at high levels the Sorcerer is better -- but at the levels that see the most play, the fixed-list casters are dramatically better.

The Sorcerer has access to cheese like planar binding and polymorph, but both classes have access to top-tier minionmancy. The Beguiler gets the charm and dominate lines natively, is one of the best choices for a single-class Diplomancer, and either gets PrC goodies or simulacrum and ice assassin/mindrape. The Dread Necromancer is the best minion-master necromancer and has planar binding. At low or mid op, the fixed list casters are simply better, and at high or TO they have the tools to break the game.

The Warmage's list is a large number of bad spells. It's probably better than a new player playing a Sorcerer because it has the same spells they're likely to pick, but more of them. But I'm not going to pretend it's remotely close. Even PrCs probably aren't enough to close the gap, because of how little it has to begin with and how comparatively weak its synergies are.

Plus there are a lot of really good sorcerer-only spells, so it might win anyway.

There's like one and a half "really good" Sorcerer-only spells (the half is arcane spellsurge, because it's a lot less good when you can't get two spells per round with Invisible Spell + Spontaneous Metamagic).

And the sorcerer's freedom to use a much wider array of scrolls and wands, that is not to be underestimated either.

Well, sure, but the Beguiler has Use Magic Device as a class skill. And has skill points to spare, between getting 6 base and casting off INT. And he gets Diplomacy. And all the Rogue skills. By the time you can afford to start throwing around a bunch of wands and scrolls, the Beguiler is unlikely to fail his UMD checks, and he's simply way better at it than you, because he can do obscure and cheesy things like buy Trapmaster wands.

With infinite gold and access to dragon magazine, the sorcerer can become stronger even than a wizard, so... depends how much money you have to sink into it?

Assuming you're thinking of Knowstones, so can the Beguiler, and because he's activating them with UMD they don't cost spell slots. Yes, really. The Knowstone phrases expending the slot as part of the activation, and the PHB entry for UMD makes it clear that you can emulate expending a class feature. If you can make the skill check, by RAW you can active a Knowstone as often as you want. Even if you don't allow that, the fixed-list casters have a large enough lead in spells known to absorb the cost of the UMD items they need to never fail to use a Knowstone and still come out ahead.

Assuming that no one jumps out of a bush, screaming his or her lungs out about Rainbow Servant and such?

But yes: Ignoring PrC's (Rainbow Servant, I'm looking at you, at least with text-trumps-table in use), the Sorc has a higher ceiling than most fixed-list casters due to the ability to cherry pick off of a much larger list. Lower floor, too, for the same reason. Sorc is tier-2, most fixed-list casters are tier-3.

Why would we ignore PrCs? That's stupid. The fact that fixed-list casters have strong synergies with Rainbow Servant (and Prestige Domains, and Apprentice (Spellcaster)) is part of their power. Ignoring that is like ignoring the fact that a Wizard can scribe spells from scrolls into their spellbook, or ignoring the fact that the Sorcerer has alter self and polymorph on their spell list, and then using that to claim the classes aren't very powerful. Of course they don't look powerful if you ignore large parts of their power, you're ignoring large parts of their power.

Certainly, I could. However, innate casting on creatures is Sorc and it feels really off to change that into something else. It's the same for every creature with innate casting after all.

It's also worth noting that there are real advantages to creatures having a shorter spell list if you're running them as a DM. The fact that you have four of five live options for Sorcerer-based innate casting and ten or twenty for Beguiler-based innate casting makes it much easier to run an encounter with a Drider or a Couatl, let alone more than one. Fixed-list casters have the advantage of not having to chose a list of spells known, but existing monsters already have spells known selected, so that's a wash.

Thurbane

2019-04-23, 07:06 PM

Sorcerer gets far more ACF and sub-level support.

The have access to nearly all of the game-breaking spells. There are also some Sorcerer only spells, and spells that work better for Sorcerers than other casters.

Unlike most fixed list casters (except Warmage), Sorcerers benefit greatly from PrCing out. Beguilers and Dread Necros are generally better off staying in their class.

Fixed list casters are often better at their particular schtick, but Sorcerers will usually win in the raw power stakes. They can also win in versatility, depending on their spell selection, PrCs and ACFs.

Jack_Simth

2019-04-23, 09:22 PM

Why would we ignore PrCs? That's stupid. The fact that fixed-list casters have strong synergies with Rainbow Servant (and Prestige Domains, and Apprentice (Spellcaster)) is part of their power. Ignoring that is like ignoring the fact that a Wizard can scribe spells from scrolls into their spellbook, or ignoring the fact that the Sorcerer has alter self and polymorph on their spell list, and then using that to claim the classes aren't very powerful. Of course they don't look powerful if you ignore large parts of their power, you're ignoring large parts of their power.
Well, first off, I might suggest you re-read the forum rules.

As to the question itself:
1) In part, because PrC's are explicitly a "DM may opt in" rather than a "DM may opt out" feature of the game. Read the 3.5 DMG PrC header section - they're intended as tools for world-building, and players aren't actually supposed to be given free reign on them.
2) It heads towards the combinatorial explosion very, very quickly. Evaluating which base class is better based on PrC availability becomes functionally impossible.
3) A Wizard is a Wizard at level 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, and everything in between. A Beguiler is a Beguiler at level 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, and everything in between. PrC's only start having their impact at mid levels and up. The "Ignoring that is like ignoring the fact that a Wizard can scribe spells from scrolls into their spellbook" bit falls apart, as a Wizard will be scribing scrolls into a spellbook starting at 1st, while PrC's are mid to late game only.
4) A lot of PrC's have "fuzzy bits" that will have folks arguing about what the "proper" interpretation is. Technically, yes, per the text-trumps-table rule found in the Errata files, the Rainbow Servant is a full casting PrC. At the same time, it's clear that the intent is for it to be a 6/10 casting PrC (and no, I won't get into the details of that). As a full casting PrC, it's nice, and soars for the fixed-list casters... at 16th, when you get the capstone. Going by the obvious intent, it's rather lackluster. Most attempts to evaluate PrC impacts on base classes will very quickly devolve into shouting matches around these fuzzy bits.

Cosi

2019-04-23, 09:40 PM

The have access to nearly all of the game-breaking spells.

So what? Once you break the game, the game is broken. It doesn't matter if you have all the game breaking spells, or only one. If you can break the game, either your ability to do so gets banned/fixed/nerfed (which, following Jack's logic on PrCs, indicates we should ignore these spells entirely) or the game breaks. And once the game is broken it's trivial to get access to every spell in the game. Infinite power is, by definition, infinite. It's not more infinite if you have two ways of getting it instead of one.

Unlike most fixed list casters (except Warmage), Sorcerers benefit greatly from PrCing out. Beguilers and Dread Necros are generally better off staying in their class.

If this were true, people would not be protesting so loudly against evaluating PrCs. PrCs are an overwhelming win for fixed-list casters.

It heads towards the combinatorial explosion very, very quickly. Evaluating which base class is better based on PrC availability becomes functionally impossible.

The number of possible Sorcerer spell lists is larger than the number of PrC combinations. And yet we have no trouble evaluating Sorcerer spell selection. Why? Because we can look at particular examples, and observe the power levels of those examples. Just as we don't have to consider "cloudkill + teleport + lesser planar binding" and "cloudkill + fabricate + lesser planar binding" and "cloudkill + dismissal + lesser planar binding" and so on for every combination of three 5th level spells to prove that the Sorcerer picking lesser planar binding is a good choice at at 13th level, we don't have to consider every possible PrC to observe that Beguilers benefit from them. One is quite sufficient: the Rainbow Servant.

A Wizard is a Wizard at level 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, and everything in between. A Beguiler is a Beguiler at level 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, and everything in between. PrC's only start having their impact at mid levels and up. The "Ignoring that is like ignoring the fact that a Wizard can scribe spells from scrolls into their spellbook" bit falls apart, as a Wizard will be scribing scrolls into a spellbook starting at 1st, while PrC's are mid to late game only.

Yes, at the levels where the Beguiler is overwhelmingly superior to the Sorcerer, it can't take a PrC (of course, you not only can but must take Apprentice at 1st level, but that's neither here nor there). This is a very compelling argument that would change the opinion of reasonable people.

As a full casting PrC, it's nice, and soars for the fixed-list casters... at 16th, when you get the capstone.

Not quite. Prestige Domains add their full list, and the Beguiler can get substitute domain from an (Eternal) Wand or Apprentice. So you get the power spike at 7th level. I suspect a large part of the evaluation of the fixed-list casters come down to most people simply not considering optimization strategies for them.

Thurbane

2019-04-23, 10:14 PM

So what? Once you break the game, the game is broken. It doesn't matter if you have all the game breaking spells, or only one. If you can break the game, either your ability to do so gets banned/fixed/nerfed (which, following Jack's logic on PrCs, indicates we should ignore these spells entirely) or the game breaks. And once the game is broken it's trivial to get access to every spell in the game. Infinite power is, by definition, infinite. It's not more infinite if you have two ways of getting it instead of one.

Then amend my terminology to "most powerful spells in the game" if that offends your sensibilities less. :smallamused:

If this were true, people would not be protesting so loudly against evaluating PrCs. PrCs are an overwhelming win for fixed-list casters.

Have you had a look at any Dread Necro or Beguiler handbooks? Because most of them state that those two classes often do better being single-classed right through the game.

I'm not saying there aren't PrC options to help them improve. I'm just saying for Sorcerer that PrCing is pretty much the norm, and the jump on point to PrC for a Sorcerer is quite likely to be earlier than for most fixed list casters.

You seem to have taken my comments to mean that fixed list casters suck. They don't. I actually really enjoy them myself. I am saying that in an optimization challenge, Sorcerer is very likely to win. A fixed list caster is going to have to jump through significant hoops to get to the same power levels as a Sorcerer that picks powerhouse spells...which was kind of the point of the OP.

Troacctid

2019-04-23, 10:42 PM

Sorcerer's advantage isn't being able to pick and choose its spells, it's being able to pick and choose its spells from a better list. They have access to powerful spells that fixed-list casters don't, like polymorph and wings of flurry and...stuff. In particular, their high-level spells tend to be a lot more powerful.

The other advantage is the wealth of splat support. Not only are there ACFs to customize your build and feats that require sorcerer levels, there's even white dragonspawn and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage just to power the class up even further.

All that said, I think it is very hard to get a sorcerer to match a fixed-list caster, and I agree with Cosi's analysis except that I would not characterize the warmage list as "a large number of bad spells." There's a surprising amount of good stuff on that list.

Karl Aegis

2019-04-24, 12:59 AM

Ummm... if a sorcerer gains the ability to repick their spells known, they instantly overwhelm the versatility of wizards. Even if it's once per day ala an item that grants psychic reformation 1x per day, they easily outclass any other class' versatility because they don't need to pick from spellbooks. They have access to all the spells in creation. The only way a wizard has equal versatility is if they have a spellbook with all the spells ever written.

The point in contention is whether or not being able to customize your sorcerer's spells known is significantly better than the class features, skills, spells per day, hit dice, saves, spell lists, itemization and feat support of three other classes. One class feature with nothing else, versus entire classes. If come classes aren't better than part of a class feature, those classes are bad.

Grim Reader

2019-04-24, 03:06 AM

Does a sorcerer's ability to customize their spells known make them significantly more powerful than the fixed list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage)?

There are several variables to this. How good you are at picking spells, because poor spell picks can put a Sorcerer down below even the Warmage. And what level you are at, the Sorcerer just can't match the Beguiler at the early levels. The Beguiler list is just too good on low levels and contains far more good spells than the Sorcerer can pick. But assuming good spell picks, the Sorcerer will eventually be more powerful than these classes. It is in fact possible for a very high level Sorcerer to cover both the Beguiler and Warmage jobs, and even a bit of Dread Necromancer with a few spell picks left over.

The Warmage is pretty easy to outshine. Its list is a wonder of redundancy, and a Sorcerer can even pick better blasting spells than the Warmage gets.

The Beguiler is better at low levels but falls behind at high levels. The Beguiler spell list at the higher levels is very poor compared to Sorcerer picks, and better high level spells beat better lower level spells. The Beguiler list also has redundancy although not as bad as the Warmage. The Warmage has vertical and horizontal redundancy, with multiple spells that basically blast at every level. The beguiler has no horizontal redundancy, with spells that do different things at each level. But does suffer from vertical redundancy. For example they get Obscuring Mist, Fog cloud, Solid Fog, and Mind Fog. And its nice to get them for free, but they are not equal to four Sorcerer spell picks of those levels. Similarly, you get the Charm line, Images, Invisibilities etc. All good spells but the higher level versions obsoletes the lower level ones to a degree, and often a single Sorcerer pick can do the job of an entire line.

Of course most games do not get to the levels where the Sorcerer becomes clearly better.

The Dread Necromancer is a bit of an odd one though. The spell list contains stuff like Harm and others that aren't pickable by Sorcerers without PrCs or other work. And it has a lot of abilities that are harder to replicate. A Sorcerer can do the Necromancer minion master, but even at high levels the Dread Necromancers truf is harder to muscle in on.

Troacctid

2019-04-24, 03:37 AM

The Warmage is pretty easy to outshine. Its list is a wonder of redundancy, and a Sorcerer can even pick better blasting spells than the Warmage gets.
It's actually trickier than it looks. In my attempts so far, I've either ended up doing the same thing as the warmage, but with fewer options and no warmage edge; or doing part of what the warmage does, but failing to replicate all the functionality of the warmage list. You have to get to pretty high levels before you can start getting an advantage.

For example they get Obscuring Mist, Fog cloud, Solid Fog, and Mind Fog.
Why is mind fog in this group?

Grim Reader

2019-04-24, 04:05 AM

It's actually trickier than it looks. In my attempts so far, I've either ended up doing the same thing as the warmage, but with fewer options and no warmage edge; or doing part of what the warmage does, but failing to replicate all the functionality of the warmage list. You have to get to pretty high levels before you can start getting an advantage.

Well, my thought was, you can do most of the blasting with a few picks and maybe one feat. The non-blasting stuff such as Black Tentacles, Cloudkill etc are often worth a pick or two anyway. The rest of your picks let you pick spells that can do things the Warmage can't do. By the time you get to the Tentacles and Acid Fogs, you'll also have things such as Celerity, Wings of Flurry, and Arcane Fusion, which help blasting a lot.

Why is mind fog in this group?

because I am at work and dashing posts of as fast as possible, with too few brain cells involved. I think you get my point, though?

Cosi

2019-04-24, 06:59 AM

Then amend my terminology to "most powerful spells in the game" if that offends your sensibilities less. :smallamused:

Not really, because the same principle applies. You have to get to pretty high levels before the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer stop having top-tier Sorcerer spells on their list. There are spells they don't get -- like alter self and teleport -- but there are also spells they do get -- like charm monster and planar binding. The Sorcerer has a broad list of powerful spells to pick from, but he only picks a fairly small number of them. Compare a 12th level Sorcerer to a 12th level Dread Necromancer. The former gets any 6th level spell. The latter gets planar binding (one of the best 6th level spells) and also acid fog and circle of death. Is there a 6th level Sorcerer spell better enough than even non-broken applications of planar binding to close that gap? Because if the Sorcerer takes planar binding at that point, he's behind even if he has other choices on his list.

Have you had a look at any Dread Necro or Beguiler handbooks? Because most of them state that those two classes often do better being single-classed right through the game.

This is the first result (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=727.0) I get searching for "Beguiler Handbook". You'll note no mention of Rainbow Servant, not even something like "if text trumps table, this class is good". There's also no mention of Prestige Domains (he mentions Arcane Discipline, and Divine Oracle, but not the substitute domain trick), or Apprentice (Spellcaster), or Knowstones (they do mention Runestaves). It just kind of seems like the person writing that doesn't understand what PrCs are good for Beguilers. They're looking at the list of PrCs that standard casters want that Beguilers can still get, and looking to see if they're good for Beguilers.

The first Dread Necromancer handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook) I found also lacks any consideration of Rainbow Servant, let alone any of the other tricks that work for fixed-list casters.

Certainly, there are advantages to staying single-classed, particularly for Dread Necromancers. But it sounds less like the Handbooks you've been reading have seriously evaluated those advantages against the ones of PrCs and decided against and more like they simply don't understand what PrCs work best for these characters. Which is fine, it's a very different angle of attack than most other casters use. But if you're not considering the best PrCs, you haven't done a lot to convince me PrCs are weak.

except that I would not characterize the warmage list as "a large number of bad spells." There's a surprising amount of good stuff on that list.

There's good stuff there, sure. You get like one solid BFC spell per spell level, which is not nothing. But blasting spells are weak, and in particular getting every flavor of blasting spell is not a big deal. The Dread Necromancer getting some minionmancy spells, some single target spells, and some AoE spells represents meaningful versatility. The Warmage getting some Fire spells, some Ice spells, and some Acid spells ... less so.

Jack_Simth

2019-04-24, 07:08 AM

The number of possible Sorcerer spell lists is larger than the number of PrC combinations. And yet we have no trouble evaluating Sorcerer spell selection. Why? Because we can look at particular examples, and observe the power levels of those examples. Just as we don't have to consider "cloudkill + teleport + lesser planar binding" and "cloudkill + fabricate + lesser planar binding" and "cloudkill + dismissal + lesser planar binding" and so on for every combination of three 5th level spells to prove that the Sorcerer picking lesser planar binding is a good choice at at 13th level, we don't have to consider every possible PrC to observe that Beguilers benefit from them. One is quite sufficient: the Rainbow Servant.

Which, in specific, hits the "fuzzy rules" of point 4 (which you apparently skipped). If Rainbow Servant is treated as the way it's obviously intended, then the four lost caster levels make it extremely lackluster. It'll have extreme variance on it's usefulness from table to table. Also does nothing for point 1 (which you also skipped...) in that by the 3.5 DMG PrC header, PrC's are supposed to be specifically introduced into the campaign as part of the DM's world building, rather than as simple character options, which means what PrC's are available is supposed to vary - WILDLY - from table to table. You can't rely on any one being available.

Yes, at the levels where the Beguiler is overwhelmingly superior to the Sorcerer,
The Beguiler is only overwhelmingly superior at his specialty. In a scenario where the Beguiler's mind-mojo isn't going to help, the Sorc had the option of picking up spells known that would (but may not have - standard fare for tier-2), while the Beguiler's stuck with the class list that can't help there (standard fare for tier-3).

it can't take a PrC (of course, you not only can but must take Apprentice at 1st level, but that's neither here nor there). This is a very compelling argument that would change the opinion of reasonable people.

You're implying I'm not being reasonable, here. I would reiterate that you might want to consider re-reading the forum rules.

Not quite. Prestige Domains add their full list, and the Beguiler can get substitute domain from an (Eternal) Wand or Apprentice. So you get the power spike at 7th level. I suspect a large part of the evaluation of the fixed-list casters come down to most people simply not considering optimization strategies for them.
And... given that you keep skipping points I've directed at you, I'll just skip this one so you're aware what it's like from the other side (I could answer it, I'm just not going to, so that you get a better understanding of what your own tactics feel like).

The Kool

2019-04-24, 07:12 AM

All this hate on the Warmage. I quite enjoyed my Warmage, thank you. Annoyed the crap out of my DMs by always having the right blasting spell for the situation at hand, and being able to spam it even if it's an obscure one.

All this discussion I think keeps reiterating my point: If you want to do something that falls in line with one of the fixed-list casters, that caster will be better at it than a sorcerer. If you want to do anything else, you'll need to be a sorcerer.

Some (but not all) of the most powerful builds are not in line with the fixed-list casters, so if you want to go those routes with one you'll have to jump through a lot of hoops and it would be easier to do with the sorcerer. Overall, the sorcerer is vastly more flexible, and can reach a higher peak of optimization in most scenarios than a fixed-list caster can... but if you're playing right into one of the fixed-list casters, just go for that class.

Cosi

2019-04-24, 07:20 AM

Jack_Simth

2019-04-24, 07:25 AM

What I'm hearing is that you don't have an answer. That's fine. It's a strong argument, and it does make the classes substantially better. But if you're not going to argue with me, it seems like your time would be better spent in a thread where you aren't part of an argument with me.
You completely skipped enumerated points 1 and 4. Should I take that action to mean you are completely giving up and accept those points as utter truth, which would invalidate your stance?

The Kool

2019-04-24, 07:34 AM

Guys, attacking each other gets nobody anywhere and just brings the ire of the moderators. Keep it to attacking the arguments, please.

To whit: There's been some dancing around the discussion of prestige classes and how they relate to fixed-list casters vs sorcerers, however, that wasn't the question asked by OP. It's true, they can be a huge boost, to both FLC and Sorc, but they kind of bring everyone up to a new level. That's not contingent on the merits of the base class though, it's the merits of a PrC on a limited-list caster (which FLCs and Sorcs both are). It's true, some classes will have an easier time of entering a PrC than other classes, but that swings both ways depending on which base class and which PrC you look at. The point is, it's a completely different discussion for a completely different thread... unless you're stating that either FLCs or Sorcs gain some significant benefit to bring it above the other in the same case? Is a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant stronger than a Sorcerer/Rainbow Servant? (I don't know the PrC, so I'm legitimately curious.)

Grim Reader

2019-04-24, 07:36 AM

All this discussion I think keeps reiterating my point: If you want to do something that falls in line with one of the fixed-list casters, that caster will be better at it than a sorcerer. If you want to do anything else, you'll need to be a sorcerer.

I am not sure that is true. A Sorcerer can be a far better blaster than a Warmage, and with resources left over. There is a reason the Mailman is not a Warmage build. As for the other two, the Sorcerer can cover a lot of their territory with some resources left over. Meaning the Sorcerer can do something that falls in line with their area of competency, at higher levels quite a bit of both their areas of competency, and something else.

There's also no mention of Prestige Domains (he mentions Arcane Discipline, and Divine Oracle, but not the substitute domain trick), or Apprentice (Spellcaster), or Knowstones (they do mention Runestaves).

Prestige domains don't work well for Beguilers. They have to give up a spell pick for every spell they put on their list, and they are much shorter on spell picks than Sorcerers.

Also, I am genuinly curious: Does anyone else think the Apprentice (Spellcaster) trick works ?

Cosi

2019-04-24, 07:38 AM

All this discussion I think keeps reiterating my point: If you want to do something that falls in line with one of the fixed-list casters, that caster will be better at it than a sorcerer. If you want to do anything else, you'll need to be a sorcerer.

This is wrong. If you think the fixed-list casters are only good at their specialty, you're not appreciating the external tools available to those classes. For all that people talk about the power the Sorcerer gets from PrCs, a properly PrC'd fixed-list caster is probably the most versatile character in the entire game.

You completely skipped enumerated points 1 and 4. Should I take that action to mean you are completely giving up and accept those points as utter truth, which would invalidate your stance?

I responded to other people's points that are analogous 4 elsewhere, and 1 isn't a relevant argument, as "what if the DM modifies stuff" makes all debates about printed stuff irrelevant. What if the DM modifies Zodars (he can do this as they are 3.0 content) to seek out and serve Beguilers? You specifically called out a point that invalidated your other points as something you were ignoring.

Guys, attacking each other gets nobody anywhere and just brings the ire of the moderators. Keep it to attacking the arguments, please.

I've been doing so. Jack keeps trying to insinuate that claims about his arguments are claims about him. They aren't, and they aren't intended that way.

Prestige domains don't work well for Beguilers. They have to give up a spell pick for every spell they put on their list, and they are much shorter on spell picks than Sorcerers.

This is false. We've been over this before, and your interpretation breaks Advanced Learning, and probably other stuff. Only functional rules make Prestige Domains (and Apprentice) work for fixed-list casters.

Grim Reader

2019-04-24, 07:49 AM

This is false. We've been over this before, and your interpretation breaks Advanced Learning, and probably other stuff. Only functional rules make Prestige Domains (and Apprentice) work for fixed-list casters.

How does it break Advanced Learning? I have said that most DMs would be lenient enough to let advanced Learnings count as spell picks to keep Prestige Domains from being totally useless to Fixed-List casters. That hardly breaks them.

Grim Reader

2019-04-24, 08:02 AM

The point is, it's a completely different discussion for a completely different thread... unless you're stating that either FLCs or Sorcs gain some significant benefit to bring it above the other in the same case? Is a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant stronger than a Sorcerer/Rainbow Servant? (I don't know the PrC, so I'm legitimately curious.)

There are two interpretations of this. The capstone of Rainbow Servant is the ability to access Cleric spells. It reads "A 10th level Rainbow Servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has." It goes on to reiterate that the class feature grants access to the spells.

Now the first interpretation goes that this grants access in the same way the base class normally gets access to spells. A wizard scribes them into his spellbook, a Sorcer picks them at leveling, etc. But the fixed list casters simply knows all the spells on their list. So they'd get to know them all.

The second, less popular interpretation goes that since the class feature actually specifies that the spells do not appear on the fixed casters lists, they do not automatically learn them all, and have to use other learning methods to get them. Knowstones, Extra Spell, Advanced Learning etc.

Under the first interpretation Rainbow Servant is vastly, vastly better for fixed list casters. Incomparably so, it outshines every other PrC by a degree of magnitude. It literally gives them thousands of spells known at once. It arguably jumps then to T0.

Under the second, it is a bit better for Sorcerers who have more spell picks.

The Kool

2019-04-24, 08:29 AM

"A 10th level Rainbow Servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has."

Under the first interpretation Rainbow Servant is vastly, vastly better for fixed list casters. Incomparably so, it outshines every other PrC by a degree of magnitude. It literally gives them thousands of spells known at once. It arguably jumps then to T0.

Arguably? I think pretty definitively. However, the underlined word in the quote above lends me plenty enough evidence to rule against that interpretation. If playing with a DM that chose to rule otherwise... I'd probably bow out of the game as the entire party will be nigh-pointless next to whomever inevitably decides to build a T0 caster.

I'll go so far as to say that that particular instance can be considered a specific exploit, and specific exploits should not be considered in gauging the general power of the class itself, or the type of class. If the exploits are common or plentiful, that would be a different matter, but if there's merely one or two that require DM adjudication in your favor, I think they can be excluded from the comparison.

Anthrowhale

2019-04-24, 08:32 AM

In my attempts so far, I've either ended up doing the same thing as the warmage, but with fewer options and no warmage edge;
Maybe Bloodline of Fire + Searing Spell?

That allows you to specialize in fire making additional damage options relatively pointless.

From there, picking up:
1. Burning Hands + Lesser Orb of Fire + True Strike
2. Combust
3. Fireball
4. Orb of Fire
5. Arcane Fusion
8. Greater Arcane Fusion

leaves you on par or better as far as damage in most situations with many additional spells known.

ericgrau

2019-04-24, 10:04 AM

You should also remember that it takes immense IRL time to plan out a prepared caster's changing daily list and scouting to determine that list. Most people don't have that kind of time and for practical purposes a spontaneous class with a better spell list is often simply better at casting than a class with a worse list. Items are also super wonderful for helping both a spontaneous and a prepared class handle situations they didn't prepare for. And many like scrolls require that the spell be on your list. Or UMD.

If you optimize more and blow all your free time and drag down the game, the value of preparing spells may increase. But then sorcs have better optimization support in other ways too. So even then as people are discussing the answer's not cut and dry.

noce

2019-04-24, 10:32 AM

eggynack

2019-04-24, 11:47 AM

The Beguiler is only overwhelmingly superior at his specialty. In a scenario where the Beguiler's mind-mojo isn't going to help, the Sorc had the option of picking up spells known that would (but may not have - standard fare for tier-2), while the Beguiler's stuck with the class list that can't help there (standard fare for tier-3).
Ludicrously untrue. The only first level spells that could be reasonably defined as mind-mojo are charm person, hypnotism, sleep, and whelm. The remains work perfectly fine on anything, particularly because no one is going to be packing much in the way of illusion piercing at that level (whereas some creatures may well be zombies or whatever). This leaves you ten separate spells, with two, color spray and silent image, having solid claim to best first in game status. Of course, charm person and sleep also separately have some claim to that role, which is nice in those many scenarios where you're not fighting immune enemies. And then you separately get heaps of not-mind-mojo utility, like comprehend languages, disguise self, mage armor, expeditious retreat, and so on.

Then you get to second level spells, and the situation is similar. Maybe even less favorable to your position. First level had charm person as a best-in-game option that could be removed by a situation. Second level has, what, daze monster? No, the spells of this level rely even less on mind-affecting stuff, with classics like glitterdust, invisibility, mirror image, and silence, alongside roughly a billion other spells. Detect thoughts, spider climb, knock, it's a lot to contend with. Sorcerer gets an alter self advantage here, so they won't be literally just taking the beguiler spells and having fewer of them, but it's not good.

I'ma stop at 3rd's. Dispel magic, haste, slow, frigging glibness (which isn't mind-affecting, though I suppose you need your foe to have a mind at all). These are amazing spells. How can a sorcerer do better? This idea that beguilers are screwed when their wily charming ways are inapplicable is just super wrong. I think people forget that stuff like color spray and invisibility don't care all that much about opposing defenses. Like, an alternate vision mode helps with some of this, but at this point we're talking about that ludicrously narrow cross-section of mind-affecting immune targets with great alternate vision modes, and you can still color spray them.

The Kool

2019-04-24, 11:55 AM

~snip~

Yeah... I forgot how much I just... disagree with the Beguiler list. "This caster is supposed to be good at X, but we're actually going to give it spells from categories XYZ that branch outside his theme simply because we want him to not be pathetic OOPS we wound up giving him some of the best spells in the game"

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 01:09 PM

The point in contention is whether or not being able to customize your sorcerer's spells known is significantly better than the class features, skills, spells per day, hit dice, saves, spell lists, itemization and feat support of three other classes. One class feature with nothing else, versus entire classes. If come classes aren't better than part of a class feature, those classes are bad.

Yes, and my point still stands: the fact that a sorcerer picks his list is WHY the reformation trick works, making it the most powerful way to get spells. Because tricks exist that allow you to repick your spell selection, picking your spells is the most powerful way to get spells. And, since sorcerers pick from the most comprehensive list in the game, with prestige classes giving them even wider selection, there isn't a single other class in the game that can even compete.

Sorcerers, in that respect, are the number one most versatile, and powerful, class.

Taking reselection off the table, the spell lists of the three classes mentioned leave much to be desired. Sure, there's some decent stuff on their lists. But there's several things missing that weaken them considerably. Summon monster, in particular, is one spell that really stands out. It gives so much access to so many abilities that it the loss of it weakens a mage considerably. You can function without it of course, but having that available opens so many tactical avenues. And that's just one example. What about wall of force or the more powerful forcecage? I don't see web on any of those lists either which is a major BFC spell. I also do not see teleport or dimension door on any of those lists. These glaring losses are not, in any way, compensated by the class abilities.

eggynack

2019-04-24, 01:45 PM

Taking reselection off the table, the spell lists of the three classes mentioned leave much to be desired. Sure, there's some decent stuff on their lists. But there's several things missing that weaken them considerably. Summon monster, in particular, is one spell that really stands out. It gives so much access to so many abilities that it the loss of it weakens a mage considerably. You can function without it of course, but having that available opens so many tactical avenues. And that's just one example. What about wall of force or the more powerful forcecage? I don't see web on any of those lists either which is a major BFC spell. I also do not see teleport or dimension door on any of those lists. These glaring losses are not, in any way, compensated by the class abilities.

These glaring losses are compensated by the spells. Assume an 8th level sorcerer. What two third level spells can that sorcerer pick that are better than the beguiler list of thirds? What three spells can they pick during the next two levels? Are you using summon monster and some BFC spell to overcome dispel magic, glibness, haste, slow, suggestion, clairaudience/clairvoyance, arcane sight, and a bunch of others? I am skeptical, to say the least.

And this is a somewhat favorable comparison for the sorcerer. The sorcerer only gets a single 4th level spell at 8th level. Is the sorcerer going to use summon monster IV to single handedly beat 11 separate spells? Solid fog, freedom of movement, charm monster, greater invisibility, all these and more dealt with by one spell? The sorcerer's actually probably going to pick polymorph, but I am again skeptical that polymorph is better than all 11 of these spells. Polymorph and something else would struggle a lot as well.

Even this comparison is favorable to the sorcerer as a class overall. After all, you know what's a perfectly viable pick as the one 4th level spell for an 8th level sorcerer? Solid fog. It's not the best choice, but it's far from the worst, and it's not like sorcerers have a spell to grant their players better spell selection ability. It's a reasonable scenario that obviously leaves a sorcerer in the dust.

Grim Reader

2019-04-24, 02:28 PM

eggynack

2019-04-24, 02:38 PM

Well.

Celerity, Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover, Dimension Hop, Dimension Door, Teleport, Alter Self, Polymorph, Heart of Water, Heart of Earth, Resilient Sphere, Ruin Delvers Fortune, Summon Monster, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Arcane Fusion, Enervation, Wall of Force, Cloudkill...
So wings of cover, by itself, is as good as those eleven beguiler 4th's? Or even wings of cover plus enervation? You get like four spells of each spell level maximum, and the number trends low during the most pertinent levels. Obviously if you get to list like a billion spells, then the sorcerer crushes the beguiler trivially. But you don't get that many spells, so you have to be specific. Which couple spells are you picking, and when? The comparison is frequently going to be beguiler favorable.

Level 8, I believe the Beguiler will normally have the edge. But this is towards the end of Beguiler dominance. Unlike level 1, by now there are actually quite a few great spells not on the Beguiler list. Over the next few levels the Sorcerer spells just get exponentially better, whereas the spells the Beguiler gets contain fewer and fewer gems.
Yeah, the break point where an optimized sorcerer starts outdoing a totally bog standard beguiler is like level ten. And then the classes become approximately equal again at level 18 because ice assassin is about as good as the whole sorcerer pile. Calthropstu was asserting, however, that the beguiler spell list leaves much to be desired. It's an incredibly untrue statement across the majority of levels.

Troacctid

2019-04-24, 02:43 PM

There's good stuff there, sure. You get like one solid BFC spell per spell level, which is not nothing. But blasting spells are weak, and in particular getting every flavor of blasting spell is not a big deal. The Dread Necromancer getting some minionmancy spells, some single target spells, and some AoE spells represents meaningful versatility. The Warmage getting some Fire spells, some Ice spells, and some Acid spells ... less so.
Blasting spells are arguably the most efficient and reliable damage delivery mechanism in the entire game. They're most certainly not weak.

I am not sure that is true. A Sorcerer can be a far better blaster than a Warmage, and with resources left over. There is a reason the Mailman is not a Warmage build. As for the other two, the Sorcerer can cover a lot of their territory with some resources left over. Meaning the Sorcerer can do something that falls in line with their area of competency, at higher levels quite a bit of both their areas of competency, and something else.
Show me.

Maybe Bloodline of Fire + Searing Spell?

That allows you to specialize in fire making additional damage options relatively pointless.

From there, picking up:
1. Burning Hands + Lesser Orb of Fire + True Strike
2. Combust
3. Fireball
4. Orb of Fire
5. Arcane Fusion
8. Greater Arcane Fusion

leaves you on par or better as far as damage in most situations with many additional spells known.
All you covered was extremely basic blasting. Where's your battlefield control? How do you deal with a group of enemies who have spell resistance or evasion? What about incorporeal enemies? Can you audible between lines, cones, and bursts? Can you break objects? Do you have spells that you can cast without somatic components? Without verbal components? What if an enemy has spell resistance, but is out of close range? What about defensive spells? Save-or-die effects? What if it's an aquatic battle? Warmages are prepared for all these eventualities without even having to use an advanced learning slot—are you?

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 02:50 PM

These glaring losses are compensated by the spells. Assume an 8th level sorcerer. What two third level spells can that sorcerer pick that are better than the beguiler list of thirds? What three spells can they pick during the next two levels? Are you using summon monster and some BFC spell to overcome dispel magic, glibness, haste, slow, suggestion, clairaudience/clairvoyance, arcane sight, and a bunch of others? I am skeptical, to say the least.

And this is a somewhat favorable comparison for the sorcerer. The sorcerer only gets a single 4th level spell at 8th level. Is the sorcerer going to use summon monster IV to single handedly beat 11 separate spells? Solid fog, freedom of movement, charm monster, greater invisibility, all these and more dealt with by one spell? The sorcerer's actually probably going to pick polymorph, but I am again skeptical that polymorph is better than all 11 of these spells. Polymorph and something else would struggle a lot as well.

Even this comparison is favorable to the sorcerer as a class overall. After all, you know what's a perfectly viable pick as the one 4th level spell for an 8th level sorcerer? Solid fog. It's not the best choice, but it's far from the worst, and it's not like sorcerers have a spell to grant their players better spell selection ability. It's a reasonable scenario that obviously leaves a sorcerer in the dust.

Summon monster 4 comes with the following:
Gust of wind
Wind wall
Soften earth and stone
Scorching ray
Heat metal
magic missle
chill metal
pyrotechnics
acid arrow
stinking cloud
glitterdust
aid
detect evil
continual flame

Not to mention a whole slew of other abilities that aren't spell like.
Each summon monster after compounds upon that exponentially because they can not only access all of these, but multiples of these as well as adding even more spells and abilities.

In short, yeah... summon monster matches your entire list.
But I would take that at 9th rather than 8th unless I am summons built. Instead, my character takes... Dimension door.
Dimension door beats all of your spells and abilities. Head to head, with dimension door your character simply cannot kill me unless he does it with one shot.

Here's a sample spell list which counters all 3 characters:
8th lvl sorcerer
4th: Dimension door
3rd: Summon monster 3, fly
2nd: Web, invisibility, ray of enfeeblement
1st: charm person, magic missile, shield, protection from evil, power word: pain

I stealth in invisibly, summon a monster to attack. While you counter the summoned monster, I hit you with power word pain, then I dimension door out. Meanwhile, the beguiler must waste another spell trying to dispel my power word. Then they expend resources healing the damage. I am out 4 spells, they are out at least twice that many plus physical resources to take care of the healing. And they have no spells with which to track me down (and never will). So:
Damage dealt to their party, not a scratch on me, repeatable about 4 times per day. Over the course of a week, this character kills all 3 with not a damn thing they can do about it. And that's with them working TOGETHER. Apart, they each fall on day 1.
Simply put, Sorcerers can put together combos that the other three simply cannot counter. Hell, almost any lvl 8 hcharacter would be hard pressed to counter that.

Chronos

2019-04-24, 02:51 PM

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 02:54 PM

A beguiler is certainly going to be better than a sorcerer at low levels. What two spells will an optimized sorcerer pick at first level? Any two of Sleep, Color Spray, Charm Person, or Silent Image would be good choices. And a beguiler gets all four of those, plus more. Plus better skills, HP, BAB, and saves.

At first level, sure. Sorcerers are the bottom of the heap. By mid levels, they start taking over and by 20th it's no contest.

Sorcerers are the strongest class in the game by miles because of spell selection and the list they have access to.

Troacctid

2019-04-24, 03:10 PM

I stealth in invisibly, summon a monster to attack. While you counter the summoned monster, I hit you with power word pain, then I dimension door out. Meanwhile, the beguiler must waste another spell trying to dispel my power word. Then they expend resources healing the damage. I am out 4 spells, they are out at least twice that many plus physical resources to take care of the healing. And they have no spells with which to track me down (and never will). So:
Damage dealt to their party, not a scratch on me, repeatable about 4 times per day. Over the course of a week, this character kills all 3 with not a damn thing they can do about it. And that's with them working TOGETHER. Apart, they each fall on day 1.
Simply put, Sorcerers can put together combos that the other three simply cannot counter. Hell, almost any lvl 8 hcharacter would be hard pressed to counter that.
...Why would you be fighting each other? Also, you can't kill a dread necromancer with strike-and-retreat tactics because like 90% of them are gonna have at-will self-healing with Tomb-Tainted Soul, and with your average of 37 HP, the warmage could easily one-shot you with a sudden empowered fireball right through your invisibility. And beguilers have see invisibility. Honestly this is just so wrong in so many ways.

eggynack

2019-04-24, 03:29 PM

Summon monster 4 comes with the following:
Gust of wind
Wind wall
Soften earth and stone
Scorching ray
Heat metal
magic missle
chill metal
pyrotechnics
acid arrow
stinking cloud
glitterdust
aid
detect evil
continual flame

Not to mention a whole slew of other abilities that aren't spell like.
Each summon monster after compounds upon that exponentially because they can not only access all of these, but multiples of these as well as adding even more spells and abilities.

In short, yeah... summon monster matches your entire list.
How, exactly, are you expecting 14 spell-likes that trend towards the low end of the zeroth to third level range to contend with eleven fourth level spells? Seriously, most of these are really bad. Aid? Detect evil? Continual flame? Multiple separate mediocre blasting options? Stinking cloud, wind wall, soften earth and stone, and maybe pyrotechnics are solid. The rest is pretty crap. I'm not sure I'd take this entire stack over solid fog.

But I would take that at 9th rather than 8th unless I am summons built. Instead, my character takes... Dimension door.
Dimension door beats all of your spells and abilities. Head to head, with dimension door your character simply cannot kill me unless he does it with one shot.

This is a really bizarre assertion in two separate ways. First, character evaluation doesn't happen in a head to head environment. It's usually understood in a character versus encounters context. Second, running away isn't winning. This is true whether you're in an arena battle or an actual encounter.

Here's a sample spell list which counters all 3 characters:
8th lvl sorcerer
4th: Dimension door
3rd: Summon monster 3, fly
2nd: Web, invisibility, ray of enfeeblement
1st: charm person, magic missile, shield, protection from evil, power word: pain
This is just vastly inferior to to beguiler list. The beguiler has clearly greater stealth capacity, the capacity to deal with a way wider variety of non-combat scenarios, better combat spells, really everything you have except for, like, movement options.

I stealth in invisibly, summon a monster to attack. While you counter the summoned monster, I hit you with power word pain, then I dimension door out. Meanwhile, the beguiler must waste another spell trying to dispel my power word. Then they expend resources healing the damage. I am out 4 spells, they are out at least twice that many plus physical resources to take care of the healing.

Why are you assuming you get to ambush the beguiler? The beguiler also has invisibility. The beguiler has greater invisibility. Why isn't the beguiler using that invisibility, or mirror image, or anything that isn't directly countering everything you do one at a time? What is this scenario?

And they have no spells with which to track me down (and never will).

The beguiler has significantly greater you finding ability than you have beguiler finding ability. Locate creature, arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and see invisibility, primarily. Your invisible stealth is way less effective than the beguiler's is. The beguiler even has nonsense like misdirection and nondetection on their list. And your big plan is to outstealth all of that so well that repeated instances of 5d6 damage is sufficient for victory.

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 04:02 PM

How, exactly, are you expecting 14 spell-likes that trend towards the low end of the zeroth to third level range to contend with eleven fourth level spells? Seriously, most of these are really bad. Aid? Detect evil? Continual flame? Multiple separate mediocre blasting options? Stinking cloud, wind wall, soften earth and stone, and maybe pyrotechnics are solid. The rest is pretty crap. I'm not sure I'd take this entire stack over solid fog.

This is a really bizarre assertion in two separate ways. First, character evaluation doesn't happen in a head to head environment. It's usually understood in a character versus encounters context. Second, running away isn't winning. This is true whether you're in an arena battle or an actual encounter.

This is just vastly inferior to to beguiler list. The beguiler has clearly greater stealth capacity, the capacity to deal with a way wider variety of non-combat scenarios, better combat spells, really everything you have except for, like, movement options.

Why are you assuming you get to ambush the beguiler? The beguiler also has invisibility. The beguiler has greater invisibility. Why isn't the beguiler using that invisibility, or mirror image, or anything that isn't directly countering everything you do one at a time? What is this scenario?

The beguiler has significantly greater you finding ability than you have beguiler finding ability. Locate creature, arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and see invisibility, primarily. Your invisible stealth is way less effective than the beguiler's is. The beguiler even has nonsense like misdirection and nondetection on their list. And your big plan is to outstealth all of that so well that repeated instances of 5d6 damage is sufficient for victory.

They get the jump on me (assuming I survive 1 round) I am out of there with dimension door. If things start going south, I am out of there with dimension door. I get the jump on them because I have the time to do so. Dimension door is so absurdly powerful that it literally changes the game. And fixed list casters never get it.

Alternatively, I can simply cast fly, go invisible and bombard them from max fireball range, casting and retreating beyond the warmage's ability to reply. The sorcerer, using dimension door, can beat ANY of these spell lists because it gives such a massive mobility advantage. They also don't have fly which is another glaring weakness. In fact, the mobility of these casters is.. pure basic. I think I saw maybe one with haste. Sure, you can purchase flying mounts. But again, dimension door beats both.

Mobility wins battles. Dimension door should never be underestimated.

Grim Reader

2019-04-24, 04:08 PM

Yeah, the break point where an optimized sorcerer starts outdoing a totally bog standard beguiler is like level ten. And then the classes become approximately equal again at level 18 because ice assassin is about as good as the whole sorcerer pile. Calthropstu was asserting, however, that the beguiler spell list leaves much to be desired. It's an incredibly untrue statement across the majority of levels.

I don't think we really disagree on anything. Well I think Beguilers get Ice Assassin at level 19;)

For the record, in a vacuum my two fourth level pics are probably Polymorph and Celerity. (Calthropstu, read Celerity. You'll like it:) )

Show me.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515985-Build-a-Sorcerer-Warmage-Dread-Necromancer-Beguiler

Gnaeus

2019-04-24, 04:11 PM

IMO beguiler and Dread Necro beat sorcerer at almost every level. But really the discussion hinges on that bane of tier discussion everywhere... comparative optimization.

I can’t imagine any competent beguiler/DN NOT expanding their list. The only good reason not to take list expanding feats is if you are using those feats to qualify for list expanding PRCs. So the only sorcerer I would compare with the fixed list is a sorcerer without the opti-fu to pick their best spells. By the optimization level at which the 9th level sorcerer is picking DDoor and SM IV the Beguiler is mimicking those same tricks in other ways. At the same time, in my group, dragonwrought loredrake kobolds are TO and not a meaningful comparison. If your answer for what equal optimization means changes, your conclusion will change.

eggynack

2019-04-24, 04:14 PM

They get the jump on me (assuming I survive 1 round) I am out of there with dimension door. If things start going south, I am out of there with dimension door. I get the jump on them because I have the time to do so. Dimension door is so absurdly powerful that it literally changes the game. And fixed list casters never get it.

Alternatively, I can simply cast fly, go invisible and bombard them from max fireball range, casting and retreating beyond the warmage's ability to reply. The sorcerer, using dimension door, can beat ANY of these spell lists because it gives such a massive mobility advantage. They also don't have fly which is another glaring weakness. In fact, the mobility of these casters is.. pure basic. I think I saw maybe one with haste. Sure, you can purchase flying mounts. But again, dimension door beats both.

Mobility wins battles. Dimension door should never be underestimated.
But, again, the beguiler has way better invisibility, as well as significantly greater capacity to pierce your invisibility. This thing where you bombard a visible beguiler who is totally unaware of your presence is based on nothing. You also have limited utility for contexts that are not fighting a beguiler. Your tools for dealing with an enemy are just SM III, web, ray of enfeeblement, charm person, magic missile, and power word: pain. Your tools for dealing with any sort of non-combat encounter are dimension door, fly, invisibility, and charm person. The beguiler has way more stuff for dealing with these problems.

This list you've created is ludicrously unconvincing.

Troacctid

2019-04-24, 04:23 PM

They get the jump on me (assuming I survive 1 round) I am out of there with dimension door. If things start going south, I am out of there with dimension door. I get the jump on them because I have the time to do so. Dimension door is so absurdly powerful that it literally changes the game. And fixed list casters never get it.

Alternatively, I can simply cast fly, go invisible and bombard them from max fireball range, casting and retreating beyond the warmage's ability to reply. The sorcerer, using dimension door, can beat ANY of these spell lists because it gives such a massive mobility advantage. They also don't have fly which is another glaring weakness. In fact, the mobility of these casters is.. pure basic. I think I saw maybe one with haste. Sure, you can purchase flying mounts. But again, dimension door beats both.

Mobility wins battles. Dimension door should never be underestimated.
How are you going to survive a round? You have a d4 hit die. The warmage can one-shot you. Beguiler and dread necro can both slam you with save-or-lose effects; how many times can you pass before you eventually fail? And your dimension door trick works exactly once before you get tag-teamed with silence and black tentacles so you can't do jack. And why are you fighting your teammates in the first place?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515985-Build-a-Sorcerer-Warmage-Dread-Necromancer-Beguiler
AFAICT that thread concluded that you couldn't do it.

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 04:43 PM

How are you going to survive a round? You have a d4 hit die. The warmage can one-shot you. Beguiler and dread necro can both slam you with save-or-lose effects; how many times can you pass before you eventually fail? And your dimension door trick works exactly once before you get tag-teamed with silence and black tentacles so you can't do jack. And why are you fighting your teammates in the first place?

AFAICT that thread concluded that you couldn't do it.

The warmage CAN'T SEE ME and has a monster in his face.
Black tentacles needs to be cast on the ground. I'm in the air.
Silence needs to hit me, I am invisible. The beguiler, the one with silence, must first cast see invisibility.
Power word pain might break invisibility, but I can easily give my familiar a wand of invisibility and have him activate it, or pick a familiar that can naturally cast it. Then move.
In short, the only one of these that has a shot at beating it is the beguiler, and again he eventually loses to hit and run strategies. A strategy he cannot safely utilize.

At 9th level, it gets more ridiculous as summon 4 comes into play with its myriad abilities. Once 5th level spells enter play, all of them lose outright as scry and die comes online (Another thing they don't have access to).

Early levels, sorcerer can't compete. Mid levels, each one of them loses hands down. High levels, they don't even put up a fight and can literally never succeed.

eggynack

2019-04-24, 04:54 PM

Snip
I still have literally no idea how you plan to contend with the beguiler being invisible. Being invisible is like the beguiler's whole thing.

Troacctid

2019-04-24, 04:57 PM

The warmage CAN'T SEE ME and has a monster in his face.
Black tentacles needs to be cast on the ground. I'm in the air.
Silence needs to hit me, I am invisible. The beguiler, the one with silence, must first cast see invisibility.
Power word pain might break invisibility, but I can easily give my familiar a wand of invisibility and have him activate it, or pick a familiar that can naturally cast it. Then move.
In short, the only one of these that has a shot at beating it is the beguiler, and again he eventually loses to hit and run strategies. A strategy he cannot safely utilize.

At 9th level, it gets more ridiculous as summon 4 comes into play with its myriad abilities. Once 5th level spells enter play, all of them lose outright as scry and die comes online (Another thing they don't have access to).

Early levels, sorcerer can't compete. Mid levels, each one of them loses hands down. High levels, they don't even put up a fight and can literally never succeed.
Everything you just said was wrong.

1. The warmage can see you because they got the jump on you and you don't have your buffs up, but he doesn't need to see you anyway in order to blow you up with an empowered fireball. Certainly there is no monster in his face.
2. You're not in the air because they got the jump on you and you don't have fly up. You don't have overland flight yet because you're not level 10. If you want to always be flying and invisible, you should have been a warlock.
3. Silence doesn't need to hit you. There is no attack roll and no save. And as previously established, you are not invisible.
4. Your familiar cannot activate wands because it does not have UMD, nor do you have UMD ranks to share with it.
5. Beguilers can use your hit-and-run strategy better than you can because they actually have stealth skills.
6. Summon monster IV is functionally uncastable because it has a full round casting time and the warmage can force you to make a DC 40 concentration check or lose it.
7. High-level beguilers can't be scried because they have tons of anti-divination spells on their list.
8. Even at the highest levels, you will always have an x% chance of losing the fight by losing initiative and failing a saving throw.

Cosi

2019-04-24, 05:25 PM

I don't understand why people are bothering with Calthropsu's argument.

He's wrong about the facts, because he has no way to locate the Beguiler, no way to get the drop on the Beguiler, and no way to hide from the Beguiler after his pitiful "ambush". I think the most amusing thing is how his plan is to use minions for cover and then cast power word pain when the Beguiler is miles ahead at both of those things. As he notes, the Beguiler can dispel magic his power word pain, but he can't do anything against theirs. And charm monster is about a million times better than summon monster III. People in this thread seem to be dramatically overrating summon monster. It's not a good spell. It's anemic offensively, and the utility spells you get from it are low level, have bad DCs, and have weak caster levels. It's useful for a Wizard where it's not trading off with something good, and it lets a prepared slot be flex during the day, but a Sorcerer should pretty much never touch it.

But even if we was right, his point is just totally irrelevant. "A Sorcerer is harassing you with dimension door" or "you need to kill a Beguiler" are 1% of 1% of 1% of possible encounters. The Sorcerer could have a 100% win rate in that particular fight and it wouldn't move the needle at all. How about all the other encounters where your first 4th level spell is offensively useless (dimension door) and your 2nd 4th level spell is pulling out CR 3 pokemon at 9th level (summon monster IV). You're just useless in pretty much any realistic scenario, while the Beguiler has a bunch of spells for everything from combat to exploration to social encounters. Until Calthropsu is able to offer some explanation for why "wins a cage match" matters, there's no reason to actually engage with him on it.

I can’t imagine any competent beguiler/DN NOT expanding their list.

This is absolutely true. The Sorcerer side seems to think that the appropriate comparison is a perfectly optimized Sorcerer list versus the standard Beguiler list. That's absurd. If you're even talking about spells like celerity, planar binding, or polymorph, the Beguiler is going to be reaching for Prestige Domains. Or Knowstones. Or Rainbow Servant. Or Apprentice. Or Arcane Disciple. And even if we accept that maybe one or two of those won't work, there are still more that will, and that argument applies in equal measure to the most powerful of the Sorcerer's tools. I see it going something like this:

Low Op: Beguiler/Dread Necromancer is better at every level. Their spell list is larger, and the average spell on it is better than the average Sorcerer spell.
Mid Op: The Sorcerer can't overcome the volume of spells the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer get at low and mid levels. At high levels he can probably pull ahead, but at that point they'll have a couple Arcane Disciples or a useful Runestave.
High Op: Beguiler still rules low levels. The Sorcerer can pull ahead on raw list at mid levels, but at this point Prestige Domains + substitute domain or Apprentice (Spellcaster) are in play, and either one obliterates his spells known advantage.
TO: All of them can break the game.

There's probably a niche where the Sorcerer comes out ahead -- a mid-to-high OP game with a favorable banlist that starts at fairly high level -- but in the vast majority of circumstances the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are just better.

How does it break Advanced Learning? I have said that most DMs would be lenient enough to let advanced Learnings count as spell picks to keep Prestige Domains from being totally useless to Fixed-List casters. That hardly breaks them.

By RAW, Prestige Domains grant Beguilers all their spells. The idea that the DM could nerf that to "only one spell in a way that is not consistent with the text of the Beguiler's spellcasting ability, the Beguiler's Advanced Learning ability, or Prestige Domains" is not really relevant. As for how they break it, it depends on exactly which way you misinterpret the relevant rules to make Beguilers look bad.

Yes, and my point still stands: the fact that a sorcerer picks his list is WHY the reformation trick works, making it the most powerful way to get spells. Because tricks exist that allow you to repick your spell selection, picking your spells is the most powerful way to get spells. And, since sorcerers pick from the most comprehensive list in the game, with prestige classes giving them even wider selection, there isn't a single other class in the game that can even compete.

psychic reformation respec is worse than Prestige Domains + substitute domain. It's the same problem the baseline Sorcerer has against the baseline Beguiler. The Sorcerer can pick his spells more precisely, but the Beguiler knows so many more it's barely even relevant.

The Beguiler is likely to still have more great low level spells, but great high level spells beat great low-level spells.

Except it's not high level spells. It's high level spell. The Beguiler gets all their 5th level spells at 10th level. The Sorcerer gets one. Sure, you can probably find one that's better than anything on the Beguiler list. But you can't find one that's better than everything on the Beguiler list, and Advanced Learning, and whatever the Beguiler does to expand their list.

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 05:33 PM

Everything you just said was wrong.

1. The warmage can see you because they got the jump on you and you don't have your buffs up, but he doesn't need to see you anyway in order to blow you up with an empowered fireball. Certainly there is no monster in his face.
2. You're not in the air because they got the jump on you and you don't have fly up. You don't have overland flight yet because you're not level 10. If you want to always be flying and invisible, you should have been a warlock.
3. Silence doesn't need to hit you. There is no attack roll and no save. And as previously established, you are not invisible.
4. Your familiar cannot activate wands because it does not have UMD, nor do you have UMD ranks to share with it.
5. Beguilers can use your hit-and-run strategy better than you can because they actually have stealth skills.
6. Summon monster IV is functionally uncastable because it has a full round casting time and the warmage can force you to make a DC 40 concentration check or lose it.
7. High-level beguilers can't be scried because they have tons of anti-divination spells on their list.
8. Even at the highest levels, you will always have an x% chance of losing the fight by losing initiative and failing a saving throw.

So yeah... might want to reread the rules. Silence does in fact allow a saving throw unless cast on an item. And, cast on an item, you simply move away.
If they somehow get the jump on me (HIGHLY unlikely) sure, I may go down. If I don't go down the first round though, I am out of there with ddoor. Now, there are scenarios where it's possible to take that sorcerer out in a single round using these three. For example, the beguiler casts silence on an item, hands it to the necromancer before going into combat. Then they assault you with tentacles et al while you're asleep. But, since I am sleeping in a cave underground that can't be easily gotten to via normal methods, and since those three have zero spell capacity for finding me or getting to me... I feel I am pretty safe taking these guys out. All while using my invisible familiar to spy on them from afar.

The most likely scenario involves the sorcerer getting multiple assaults on the group of three and getting away. one on one, it isn't even a contest. And you mention fireball repeatedly saying "He doesn't have to see you" Yeah, he needs to get the fireball within 20 feet of you. Which he isn't doing if he can't see you. Again, ONLY the beguiler has a chance against this build.

Edit: and that is just THIS build. There's plenty of oter ways to build a sorcerer, and that is before taking into account scrolls. Start adding scrolls and wbl into the mix, these guys are toast.

eggynack

2019-04-24, 06:30 PM

Edit: and that is just THIS build. There's plenty of oter ways to build a sorcerer, and that is before taking into account scrolls. Start adding scrolls and wbl into the mix, these guys are toast.
I'm not sure what part of, "This isn't a weird arena fight between casters," is confusing here. This isn't a weird arena fight between casters. The way you're portraying this weird arena fight is incredibly slanted, because it relies on you setting the initial parameters of the fight and on deciding arbitrary things about the strategy of the fixed list casters, so people are commenting on that, but being able to kill a beguiler isn't the same as being as good as a beguiler.

Troacctid

2019-04-24, 06:40 PM

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 07:11 PM

The sad part is, not only is Calthropstu presenting a weird arena fight where the sorcerer has multiple extra turns to prep, the sorcerer's best plan in said fight, even with the handicap, is to run away and forfeit the objective. And if the beguiler or the warmage readies an action, the sorcerer can't even accomplish that.

Have you ever actually played against someone who knows the long game? If there IS an objective you either:
1: have to completely forfeit it in order to maintain constant vigilance against the next attack or
2: drop your guard and go after the objective.

And if it's objectives we're looking for, then the sorcerer wins there too most of the time because he doesn't have to go through the dungeon. Dimension door, grab the objective then dimension door. Pop a scroll of wizard eyes, scan the dungeon for what you're after, pop in, pop out. Beguiler and friends lose objectives.

The only time the sorcerer loses to these three put together is when they somehow manage to track him down and ambush him or when there's a powerful guardian with the objective equipped. Any other time, these guys are dead weight.

One on one, they lose the fight. 3 on one they force a retreat after damage is dealt forcing hit and run tactics. 3 on one they lose (most) objectives. Why on earth you pick these guys over a sorcerer (past lvl 8) is beyond me.

Granted, rp wise they are great. A dread necro, a beguiler and a warmage sound cool. And, compared to most people, they rock. Not saying they are incapable. I am just saying that the sorcerer has tricks and tactics available to him that these guys just can't compete with because they have no mobility enhancement, nothing to add outside their own abilities and no way of getting at a well played sorcerer.

To be fair, it IS only a few builds that can do this mind you. But even without taking mobility enhancement, the fact that sorcerers can use wizard scrolls is nothing to sneeze at. And, if we start bringing in scrolls of higher level than they can cast, a single gate scroll wrecks these guys 8 ways from sunday with almost no chance of victory.

So yeah... the sorcerer's class ability of selecting their spells from the most powerful and unrestrictive list in the game wins out in mid to high level.

edit: and dimension door GIVES me those rounds. Give it a shot. Try running a game with that particular build. Have the sorcerer's familiar look for the party. (Take points in survival for the sorcerer to make it able to track well.) Have the sorcerer get about 800 feet away (-80 on perception checks) with the familiar keeping tabs on the party. Cast the buffs. Summon a couple air elementals (summons don't break invisibility) and have the elementals attack. Then use the sorcerer to attack the party from the air. As soon as the party targets him, have him dimension door away.

Then, have the sorcerer wait about 3 hours and do the exact same thing. Do that during the night when they are trying to rest. Then have the sorcerer go somewhere that it's difficult to get to and sleep. This will crush your party. (It will also get them exceedingly mad at you.)

Karl Aegis

2019-04-24, 07:24 PM

So yeah... the sorcerer's class ability of selecting their spells from the most powerful and unrestrictive list in the game wins out in mid to high level.

No, the list wins. The point in contention in the original post, the ability to select spells, has nothing to do with why sorcerer's are good.

Cosi

2019-04-24, 07:25 PM

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 07:28 PM

No, the list wins. The point in contention in the original post, the ability to select spells, has nothing to do with why sorcerer's are good.

Fair to an extent. I still maintain that when wbl enters play and the sorcerer uses something that allows him to reselect his spells on a regular basis (only doable because he is able to select his spells in the first place) makes the ability to select absurdly powerful.

As a side question, would beguilers et al benefit from pages of spell knowledge? I would think not given the wording but it would be a decent exercise to find ways to give them more and better spells known.

eggynack

2019-04-24, 07:36 PM

Have you ever actually played against someone who knows the long game? If there IS an objective you either:
1: have to completely forfeit it in order to maintain constant vigilance against the next attack or
2: drop your guard and go after the objective.
I think I'm going to go with that second one, given that your entire offense consists of words of pain and crappy summoned monsters. Doubly so given that you're apparently using dimension doors every time you're spotted. You're going to be spotted a lot, given the beguiler has the ability to trivially pierce the only method you have of evading detection. And how is the sorcerer going to have a next attack, exactly, when the beguiler has multiple separate defenses that they have no means of piercing whatsoever? Seriously, what are summoned monsters and words of pain doing against invisibility and/or mirror image?

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 07:52 PM

Yes, let's play the long game. The Beguiler will be over here with a charm monster that lasts a week, and you will be over there with no spells that last a day. You are definitely winning this, and you have definitely thought this through.

Charm monster does not exercise control and most of the things that are useful won't be able to see me coming.
It DOES give him options to attack me in the air, but not really instagib me. I am still getting in and dealing damage.

Please, tell me more about how your no divination spells tell you where the objective is. Or what the objective is. Or that there are any traps in the room with the objective. Or, hell, that the objective is less than 720ft away from the entrance.

I already stated: invisible familiar.

It's interesting that they have to "somehow track him down", but you assume the Sorcerer will always know where you are. The Beguiler has Gather Information, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, locate creature, arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and see invisibility. The Sorcerer has, what, exactly? Some obscure creature with a divination SLA?

Might want to check the range of those spells. And also the movement range of fly. Dimension door + fly gets you well out of range.

Did you know that the Beguiler can use Wizard scrolls? She can also use Cleric scrolls. And Druid scrolls. And Trapsmith scrolls. It turns out UMD is pretty good.

It's honestly kind of amazing how consistently you've managed to line up points where the Beguiler is just better than you. You're almost making our points better than we could.

Good luck with that dc at 8th level. And since you cast off int, the likelihood you have a good enough cha stat to pull it off is pretty slim. Especially when most guides recommend you dump it. Just with a lvl 1 scroll, you're looking at a 13+ on the die. Charisma will lower that of course, but each spell level causes the dc to go up by 2. Even having an 18 base (unlikely) only makes it a 9 on the die. So congrats: you can waste a round half the time to cast a 1st level spell. Yeah, I know you can build to get really high checks. But most people? Don't.

My sorcerer build, however, has seen play and I KNOW it works.

eggynack

2019-04-24, 07:56 PM

Might want to check the range of those spells. And also the movement range of fly. Dimension door + fly gets you well out of range.
True. See invisible's "you" range is way too small for dealing with an invisible sorcerer at a distance. I have no idea how the beguiler's going to deal with this wily foe.

Cosi

2019-04-24, 08:02 PM

I already stated: invisible familiar.

Congratulations, you've figured out how to lose 1600 XP. And you didn't even end up with some useless magic item you have to throw away afterwards. This is an achievement in tactics, and I commend you.

Luccan

2019-04-24, 08:39 PM

Does a sorcerer's ability to customize their spells known make them significantly more powerful than the fixed list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage)?

Well, it depends. Sorcerer is probably better than Warmage, because the Warmage is very limited. You would need to select spells more limited and less powerful for your Sorcerer to be worse, which is unlikely to happen, and otherwise the potential for more versatile spells is just better. Warmages don't really get a significant enough boost to their spell list to significantly challenge all but the most poorly played Sorcerers.

Beguilers and Dread Necromancers are different. Beguilers get access to some solid Illusion and Enchantment spells as a baseline, plus their expanded selection leaves them with even more powerful options. They beat out Sorcerers in their niche, I would say, and it's a decent enough niche for that to be no mean feat. Of course they're nearly useless against certain enemies, so that's where a Sorcerer knowing Polymorph or even just Fireball starts to shine.

Dread Necromancers, on the other hand, have minionmancy. They probably do necromancy better than Sorcerers, which mainly means they do having a skeleton army better. At TO levels, this means very little, because while the Sorcerer might get it later, he has other things to fall back on (like his army of outsiders, spells that don't rely on having usable corpses, etc). However, in most games the DN gets their own little army, which is a fair enough trade for the Sorc's spellcasting. I'd say it works out like this:

DN: I have an army
Sorcerer: I have Shapechange, Plane Shift, and Meteor Swarm

eggynack

2019-04-24, 09:11 PM

Of course they're nearly useless against certain enemies, so that's where a Sorcerer knowing Polymorph or even just Fireball starts to shine.

This is untrue, as I've previously noted. The beguiler list natively has a ton of variety, including plentiful ways of dealing with mind-affecting foes, as well as foes with multiple vision modes.

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 09:17 PM

True. See invisible's "you" range is way too small for dealing with an invisible sorcerer at a distance. I have no idea how the beguiler's going to deal with this wily foe.

Yeah, check the duration on that. You get a little over an hour. You COULD blow through most of your daily spell slots keeping it up all day in which case, kudos.. You've wasted most of your spell slots and can no longer do anything. And since you're the ONLY one who can do anything, good luck. Now if it were glitterdust or something even remotely useful to tell your other party members where I was, it might be a good move. As is, you're about as useful as an alarm spell.

eggynack

2019-04-24, 09:22 PM

Yeah, check the duration on that. You get a little over an hour. You COULD blow through most of your daily spell slots keeping it up all day in which case, kudos.. You've wasted most of your spell slots and can no longer do anything. And since you're the ONLY one who can do anything, good luck. Now if it were glitterdust or something even remotely useful to tell your other party members where I was, it might be a good move. As is, you're about as useful as an alarm spell.
Invisibility lasts a tenth as long, and seemingly constitutes your only means of being a threat. Also, glitterdust is literally right there on the beguiler list. Also also, I have no idea when this became a party thing.

Calthropstu

2019-04-24, 09:23 PM

Well, it depends. Sorcerer is probably better than Warmage, because the Warmage is very limited. You would need to select spells more limited and less powerful for your Sorcerer to be worse, which is unlikely to happen, and otherwise the potential for more versatile spells is just better. Warmages don't really get a significant enough boost to their spell list to significantly challenge all but the most poorly played Sorcerers.

Beguilers and Dread Necromancers are different. Beguilers get access to some solid Illusion and Enchantment spells as a baseline, plus their expanded selection leaves them with even more powerful options. They beat out Sorcerers in their niche, I would say, and it's a decent enough niche for that to be no mean feat. Of course they're nearly useless against certain enemies, so that's where a Sorcerer knowing Polymorph or even just Fireball starts to shine.

Dread Necromancers, on the other hand, have minionmancy. They probably do necromancy better than Sorcerers, which mainly means they do having a skeleton army better. At TO levels, this means very little, because while the Sorcerer might get it later, he has other things to fall back on (like his army of outsiders, spells that don't rely on having usable corpses, etc). However, in most games the DN gets their own little army, which is a fair enough trade for the Sorc's spellcasting. I'd say it works out like this:

DN: I have an army
Sorcerer: I have Shapechange, Plane Shift, and Meteor Swarm

More like:
Sorcerer: I have my own private demiplane and am not actually here. I am appearing to you as an astral projection. I have shapechange and can become just about anything that has ever been, and can wish your army away with a wave of my hand. I can then summon my own planar army and launch attacks on the entire multiverse.
DN: but... my army... :'(

Jack_Simth

2019-04-24, 09:24 PM

Guys, attacking each other gets nobody anywhere and just brings the ire of the moderators. Keep it to attacking the arguments, please.I suppose I should just drop it at this point.

Covenant12

2019-04-24, 09:26 PM

Beguilers and Dread Necromancers are different. Beguilers get access to some solid Illusion and Enchantment spells as a baseline, plus their expanded selection leaves them with even more powerful options. They beat out Sorcerers in their niche, I would say, and it's a decent enough niche for that to be no mean feat. Of course they're nearly useless against certain enemies, so that's where a Sorcerer knowing Polymorph or even just Fireball starts to shineBeguilers really don't lack against much of anything, though. They excel at illusion and enchantment, but when those don't work they have some of the best 1st level spells, glitterdust (SR:No AoE), and haste. 4th level adds solid fog, good immediate action spells, I don't see how a sorcerer competes until he gets several abusable 4-6 level spells. (celerity, polymorph, etc) And That's push 12th level or more.

Dread Necros handle undead very well, debuff/save or die stuff not immune mental effects, and minionmancy everything else (golems, plants). And both of these classes have real class features that aren't spells. Beguiler consistently has more skills than the rogue for christ's sake, and a fantastic list.

Dread Necromancers, on the other hand, have minionmancy. They probably do necromancy better than Sorcerers, which mainly means they do having a skeleton army better. At TO levels, this means very little, because while the Sorcerer might get it later, he has other things to fall back on (like his army of outsiders, spells that don't rely on having usable corpses, etc). However, in most games the DN gets their own little army, which is a fair enough trade for the Sorc's spellcasting. I'd say it works out like this:

DN: I have an army
Sorcerer: I have Shapechange, Plane Shift, and Meteor SwarmYeah, dread necro falls off after 8, I admit. But is scary from 4-8. But when Sorc has Shapechange *or* meteor swarm, Beguiler has dominate monster, foresight, and time stop. Sorc has to put some effort into abusing fairly broken spells to win that. Damn, now I so want to play a beguiler.

Luccan

2019-04-24, 09:30 PM

This is untrue, as I've previously noted. The beguiler list natively has a ton of variety, including plentiful ways of dealing with mind-affecting foes, as well as foes with multiple vision modes.

Actually, looking at their list again, that's fair. Beguilers get to do some stuff I'd totally forgotten that I wouldn't expect from the supposed sneaky mage class. It's actually kind of ridiculous.

Anthrowhale

2019-04-24, 09:54 PM

How do you deal with a group of enemies who have spell resistance or evasion?

Orbs

What about incorporeal enemies?

Take the Planar Sorcerer ACF at level 5.

Can you audible between lines, cones, and bursts?

I'm not clear on the value here. For example, my experience has never included enemies lining up over 120' with friendlies on both sides. Is line really valuable in practice? And is the distinction between a cone and a ball that important?

Can you break objects?

Yes?

Without verbal components?

A rod of silent spell seems good?

What if an enemy has spell resistance, but is out of close range?

Arcane Fusion[True Casting, Fireball] for example gives you a good long range punch.

Where's your battlefield control? What about defensive spells? Save-or-die effects? Do you have spells that you can cast without somatic components?

These all seem like uses of additional spell slots, of which many remain.

What if it's an aquatic battle?

This seems like a good point at low levels for fire spells. An advantage of a sorcerer here is that it's easier for them to not drown.

Warmages are prepared for all these eventualities without even having to use an advanced learning slot—are you?
It seems like we'd need to work it out in more detail.

How about:
Dragonblood Human Sorcerer 20
Feats:
Human: Reserves of Strength
1. Iron Will
3. Quick Recovery
6. Searing Spell
9. Twin Spell
12. Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion]
15. Easy Metamagic[Twin Spell]
18. Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion]

Spells:
1. Power Word:Pain->True Casting, Truestrike, Lesser Orb of Acid, Burning Hands, Grease->Nerve Skitter
2. Wings of Cover, Web, Combust, Alter Self, [Planar Sorcerer Substitution]
3. Fireball, Flashburst, Body Blaze, Stinking Cloud
4. Celerity, Wings of Flurry, Orb of Fire, Greater Invisibility
5. Arcane Fusion, Boreal Wind, Daltim's Fiery Tentacles
6. Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic
7. Arcane Spellsurge, Limited Wish, Greater Teleport
8. Greater Arcane Fusion, Mind Blank, Polymorph Any Object
9. Shapechange, Time Stop, Gate

At level 1, Power Word:Pain is amazing in the early game---much better than warmage has access to.
At level 3, you can use Reserves of Strength to cast a spell at caster level 6 and then recover from the stun as a move action with a good chance next round giving you a 3d8 lesser orb of acid.
At level 4, Combust comes online dealing up to 7d8 damage.
At level 6, you get Fireball and Body Blaze which functions as a more adaptable wall of fire.
At level 8, you get to act twice in a round via Celerity (immediate->standard action) + Quick recovery (move) + standard action.
At level 10, you get Arcane Fusion giving you two spells for the price of one.
At level 12, your familiar starts casting adding another spell to the combat.
At level 14, Arcane Spellsurge comes online as well as Twin Arcane Fusion.
At level 16, you get Greater Arcane Fusion for yet more spell action.
At level 18, you get Twin Greater Arcane Fusion out of a 9th level slot (remember, Easy Metamagic is a metamagic feat...)

For levels 1-4 Power Word:Pain is pretty amazing.
At levels 3-7, RoS is great.
At level 8+, It's unfair to the Warmage.

Cosi

2019-04-24, 10:06 PM

Dread Necromancers, on the other hand, have minionmancy. They probably do necromancy better than Sorcerers, which mainly means they do having a skeleton army better. At TO levels, this means very little,

At TO levels they get planar binding and can break the game. Yes, they don't also get shapechange and ice assassin, but once you've gotten your SLA wish it doesn't matter what your class was.

(like his army of outsiders, spells that don't rely on having usable corpses, etc)

I hate to repeat myself, but you realize the Dread Necromancer gets planar binding, right?

For levels 1-4 Power Word:Pain is pretty amazing.

power word pain is actually pretty bad for PCs. It'll kill anything eventually, but you generally spend more resources on whatever your skirmish tactic is than it would cost you to just kill things.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-04-24, 10:27 PM

Beguilers are probably the second most solid class in the game behind druids. Without much work at all they already cover a lot of ground. In terms of overall utility and holding optimization level constant the beguiler probably wins out over the sorcerer until higher levels, or earlier if you get too close to TO. But there is a turning point. The beguiler's coverage of the best wizard spells gets increasingly spotty every level, and it really starts showing once you get to the 5th level spell list. Before that point you have a solid array of buffs, debuffs, no-save effects, and stuff that isn't mind affecting. At 5th and beyond you still get a lot of utility and mind-affecting but you don't get as much of the rest. That means the beguiler has to start working a lot harder to add those sort of effects to his repertoire with the same build resources that a Sorcerer can spend getting reallllly good at a few things.

This leads to the main irony of this thread: People are tut-tutting a beguiler for being a specialist whereas the sorcerer is supposedly a generalist, but the beguiler is built to generalize and a sorcerer is built to specialize. The most obvious optimization benefit of a fixed list caster is its synergy with effects that add to the spell list, leading to a versatile generalist who will rarely blow you away in one action but will always have something very useful to do. The obvious optimization benefit of a sorcerer is his special sorcerer-only tricks. These can turn him into an absolutely devastating 1- or 2-trick pony who can wreck adventures with ease but who can also be hard-countered by a spiteful DM.

*Ironically, I agree that Dimension Door is a wonderful spell, but for very different reasons. It's not the individual-use contrived attrition scenarios that make it so good. It's the teamwork benefits that make it an incredible pick and something I'd make a build priority to get on my list (e.g. through the Travel Domain) were I playing a beguiler. It is probably the most effective escape tool pound-for-pound in the game, a massively underrated skill when you're facing truly dangerous enemies. More importantly, though, it allows ambushes to happen. It obviates the classic skill monkey problem of scouting an enemy and then having the plate-clad idiot ruin it, because now you can 'port the plate-clad idiot right next to the enemy and have him get a surprise round along with all the other stealth neophytes.

Grim Reader

2019-04-25, 02:49 AM

I can’t imagine any competent beguiler/DN NOT expanding their list. The only good reason not to take list expanding feats is if you are using those feats to qualify for list expanding PRCs. So the only sorcerer I would compare with the fixed list is a sorcerer without the opti-fu to pick their best spells.

The thing is, the resources the Beguiler is using to expand their list (normally into spells the Sorcerer has available) are resources the Sorcerer can also use to expand his available spells. So no advantage accrues. That is why we are discussing the prestige domains and Rainbow Servant, there are readings that give the Beguiler greater returns on investment there. But of course a Sorcerer that does not pick the best spells are obviously going to lag. The Beguiler has a genuine advantage in having a much higher floor.

AFAICT that thread concluded that you couldn't do it.

Actually it went MIA. I logged on one day and it wasn't there. Tried for a couple of days and it didn't show up. I assumed it lost with some downtime. Then more than a year later I was looking for a thread I made, and there it was again. But by then I'd lost a bit of momentum. I'll get back to it but I haven't had the opportunity or the time to get back into the calculations. As far as I remember though, Warmage competency is not a large investment for a high level Sorcerer. Beguiler takes a bit more resources. Dread Necromancer... has spells and abilities that are harder to duplicate. Undead minionmany is not out of reach, though.

This is absolutely true. The Sorcerer side seems to think that the appropriate comparison is a perfectly optimized Sorcerer list versus the standard Beguiler list. That's absurd. If you're even talking about spells like celerity, planar binding, or polymorph, the Beguiler is going to be reaching for Prestige Domains. Or Knowstones. Or Rainbow Servant. Or Apprentice.

I am still wondering if anyone else thinks the Apprentice trick works ?

By RAW, Prestige Domains grant Beguilers all their spells.

Cite? I am not familiar with that rule I think.

Except it's not high level spells. It's high level spell. The Beguiler gets all their 5th level spells at 10th level. The Sorcerer gets one. Sure, you can probably find one that's better than anything on the Beguiler list. But you can't find one that's better than everything on the Beguiler list, and Advanced Learning, and whatever the Beguiler does to expand their list.

Its a process. The Sorcerer keeps getting more top spells and the spells the Beguiler gets keep getting weaker spells. The Beguiler can keep spending resources to expand, but the Sorcerer can expend the same resources.

But when Sorc has Shapechange *or* meteor swarm, Beguiler has dominate monster, foresight, and time stop. Sorc has to put some effort into abusing fairly broken spells to win that.

Genuinely curious here: What does a Beguiler do in a Time Stop?

Gnaeus

2019-04-25, 05:49 AM

The thing is, the resources the Beguiler is using to expand their list (normally into spells the Sorcerer has available) are resources the Sorcerer can also use to expand his available spells. So no advantage accrues. That is why we are discussing the prestige domains and Rainbow Servant, there are readings that give the Beguiler greater returns on investment there. But of course a Sorcerer that does not pick the best spells are obviously going to lag. The Beguiler has a genuine advantage in having a much higher floor.

Actually it went MIA. I logged on one day and it wasn't there. Tried for a couple of days and it didn't show up. I assumed it lost with some downtime. Then more than a year later I was looking for a thread I made, and there it was again. But by then I'd lost a bit of momentum. I'll get back to it but I haven't had the opportunity or the time to get back into the calculations. As far as I remember though, Warmage competency is not a large investment for a high level Sorcerer. Beguiler takes a bit more resources. Dread Necromancer... has spells and abilities that are harder to duplicate. Undead minionmany is not out of reach, though.

I am still wondering if anyone else thinks the Apprentice trick works ?

Cite? I am not familiar with that rule I think.

Its a process. The Sorcerer keeps getting more top spells and the spells the Beguiler gets keep getting weaker spells. The Beguiler can keep spending resources to expand, but the Sorcerer can expend the same resources.

Genuinely curious here: What does a Beguiler do in a Time Stop?

The part that you need to address isn’t just that we can expand our list, it is equivalent optimization. The beguiler/DN doesn’t need to expand their spells known, they need to expand their spell list, which is easier. Arcane Disciple is right there in C Div. You don’t need to be hunting feats in a Dragon magazine article to straight up take travel or summoning domain. Now, again, we can go around forever without result about what equivalent optimization means exactly. And the benefit a sorcerer gets for adding 2 spells known is less than the beguiler gets for adding spells to list. As has been pointed out, he is already a generalist. And ultimately, when we have both expanded our lists to (the spells we want that day) we are back to equality and beguiler still has a better chassis to cast everything from.

A beguiler with Time Stop has 21 ranks of UMD and 18th level WBL. So anything he wants.

Grim Reader

2019-04-25, 06:19 AM

A beguiler with Time Stop has 21 ranks of UMD and 18th level WBL. So anything he wants.

So basically the same as a Rogue or a Fighter who got UMD as a class skill through a feat.

Arcane Disciple is right there in C Div. You don’t need to be hunting feats in a Dragon magazine article to straight up take travel or summoning domain.

C. Div also specifies that spontaneous casters that get access to a domain can only add domain spells when they have the opportunity to chose a new spell known, and get the spell instead of the normal pick. But can cast the spell freely after that, unlike memorization casters. Fixed list casters have a bit of a hard time satisfying that, due to being short of spell picks.

Cosi

2019-04-25, 06:54 AM

This leads to the main irony of this thread: People are tut-tutting a beguiler for being a specialist whereas the sorcerer is supposedly a generalist, but the beguiler is built to generalize and a sorcerer is built to specialize.

I don't think that's quite true. They have different approaches, really. The Sorcerer gets a shorter list of spells, but has much more precision in his choices. Whereas the Beguiler gets way more spells

I am still wondering if anyone else thinks the Apprentice trick works ?

Fortunately, it's Rules as Written, not Rules as Polled. But in any case, the whole Apprentice/Rainbow Servant/Prestige Domain thing is actually not all that important in the grand scheme. It comes up because people insist on making the conversation about a highly optimized Sorcerer, then claiming everything Beguilers do to optimize doesn't count. In a low or mid op situation, the Beguiler is just better, no questions asked (maybe they take, like, Arcane Disciple or something). It's only when people insist on making it about spells like shapechange or polymorph -- which themselves have huge rules ambiguities or DM concerns -- that the tools you're complaining about become necessary.

Cite? I am not familiar with that rule I think.

You would think if you aren't familiar with the interaction between Beguilers and Prestige Domains, you'd spend less time making confident proclamations about it.

The key point isn't actually in Prestige Domains though, it's in Advanced Learning. Most people seem to think Advanced Learning gives the Beguiler an extra spell known. It doesn't. It adds a spell to their list. That automatically makes the spell known. The game doesn't make any distinction between "spells the Beguiler could learn" and "spells the Beguiler knows". Therefore, when Prestige Domains allow the Beguiler to choose new spells, it gets all of them. There's simply no other way for them to work. And, no, "they just don't work" isn't a valid interpretation, as it implies the spells aren't added to the character's class list, which means other spontaneous casters can't learn them.

Its a process. The Sorcerer keeps getting more top spells and the spells the Beguiler gets keep getting weaker spells. The Beguiler can keep spending resources to expand, but the Sorcerer can expend the same resources.

And get less return for them. A Prestige Domain adds spells to the Sorcerer's list. That's basically worthless, because the Sorcerer's list is already full of more good spells then they can learn. It adds spells to a Beguiler's spells known. That's great, because the Beguiler casts spontaneously. This only makes sense if we accept your patently incorrect and completely incoherent interpretation of Prestige Domains and fixed list casters, which has been debunked every time we've had this conversation and (because this apparently matters) other people do not agree with -- for example, that Beguiler handbook I linked has Prestige Domains working.

What does a Beguiler do in a Time Stop?

Delay Spell, probably. Or anything from any domain.

Grim Reader

2019-04-25, 07:37 AM

Fortunately, it's Rules as Written, not Rules as Polled. But in any case, the whole Apprentice/Rainbow Servant/Prestige Domain thing is actually not all that important in the grand scheme. It comes up because people insist on making the conversation about a highly optimized Sorcerer, then claiming everything Beguilers do to optimize doesn't count. In a low or mid op situation, the Beguiler is just better, no questions asked (maybe they take, like, Arcane Disciple or something). It's only when people insist on making it about spells like shapechange or polymorph -- which themselves have huge rules ambiguities or DM concerns -- that the tools you're complaining about become necessary.

Well, to me it is about a Sorcerer making the best spell picks available. I think thats a basic part of what being a Sorcerer is about, and does not constitute high op. On the other hand comparing a Beguiler with 10 levels of a prestige class, extra domains, feats etc to a straight Sorcerer who has not even made the best spell picks... thats obviously going to favor the Beguiler. But if you have to assume that a straight Sorcerer does not even make the best use of his class features to compete...

You would think if you aren't familiar with the interaction between Beguilers and Prestige Domains, you'd spend less time making confident proclamations about it.

The key point isn't actually in Prestige Domains though, it's in Advanced Learning. Most people seem to think Advanced Learning gives the Beguiler an extra spell known. It doesn't. It adds a spell to their list. That automatically makes the spell known.

Its not actually. The point is that Compete Divine specifies that spontaneous Arcane Spellcasters who gain access to a domain, may only add a domain spell when they could add a spell known. And then they can chose to add the domain spell instead. Using a spell pick is an extra cost to getting a domain spell. If you can't pay the cost, you don't get the spell. This is an additional rule governing how spontaneous arcane casters interact with domain spells. And comes as an addition to the Beguiler, Warmage etc rules on spells known/lists.

The only point about Advanced Learning is I believe most DMs would probably allow them to count as getting an additional spell known as a houserule. Otherwise Prestige Domains would be useless to fixed list casters.

The Apprentice trick that I have mentioned relies on taking the Apprentice (spellcaster) feat from the DMG II. You apprentice yourself to a mentor of the same spellcasting class as you. A spontaneous caster gets an additional spell known at first level, and may trade out a spell known for a new one of the same level every time he levels. Cosi believes that this allows a beguiuler to pick a new spell from any list everytime he levels as the feat does not have language restricting the new pick to your class list.

Personally I feel that picking spells known are generally restricted to your class list unless it is specified that you may go offlist.

I am curious what other people think?

Cosi

2019-04-25, 07:45 AM

Well, to me it is about a Sorcerer making the best spell picks available. I think thats a basic part of what being a Sorcerer is about, and does not constitute high op.

Yes, I understand that you are defining "optimization" in a way that includes things the Beguiler does and not things the Sorcerer does. But that's nonsense. We could as easily say that picking feats and PrCs that expand your list is what the Beguiler is about. If you define "optimization" as excluding the largest thing the Sorcerer does to effect their power, you should not expect people to view that as a fair assessment of the Sorcerer's power.

Its not actually. The point is that Compete Divine specifies that spontaneous Arcane Spellcasters who gain access to a domain, may only add a domain spell when they could add a spell known.

Yes. And Beguilers do that whenever a spell becomes available to them to learn. There exist no spells that a Beguiler could learn, but does not know. Since a Prestige Domain gives them spells to learn, it gives them spells known.

The only point about Advanced Learning is I believe most DMs would probably allow them to count as getting an additional spell known as a houserule. Otherwise Prestige Domains would be useless to fixed list casters.

Advanced Learning does not work like that. And if we're assuming what "most DMs" would do, I'll assume that "most DMs" will allow Apprentice, Prestige Domains, and 10/10 Rainbow Servant. And ban polymorph for being confusing and planar binding for being broken. Oh look, when I ignore the rules to make my side win, my side wins. Funny how that works.

Personally I feel that picking spells known are generally restricted to your class list unless it is specified that you may go offlist.

Please, show me the language anywhere in the game that states this. If your argument is that "a spell" means "a spell from your list", that breaks Advanced Learning, because everything about it is phrased as restrictions on "a spell", which would imply that the only eligible spells are ones already on the Beguiler list. Seriously, the fact that Advanced Learning exists and is phrased the way it is demolishes pretty much every argument people want to advance about how [thing that obviously works for fixed-list casters and makes them very good] doesn't actually work for fixed-list casters.

Cerefel

2019-04-25, 09:01 AM

Please, show me the language anywhere in the game that states this. If your argument is that "a spell" means "a spell from your list", that breaks Advanced Learning, because everything about it is phrased as restrictions on "a spell", which would imply that the only eligible spells are ones already on the Beguiler list. Seriously, the fact that Advanced Learning exists and is phrased the way it is demolishes pretty much every argument people want to advance about how [thing that obviously works for fixed-list casters and makes them very good] doesn't actually work for fixed-list casters.

The burden of proof here should be on the claim that the apprentice feat lets you pick spells off of other spell lists as there is nothing in the feat's text to support that

Gnaeus

2019-04-25, 09:40 AM

So basically the same as a Rogue or a Fighter who got UMD as a class skill through a feat.

C. Div also specifies that spontaneous casters that get access to a domain can only add domain spells when they have the opportunity to chose a new spell known, and get the spell instead of the normal pick. But can cast the spell freely after that, unlike memorization casters. Fixed list casters have a bit of a hard time satisfying that, due to being short of spell picks.

Arcane Devotee says you learn the spells as normal for your class. Normal for a fixed list caster is you know all the spells on your list. So no problem whatsoever. But this isn’t so much an argument that needs to be resolved here other than to say that what equivalent optimization means varies based on what your group thinks is normal. Even here on the board we don’t agree. Is there magic mart? Because that helps a Beguiler more than a sorcerer. How does rainbow servant work? Is a kobold a true dragon. We don’t have to figure those things out in order to say, as I said, that what equivalent optimization means at your table will change the comparison.

Yes. He gets exactly the same benefit as a fighter who gets UMD as a class feat if the fighter can cast 9th level spells on a list with Time Stop (and if the fighter were a 6+int int focused skill monkey who isn’t giving up anything by maxing UMD). Except that the beguiler also has a spell list full of buffs they could also cast under time stop. Except that the beguiler could be using advanced learning for shadow conjuration. Assuming that we have a minimal op beguiler who hasn’t expanded his list

Karl Aegis

2019-04-25, 10:32 AM

Wait, why does a warmage need Advanced Learning to add to their Spells Known? It gets put on its list and they can cast the spell, no shenanigans involved. That... doesn't give them a free pass to cast spells on their list without knowing the spell first. If the crux of your argument is a houseruled class feature, it's not a good argument.

The Kool

2019-04-25, 10:54 AM

Troacctid

2019-04-25, 01:11 PM

I'm not following your assumption that the Warmage doesn't automatically know every spell on their list.
They only know the ones they're high enough level to cast.

Actually it went MIA. I logged on one day and it wasn't there. Tried for a couple of days and it didn't show up. I assumed it lost with some downtime. Then more than a year later I was looking for a thread I made, and there it was again. But by then I'd lost a bit of momentum. I'll get back to it but I haven't had the opportunity or the time to get back into the calculations. As far as I remember though, Warmage competency is not a large investment for a high level Sorcerer. Beguiler takes a bit more resources. Dread Necromancer... has spells and abilities that are harder to duplicate. Undead minionmany is not out of reach, though.
Everyone else in the thread is saying it was unsuccessful. By my reckoning, they are correct to say so.

Orbs

Take the Planar Sorcerer ACF at level 5.

I'm not clear on the value here. For example, my experience has never included enemies lining up over 120' with friendlies on both sides. Is line really valuable in practice? And is the distinction between a cone and a ball that important?

Yes?

A rod of silent spell seems good?

Arcane Fusion[True Casting, Fireball] for example gives you a good long range punch.

These all seem like uses of additional spell slots, of which many remain.

This seems like a good point at low levels for fire spells. An advantage of a sorcerer here is that it's easier for them to not drown.

It seems like we'd need to work it out in more detail.

How about:
Dragonblood Human Sorcerer 20
Feats:
Human: Reserves of Strength
1. Iron Will
3. Quick Recovery
6. Searing Spell
9. Twin Spell
12. Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion]
15. Easy Metamagic[Twin Spell]
18. Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion]

Spells:
1. Power Word:Pain->True Casting, Truestrike, Lesser Orb of Acid, Burning Hands, Grease->Nerve Skitter
2. Wings of Cover, Web, Combust, Alter Self, [Planar Sorcerer Substitution]
3. Fireball, Flashburst, Body Blaze, Stinking Cloud
4. Celerity, Wings of Flurry, Orb of Fire, Greater Invisibility
5. Arcane Fusion, Boreal Wind, Daltim's Fiery Tentacles
6. Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic
7. Arcane Spellsurge, Limited Wish, Greater Teleport
8. Greater Arcane Fusion, Mind Blank, Polymorph Any Object
9. Shapechange, Time Stop, Gate

At level 1, Power Word:Pain is amazing in the early game---much better than warmage has access to.
At level 3, you can use Reserves of Strength to cast a spell at caster level 6 and then recover from the stun as a move action with a good chance next round giving you a 3d8 lesser orb of acid.
At level 4, Combust comes online dealing up to 7d8 damage.
At level 6, you get Fireball and Body Blaze which functions as a more adaptable wall of fire.
At level 8, you get to act twice in a round via Celerity (immediate->standard action) + Quick recovery (move) + standard action.
At level 10, you get Arcane Fusion giving you two spells for the price of one.
At level 12, your familiar starts casting adding another spell to the combat.
At level 14, Arcane Spellsurge comes online as well as Twin Arcane Fusion.
At level 16, you get Greater Arcane Fusion for yet more spell action.
At level 18, you get Twin Greater Arcane Fusion out of a 9th level slot (remember, Easy Metamagic is a metamagic feat...)

For levels 1-4 Power Word:Pain is pretty amazing.
At levels 3-7, RoS is great.
At level 8+, It's unfair to the Warmage.
This is pretty good, but parts of it are wrong. You don't have Combust here until level 9, for example, because you took Wings of Cover, Planar Sorcerer, and Web before it. You don't get your first AoE damage until level 5. You don't get your first BFC spell until level 7. I don't think you start pulling ahead of the warmage until around level 10. Even then, until level 18, you're kind of a one-trick pony—you have better action economy than a warmage, but you're not as versatile.

Anthrowhale

2019-04-25, 09:20 PM

This is pretty good, but parts of it are wrong.

Oh, I wasn't optimizing the order---let me do that and reoptimize spell choice a bit for the first 10 levels which is where all the action is.

(Edits to highlight divergence from the warmage list. Bold = not on list, not available via advance learning. Italics = not on list, available through advanced learning.)

Level 1: 1. Power Word: Pain (Close, mind-affecting, 35), 1. Hail of Stone (Medium, AoE, 10, SR:No)
Level 3: 1. Grease (Close, AoE, Reflex-or-Suck, SR:No)
Level 4: 2. Combust (Touch, Fire, 31.5)
Level 5: 2. [Planar Sorcerer], 1. Raging Flame
Level 6: 3. Fireball (Long, Fire, AoE, 40.5 Refl/2), 1. True Strike (replacing PW:P)
Level 7: 3. Body Blaze (Wall, Fire, 19) 2. Glitterdust (Medium, AoE, Will-or-Suck, SR:No) 1. True Casting
Level 8: 4. Celerity
Level 9: 4. Wings of Flurry (Party-friendly AoE 45.5 Refl/2 + Refl-or-suck) 3. Stinking Cloud (Medium, AoE, Fort-or-Suck, SR:No) 2. Alter Self
Level 10: 5. Arcane Fusion

You have Refl, Will, and Fort AoE SR: No, Save-or-sucks starting 3 levels earlier than a warmage.
You have a wall of fire equivalent a level earlier than the warmage.
At every level you can crank out potent damage. 1-4: 35 (PW:P), 5: 44, 6: 49.5, 7: 55 (RoS Combust in Raging Flame) 8: 104.5, 9:115.5 via Celerity[Combust] + Quick Recovery + RoS Combust in Raging Flame.
You also have True Casting and Alter Self providing some additional abilities.

You don't get your first AoE damage until level 5.

Level 1 now.

You don't get your first BFC spell until level 7.

Now, There is Grease at level 3. You also get a "wall" a level earlier.

I don't think you start pulling ahead of the warmage until around level 10.

At level 8 the damage per round seems to pull noticeably ahead as discussed above.

Even then, until level 18, you're kind of a one-trick pony—you have better action economy than a warmage, but you're not as versatile.
I disagree with this. Other spells on list (True Casting, Alter Self, Greater Invisibility, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic, Limited Wish, Greater Teleport, etc...) provide great versatility.

But, maybe you mean 'versatile damage'? Since all spells do half damage as Force and Searing Spell is taken at level 6, the relatively few damaging spells hit hard reliably obviating most need for alternate types of damage.

Segev

2019-04-26, 10:02 AM

One of the reasons Sorcerer is considered inferior to both Dread Necromancer and Wizard for minionmancy is that the minionmancy spells are reasonably situational and are generally downtime-cast effects. I agree with this assessment. (Dread Necromancers, we assume, get them without "losing" any spells known count, based on the assumption that they were not designed with a maximum number of spells they could know so much as a theme in mind for choosing their fixed list.)

But let's say you wanted to play a sorcerer focused on these themes. Is there a way to get the high-situational and/or properly-downtime spells without sacrificing valuable versatility? Staves come to mind, though this is an external dependency on being able to find/buy them. Limited wish and its big brother can do it, but are insanely expensive (700 or 5000 exp a pop). Theurging with cleric can get you prepped spells. Ultimate Magus just says "I'll be a wizard, too!"

Are there other options?

Anthrowhale

2019-04-26, 11:18 AM

Are there other options?
Mother Cyst gives excellent minionmancy for anything you can capture-not-kill.

Segev

2019-04-26, 11:20 AM

Mother Cyst gives excellent minionmancy for anything you can capture-not-kill.

Oh, good point. And it's one feat for 10 spells. Choosing command undead as a sorcerer spell is a little niche, but not overly so, and very effective as a spontaneously-available one. Use that on any skulking cysts you generate and you can have them spread your influence remotely.

Anthrowhale

2019-04-26, 11:44 AM

Oh, good point. And it's one feat for 10 spells. Choosing command undead as a sorcerer spell is a little niche, but not overly so, and very effective as a spontaneously-available one. Use that on any skulking cysts you generate and you can have them spread your influence remotely.

Also note the good interaction with Versatile Spellcaster so a dominate person effect becomes available at L6 and a dominate monster effect at L12.

Segev

2019-04-26, 12:49 PM

Also note the good interaction with Versatile Spellcaster so a dominate person effect becomes available at L6 and a dominate monster effect at L12.

Please elaborate. How's this work?

Anthrowhale

2019-04-26, 01:10 PM

Please elaborate. How's this work?

Versatile spellcaster allows you to cast any spell you know of level n using two slots of level n-1. Mother Cyst grants access to all 10 spells immediately upon acquiring the feat. You can cast these spells just like any other spell known. Hence, at level 6 you can use 2x L3 spell slots to cast Necrotic Domination.

Obviously, you can't do this often given limited top-level slots and the need to force a double save failure (Necrotic Cyst + Necrotic Domination) makes it iffy in combat. Nevertheless, it's a very potent effect, particularly given that it is not mind-affecting, not subject to protection from evil, and not typically available until level 9 or 10.

Segev

2019-04-26, 01:31 PM

Versatile spellcaster allows you to cast any spell you know of level n using two slots of level n-1. Mother Cyst grants access to all 10 spells immediately upon acquiring the feat. You can cast these spells just like any other spell known. Hence, at level 6 you can use 2x L3 spell slots to cast Necrotic Domination.

Obviously, you can't do this often given limited top-level slots and the need to force a double save failure (Necrotic Cyst + Necrotic Domination) makes it iffy in combat. Nevertheless, it's a very potent effect, particularly given that it is not mind-affecting, not subject to protection from evil, and not typically available until level 9 or 10.

Ah! Yes, that makes much more sense. I was wondering how command undead led to that, when you were referring to the Necrotic spells. Makes more sense.

And the way you try to make this work in combat is by having those stealthy Skulking Cysts going all around and infecting every sleeping party they can find in the nearby area with Necrotic Cysts.

Come to think of it, that'd be a pretty good plot hook: somebody identifies a strange disease infecting a town. The symptom is this growth somewhere on the body that is mildly painful to the touch. It's hard to get people to take it too seriously since it doesn't seem to make many people (save those prone to psychosomatic drama) feel actually ill, but at least one quest-giver is quite concerned.

Covenant12

2019-04-27, 02:22 PM

(snipped)
But let's say you wanted to play a sorcerer focused on these themes. Is there a way to get the high-situational and/or properly-downtime spells without sacrificing valuable versatility? Staves come to mind, though this is an external dependency on being able to find/buy them. Limited wish and its big brother can do it, but are insanely expensive (700 or 5000 exp a pop). Theurging with cleric can get you prepped spells. Ultimate Magus just says "I'll be a wizard, too!"

Are there other options?Runestaves are pretty much designed for that. Not cheap, but by 15 or so a sorcerer could have one for downtime undead creation, and another for general use. Magic Item Compendium. And sorcerers don't have to argue with the DM how UMD works with runestaves, beguilers will.

(ouch. wasn't kidding about not cheap. Statement stands, a level 15 sorcerer has that option.)

Mato

2019-04-28, 05:07 PM

Only a website like GitP could spend four pages arguing the merits of unneeded duplications over the freedom of choice in a debate centered around utility and power.

The sorcerer is superior to the dread necromancer, beguiler, and warmage. The niches the focused casters cut out for them selves suffer from the problem of casting them into that role. Like the beguiler's spell list is focused on mind-affecting attacks that allow will saves and spell resistance checks to ignore them, highly limiting his ability to fight several hundreds of printed monsters. The warmage does have some nice save-or-dies and control type spells, but his choices in damage are often sub par to other printed choices. And the dread necromancer is based around fighting with an army but it's army is limited to a few creature types and without their most useful traits.

I'm not saying you can't build around mitigating their weaknesses with a runestaff, advanced learning, or waiting until the 16th level of the game to prove how great the rainbow servant prestigious class is. But instead what I'm saying is you can put less effort into a sorcerer and end up with a better result. And in the short run, that always means those focused casters are investing resources in playing catch up while the sorcerer is investing his resources in reaching even further.

We can actually kind of start this off with a core concept of min-maxing. There is where you trim off the useless traits in order to maximize the useful ones. It's more than just customization, like the dread necromancer may learn black tentacles and the beguiler may learn solid fog. And nothing can take away how great these spells are. But the sorcerer can choose either one and does have to commit to the false dilemma of having to choose one of them. For example, you don't need the warmage's 20ish direct damage spells anymore than you need the beguiler's 20ish save-or-suck spells. You only need one of each. So you could replace the beguiler's dominate person & dominate monster, the dread necromancer's summon undead & plague of undead, as well as the warmage's animated dead & create undead spells with a single spell called ice assassin. You'll also find most of the focused caster lists are only relevant at key levels, like you will never use the beguiler's color spray, hypnotism, sleep, or whelm spells after the 5th level so they might as well not exist for 75% of the game. And doubt you'll even use all four of those trying to reach level 5 as well.

The other end is of course optimization. A dread necromancer and warmage won't learn freedom of movement and a beguiler never learns protection from evil and all three of them will never know how useful friendly fire can be. Planar bubble is the greatest spell for extra actions, but none of the focused casters have native access (not even a warmage with eclectic learning). Frostfell is arguably one of the best save or die spells ever printed but it's also off limits to them as well. It's hard to pick the best blasting spell but arcane fusion isn't even dedicated to that and it is probably number one on most people's lists. Polymorph has more abuse in it than pun-pun, since with assume supernatural ability it allows you to be pun-pun afterall, but a focused caster needs to spend their limited funding to obtain something the sorcerer takes for granted. Small tangent, but do remember how psionic power forced dream opened the minds of many optimizers about the abuse that limited wish can do?

Most debates comes down to one very very very limited idea: The sorcerer can't be better than all of the focused casters at once. Well besides the fact he can, how things play out is pretty typical: The sorcerer can easily learn all the key spells that make a warmage a warmage, just as they can easily learn all the spells that make a beguiler a beguiler or make a dread necromancer a dread necromancer, with enough room to start picking up another class's area. Like you made your sorcerer function like a debuffing/crowd-controlling/direct-damage warmage to demonstrate how much better a sorcerer is when cast in the same role. But someone else whom have personally convinced them selves that the beguiler is better than the warmage will just hop in and say your sorcerer must suck because of that. And if you retrain the sorcerer (you don't even need a new character) to be a better beguiler than the beguiler, that warmage guy comes around again. This kind of argument focuses on the poor equivocation that the sorcerer is as bad as X. The unproven false premise that Y is >X. And several incorrect attributions such as how the sorcerer doesn't have the room for other cool stuff, can't pick better options in the same field, or that the X class is actually the par to consider. People will maneuver one class in front of another demanding that the sorcerer is better than all of them simultaneously while refusing examples that can achieve such (ie a sorcerer creates an ice assassin of each). But the sorcerer doesn't have to be better than all of them at once, even through he could.

The sorcerer honestly doesn't even have to be better either. Like let's focus on minions, the dread necromancer has turn undead and an increased hit die limit with animate dead, but even the beguiler can commit to using dominate spells to control just as many minions. If they were to be pitted against each other they would just turn into a minion grinder. But if a beguiler fought another beguiler they could attempt to dominate each other minions just like a dread necromancer could attempt to turn/control his opponent's minions. Now let's look at the sorcerer, he doesn't animate as many zombies as the dread necromancer and he has better things to do than dedicated as many spell slots on dominating a town as the beguiler. But he can utilize both, bringing his total minion count to around the same as both of them and in doing so his minions are much more diverse. He can employ his undead against a beguiler without fear of losing them just as he can employ dominated/bound outsiders and elementals against the dread necromancer, but he can also attempt to control/dominate their minions as well. This diversity not only gives far more options, but it also turns large crippling weaknesses into tiny set backs. Like imagine putting all your eggs into stealth, divinations, and mind-affecting attacks. All the divination spells in the world can't help you if the lich throws his phylactery inside a magnificent mansion, you would be as useless as a fighter except it's a spellcaster's job to deal with problems like this.

Covenant12

2019-04-28, 10:36 PM

And at level 20, prepping for epic, sorcerer is fantastic. And better than the fixed-list casters, I agree. But he has to get to that level.

Level 8 I'd take beguiler or dread necro over sorcerer every day and twice on sundays. First, they get d6 hps, light armor, and actual class features. Sorcerer gets 1 level 4 spell. Not all of them, 1. Beguiler gets solid fog, greater invis, greater mirror image, and charm monster. Polymorph is utterly fantastic, breakable, and arguably broken. But better than all of those together? Better enough than more hps, and a ton of skills? I don't see how. Dread necro gets fear, an auto-fear incorporeal familiar, and an army or two. Plus is a ton tankier.

By level 12 a sorcerer has multiple 3, 4, 5th level spells. And with a lot of knowledge and effort can be fantastic. Before that the limited spell selection is brutal. At low levels fixed-list casters add far more to the party than sorcerer (ok, maybe not warmage), and are far and away more new-player friendly.

eggynack

2019-04-28, 11:28 PM

The sorcerer is superior to the dread necromancer, beguiler, and warmage. The niches the focused casters cut out for them selves suffer from the problem of casting them into that role. Like the beguiler's spell list is focused on mind-affecting attacks that allow will saves and spell resistance checks to ignore them, highly limiting his ability to fight several hundreds of printed monsters.
This would be a damning criticism of beguilers were it remotely true. Beguilers have tons of powerful spells that are not mind-affecting at all. I've listed them extensively a few times. Spells like silent image, invisibility, glitterdust, glibness, haste, solid fog, and a ton of others are literally right there.

And the dread necromancer is based around fighting with an army but it's army is limited to a few creature types and without their most useful traits.
This would be a damning criticism were it remotely true. Seriously, their spell list is so broad. So few of their spells are straight up army generation. What are you talking about?

There is where you trim off the useless traits in order to maximize the useful ones. It's more than just customization, like the dread necromancer may learn black tentacles and the beguiler may learn solid fog. And nothing can take away how great these spells are. But the sorcerer can choose either one and does have to commit to the false dilemma of having to choose one of them.
Beguiler learns solid fog and also ten other spells. Dread necromancers learn black tentacles and twelve other spells. Sorcerers, when they first get access to fourths, can "choose either one", but then they have to stop choosing, because that's their spell list. And then they get a second spell with which to compete with all those other spells. And then fifths happen.

Most debates comes down to one very very very limited idea: The sorcerer can't be better than all of the focused casters at once.
That's not the idea that I've ever seen the debate come to. Like, Cal was weirdly claiming that the sorcerer can accomplish that, and it was silly, but this is a truly bizarre strawman. Most debates come down to the one idea that beguilers are better than sorcerers at about half the level range, after which point the sorcerer pulls ahead, and then it equalizes when the beguiler gets ice assassin. The dread necromancer does similar, except they're probably better at fewer levels, and those levels are up-shifted. Few claim the warmage is better than the sorcerer.

Troacctid

2019-04-29, 03:53 AM

🙋 I'm happy to claim that the warmage is better than the sorcerer at specifically the job warmage is trying to do, at least until relatively high levels.

Level 1: 1. Power Word: Pain (Close, mind-affecting, 35), 1. Hail of Stone (Medium, AoE, 10, SR:No)
Level 3: 1. Grease (Close, AoE, Reflex-or-Suck, SR:No)
Level 4: 2. Combust (Touch, Fire, 31.5)
Level 5: 2. [Planar Sorcerer], 1. Raging Flame
Level 6: 3. Fireball (Long, Fire, AoE, 40.5 Refl/2), 1. True Strike (replacing PW:P)
Level 7: 3. Body Blaze (Wall, Fire, 19) 2. Glitterdust (Medium, AoE, Will-or-Suck, SR:No) 1. True Casting
Level 8: 4. Celerity
Level 9: 4. Wings of Flurry (Party-friendly AoE 45.5 Refl/2 + Refl-or-suck) 3. Stinking Cloud (Medium, AoE, Fort-or-Suck, SR:No) 2. Alter Self
Level 10: 5. Arcane Fusion
Like, look how hard this sorcerer has to try just to even stay on par with a warmage in the blasting game. And I think the warmage is still better! PWP is good, but if it's your main trick, then you have the same problem people criticize the beguiler for, except, like, for real. And you've got arcane fusion going, but you apparently forgot to take orb of fire to go with it, so, like, what are you even doing? True strike + combust? Seems inefficient. True casting + wings of flurry? Like, okay, wings of flurry is great, but I can't help feeling a bit underwhelmed here. Meanwhile, your BFC is slower and weaker than the warmage's, and you somehow managed to have even less noncombat utility. It's kind of embarrassing, actually? 🤷

Anthrowhale

2019-04-29, 07:14 AM

🙋 I'm happy to claim that the warmage is better than the sorcerer at specifically the job warmage is trying to do, at least until relatively high levels.

It's not clear to me that we can agree, but it would help if you can specify a build to compare with. Maybe you have a trick I don't know? Or maybe there is some reconciling of possibilities into actuality that would help?

Like, look how hard this sorcerer has to try just to even stay on par with a warmage in the blasting game.

To me, it looks like the warmage is subpar in just about all dimensions.

PWP is good, but if it's your main trick, then you have the same problem people criticize the beguiler for, except, like, for real.

a) I think you are underrating PW:P a bit. The heavy majority of opponents are vulnerable to PW:P at level 1. In that common situation, the warmage lacks any ability to inflict anything like 35 damage against a single opponent with a spell at level 1.

b) I think you are also underrating RoS HoS's complementarity. A no-save expected 10 AE damage at level 1 is pretty good, exceeding what typical warmages can do even when targeting a single opponent.

In the early game, the warmage looks relatively ineffective.

And you've got arcane fusion going, but you apparently forgot to take orb of fire to go with it, so, like, what are you even doing? True strike + combust? Seems inefficient.

It's actually more efficient than an Orb of fire. Combust does d8/level while Orb of fire only does d6/level. Combust is a quite potent damage dealer if you aren't familiar with it.

In many cases Combust + Raging Flame is even better given the ease of a touch attack. Of course, you only need one Raging Flame per combat, so I'm internally debating swapping Grease for Lesser Orb of Fire at level 10 when Wings of Flurry is online for an alternate refl-or-suck.

True casting + wings of flurry? Like, okay, wings of flurry is great, but I can't help feeling a bit underwhelmed here.

The warmage lacks any access to party-friendly AoE by default as far as I know.

Meanwhile, your BFC is slower and weaker than the warmage's, and you somehow managed to have even less noncombat utility. It's kind of embarrassing, actually? 🤷
This is perplexing to me. Are we looking at the same Warmage spell list? Does grease not count as BFC to you? What about Body Blaze? Body Blaze does not precisely replicate Wall of Fire, but it's at least comparable---more adaptable but somewhat more difficult to deploy.

Gnaeus

2019-04-29, 08:56 AM

a) I think you are underrating PW:P a bit. The heavy majority of opponents are vulnerable to PW:P at level 1. In that common situation, the warmage lacks any ability to inflict anything like 35 damage against a single opponent with a spell at level 1.

b) I think you are also underrating RoS HoS's complementarity. A no-save expected 10 AE damage at level 1 is pretty good, exceeding what typical warmages can do even when targeting a single opponent.

I think you are overrating it quite a bit. 35 damage would be nice, but you are doing 3.5 per round. Most things can kill your unarmored 4+con self before they die. Thats without worrying about things like skeletons that are immune.

Re HoS are we even looking at the same spell? The one I see does 1d4 damage at level 1. It’s a 5’radius, so if you are super lucky you could get a couple of tightly packed enemies. And then it requires an attack roll. Not a ranged touch attack. I mean yeah, if you can hit 4 things because they are so tightly clusteeed and then make 4 attack rolls that’s 10 averagedamage. But that’s like imagining that burning hands does 17.5 damage. And it has a 1 round casting time. So you can stand there in your no armor chanting in order to make an attack roll for d4. That’s kinda awful really. And if it were good it happens to be on the warmage list also. Only he gets to add int to damage on his so it’s just better.

I don’t think Reserves of strength helps that combo. So your plan is to blow 2 feats to make hail of stones do 4d4 with an attack roll and then you are stuck standing stunned for 3 rounds in your no armor 4 hp? First, I think that’s an awful idea and you gonna die. Second, why couldn’t the warmage take the exact same feat and do the exact same thing but have better hp and ac while standing useless on the battlefield?

Segev

2019-04-29, 09:32 AM

Here's another question: do the fixed-list spontaneous casters mix better or worse with Wizard than does Sorcerer in Ultimate Magus?

Bavarian itP

2019-04-29, 10:00 AM

Here's another question: do the fixed-list spontaneous casters mix better or worse with Wizard than does Sorcerer in Ultimate Magus?

Since Beguiler and Wizard share INT as their key stat, that is a huge advantage for the Beguiler.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-04-29, 10:05 AM

Like, okay, wings of flurry is great, but I can't help feeling a bit underwhelmed here.Honestly, if you're underwhelmed by Wings of Flurry then I don't think there's any helping you. Imagine WoF was on the warmage list. A warmage 8 would have that long list of blasting/bfc options, but on most rounds of most serious combats she'd want to use WoF instead because it would be better than any of those other options. Hell, a warmage 16 might just spam WoF, considering it's still untyped party friendly AoE with a save-or-daze attached and no CL cap. Every once in a while the DM will throw a golem the party's way (orb), or high-reflex folks (HoS or non-blasting), but that's the niche case and also easily covered even with the Sorcerer's spells known.

Warmages get a few good non-blasting options, but they're all BFC. They have gaping holes that any blaster wants. They have no special action economy; they have no special defenses other than 1 more HP per level and no need for thistledown; they have no way to dispel blasting defenses (less required in the early levels, but later it's huge). They have no fall-back option of buffing the party. They have no special detection or movement. Generally a sorcerer's lack of spells known is a massive issue, but the nice thing about making a blast-focused sorcerer is that you only really need a couple of blasting options. You can then spend the rest of your limited spells known shoring those other necessary things with great spell picks.

With a beguiler, there is a convincing argument that at levels 1-9, five good spells at each level outweighs 1-2 great spells. I don't see the same argument applying here; five different blasting spells, making blasting ever slightly more robust, doesn't compete with 1-2 great spells, including better blasting spells than the ones warmage can access.

DdarkED

2019-04-29, 10:08 AM

Here's another question: do the fixed-list spontaneous casters mix better or worse with Wizard than does Sorcerer in Ultimate Magus?

hard to say generally, a few points

1 it adds a spell the character already knows(from his prepared list) to one of his fixed list. this does open up some advantages but not as many as if he was adding a spell he does not already have at least limited access too.

2 it comes on line slow. adding a 1st lv spell to your fixed list at character lv 6+ is not as relevant as other list expanding tricks.

3 by lv 16 it has obviously powered up the fixed list with wizard spells up spell lv 5 but now were in rainbow servant lv range and it does not hold a candle to that trick.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-04-29, 10:52 AM

Here's another question: do the fixed-list spontaneous casters mix better or worse with Wizard than does Sorcerer in Ultimate Magus?UM is a wizard metamagic PrC pretending to be a theurge PrC (assuming you're optimizing by advancing wizard the whole time). For the most part, you're using spontaneous slots to fuel metamagic, and every once in a while you can get some utility out of them. Therefore the spontaneous class doesn't matter too much, and it's mostly about the secondary perks you can squeeze out. Beguiler gets you more slots via INT-sadness and more overall utility and power in the early levels pre-UM; there's a reason it's the default option as Bavarian points out. The reason to go sorcerer instead would be to get Wings of Cover at character level 10... which might be reason enough if you're starting the campaign at the mid levels and can afford a half-decent charisma score.

Troacctid

2019-04-29, 11:38 AM

It's not clear to me that we can agree, but it would help if you can specify a build to compare with. Maybe you have a trick I don't know? Or maybe there is some reconciling of possibilities into actuality that would help?
How about the same build but replace Searing Spell with something good—let's say Forceful Spell.

To me, it looks like the warmage is subpar in just about all dimensions.

a) I think you are underrating PW:P a bit. The heavy majority of opponents are vulnerable to PW:P at level 1. In that common situation, the warmage lacks any ability to inflict anything like 35 damage against a single opponent with a spell at level 1.

b) I think you are also underrating RoS HoS's complementarity. A no-save expected 10 AE damage at level 1 is pretty good, exceeding what typical warmages can do even when targeting a single opponent.
What Gnaeus said.

It's actually more efficient than an Orb of fire. Combust does d8/level while Orb of fire only does d6/level. Combust is a quite potent damage dealer if you aren't familiar with it.

In many cases Combust + Raging Flame is even better given the ease of a touch attack. Of course, you only need one Raging Flame per combat, so I'm internally debating swapping Grease for Lesser Orb of Fire at level 10 when Wings of Flurry is online for an alternate refl-or-suck.
Combust doesn't force a save against skipping your turn and/or taking a bunch of Strength damage. Also, raging flame takes a whole extra turn to set up.

The warmage lacks any access to party-friendly AoE by default as far as I know.
That's why cones and lines are useful.

This is perplexing to me. Are we looking at the same Warmage spell list? Does grease not count as BFC to you? What about Body Blaze? Body Blaze does not precisely replicate Wall of Fire, but it's at least comparable---more adaptable but somewhat more difficult to deploy.
Apparently not, since you don't seem to have noticed the warmage gets pyrotechnics at level 4, stinking cloud and sleet storm at level 6, and black tentacles and wall of fire at level 8. Plus ice storm as a 3rd level spell, I guess, if that counts.

Honestly, if you're underwhelmed by Wings of Flurry then I don't think there's any helping you. Imagine WoF was on the warmage list. A warmage 8 would have that long list of blasting/bfc options, but on most rounds of most serious combats she'd want to use WoF instead because it would be better than any of those other options. Hell, a warmage 16 might just spam WoF, considering it's still untyped party friendly AoE with a save-or-daze attached and no CL cap. Every once in a while the DM will throw a golem the party's way (orb), or high-reflex folks (HoS or non-blasting), but that's the niche case and also easily covered even with the Sorcerer's spells known.
Obviously it's good but you also don't get it until later in the game. That's why I qualified my original statement.

Warmages get a few good non-blasting options, but they're all BFC. They have gaping holes that any blaster wants. They have no special action economy; they have no special defenses other than 1 more HP per level and no need for thistledown; they have no way to dispel blasting defenses (less required in the early levels, but later it's huge). They have no fall-back option of buffing the party. They have no special detection or movement. Generally a sorcerer's lack of spells known is a massive issue, but the nice thing about making a blast-focused sorcerer is that you only really need a couple of blasting options. You can then spend the rest of your limited spells known shoring those other necessary things with great spell picks.
Okay but have you actually looked at the warmage list lately? Because like advanced learning covers some of that but also like there are totally buff spells and defensive spells on there by default.

With a beguiler, there is a convincing argument that at levels 1-9, five good spells at each level outweighs 1-2 great spells. I don't see the same argument applying here; five different blasting spells, making blasting ever slightly more robust, doesn't compete with 1-2 great spells, including better blasting spells than the ones warmage can access.
The only better blasting spell is wings of flurry, and replicating the warmage's blasting abilities while having spells left over is harder than it looks. And if you stick to Core + SpC for your spells, then I suspect it's not even possible.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-04-29, 02:57 PM

Okay but have you actually looked at the warmage list lately? Because like advanced learning covers some of that but also like there are totally buff spells and defensive spells on there by default.Maybe you can point out what I'm apparently missing; all I'm seeing is Fire Shield on the base list as one mediocre defensive buff and Flame Arrow as a poor spell which could be construed as a group buff. Advanced learning at the level range we're talking about is one 1st level evocation and one 3rd level evocation. What picks are you making to shore up the warmage's list? I guess I would take Blood Wind (with the right party) and something like Ghost Lantern or Wind Wall. That certainly helps, but there are just too many holes to fill.

replicating the warmage's blasting abilities while having spells left over is harder than it looks. And if you stick to Core + SpC for your spells, then I suspect it's not even possible.A sorcerer doesn't need to replicate everything perfectly to be better. They just have to have something better to do than a warmage on average. WoF + a no-SR blast generally beats a long list of level 1-4 blasts that doesn't include WoF.

Ultimately this is a quibble over where the turning point is for sorc blaster v. warmage blaster when we restrict things to what a warmage can actually do - blasting + bfc + save or X. I'll say the warmage has a distinct edge levels 1-4 and a slight edge levels 5-7; then the wheels quickly start to fall off. If the sorcerer isn't just a blaster we can move the numbers back a bit.

Troacctid

2019-04-29, 03:47 PM

Maybe you can point out what I'm apparently missing; all I'm seeing is Fire Shield on the base list as one mediocre defensive buff and Flame Arrow as a poor spell which could be construed as a group buff.
Not necessarily group buffs, but there's fist of stone, accuracy, fire shield, flame arrow, and mass fire shield, plus anything from advanced learning e.g. guiding light.

Advanced learning at the level range we're talking about is one 1st level evocation and one 3rd level evocation. What picks are you making to shore up the warmage's list? I guess I would take Blood Wind (with the right party) and something like Ghost Lantern or Wind Wall. That certainly helps, but there are just too many holes to fill.
A sorcerer doesn't need to replicate everything perfectly to be better. They just have to have something better to do than a warmage on average. WoF + a no-SR blast generally beats a long list of level 1-4 blasts that doesn't include WoF.
Advanced Learning #1 is probably either blood wind, dawn burst, floating disk, or guiding light. Advanced Learning #2 could be electric vengeance, force hammer, force ladder, frost breath, Leomund's tiny igloo, luminous swarm, ray of resurgence, seeking ray, arcane maul, blacklight, ghost lantern, Leomund's tiny hut, light of Venya, or marked pulse.

Cosi

2019-04-29, 05:51 PM

The Sorcerer can't match the Warmage's blasting abilities, but blasting is pretty bad, and it has sharply diminishing returns to scale. If you could trade your extra lesser orbs for other 1st level spells -- even other 1st level Evocation spells -- every Warmage would do that in a heartbeat. If you take fireball and orb of fire you're covering more than 50% of the utility available from blasting, probably substantially so.

Also, power word pain is still a bad plan for PCs. You'll end up either having to fight your opponents anyway, or spending more resources running away than it would take to just kill your opponents. Look at Cal's plan of repeatedly casting dimension door and power word pain. That's a huge number of spell slots for something that's not going to be any more effective than just locking people down with evard's black tentacles and then wasting them with Fiery Burst.

This would be a damning criticism of beguilers were it remotely true. Beguilers have tons of powerful spells that are not mind-affecting at all. I've listed them extensively a few times. Spells like silent image, invisibility, glitterdust, glibness, haste, solid fog, and a ton of others are literally right there.

Yes. It's also worth noting how the Beguiler's unique spellcasting mechanic lets them leverage their list. The fact that the Beguiler knows all his spells and can cast them whenever he wants lets him get an advantage from spells other casters would never touch. Take rouse. rouse is, generally speaking, a garbage spell. No Sorcerer is going to spend a spell know on it. No Wizard is going to prepare it, or even put it in their spellbook. But there's always the possibility of the one in a million scenario where rouse is the best possible use of a spell slot. And the Beguiler has an advantage there. It's small, but it's not nothing. And the Beguiler list has way better spells than rouse even before you start expanding it.

beguilers are better than sorcerers at about half the level range, after which point the sorcerer pulls ahead, and then it equalizes when the beguiler gets ice assassin.

This is only even true if you ignore all the ways the Beguiler can leverage their unique class mechanics to gain an advantage. Yes, Sorcerer 12 is probably ahead of Beguiler 12. But if the Sorcerer is picking good enough spells for that to be true, the Beguiler is loading up on Arcane Disciple and Prestige Domains, or Apprentice (which makes Beguiler 20 a Sorcerer 20 but better), or using UMD to break the game, or taking Rainbow Servant and pulling ahead at 16th (or earlier with any early entry trick).

Here's another question: do the fixed-list spontaneous casters mix better or worse with Wizard than does Sorcerer in Ultimate Magus?

Beguiler is better. Others are probably worse. wings of flurry is good, but that's one spell.

The burden of proof here should be on the claim that the apprentice feat lets you pick spells off of other spell lists as there is nothing in the feat's text to support that

It says "he can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged." planar binding is a spell. Therefore, if a Beguiler opts to replace repulsion, he may replace it with planar binding. It seems to me that the burden of proof is on the people who claim that there are spells that don't fall under "a spell", or that despite the fact that the spell has a list of restrictions that does not include "from your list" it somehow requires you to pick from your list. It's like saying that the Rogue's Bonus Feat ability doesn't allow you to choose Fighter Bonus Feats.

Anthrowhale

2019-04-29, 09:11 PM

I think you are overrating it quite a bit. 35 damage would be nice, but you are doing 3.5 per round. Most things can kill your unarmored 4+con self before they die. Thats without worrying about things like skeletons that are immune.

Using PW:P in a personal combat situation is about the least useful application I can imagine. Other possibilities:
1. PW:P 2. Run Away!
1. PW:P 2. Morale failure, enemy runs away.
1. PW:P 2. Surrender and our cleric will keep you alive.
1. PW:P 2. Party Tank goes total defense.

Re HoS are we even looking at the same spell? The one I see does 1d4 damage at level 1. It’s a 5’radius, so if you are super lucky you could get a couple of tightly packed enemies. And then it requires an attack roll. Not a ranged touch attack.

We are looking at different spells. There are apparently 4 versions of Hail of Stone (Oriental Adventures, Complete Arcane, Underdark, Spell Compendium).

I was using the one in the Spell Compendium, where it has no attack roll requirement and SR: No. The warmage version from Complete Arcane is the same except SR:Yes. The Oriental Adventures and Underdark ones are uncompelling due to the attack roll.

The other critical factor is that Reserves of Strength allows you to cast it as caster level 4 for 4d4 damage.

Second, why couldn’t the warmage take the exact same feat and do the exact same thing but have better hp and ac while standing useless on the battlefield?
Standing around stunned is an ok choice in the context of enemies dead + some party members to protect you in case something comes up at low level.

There is no problem with a warmage mimicking a sorcerer in this tactic.

Combust doesn't force a save against skipping your turn and/or taking a bunch of Strength damage.

There are different goals here. If you want damage, then Combust is more efficient than an Orb at these levels. If you want daze, then Wings of Flurry is typically superior to an Orb in the combats I've observed.

Also, raging flame takes a whole extra turn to set up.

My response was in the context of your complaints about the effective use of Arcane Fusion. In that context, there is no extra round of setup.

That's why cones and lines are useful.

WoF seems significantly superior in my experience.

Apparently not, since you don't seem to have noticed the warmage gets pyrotechnics at level 4, stinking cloud and sleet storm at level 6, and black tentacles and wall of fire at level 8. Plus ice storm as a 3rd level spell, I guess, if that counts.

I see those. I would not really count Ice Storm. So, does Grease count as BFC to you? Glitterdust? What about Body Blaze? If not, what is your criteria?

My understanding is that your proposal is:

1. Iron Will
Human: Reserves of Strength
3. Quick Recovery
3. Advanced Learning
6. Forceful Spell
6. Advanced Learning[Electric Vengeance]
9. Twin Spell

Which is nicely comparable. Do you want to adjust the Advanced Learning? Forceful Spell is pretty nice with Searing Spell less important given the Planar Sorcerer substitution level. Let's adjust the Sorcerer to be more directly comparable according to:

1. Iron Will
Human: Reserves of Strength
Level 1: 1. [B]Power Word: Pain (Close, mind-affecting, 35), 1. Hail of Stone (Medium, AoE, 10, SR:No)
3. Quick Recovery
Level 3: 1. Grease (Close, AoE, Reflex-or-Suck, SR:No)
Level 4: 2. Combust (Touch, Fire, 31.5)
Level 5: 2. [Planar Sorcerer], 1. Raging Flame
6. Forceful Spell
Level 6: 3. Fireball (Long, Fire, AoE, 40.5 Refl/2), 1. True Strike (replacing PW:P)
Level 7: 3. Body Blaze (Wall, Fire, 19) 2. Glitterdust (Medium, AoE, Will-or-Suck, SR:No) 1. True Casting
Level 8: 4. Celerity
9. Twin Spell
Level 9: 4. Wings of Flurry (Party-friendly AoE 45.5 Refl/2 + Refl-or-suck) 3. Stinking Cloud (Medium, AoE, Fort-or-Suck, SR:No) 2. Alter Self
Level 10: 5. Arcane Fusion

Edit: it's probably also worth dealing with abilities since Warmages are more MAD. Maybe a 32 point buy? I'll go with Str 8/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 8/Wis 12/Cha 18 You'll need to sacrifice Initiative, hit points, Quick Recovery, or save DC to get a warmage edge.

Sleven

2019-04-30, 12:40 AM

Little in this thread has convinced me that anyone knows what they're talking about when it comes to sorcerer.

They don't get UMD? False. There are ACFs for that, and the sorcerer actually has the primary stat to support its use at early levels.

Mato's most salient point wasn't adequately addressed either. That is that you don't need 10 versions of more or less the same spell. The minionmancy available to a dread necro can be achieved by a sorcerer with 2-4 spells. Command Undead, Animate Dead, Planar Binding, Limited Wish. Done. The comparison to warmage looks much the same, except it's even more lopsided because the sorcerer has access to blasting spells that are just plain better than what the warmage has available to it. Options like Streamers, Dalamar's Lightning Lance, and the all-powerful Explosive Runes come to mind. If you want different shapes, that's what Sculpt Spell is for. Let's not pretend that there aren't simple solutions to the "options" available to a warmage.

Beguilers are the only fixed-list class that really stands a chance at being competitive, and even then it's only at early levels. Big problem with beguilers though: when it comes to actually finishing the job in a large number of scenarios, they fall flat. Their damage is nonexistant for anything that's immune to mind-affecting. Beguiler looks great up until this serious limitation is considered. It's not too hard for a DM to turn you into a social/skill stick in the mud. Especially at early levels when your UMD won't be high enough and your wealth isn't significant enough to support wand-based combat. The only variant that really works here is the Wand Bonding single-charge cheeseforged. Which I'm fine with considering as something the sorcerer has to surpass to earn its place on the top of the tier 2 heap.

Now I'm not going to argue that the sheer versatility offered by the beguiler doesn't give it a significant edge for the first 6-7 levels, but I am going to argue that from level 7-8 onwards the sorcerer comes out on top. By then they have enough spells known to cover most of the core things a beguiler, dread necro, or warmage does (although not all of them simultaneously, that won't be achievable until around level 13-14, although the meer fact that they can do all of those classes' main schitks by that level is something of significant merit to the sorcerer). Furthermore, they get Polymorph, which puts them firmly ahead of all three fixed list casters (and shame on anyone who chose a different 4th level spell at level 7 or 8).

People are also forgetting all the splat advantages sorcerers have. It's not just ACFs like planar sorcerer, it's dragonpacts and 100% unquestionably RAW off-list spell swapping by level 10. Even without custom spell-like ability lists from dragonpacts some of the example ones are quite good.

Then there's the versatility of options available to a sorcerer who decides to play as a dragon, phaerimm, or other uniquely sorcerous monster race. Hell, even non-loredrake kobolds can put themselves ahead of fixed list casters in spell progression by level 6. Yet another resource putting the sorcerer firmly ahead of anything the fixed list classes have available.

EDIT: Let's also stop fawning over Wings of Flurry. It's a 30ft range burst spell. If you can put yourself within 30ft of multiple enemies and get away with it you're living off of the good graces/ignorance of your DM or lucky dice rolls.

Cosi

2019-04-30, 06:48 AM

Using PW:P in a personal combat situation is about the least useful application I can imagine. Other possibilities:
1. PW:P 2. Run Away!
1. PW:P 2. Morale failure, enemy runs away.
1. PW:P 2. Surrender and our cleric will keep you alive.
1. PW:P 2. Party Tank goes total defense.

You're not going to be able to disengage effectively at low levels, no one is going to retreat when it means 100% death and no chance of killing you, your Cleric probably can't keep someone who got tagged by power word pain alive, and the party tank would be better served by you doing something to incapacitate enemies now. Honestly, I think that 90%+ of the time this will just be worse than Reserves of Strength hail of stone (which, by the way, is a pretty high-op trick, and no one contests that the high-op Sorcerer is baseline better, just that fixed-list casters can close that gap), and you should pick some other spell.

Mato's most salient point wasn't adequately addressed either. That is that you don't need 10 versions of more or less the same spell.

As long as the fixed-list casters have more than one kind of effect at any given level, they're still ahead of the Sorcerer even after deduplication. For example, at spell level 4 the Dread Necromancer gets animate dead (minionmancy, and it's super good for them because of Undead Mastery), enervation (a single target debuff, and specifically called out as something that supposedly makes Sorcerers better than fixed-list casters), and evard's black tentacles (BFC). Even if you assume that the value from all their other spells is zero -- which is absurd -- that's still more 4th level options than the Sorcerer will get until 11th level, and they get Advanced Learning at this level. Yes, their lists eventually dry up, but for a solid half the game they're just flat better than the Sorcerer, and the spells are good enough that low or even mid op Sorcerers aren't going to be picking better ones, meaning they keep ahead into high levels.

Their damage is nonexistant for anything that's immune to mind-affecting.

I mean, aside from dropping haste on a bunch of charmed/Diplomancied/dominated brutes. And against many mind-affecting immune enemies, specifically anything mindless, silent image is an instant win. And that's without considering anything but the base class. At lower levels of optimization you can do something like Arcane Disciple (Fire) + Fiery Burst for consistent damage while their target is locked down, and at high optimization you just shuffle around your spells to get blasting or summoning or whatever you want to counter these enemies with.

Furthermore, they get Polymorph, which puts them firmly ahead of all three fixed list casters (and shame on anyone who chose a different 4th level spell at level 7 or 8).

At any level of optimization where a Sorcerer is picking a 4th level spell at 7th level, the Beguiler is doing something like Divine Oracle + Eternal Wand of substitute domain to get four or five extra spells at every level, with enough flexibility that two or three will be covering whatever they think the biggest holes in their arsenal are. No one seems to consider that as the Sorcerer optimizes, the Beguiler also optimizes.

People are also forgetting all the splat advantages sorcerers have. It's not just ACFs like planar sorcerer, it's dragonpacts and 100% unquestionably RAW off-list spell swapping by level 10.

The Beguiler gets unquestionably RAW off-list spell swapping at level 1. If you're playing a game where the Sorcerer is doing whatever trick it is you're talking about (I notice you haven't bothered to name it, which makes me suspect it's less unquestionable than you're claiming), the Beguiler is using Apprentice to just be a better Sorcerer. Getting the two best Sorcerer spells of each level when the Sorcerer gets them, and maintaining her massive lead in spells known lets the Beguiler win easily.

Even without custom spell-like ability lists from dragonpacts some of the example ones are quite good.

The best Dragonpacts are mostly giving you spells the Beguiler gets for free. And don't pretend you're getting the custom ones in any world where the Beguiler isn't going to be allowed to go all-out on list expansion.

Anthrowhale

2019-04-30, 07:08 AM

You're not going to be able to disengage effectively at low levels,

This is not always true in my experience since PW:P has range.

no one is going to retreat when it means 100% death and no chance of killing you,

This probably varies with the DM, but I'm used to playing in situations where the monsters aren't suicidal robots and don't have perfect knowledge.

your Cleric probably can't keep someone who got tagged by power word pain alive,

That's true, but it probably doesn't matter when/if this is discovered after surrendering.

and the party tank would be better served by you doing something to incapacitate enemies now.

It depends. If the party tank can shut down attacks so there is only a 5%/round chance of taking a hit that's a reasonable option.

Honestly, I think that 90%+ of the time this will just be worse than Reserves of Strength hail of stone

RoS HoS is a pretty devastating routine at level 1, but I still think PW:P would be pretty effective in a number of combat situations I've seen. Furthermore, amongst these situations, the pair seem highly complementary as damage dealers---one or the other will work.

Cosi

2019-04-30, 07:20 AM

This is not always true in my experience since PW:P has range.

So do your enemies.

This probably varies with the DM, but I'm used to playing in situations where the monsters aren't suicidal robots and don't have perfect knowledge.

power word pain doesn't damage you that quickly, and enemies are as likely to assume that killing the caster will end the spell as that running away will let them live.

That's true, but it probably doesn't matter when/if this is discovered after surrendering.

No one is going to surrender before getting the healing, so this just ends up putting your Cleric in melee distance of someone you're slowly torturing to death, which sounds like an incredibly terrible plan.

It depends. If the party tank can shut down attacks so there is only a 5%/round chance of taking a hit that's a reasonable option.

The party tank probably can't do that, and "tank" is not a real role in D&D. It's hard enough to tank at mid levels, there's no way you're getting a lockdown build with an AC that good working at 1st level, and even if you were, this strategy is only marginally more effective than "Fighter A tanks, Fighter B hits enemy with crossbow".

Lans

2019-04-30, 08:28 AM

Segev

2019-04-30, 08:53 AM

The minionmancy available to a dread necro can be achieved by a sorcerer with 2-4 spells. Command Undead, Animate Dead, Planar Binding, Limited Wish. Done.This is non-trivial as an expense, considering how many of these are "downtime spells." They're essentially spells known eaten that will never see direct play; only the effects. While those effects are good, it's actually a major blow against spontaneous casters who actually have to give something up to learn them. Fixed-list casters get them "for free" because the spell COUNT on their lists is more or less irrelevant; it's all about choosing by theme. Prepared casters love them because the cost to scribe them in a spellbook (or the non-cost of having them available to pray for) is miniscule compared to the cost of a limited spell known, and they can just prepare them on days they don't need more actively-used spells.

As another poster pointed out, you're probably better off with a collection of Runestaves for these spells. Or even Scribe Scroll and using limited wish to substitute for the lower-level ones; I think you can technically get away with this without having to spend the XP component because you only lose the spell each day, rather than actually being said to cast it, while crafting. Scrolls of suitable CL will be more expensive - so maybe you want to craft staves, instead, anyway - but it shou

Beguilers are the only fixed-list class that really stands a chance at being competitive, and even then it's only at early levels. Big problem with beguilers though: when it comes to actually finishing the job in a large number of scenarios, they fall flat. Their damage is nonexistant for anything that's immune to mind-affecting. Beguiler looks great up until this serious limitation is considered. It's not too hard for a DM to turn you into a social/skill stick in the mud. Especially at early levels when your UMD won't be high enough and your wealth isn't significant enough to support wand-based combat. The only variant that really works here is the Wand Bonding single-charge cheeseforged. Which I'm fine with considering as something the sorcerer has to surpass to earn its place on the top of the tier 2 heap.

This is an oft-held misconception, also said of Enchanters and Bards. Less so of Necromancers, likely due to having more direct options. But a Beguiler's response to mindless foes is his mind-controlled minions. No, he's not doing a darned thing directly to that couple of zombies, but his three charmed orcs or ogres will make quick work of them.

People are also forgetting all the splat advantages sorcerers have. It's not just ACFs like planar sorcerer, it's dragonpacts and 100% unquestionably RAW off-list spell swapping by level 10. Even without custom spell-like ability lists from dragonpacts some of the example ones are quite good. Off-list spell-swapping? Can you elaborate and point me at the source, please? This sounds interesting.

Gnaeus

2019-04-30, 09:00 AM

This is an oft-held misconception, also said of Enchanters and Bards. Less so of Necromancers, likely due to having more direct options. But a Beguiler's response to mindless foes is his mind-controlled minions. No, he's not doing a darned thing directly to that couple of zombies, but his three charmed orcs or ogres will make quick work of them.

In most parties, haste or greater invisibility (on the rogue) will do more damage than a damage spell.

Segev

2019-04-30, 09:04 AM

In most parties, haste or greater invisibility (on the rogue) will do more damage than a damage spell.

In a nearly no-holds-barred cheesy high-level game, I once played a warmage with carefully-chosen combat buffs to fill out his roster, and joked that my favorite combat spell was the monkbarian FB EWP master with the exotic two-ended monk weapon that could do so much damage to solid adamantine in a round that he had an effective burrow speed of 20 ft. through the stuff. I'd cast buffs on him and point him at an enemy. My massive reserve of blasting was for when I got bored watching him puree them and wanted to participate.

Mato

2019-04-30, 10:20 AM

That's not the idea that I've ever seen the debate come to. Like, Cal was weirdly claiming that the sorcerer can accomplish that, and it was silly, but this is a truly bizarre strawman.Four pages of discussion and you think the only person I could be replying to is you?

What's a truly bizarre thing is your post. The only real thing you tried to refute was about I said the sorcerer can learn better spells several times and how the beguiler's color spray, hypnotism, sleep, and whelm spells were redundant and short lived by claiming the beguiler's known count is higher. I mean look at your post, Mato mentioned ice assassin but the beguiler, not the dread necromancer or warmage, can learn that so invalidated! It's strange that you decided to be guilty of everything I previously covered, but I can see why you thought I was talking about you now.

To me, it looks like the warmage is subpar in just about all dimensions.
You should probably try taking off your bias lens.

It appears Troacctid values ranged options at the lowest levels. Like the warmage's chill touch, fist of stone, and shocking grasp are all melee based spells which is a bad deal to even be in a position to use. Even burning hands has an extremely short range so the only thing the warmage has in this area is a single often ineffective debuff, a limited ally buff, and magic missile. to counter that Troacctid decided to take two ranged direct damage spells, both of them to not allow saves or check spell resistance or require a successful attack roll or require you to be in your opponent's melee range. To me this has a different point. See I think it's wasteful to take both. I also think power word pain, magic missile, and hail of stones are all solid options as a 1st level go to for damage. Each one has a tiny pro and a tiny con against each other with PW:P being better in most situations. So the idea that Troacctid grabbed both isn't about building an optimized sorcerer that choose something like grease and PW:P, it's him demonstrating how the sorcerer can learn better spells at blasting than the warmage.

For second level spells Troacctid sort of does the same thing. His sorcerer already has two ranged damage options so if the warmage really thinks he needs to be in melee using touch attacks why not point out how combust can deal twice as much damage as fireburst. Raging flame has it's own thing too, with the average of a d6 being 3.5 a single sorcerer can make an entire host of warmages 28% more deadly since fire trap, fireburst, flaming sphere, pyrotechnics, and scorching ray are all fire based spells.

For the third level of spells it seems like he dropped the ball. Fireball is a terrible spell but Troacctid combines this with learning true strike so I think he's consistently sticking to long range options and he has the idea that the sorcerer should be able to fire it through a hole the rogue drilled through a wall three hundred feet away. So the deficits compared to a real sorcerer are really starting to show. The warmage doesn't really do much better, his new spells just deal more than his old ones, he gets a little healing, and he can now exhaust a target to limit them running around. But a group of glitterdust blinded creatures move at half speed webbed ones & often greased ones can't move at all. You would think with all this touch & melee ideology Troacctid would have considered substitution so his sorcerer only takes one half of the damage dealt to him or alter self to infinite healing and better defenses. And I think that's because Troacctid is trying to build a warmage and not a decent sorcerer. The choices at level 6 & 7 seem extremely terrible because you are starting to realize just how much sorcerer stuff you are giving up.

For the fourth, Troacctid introduces the ability for his blasting sorcerer to hit his opponents twice during a surprise round skipping any saves like the two phantasmal killer offers without having to wait several rounds for wall of fire, or several days if you're using contagion, to kill an opponent. Troacctid also sticks to damage again with a party friendly nuke that can negate all of his enemies actions which to me completes the entire damage progression arc. Without using metamagics, the next ten levels of warmage will be spent never catching up to this benchmark. go ahead and look, the warmage doesn't even break a 15d6 cap until polar ray which is a single target effect without built in turn-losing crowd control. With eclectic learning the warmage isn't going to have the option to "doublecast" on the same turn either. But, the warmage does get animate dead and unless the campaign world intervenes he is going to use them so it really doesn't seem like the warmage wins out here because the sorcerer could have put off replacing the entire warmage class's purpose with wings of flurry later until a later level.

All well, at least at level 9 Troacctid stopped looking at damage spells so he knew what he did. But his choices come off more as a problem with the sorcerer sucking than anything else. Which to me is the point that is trying to be made here. The idea that people think it can do better, or that it sucks, just reinforces it.

Here's another question: do the fixed-list spontaneous casters mix better or worse with Wizard than does Sorcerer in Ultimate Magus?And here is an equally unfair question: Do fixed list spellcaster do better or worse at progressing familiars? :smallwink:

And have you already hit a point where you need to rely on a wizard that highlights how there is no reason to take more than one level in a focused caster's class to make a point?

Take rouse. rouse is, generally speaking, a garbage spell. No Sorcerer is going to spend a spell know on it. No Wizard is going to prepare it, or even put it in their spellbook. But there's always the possibility of the one in a million scenario where rouse is the best possible use of a spell slot. And the Beguiler has an advantage there. It's small, but it's not nothing.
I'm pretty sure it's nothing. Like no one bothers with rouse because you can already wake multiple people up as a standard action, or even a free one if stealth isn't needed, without using a spell slot.

But if almost the entire party fails against sleep and you don't feel nonlethal damage to teammates or killing your opponent a solution. I'd think this is a huge sign that the party needs to scrap their characters and try again. Using rouse in a situation like that is like saying driving on four flat tires, an overheating engine, unbelted, with glass shards flying in your face from a broken windshield has the value of getting you a few feet down the street if you don't feel like walking.

The other critical factor is that Reserves of Strength allows you to cast it as caster level 4 for 4d4 damage. Standing around stunned is an ok choice in the context of enemies dead + some party members to protect you in case something comes up at low level.So don't? An easy low level method for getting around reserve of strength's stun is to use a touch attack which can be held indefinitely until you decide to cast something else instead.

For example, at spell level 4 the Dread Necromancer gets animate dead (minionmancy, and it's super good for them because of Undead Mastery), enervation (a single target debuff, and specifically called out as something that supposedly makes Sorcerers better than fixed-list casters), and evard's black tentacles (BFC).Black tentacles, again a solid spell, is just a 20ft CC spell that uses bad grapple rules to deal tiny amounts of damage. And that's kind of what I spoke about in this post. Troacctid focused on reaching the end of blasting at level 9 instead of being a sorcerer. Like he has 1st through 3rd level known slots to pick up some crowd control and debuffs (preferably as a single spell, like glitterdust). He should probably have focused on minion creation over damage. But I get where he was trying to go, plus he did bring up extra actions and arcane fusion to effectively quadruple his sorcerer's spell output so if his sorcerer did learn something besides blasting it can do four different things at once instead of picking one each round.

In most parties, haste or greater invisibility (on the rogue) will do more damage than a damage spell.In most parties you don't even need a warmage since three other people can deal damage. :smallamused:

The other classes have the same problem when it comes to party play. Just about everything the beguiler can do can be performed by the thief role. Like why worry about dominated minions walking into a magic circle against evil if you used mundane skills to charm them? More casterish thieves, like a factotum or bard, can even supply the war power of spellcasting to divination abuse.

And the dread necromancer tips to far into the priest's role and may even run into conflicts with it. Like a good-aligned cleric or a by the book druid doesn't like undead. And if you say the cleric is evil, well the cleric is better than a dread necromancer. You might as well roll of a warrior can try to compete with the druid's animal companion.

In a party dynamic the sorcerer has an even larger chance to shine because he is one level, or one retrain, away from covering a weakness the party has. He's just a slower wizard like that.

Off-list spell-swapping? Can you elaborate and point me at the source, please? This sounds interesting.Sorcerers get dragonblood spellpact as a 5th level spell that lets two dragonblooded spellcasters trade a spell known spells. It also has no real limits, like a sorcerer can trade something away with a favored soul or most metallic dragons to pick up cleric spells like heal. Through stuff like child of eberron, silver pyromancer, & prestige bard just about any spell in the game can be theoretically on a spontaneous spellcaster's list.

It's even possible for a dread necromancer to trade for the dragonblood spellpact it's self and his known list as a lot more slots to hold spells. But that would require someone arguing that a dread necromancer is superior to a sorcerer to admit sorcerers have better options and find a sorcerer to make the dread necromancer more sorcerer-like instead of being stuck with a fixed list.

There is also a lot of replies to filter through from here but I have a ton of work this morning so I apologize for not being able to get to the parts that deserve a good reply and even the ones that I'd like to make a sarcastic reply to. But I caught up on some of them.

Troacctid

2019-04-30, 11:33 AM

There are different goals here. If you want damage, then Combust is more efficient than an Orb at these levels. If you want daze, then Wings of Flurry is typically superior to an Orb in the combats I've observed.
Chill Touch is better than Combust. It's untyped damage, comes with a debuff, no CL cap, and it's lower level, so it's easier to apply metamagic.

I see those. I would not really count Ice Storm. So, does Grease count as BFC to you? Glitterdust? What about Body Blaze? If not, what is your criteria?
Grease certainly doesn't control very much of the battlefield. Most fights you'll be lucky to even hit more than one enemy with it. I think of it as more of a single-target save-or-suck; a better 1st level BFC spell would be Entangle or Impeding Stones. Body Blaze and Glitterdust don't come online until after the warmage has 3rd level spells. Glitterdust is good, but is it better than Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm combined? Body Blaze is, uh, not good. Especially since you don't have Tumble or any way to boost movement speed. I'm actually kind of confused why you even took it as it seems clearly worse than other options at that level. I would pick any of Haste, Suggestion, Sleet Storm, or Dispel Magic over it, personally. If you're working with PWP then Sleet Storm would be my pick—it's great at delaying enemies while the damage over time ticks down.

My understanding is that your proposal is:

1. Iron Will
Human: Reserves of Strength
3. Quick Recovery
3. Advanced Learning[Blood Wind]
6. Forceful Spell
6. Advanced Learning[Electric Vengeance]
9. Twin Spell

Which is nicely comparable. Do you want to adjust the Advanced Learning?
I don't think it matters what feats they take as long as they're taking the same or similar feats. Twin Spell seems like a weird pick at this level though. I'd probably take something like Attune Gem, Fell Drain, Jungle Veteran, Shape Soulmeld, Sickening Grasp, or Spellstrike.

Edit: it's probably also worth dealing with abilities since Warmages are more MAD. Maybe a 32 point buy? I'll go with Str 8/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 8/Wis 12/Cha 18 You'll need to sacrifice Initiative, hit points, Quick Recovery, or save DC to get a warmage edge.
My usual 32-point buy is Str 12/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 16. I see you've chosen to dump Strength (sacrificing melee) and Intelligence (sacrificing skills). This gives the warmage a slightly lower save DC, but more versatility. Her melee spells are better, and she can get a free swipe at enemies with a longspear (or preferably fauchard) if they come close, as well as having the option to self-buff up to 18 Strength when the situation calls for it. She has additional utility in Spellcraft, Intimidate, and Knowledge (arcana/history), whereas—assuming you went silverbrow human for the dragonblood subtype—you only have Concentration.

I consider all this an acceptable trade-off.

Segev

2019-04-30, 01:32 PM

And here is an equally unfair question: Do fixed list spellcaster do better or worse at progressing familiars? :smallwink:

And have you already hit a point where you need to rely on a wizard that highlights how there is no reason to take more than one level in a focused caster's class to make a point?Now I'm very curious: what point do you think I'm trying to make? The question was honest; I'm just wondering which does better paired with wizard in Ultimate Magus. It's a pretty niche use; hardly going to make a "point" in any general sense.

Sorcerers get dragonblood spellpact as a 5th level spell that lets two dragonblooded spellcasters trade a spell known spells. It also has no real limits, like a sorcerer can trade something away with a favored soul or most metallic dragons to pick up cleric spells like heal. Through stuff like child of eberron, silver pyromancer, & prestige bard just about any spell in the game can be theoretically on a spontaneous spellcaster's list.Huh. So heavily dependent on other characters having the same feature and being willing to trade. But still interesting.

It's even possible for a dread necromancer to trade for the dragonblood spellpact it's self and his known list as a lot more slots to hold spells. But that would require someone arguing that a dread necromancer is superior to a sorcerer to admit sorcerers have better options and find a sorcerer to make the dread necromancer more sorcerer-like instead of being stuck with a fixed list.No, it would only require people saying dread necromancers are better than sorcerers to acknowledge that giving dread necromancers more flexibility would make them even better.

I think Ardents are better than Divine Minds, but I still think Ardents would be better still if they could get Divine Mind auras for their mantles.

You might want to step back and make sure you're responding with a cool head; you seem to be taking everything as an assault on your position, when I wasn't even addressing whatever position you hold.

Mato

2019-04-30, 01:56 PM

Now I'm very curious: what point do you think I'm trying to make?One that you decided to play off as a thread hijack once sarcastically refuted. :smallsmile:

Huh. So heavily dependent on other characters having the same feature and being willing to trade. But still interesting.If you're not a fixed list caster you don't even need another person. Just create a simulacrum and two weeks and 50gp later it can retrain out a feat for arcane disciple (you're not increasing it's abilities). This method lets you nab any domain spell up to the 5th level in a vacuum without considering the applications of ice assassin or using the wish line of spells to craft or create knowstones or dragonshards.

I feel like we're branching into sorcerer optimization through. And that's only a step away from discussing how assume supernatural ability with alter self with various races or polymorph can grant some truly insane abilities or other such game breaking shenanigans (fell animate locate city bomb, replace two fixed list casters at once). And we know how unfair those examples are.

eggynack

2019-04-30, 02:39 PM

Four pages of discussion and you think the only person I could be replying to is you?

I think you should be replying to at least one person. Can you identify anyone who was making this bizarre argument? Again, the only person I can recall seriously talking about this was opposed to the idea.

What's a truly bizarre thing is your post. The only real thing you tried to refute was about I said the sorcerer can learn better spells several times and how the beguiler's color spray, hypnotism, sleep, and whelm spells were redundant and short lived by claiming the beguiler's known count is higher.
My point was that beguilers have many, many, many spells that are not particularly redundant. Color spray is actually on that list, given that it's not mind-affecting, and so is mage armor, silent image, obscuring mist, expeditious retreat, comprehend languages, and disguise self. They don't just have more spells known. They have an excellent and diverse spell list that outstrips that of the sorcerer very frequently. Your description of the class was insanely inaccurate, claiming that their capacity to deal with hundreds of printed monsters was severely curtailed by the mind-affecting thing.

I mean look at your post, Mato mentioned ice assassin but the beguiler, not the dread necromancer or warmage, can learn that so invalidated! It's strange that you decided to be guilty of everything I previously covered, but I can see why you thought I was talking about you now.
Who cares if just the beguiler can do this? Maybe just the beguiler is better than the sorcerer. I do think that dread necromancers are probably comparable as well, but just beguilers doing this would be sufficient to show you wrong. My note of ice assassin had literally nothing to do with yours, incidentally. It's just something that makes beguilers good in the last couple levels.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-04-30, 02:59 PM

They have an excellent and diverse spell list that outstrips that of the sorcerer very frequently....until 5th level spells, anyway. Then the base list starts looking more like that of a straight-up utility caster.

Segev

2019-04-30, 03:07 PM

One that you decided to play off as a thread hijack once sarcastically refuted. :smallsmile:So...you're attributing intellectual dishonesty to me twice over, at least once outright accusing me of lying.

And you still can't spell out what "point" you think I was making, but claim to have "sarcastically refuted" it without ever specifying what that point was. I honestly have no idea what you're even arguing right now. Nor what point you suppose I was making.

This is the most bizzare way I've ever been insulted on a forum. I don't even have a horse in whatever race you're running, and you're accusing me of intellectual dishonesty while engaged in the gymnastics usually associated with trying desperately to avoid having to discuss a point that apparently is too hard to refute, and I - the person you're supposing is making that point and with whom you feel you have argument - don't even know what point I'm supposedly making that is so good that it makes you feel you can't spell it out for refutation!

I'm bemused and boggled.

If you're not a fixed list caster you don't even need another person. Just create a simulacrum and two weeks and 50gp later it can retrain out a feat for arcane disciple (you're not increasing it's abilities). This method lets you nab any domain spell up to the 5th level in a vacuum without considering the applications of ice assassin or using the wish line of spells to craft or create knowstones or dragonshards.Can't you do that sans simulacrum and the dragon feat and just do the retraining, yourself? Or is this using the simulacrum as a half-level "spellbook" of spare spells?

I feel like we're branching into sorcerer optimization through. And that's only a step away from discussing how assume supernatural ability with alter self with various races or polymorph can grant some truly insane abilities or other such game breaking shenanigans (fell animate locate city bomb, replace two fixed list casters at once). And we know how unfair those examples are.*shrug* if you say so. I'm all for the sorcerer being awesome. I'm all for fixed-list casters being fun themed builds. And I enjoy optimization.

For whatever it's worth, I don't think fixed-list casters are better than sorcerers at anything but their specific schtick, and even then, it's mostly that I'd argue the Dread Necromancer is a better minionmancer than a Sorcerer. Beguiler is doing something a little off-mark from Sorcerer, being more an Enchanger/Rogue hybrid, and Warmage is...underwhelming but functional as a basic blaster. I'd probably still prefer Sorcerer as, yes, I find the Warmage's list more than a bit redundant and his class features to be almost as unexciting as a Sorcerer's lack thereof.

Thurbane

2019-04-30, 03:08 PM

Grease certainly doesn't control very much of the battlefield. Most fights you'll be lucky to even hit more than one enemy with it.

Maybe our group does a lot of dungeoneering, but in most dungeon corridors it is very effective...

Troacctid

2019-04-30, 03:12 PM

...until 5th level spells, anyway. Then the base list starts looking more like that of a straight-up utility caster.
I mean, does it though? Dominate person is a powerhouse, even if none of the other 5th level spells are individually impressive. Greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, shadow walk, and true seeing are excellent 6ths. 7ths are underwhelming, but 8ths include demand, mind blank, and moment of prescience.

Segev

2019-04-30, 03:26 PM

Karl Aegis

2019-04-30, 03:26 PM

Sorcerer 6 / Mage of the Arcane Order 2

Extend Spell, Arcane Preparation, Cooperative Spell, Metamagic Feat (B)

0
Silent Portal, Launch Bolt, Caltrops, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Detect Magic, Repair Minor Damage

1
Ray of Flame, Magecraft, Nightshield, Mage Armor, Floating Disk

2
Ray of Stupidity, Command Undead, Cloud of Bewilderment

3
Scintillating Sphere, Shrink Item

4
Wall of Ice

Build up a usable amount of items with Magecraft and Shrink Item (Extended) for use in battle. Use your Spellpool I feature on your off days to cast Extended Quick Potion and drop in a See Invisibility or something from the Spellpool for the next day. Cast Extended Mage Armor, and Extended Floating Disk the day before you go adventuring. Cast Silent Portal when you come against the dreaded Door enemy. Command Undead versus mindless undead (Dragon Skeletons and such), Ray of Stupidity versus animals and some magical beasts (Gray Render, Frost Worm, Purple Worm). If Silent Image is so good versus mindless enemies, an actual object you toss in should work just as well without costing resources today, kudos to Shrink Item. If you need to cross a chasm or block a massed cavalry charge for some reason, you have options. Take Stalwart Sorcerer if you want to, it doesn't cost anything for +12 hit points and a couple feats. Pay back your Spellpool debt on your down days, use your Spellpool I feature for 4 levels of spells levels 1-3 whenever you need other spells. You've got enough spell slots to just pelt enemies every round of combat, go ahead and use them. Cast Extended Magecraft on your familiar and have it make items for you while you're adventuring if you really need to. Make a set of Huge bolts if you really want to. It's a perfectly usable build that fills a niche one of the fixed list casters don't.

eggynack

2019-04-30, 03:27 PM

For whatever it's worth, I don't think fixed-list casters are better than sorcerers at anything but their specific schtick
I still just have no idea where this idea comes from. Like, you list the beguiler's "shtick" as enchanter/rogue. But you look at, say, third level spells, and dispel magic, haste, and slow are sitting right there as spells not remotely connected to that idea. Glibness too bypasses the biggest weakness of the enchanter shtick, and then you have a bunch of lower key spells that don't fit this idea at all. Sorcerers wouldn't be all that unhappy taking just dispel magic, or just haste, or just, if they had the option, glibness. The beguiler is seriously advantaged here, and in a way that does not lie precisely in any sort of narrow niche.

You also list dread necromancer as just a minionmancer, but if you look at fifth level spells for example, you see stuff like magic jar, greater dispel magic, cloudkill, and a whole pile of other spells that have nothing at all to do with minionmancy. And they also get excellent minionmancy. That's the weird thing about these classes. They frequently get a pile of spells that outstrips the utility of a reasonably optimized sorcerer list even if you exclude everything you'd consider too trapped in an individual niche. But they also do incredibly within that niche, which makes the comparison look pretty silly at some level ranges.

Segev

2019-04-30, 03:32 PM

I still just have no idea where this idea comes from. Like, you list the beguiler's "shtick" as enchanter/rogue. But you look at, say, third level spells, and dispel magic, haste, and slow are sitting right there as spells not remotely connected to that idea. Glibness too bypasses the biggest weakness of the enchanter shtick, and then you have a bunch of lower key spells that don't fit this idea at all. Sorcerers wouldn't be all that unhappy taking just dispel magic, or just haste, or just, if they had the option, glibness. The beguiler is seriously advantaged here, and in a way that does not lie precisely in any sort of narrow niche.

You also list dread necromancer as just a minionmancer, but if you look at fifth level spells for example, you see stuff like magic jar, greater dispel magic, cloudkill, and a whole pile of other spells that have nothing at all to do with minionmancy. And they also get excellent minionmancy. That's the weird thing about these classes. They frequently get a pile of spells that outstrips the utility of a reasonably optimized sorcerer list even if you exclude everything you'd consider too trapped in an individual niche. But they also do incredibly within that niche, which makes the comparison look pretty silly at some level ranges.

Points granted. On the Dread Necromancer, that's personal bias: if a necromancer isn't doing his job as a minionmancer, the rest is worthless because he's not really a necromancer. Sure, he can do other stuff, and that's nice. But the minionmancy is what I care about.

On the Beguiler, yes, he can also do competent countermagic, and he's not pigeonholed to JUST mind-whammy and backstabbing. But those are where he excels. IF that's what you want to build, of course you go Beguiler over Sorcerer. IF that's not what you want to build, there may be reason to go Sorcerer over Beguiler.

Anthrowhale

2019-04-30, 03:53 PM

...
Your agency is confused, but yes the goal is a warmage-by-sorcerer, not the best possible sorcerer.

Chill Touch is better than Combust. It's untyped damage, comes with a debuff, no CL cap, and it's lower level, so it's easier to apply metamagic.

I'm confused by this. Chill Touch does 1d6 to caster level targets that you can touch. Are you suggesting that you can touch the same target many times in the round of casting? I don't think that works. Are you suggesting touching again and again over multiple rounds? This also does not work as the spell is instantaneous.

Grease certainly doesn't control very much of the battlefield.
Experiences seem to differ here. I've often been in situations where a 10' square fills a bottleneck.

Body Blaze and Glitterdust don't come online until after the warmage has 3rd level spells. Glitterdust is good, but is it better than Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm combined?

I'd say 'yes'. It targets a will save, which is typically lower than a fortitude save, it's lower level, and it doesn't take two actions to cast. My goal here was to have a spell testing each save, which a warmage lacks.

Body Blaze is, uh, not good. Especially since you don't have Tumble or any way to boost movement speed.

I obviously disagree here. A shapeable wall of fire seems like it would have a fair bit of use in my experience. The comment about move speed is valid though---we haven't really gone into items.

I would pick any of Haste, Suggestion, Sleet Storm, or Dispel Magic over it, personally. If you're working with PWP then Sleet Storm would be my pick—it's great at delaying enemies while the damage over time ticks down.

Haste, Suggestion, and Dispel Magic are all good spells, but the goal here is warmage-by-sorcerer. Sleet Storm is a reasonable choice, but it's a bit redundant with Grease.

I'd probably take something like Attune Gem, Fell Drain, Jungle Veteran, Shape Soulmeld, Sickening Grasp, or Spellstrike.

By Spellstrike, do you mean Arcane Strike? These are reasonable choices. Twin spell is mostly a waste at level 9, but it becomes good later. Furthermore with Celerity already in play, the warmage is already falling behind a damage curve in my understanding.

My usual 32-point buy is Str 12/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 8/Cha 16.

Quick Recovery relies on a Will save. At level 3, this is +2 for the warmage (vs. DC ... 11?) and +4 for the Sorcerer so the Sorcerer fails to recover 30% of the time while the warmage fails 40% of the time.

Thurbane

2019-04-30, 03:54 PM

In terms of utility among the fixed list casters, they certainly learned their lesson with the Warmage. The Dread Necro and especially the Beguiler get a lot of spells beyond their "niche".

From a game design perspective, I would (and have) and questioned some of the spells that pop up on the Beguiler list. Also, being Int base seemed out of line with the other spontaneous casters that had come before.

Fun fact: in my (admittedly very low op, especially at the time) group, after the first person played a Beguiler, they got a hard ban from other DMs in the group for a couple of campaign. They were perceived as being "too good" and stealing the role of the Rogue.

eggynack

2019-04-30, 04:01 PM

On the Beguiler, yes, he can also do competent countermagic, and he's not pigeonholed to JUST mind-whammy and backstabbing. But those are where he excels. IF that's what you want to build, of course you go Beguiler over Sorcerer. IF that's not what you want to build, there may be reason to go Sorcerer over Beguiler.
I find that "may" at the end there really telling. In particular, it implies that the inverse of what you said is the truth. The beguiler has a massive variety of spells that let them do great in a ton of situations. But a sorcerer is capable of existing within some niche that they do better at than the beguiler. Beguilers are the generalist, with sorcerers as the specialist (within the context of this comparison). Sorcerers aren't better than beguilers at anything except their specific shtick, one which is selected by the player. At least at early and mid levels.

Cosi

2019-04-30, 05:39 PM

I'm less concerned about the level of the effect than I am what the effects are. There are abilities that are OP for there level compared to other options, like Alterself-duplicates a well regarded 3rd level spell(Fly)+ other effects, White Raven Tactics-As good as Time Stands Still a 9th level maneuver or Shadow Evocation for shadowcasters, does what a 5th level spell does for Sorcerer.

I mean, yeah, there are better or worse effects, but all those things I listed are decent-to-good Sorcerer spells, and animate dead gets a massive buff as a Dread Necromancer -- once you get Undead Mastery, they're the best undead minion masters in the game, but the Cleric getting animate dead at 5th is quite nice -- and enervation is something the Sorcerer side was specifically calling out a Sorcerer advantage. You're not getting more mileage out of your 1 4th level spell than those three, and the Dread Necromancer still gets others.

This is non-trivial as an expense, considering how many of these are "downtime spells." They're essentially spells known eaten that will never see direct play; only the effects.

This is another place the fixed-list casters benefit from their casting mechanic. Normal spontaneous casters can't afford to spend resources on minionmancy unless its insane (planar binding) or doubles as an offensive spell (dominate person). The Beguiler and Dread Necromancer get minionmancy, and offensive spells, and utility. Yes, those spells are probably individually worse than the best Sorcerer ones, but they cover much more ground much more quickly.

Four pages of discussion and you think the only person I could be replying to is you?

It seems like you should have specified who you were replying to, instead of talking vaguely about "people in this thread" then getting angry when someone in this thread assumed you might be talking about them.

I'm pretty sure it's nothing. Like no one bothers with rouse because you can already wake multiple people up as a standard action, or even a free one if stealth isn't needed, without using a spell slot.

Yes, rouse is a very bad spell. That's why I picked it for an example, because by picking a very bad spell, we can avoid the argument where someone insists that Sorcerers would definitely spend one of the four 3rd level spells they get ever on clairaudience/clairvoyance and get to the point of the argument. Which is that Beguilers have a fundamentally different casting mechanic than Sorcerers, and that just looking at a list of spells that might be individually weaker than the best Sorcerer spells at a given level is missing the point. Because the fixed-list casters are characters who actually benefit from spontaneous casting. They have large lists of spells, and they can leverage otherwise-marginal spells because they don't give anything up to have them available.

The other classes have the same problem when it comes to party play. Just about everything the beguiler can do can be performed by the thief role. Like why worry about dominated minions walking into a magic circle against evil if you used mundane skills to charm them?

Uh, what? The Beguiler is the thief role. It's just flat out the best class in the entire game in that niche, and by a big margin. It gets all the skills you need to do mundane minionmancy, and having access to the charm line makes it better rather than worse, because charm makes people friendly and then you only need to hit DC 20 to get them to helpful.

In a party dynamic the sorcerer has an even larger chance to shine because he is one level, or one retrain, away from covering a weakness the party has. He's just a slower wizard like that.

And a competent Beguiler is ten minutes away from covering a weakness (substitute domain + Prestige Domain). He's like a faster Wizard. But, yes, the Sorcerer is better, because by not filling the thief role, he doesn't conflict with the guy who will definitely try to play a Rogue, instead of playing something else when you show up with a caster that does everything the Rogue does except DPS but better.

They frequently get a pile of spells that outstrips the utility of a reasonably optimized sorcerer list even if you exclude everything you'd consider too trapped in an individual niche.

It really can't be understated how utterly the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer wipe the floor with the Sorcerer outside of high level or high optimization scenarios. Up to 5th level spells, there's just no contest unless you assume the most broken readings of polymorph and no minionmancy from the fixed-list casters. Even celerity is actually fairly weak at 8th level, as it's mostly less resource-efficient than just casting a 4th level "I win" spell, which a Sorcerer who learned celerity cannot do.

IF that's what you want to build, of course you go Beguiler over Sorcerer. IF that's not what you want to build, there may be reason to go Sorcerer over Beguiler.

There may be. But there also may not be. Certainly, if your concept involves a specific spell that the Beguiler can't get easily, like polymorph, or if you're playing something that doesn't have many free levels, you may want to go Sorcerer. But as a straight up caster, the Beguiler beats the Sorcerer to hell and back unless you assume the Sorcerer gets all its tricks and the Beguiler gets none of its.

Beguilers are the generalist, with sorcerers as the specialist

Someone else said this earlier. I disagreed with it then, and I disagree with it now. The power of the Sorcerer -- at low, mid, and high optimization -- is getting to pick spells from a range of niches. If you focus on a single niche, even one the fixed-list casters can't do, you're just going to end up worse as you're a specialist whose worse in your specialty, and doesn't have the ancillary abilities Beguilers and Dread Necromancers do. To pull out ahead, you have to take advantage of the fact that it's as easy for you to go silent image => scorching ray => stinking cloud => polymorph as summon monster I => summon monster II => summon monster III => summon monster IV. They're both generalists, they just end up there in different ways. The fixed-list casters get a large number of narrow spells, while the Sorcerer gets a smaller number of broader spells.

SLOTHRPG95

2019-04-30, 06:08 PM

From a game design perspective, I would (and have) and questioned some of the spells that pop up on the Beguiler list. Also, being Int base seemed out of line with the other spontaneous casters that had come before.

I find the latter to be the most jarring from a game design perspective. That's something I've houseruled before, switching it to Cha to match the other spontaneous casters. And quite frankly, Beguilers have plenty of skill points even without heavy Int investment being encouraged by it being their casting stat.

Fun fact: in my (admittedly very low op, especially at the time) group, after the first person played a Beguiler, they got a hard ban from other DMs in the group for a couple of campaign. They were perceived as being "too good" and stealing the role of the Rogue.

That's not so uncommon for fixed-list casters, I've found. I've played at two different tables where the Warmage (agreed by most here to be the weakest of the three) was banned for "doing the sorcerer's job, only better." Needless to say, these were really low op tables, where it was assumed you'd only be playing a sorcerer if you wanted to spam blasting spells all day long.

Troacctid

2019-04-30, 06:15 PM

eggynack

2019-04-30, 06:51 PM

Someone else said this earlier. I disagreed with it then, and I disagree with it now. The power of the Sorcerer -- at low, mid, and high optimization -- is getting to pick spells from a range of niches.
Yeah, I was speaking a little broadly there to mirror the language that was being used. Sorcerers definitely get their power in variety. What I'm saying, I suppose, is that sorcerers get their power relative to beguilers in the fact that they are superior in some set of specific categories. Beguilers can do a lot of things, but they also can't really do certain things, and sorcerers can be better at that second group of things. Segev was initially posing it as beguilers being better if and only if you want to do this enchanter rogue thing. If sorcerers merely may be more effective if you have certain desires, then that points the opposite direction.

Anthrowhale

2019-04-30, 09:06 PM

You make that many attacks in the single standard action. RC 136.
It seems difficult to take advantage of this.

You can't hold the charge on a multitouch touch spell.
all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

So, you must be surrounded by enemies, get the spell off, and then touch attack each of them for 1d6 damage + 1 Str Fort Neg. Fireburst seems like a more straightforward approach although it is level 2.

No, it's a feat from Dragon #311. Lets you add the concussive template to your spells so anyone damaged by 'em has to make a Balance check or fall prone.

Spellstrike certainly looks good.

At level 3 it's +4 for the warmage (remember Iron Will) vs. DC 14 (10 + half your level + Cha) so 45% fail rate. The sorcerer is at +6 vs. DC 15, so 40% fail rate. Close enough for horseshoes, I'd say.
There's something confusing here.

If someone was hitting you with Anvil of Thunder and they chose to use less than their full strength in the attack, would you save against their full strength ability modifier? Or the reduced modifier? Logically, a fighter could hit with less than full strength and it would be the strength used which matters, down to strength 13 which is a minimum as imposed by prerequisites. On the other hand, I don't know of an explicit rule saying that you can use less than your full attribute. Maybe this exists somewhere?

There is no Cha constraint on the application of Reserves of Strength, so it seems you should be able to inflict it on yourself with a Cha bonus of +0 or possibly even -5 if you can control the "application" of your Cha to RoS.

Sleven

2019-04-30, 09:11 PM

As long as the fixed-list casters have more than one kind of effect at any given level, they're still ahead of the Sorcerer even after deduplication. For example, at spell level 4 the Dread Necromancer gets animate dead (minionmancy, and it's super good for them because of Undead Mastery), enervation (a single target debuff, and specifically called out as something that supposedly makes Sorcerers better than fixed-list casters), and evard's black tentacles (BFC). Even if you assume that the value from all their other spells is zero -- which is absurd -- that's still more 4th level options than the Sorcerer will get until 11th level

False. The problem is, none of those spells can hold a candle to the versatility and power of Polymorph. That's going to be every intelligent sorcerer's 8th level pick, so let's cut the crap. If a sorcerer can use a couple of its lower level spells to do what a fixed list caster does, but also gets access to spells at its highest level that are leagues above what the others have access to, that's a win for the sorcerer.

and the spells are good enough that low or even mid op Sorcerers aren't going to be picking better ones, meaning they keep ahead into high levels.

Why do we care about the moroncerer? This is a forum supposedly known for its optimization.

I mean, aside from dropping haste on a bunch of charmed/Diplomancied/dominated brutes. And against many mind-affecting immune enemies, specifically anything mindless, silent image is an instant win. And that's without considering anything but the base class. At lower levels of optimization you can do something like Arcane Disciple (Fire) + Fiery Burst for consistent damage while their target is locked down, and at high optimization you just shuffle around your spells to get blasting or summoning or whatever you want to counter these enemies with.

This is an oft-held misconception, also said of Enchanters and Bards. Less so of Necromancers, likely due to having more direct options. But a Beguiler's response to mindless foes is his mind-controlled minions. No, he's not doing a darned thing directly to that couple of zombies, but his three charmed orcs or ogres will make quick work of them.

The class is dead in the water against 5/15 (1/3) of the monster types in core. This is an issue. Don't pretend campaigns where the problem is an undead infestation, a mageocracy that utilizes a construct army, etc. aren't common enough for this to be a salient point. These games are more or less beguiler need not apply. What are you going to do in those scenarios? Mind control all the low level NPCs or your own friends and allies? Meanwhile, I can't think of a single campaign scenario where a sorcerer is relegated to stick in the mud sans one where arcane spellcasting has stopped working.

And this isn't even getting into the fact that spells that allow saves are increasingly worse as the level of optimization increases. It's far easier to increase saves than it is to increase DCs. Guess what beguilers have? A bunch of spells that allow saving throws, with the occasional gift like Solid Fog. This presents a problem in scenarios where you just need damage and 50/50s are too high of a risk. In a significant number of those scenarios, limp-wristed Fiery Burst ain't gonna cut it.

At any level of optimization where a Sorcerer is picking a 4th level spell at 7th level, the Beguiler is doing something like Divine Oracle + Eternal Wand of substitute domain to get four or five extra spells at every level, with enough flexibility that two or three will be covering whatever they think the biggest holes in their arsenal are. No one seems to consider that as the Sorcerer optimizes, the Beguiler also optimizes.

The Beguiler gets unquestionably RAW off-list spell swapping at level 1. If you're playing a game where the Sorcerer is doing whatever trick it is you're talking about (I notice you haven't bothered to name it, which makes me suspect it's less unquestionable than you're claiming), the Beguiler is using Apprentice to just be a better Sorcerer. Getting the two best Sorcerer spells of each level when the Sorcerer gets them, and maintaining her massive lead in spells known lets the Beguiler win easily.

Assuming the Apprentice trick works the way you think it does, why would a sorcerer have any problem doing the same at level one? Plus, with or without the off-list interpretation of Apprentice, the sorcerer can combine it with bloodline feats, mother cyst, cerebrotic blot, etc. and retraining options to expand their spells known list indefinitely. After all: when the beguiler optimizes, the sorcerer optimizes as well, right? And best of all, this sorcerer doesn't feel the need to PrC or waste valuable actions and spell slots on substitute domain.

I also noticed you steering clear of sorcerous racial options. Is that a conceded win for the core class?

The best Dragonpacts are mostly giving you spells the Beguiler gets for free. And don't pretend you're getting the custom ones in any world where the Beguiler isn't going to be allowed to go all-out on list expansion.

This just misses the point of Dragonpacts. It makes those spells spell-like, not unlike another sorcerous option: the Phaerimm.

This is non-trivial as an expense, considering how many of these are "downtime spells."

Actually, you're making my point that it is a trivial cost because the sorcerer can take downtime spells and still have a better list than the dread necro. Or it can spend WBL and have an even better one yet.

Hell, sorcerers are even better at rebuking undead if they decide to play as a dragon. Since they can calculate their effective turning level using their caster level in addition to full cleric list access.

Off-list spell-swapping? Can you elaborate and point me at the source, please? This sounds interesting.

Mato got it correct. Hopefully the other guy doesn't see it though, because I prefer when he thinks I'm making things up so he can try and avoid addressing the point.

Sorcerers wouldn't be all that unhappy taking just dispel magic, or just haste, or just, if they had the option, glibness. The beguiler is seriously advantaged here, and in a way that does not lie precisely in any sort of narrow niche.

I don't know where you're getting this idea, because I would be extremely unhappy if I had to pick one of those spells as my only 3rd level. There are far better spells that none of the fixed list casters have access to. From core alone Shrink Item and Explosive Runes come to mind. They're the two highest damaging 3rd level spells with additional utility and downtime flexibility. Polymorph is the same thing at the next spell level. So no, a sorcerer shouldn't care about the fact that a beguiler has Solid Fog and Slow and etc. while he only has Web or Sleet Storm, because he also has something much better that the beguiler doesn't.

This is why the only real discussion is what level this shift happens. I think it's at 4th level spells, and I don't think anyone's refuted my case. In fact, I seem to see Cosi (begrudgingly? unwittingly?) agreeing with me in his most recent post addressing Polymorph.

Uh, what? The Beguiler is the thief role. It's just flat out the best class in the entire game in that niche, and by a big margin. It gets all the skills you need to do mundane minionmancy, and having access to the charm line makes it better rather than worse, because charm makes people friendly and then you only need to hit DC 20 to get them to helpful.

Any properly built cleric or archivist windmill dunks on the beguiler in the skill department. Since you opened up the playing field.

Cosi

2019-04-30, 10:11 PM

False. The problem is, none of those spells can hold a candle to the versatility and power of Polymorph.

polymorph is good, but massively overrated. I would rather have the Beguiler's army of minions + haste or the Dread Necromancer's army of minions + evard's black tenatacles. Not to mention that using polymorph is a nightmare of a rules debate that puts all the arguments people make about how maybe Prestige Domains or Apprentice don't work to shame. By the time you've figured out what polymorph does, the Beguiler has convinced the DM to let him worship the Sovereign Host and buy an Eternal Wand of substitute domain, meaning every day he picks his favorite two fourth level spells from a list that includes minor creation, scrying, divine power, dimension door, and wall of fire. And that's just at 4th level. Plus all the baseline spells he gets. No, none of those are individually as good as polymorph. But they're infinitely more flexible, particularly in downtime.

The class is dead in the water against 5/15 (1/3) of the monster types in core.

It has been explained to you at length that this is not true. And one third of monster types is different from one third of monsters. Most high level enemies don't no-sell the Beguiler, even before considering the wealth of options they have that aren't mind-affecting.

This is an issue. Don't pretend campaigns where the problem is an undead infestation, a mageocracy that utilizes a construct army, etc. aren't common enough for this to be a salient point.

The Beguiler would love to face an army of mindless enemies. He can beat all of them with 1st level spells while the Sorcerer wastes his time shrinking objects and trying to punch out an entire army of golems. The Beguiler's only glaring weaknesses are creatures that are immune to mind-affecting and either not mindless or possessed of some kind of senses that beat illusions. And even then it gets some things that are relevant.

why would a sorcerer have any problem doing the same at level one?

Okay, sure, let's do that. At each level, the Sorcerer and the Beguiler swap whatever spell they like least for any spell in the game. They reach 8th level, and the Sorcerer wants polymorph (as, I have been told any non "moroncerer" would). He takes it as his one 4th level spell, and I guess swaps shrink item for explosive runes or something. The Beguiler gets 11 4th level spells, swaps mass whelm for polymorph and can now use the Sorcerer's best trick, and also charm monster, solid fog, greater mirror image, and freedom of movement. There's absolutely nothing stopping the Sorcerer from using Apprentice in the exact same way as the Beguiler. It just doesn't solve their problems (lack of spells known) but does solve the Beguiler's (stuck with some weak spells on their list).

bloodline feats, mother cyst, cerebrotic blot,

Bloodline Feats and Mother Cyst add to your spells known and work for the Beguiler as well. Once again, you're not getting ahead by adding the same things to both lists. The Sorcerer wins by convincing people that the best spell is better than eight decent spells. If both characters decide to prioritize knowing lots of spells, that plays to the Beguiler's strengths.

I also noticed you steering clear of sorcerous racial options. Is that a conceded win for the core class?

The fact that a monster race uses your class for its innate casting is an advantage for the monster, not the class. If you can convince me that any of those races want to take any Sorcerer levels (rather than PrC levels, or just advancing by HD), maybe you have a point. But "dragons have Sorcerer casting, therefore Sorcerer is good" is about as compelling as "dragons take Fighter Bonus Feats, therefore Fighter is good".

Mato got it correct. Hopefully the other guy doesn't see it though, because I prefer when he thinks I'm making things up so he can try and avoid addressing the point.

Until you've cited something, you haven't made a point. And this isn't an especially good point, now that I look at it in detail. You can swap some of your spells for other spells. That doesn't really help the Sorcerer, unless you do it often enough to pretend to be a Wizard, which runs up a huge XP bill. And spending your 5th level spell known to tune your 4th level spells known -- which are already freely picked off the best list in the game -- is a huge waste of time. If you find yourself wanting to spend several hundred XP re-picking spells instead of taking teleport, cloudkill, or lesser planar binding, you've built your Sorcerer wrong.

But swapping your spells for other spells is great for the Beguiler. In your effort to prove the superiority of the Sorcerer, you've provided the fixed-list casters with a tool that mitigates their biggest weakness. With this in play, I'm fairly sure the Warmage is better than the Sorcerer, because it has between two and three times as many spells known when it gets a new level of spells as the Sorcerer gets ever. You remember that big list of spells someone gave as reasons to prefer the Sorcerer? He still gets one of them, but the Warmage gets most or all of them. I think I'll probably have to start bringing this up as reason the Beguiler is good. It's a more expensive version of Apprentice, but one that even Beguiler critics agree works.

There are definitely things you can point to for the Sorcerer being better. In a high-op game with restricted sources, it pulls ahead at mid or high levels. But swapping spells one-for-one is a win for the fixed-list casters, not the Sorcerer.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-04-30, 11:08 PM

I mean, does it though? Dominate person is a powerhouse, even if none of the other 5th level spells are individually impressive. Greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, shadow walk, and true seeing are excellent 6ths. 7ths are underwhelming, but 8ths include demand, mind blank, and moment of prescience.You can't just list a bunch of spells and pretend they are near the best picks for their level. Yes, higher level spells are impressive, but something like Demand is decidedly not an impressive use of an 8th level spell slot. Is it nice that the Beguiler has it when he needs it? Sure. Are Mind Blank and Greater Dispel must-haves? Yes. But it's still true that at every spell level the Beguiler's base list is missing more and more of the top picks.

Someone else said this earlier. I disagreed with it then, and I disagree with it now. The power of the Sorcerer -- at low, mid, and high optimization -- is getting to pick spells from a range of niches. If you focus on a single niche, even one the fixed-list casters can't do, you're just going to end up worse as you're a specialist whose worse in your specialty, and doesn't have the ancillary abilities Beguilers and Dread Necromancers do. To pull out ahead, you have to take advantage of the fact that it's as easy for you to go silent image => scorching ray => stinking cloud => polymorph as summon monster I => summon monster II => summon monster III => summon monster IV. They're both generalists, they just end up there in different ways. The fixed-list casters get a large number of narrow spells, while the Sorcerer gets a smaller number of broader spells.I think we're splitting hairs on what's a specialist or not. A DN is often built as a minion specialist, but he still has other things he can do. The same will be true of a sorcerer who spends feats and other build resources maximizing the effectiveness of a few key spells. He'll take spells known on things to shore up his weaknesses (as best he can) but he's going to focus on getting really good at a few things. Whereas a Beguiler, by dint of being a FLC and not having an obvious ultra-spell to focus on, tends to spend those build resources getting more spells known.

As an aside, I'm not sure what rules debates there are to Polymorph; the RAW seems pretty straightforward to me as long as one picks straightforward, valid forms.

eggynack

2019-04-30, 11:09 PM

I don't know where you're getting this idea, because I would be extremely unhappy if I had to pick one of those spells as my only 3rd level. There are far better spells that none of the fixed list casters have access to. From core alone Shrink Item and Explosive Runes come to mind. They're the two highest damaging 3rd level spells with additional utility and downtime flexibility. Polymorph is the same thing at the next spell level. So no, a sorcerer shouldn't care about the fact that a beguiler has Solid Fog and Slow and etc. while he only has Web or Sleet Storm, because he also has something much better that the beguiler doesn't.
I was getting this idea from the fact that they're solid spells. Not best in the game, certainly, but perfectly reasonable mid-optimization options. This situation, one where sorcerers don't just pick the exact best spells all the time, is clearly slanted towards the beguiler for this reason. I also, you may note, spent a lot of time evaluating the comparison with higher op sorcerers. I'm not sure why you've ignored that.

Leaving that aside, are you seriously claiming that explosive runes is better than dispel magic, glibness, haste, slow, displacement, arcane sight, and just a whole bunch of other spells? Frankly, I'm not sure I'd take runes over, like, just glibness. Shrink item is better, but still, compared to dispel magic+glibness? Or those two and haste? It just doesn't seem like a good comparison for the sorcerer. At all.

This is why the only real discussion is what level this shift happens. I think it's at 4th level spells, and I don't think anyone's refuted my case. In fact, I seem to see Cosi (begrudgingly? unwittingly?) agreeing with me in his most recent post addressing Polymorph.
Of course that's the only question. Just about everyone agrees that it happens at some point. Mato, your apparent agreement buddy, seemed to be claiming that it happens way before 4th level spells, maybe as early as first level. His claim was ludicrously sorcerer favored.

That said, yeah, polymorph is good, but those eleven spells good? Again, super skeptical. Solid fog, freedom of movement, greater mirror image, greater invisibility, charm monster, these are all very strong spells. And you get others. You're using one of the best spells in the game to fight a pile of great spells and a pile of good to mediocre spells. Again, not really sorcerer favored.

The class is dead in the water against 5/15 (1/3) of the monster types in core.

Finally, Cosi already said it but it's worth repeating. Are you kidding me? There's been post after post after post after post debunking this nonsense, because the beguiler has spell after spell after spell after spell to deal with creatures that are immune to mind-affecting. I'm not sure how seriously you expect me to take your arguments about beguilers when you say this kind of thing. Just look at, say, 2nd level spells. Daze monster, detect thoughts, hypnotic pattern, stay the hand, touch of idiocy, vertigo, and whelming blast are mind-affecting. That leaves 12 separate spells that these monster types are not immune to at all. And those seven spells are kinda mediocre too, so what you're left with is the good stuff. This claim doesn't make any sense at all.

Troacctid

2019-05-01, 04:21 AM

It seems difficult to take advantage of this.

You can't hold the charge on a multitouch touch spell.

So, you must be surrounded by enemies, get the spell off, and then touch attack each of them for 1d6 damage + 1 Str Fort Neg. Fireburst seems like a more straightforward approach although it is level 2.
Why would you need to be surrounded by enemies? There's nothing stopping you from hitting the same enemy a bunch of times with all the attacks.

There's something confusing here.

If someone was hitting you with Anvil of Thunder and they chose to use less than their full strength in the attack, would you save against their full strength ability modifier? Or the reduced modifier? Logically, a fighter could hit with less than full strength and it would be the strength used which matters, down to strength 13 which is a minimum as imposed by prerequisites. On the other hand, I don't know of an explicit rule saying that you can use less than your full attribute. Maybe this exists somewhere?

There is no Cha constraint on the application of Reserves of Strength, so it seems you should be able to inflict it on yourself with a Cha bonus of +0 or possibly even -5 if you can control the "application" of your Cha to RoS.
It does pretty definitively add your Charisma to the save DC. I don't think you're gonna get out of it without actually reducing your Charisma score (which seems bad).

You can't just list a bunch of spells and pretend they are near the best picks for their level. Yes, higher level spells are impressive, but something like Demand is decidedly not an impressive use of an 8th level spell slot. Is it nice that the Beguiler has it when he needs it? Sure. Are Mind Blank and Greater Dispel must-haves? Yes. But it's still true that at every spell level the Beguiler's base list is missing more and more of the top picks.
Is it though?

Cosi

2019-05-01, 06:09 AM

As an aside, I'm not sure what rules debates there are to Polymorph; the RAW seems pretty straightforward to me as long as one picks straightforward, valid forms.

Off the top of my head:

1. What size of creature can you turn into? Depending on how you understand the spelll's inheritance from alter self as working, there are multiple possible answers.
2. Dire Wolf Fu or Octopus Fu -- do you use your attack routine with the creature's attacks, or the creature's attack routine?
3. What happens if your CON score changes after changing shape?

But the real rules issue with polymorph is that the rules have been rewritten in half a dozen places, and it's not clear whether some of them have any effect, or whether some of them are even canon. polymorph inherits from alter self, is effected by the Polymorph Subschool rules in the PHB II, and is subject to various alterations by the Rules Compendium. Plus errata to all those things. Then there are the various web articles, Sage Rulings, and FAQ answers, which are written by the authors of the edition and claim to be authoritative, but are arguably not a part of the rules, according to the standards established by the rules. Do you count those when the conflict with the books? Do you count them when they discuss something on which the books are silent? Do you use them to clarify ambiguities?

Now, even after you hash all that out, polymorph is still likely to be pretty good, but it's also unlikely that any particular trick will be found to work. And there's a high chance you'll end up with an ad hoc ruling that isn't as good as you expect (plus, the spell is frankly overrated in most cases).

Segev

2019-05-01, 10:00 AM

I'm confused by this. Chill Touch does 1d6 to caster level targets that you can touch. Are you suggesting that you can touch the same target many times in the round of casting? I don't think that works. Are you suggesting touching again and again over multiple rounds? This also does not work as the spell is instantaneous.The spell is, but you can cast touch spells and hold their charge for later. And chill touch uniquely specifies that you can use it on multiple creatures (1/CL). Thus, the charge isn't dissipated until you touch the full number of targets, or you do one of the many other acts that can cause a touch spell to dissipate.

It is, of course, much better on a build that can manage multiple attacks in a round (Magus, in PF, can use this really well with Spellstrike and a full attack), but if you're not at a level where 1d6 plus a save-or-lose-1-str is too weak to spend your attack action(s) on, it's good for spell economy.

It's one of the more interesting spells in the game for how it can remain relevant as a damage and debuff even to higher level, though its DC suffers a bit (so the 1d6 necrotic damage is the most reliable bit).

By Spellstrike, do you mean Arcane Strike? These are reasonable choices. Twin spell is mostly a waste at level 9, but it becomes good later. Furthermore with Celerity already in play, the warmage is already falling behind a damage curve in my understanding.Spellstrike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Magus/#TOC-Spellstrike-Su-) is a Magus class feature that is what elven bladesingers in earlier editions had. It basically lets you off-hand a spell in a TWF style, while main-handing a weapon. With a touch spell, then, spellstrike lets you cast, make the touch attack, and still get your full attack action off with your main weapon. (at -2 to hit)

With the Magus's ability to channel spells through their weapon, this means they can cast chill touch and get the free attack touch spells give you, then use their regular full attack with their main weapon to keep channeling chill touch as long as their CL holds out. At second level, this happens to exactly fill their full attack quota: one attack with the spell's free (off-hand) touch attack, and one attack with their on-hand weapon channeling the touch spell effect.

It can be taken advantage of other ways, but the Magus definitely has the most effective ability to wield it.

I find that "may" at the end there really telling. In particular, it implies that the inverse of what you said is the truth. The beguiler has a massive variety of spells that let them do great in a ton of situations. But a sorcerer is capable of existing within some niche that they do better at than the beguiler. Beguilers are the generalist, with sorcerers as the specialist (within the context of this comparison). Sorcerers aren't better than beguilers at anything except their specific shtick, one which is selected by the player. At least at early and mid levels.Like I've said, I don't have a horse in the "which is better?" race. My sole point is that both have their place.

This does raise the question, now, whether a Beguiler is a better "spontaneous general caster" than a sorcerer is. We normally consider a party with a sorcerer filling the primary caster role to still be in the same general niche as a party with a wizard doing so; is a Beguiler really filling that same "primary caster" niche as effectively, when he's also very clearly able to stand in entirely for the "primary rogue" role? Is a 3-man party who takes a Beguiler not feeling the lack on either front (save action economy)?

The class is dead in the water against 5/15 (1/3) of the monster types in core. This is an issue. Don't pretend campaigns where the problem is an undead infestation, a mageocracy that utilizes a construct army, etc. aren't common enough for this to be a salient point. These games are more or less beguiler need not apply. What are you going to do in those scenarios? Mind control all the low level NPCs or your own friends and allies? Meanwhile, I can't think of a single campaign scenario where a sorcerer is relegated to stick in the mud sans one where arcane spellcasting has stopped working.It might take some prep work, but hunting down minion-able things to bring into your fight against the undead is not particularly hard.

Unless you're making an argument that only a mailman sorcerer or warmage can stand up to the undead horde, the beguiler can pull out enough minionmancy and battlefield control that he's not useless. Would I want to play one over a more purpose-built caster in such situations? Probably not, but then, I like playing necromancers, so a dread necro or a sorcerer or wizard with command undead would almost certainly be my first choice, anyway.

I actually frustrated a DM once because my wizard kept a command undead prepared - just one - on the off chance we ran into some. It was a little niche, but it was one of those ways of quickly turning a fight around that was too useful to leave off. So when we encountered a ghost, the pseudo-charm effect of the spell on intelligent undead meant we could talk her down, find out what her problem was, and actually help out. The DM had planned for it to just be a fight, and that spell turned it into a side quest.

Actually, you're making my point that it is a trivial cost because the sorcerer can take downtime spells and still have a better list than the dread necro. Or it can spend WBL and have an even better one yet.WBL isn't an argument for any particular class; any class can do it. Commoners can do it!

You're going to need to defend that assertion - that sorcerers have a better list than the dread necro even while spending limited spells known on downtime-only spells - because that's what most of your opponents are claiming is false. Me, I don't really care, and roughly agree with you, but the expenditure of spell slots on downtime spells is still a HEAVY cost for sorcerers, and a strength for the fixed-list casters due to it not really costing them anything.

(By the way, this trick for inserting lines is cool, so thanks for revealing it to me!)

I think the major reason fixed-list casters seem better at being sorcerers than do sorcerers is that there was an implicit assumption that was never well-articulated in the design of sorcerers way back in 3.0: I think they expected more "themed" spell selection. You'd have sorcerers naturally themed towards particular backgrounds, backstories, etc., the way fictional "natural" casters tend to be: the fire mage, the ice mage, the master of the dead, the enchantress. But sorcerers have even less reason to specialize than wizards, and their limited spell selection pushes towards very careful generalization to maximize the versatility granted by their spontaneous casting mechanic.

Fixed-list casters are the focused mages that sorcerers were "meant" to be.

Sorcerers, meanwhile, are the wizard generalist vs. the fixed list casters' wizard specialists, and suffer in no small way from being largely unchanged from their 3.0 incarnation, when they were the newest experimental mechanic around and WotC was trying to be very careful to balance them while having very little idea what they were doing.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-05-01, 10:37 AM

1. It seems pretty clear to me that it inherits the Alter Self clause and you can't grow two sizes. So, no Treant or Hydra unless the target is already large. But even if this is ambiguous, using the spell to turn into something one size larger is not.
2. Natural weapons don't get iteratives. You get the creature's natural weapons from Alter Self and its [Ex] Special Attacks from Polymorph, meaning you tend to use the creature's listed attack routine when you're just using natural attacks; your examples are no exception. I'm not sure what's ambiguous here.
3. I agree this is ambiguous, but it's a niche case. I would personally rule that con-changing effects affect both the polymorphed form and the base form. This doesn't seem to be much worth arguing over, whereas build-defining feats and character choices are worth arguing over.

It's not the end-all spell, but it's an excellent Sorcerer spell for its versatility in one spell known and certainly one of the top level 4 spell options. It's also, at least IME, one of the more straightforward high-power options. You buff the BSF and watch him blenderize the baddies. A GM can go hunting for web articles or FAQ or stealth errata that doesn't take precedence, but he has to go looking for a fight to get one.

Mato

2019-05-01, 10:53 AM

I missed this one from before.

Chill Touch is better than Combust. It's untyped damage, comes with a debuff, no CL cap, and it's lower level, so it's easier to apply metamagic.And parching touch's constitution damage is better than chill touch's strength damage.

And I must admit I'm not sure that at level 12, over six rounds, with twelve successful touch attacks, and never using another spell in between, chill touch can deal as much damage as combust does in one round makes chill touch better than combust.

I think you should be replying to at least one person.
Color spray is actually on that list, given that it's not mind-affecting, I do when I specifically quote them, otherwise it's about my take of a generalized theme the thread shows. For example, your previous post committed to the same problems I brought up.

And I know it's wrong to say your entire post is incorrect because parts of it are incorrect. But can you at least check the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm), or maybe the lower right side of page 210 in the PHB, before trying to push colorspray's save-or-suck redundancy as being important because you didn't know it's a mind-affecting attack. And after demonstrating your "insanely inaccurate" knowledge of the beguiler's spells, you really shouldn't build off that to claim they are effective against an even more complicated data pool. :smallsigh:

Mage armor is also to as good as greater mage armor, or arguably greater mirror image or greater blink, and alter self already provides a higher natural armor bonus among several other important things. Such as being a better disguise self than disguise self and making expeditious retreat a joke. And did you know comprehend languages requires you to actively touch your target in a world full of daggers-to-the-face to even work and it doesn't allow you to speak their language or for them to understand anything that you tell them (which reduces the effectiveness of dominate). At least you did list one useful spell, silent image. No complaints about that one here.

So...you're attributing intellectual dishonesty to me twice over, at least once outright accusing me of lying.For the record, the only thing I have accused you of is overreacting. And then you base your reply on your overreaction instead of my post or my point.

Also trading with a clone of your self has the advantage that you still have access to it. For example, your simulacrum uses psychic reformation (another method) and then trades lesser restoration for magic missile, you gain the ability to directly cast any divine spell you want and you can still command someone to cast magic missile.

So the idea that Troacctid grabbed both isn't about building an optimized sorcerer that choose something like grease and PW:P, it's him demonstrating how the sorcerer can learn better spells at blasting than the warmage. ... For second level spells Troacctid sort of does the same thing. ... And I think that's because Troacctid is trying to build a warmage and not a decent sorcerer. The choices at level 6 & 7 seem extremely terrible because you are starting to realize just how much sorcerer stuff you are giving up. ... Troacctid also sticks to damage again with a party friendly nuke that can negate all of his enemies actions which to me completes the entire damage progression arc. Without using metamagics, the next ten levels of warmage will be spent never catching up to this benchmark. Go ahead and look, the warmage doesn't even break a 15d6 cap until polar ray which is a single target effect without built in turn-losing crowd control.
Your agency is confused, but yes the goal is a warmage-by-sorcerer, not the best possible sorcerer.Well I'm glad my confused "agency" was so accurate then. :smallamused:

You can't hold the charge on a multitouch touch spell.

Some touch spells, such as teleport and water walk, allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
And you just can't forget these either.

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action.

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge a touch spell during the turn when you cast it, you can hold the charge of the spell indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round until you successfully discharge the spell.:smallsmile:

polymorph is good, but massively overrated. I would rather have the Beguiler's army of minions + haste or the Dread Necromancer's army of minions + evard's black tenatacles.There are a lot of small debatable things you could waste time stretching out because you refuse to admit your losses. Like how you think polymorph is to overrated but rouse is useful is probably a clue about a limited and askewed prospective of D&D or whatever bones you have to pick with people. But those are just worthless semantics that waste everyone's time.

What ultimately matters is how <an example sorcerer that chooses to learn dominate monster, haste, animate dead, Evard's black tentacles, & polymorph> and your personal desire to argue doesn't it?

Leaving that aside, are you seriously claiming that explosive runes is better than dispel magic, glibness, haste, slow, displacement, arcane sight, and just a whole bunch of other spells? Frankly, I'm not sure I'd take runes over, like, just glibness. Shrink item is better, but still, compared to dispel magic+glibness? Well haste is about buffing the party to make it easier to kill an enemy, slow is about debuffing an enemy to make it easier to kill, displacement is about buffing your self so you can try to survive while the rest of the party tries killing the enemy, and explosive runes is about killing the enemy before they do anything. So yes. And since the combo requires dispel magic and Sleven mentioned his sorcerer example having it, why are you trying to say it dispel magic is better than dispel magic? Did you mean disjunction is better than dispel since even greater dispel can't break anything with a CL of 41 or higher? Printed monsters don't really go that high, plus it's not a beguiler spell anyway.

Actually, why did you even bother bringing up glibness anyway? Glibness doesn't provide a +30 bonus to the bluff skill anyway, it only provides a bonus to checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. You can't use it to feint, to hide, to deliver secrecy messages, to hide your alignment or thoughts, or to spam at-will extraordinary suggestion effects every round, or anything else. Like the second impression is a must have for for would be social beguilers, but glibness doesn't affect that check either. And when it comes to lying the DM always has the cop out that truth doesn't change a person's mind (see this thread) or convince them to do things they shouldn't. Plus it's an opposed check and barely anything printed has ranks in sense motive and bluff is such a ridiculously easy to buff charisma-based skill. Glibness is ok, if you're like the fifth guy in the party. But the discussion is about sorcerers vs fixed casters and I just keep getting this distinctive feeling what you are really trying to argue is a beguiler vs bard.

But the real rules issue with polymorph is that the rules have been rewritten in half a dozen places,As I was catching up this morning I just typed up a reply from your post on the previous page about how I didn't think you knew much about polymorph. Thanks for explaining why.

The rules you need to read are the polymorph entry in the PHB, which does kind of link back to alter self so it's just two entries. The SRD can work in a pinch but you really should read the actual rules entry. And the subschool printed in the RC, which is canon and I'm not even sure why you'd think otherwise, is a nice supplement. But most of what it says doesn't really apply to polymorph since the spell's actual entry is more specific and that entry in the RC even gives the courtesy of reminding you of that in case you forgot. :)

Segev

2019-05-01, 11:12 AM

Rapidly becoming off-topic, so this'll be my last word on it unless yet another new thread spawns, but chill touch clearly isn't intended for use on willing targets. So, either it actually allows you to touch up to CL creatures with touch attacks in a single round (making for some pretty impressive action economy), or its touch-ability persists for as long as you hold the charge (at least until you've touched CL creatures).

Troacctid

2019-05-01, 01:29 PM

RC 136 makes it abundantly clear that you make all the attacks as one standard action. The spell does not require them to all be against different creatures.

eggynack

2019-05-01, 01:35 PM

I do when I specifically quote them, otherwise it's about my take of a generalized theme the thread shows. For example, your previous post committed to the same problems I brought up.
My previous post in no regard committed to this stated problem of just arguing that a beguiler/DN/warmage team would be better than a sorcerer. I don't think there's a single post in this thread like that unless it's replying to someone explicitly claiming otherwise, and I'm not sure that even that sort of response exists. You say this is a generalized theme, but it's an incredibly specific sort of claim, and it should be justified by literally anything instead of literally nothing. Color spray doesn't even have anything to do with this situation, so I'm not all that sure why you're bringing it up.

And I know it's wrong to say your entire post is incorrect because parts of it are incorrect. But can you at least check the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm), or maybe the lower right side of page 210 in the PHB, before trying to push colorspray's save-or-suck redundancy as being important because you didn't know it's a mind-affecting attack. And after demonstrating your "insanely inaccurate" knowledge of the beguiler's spells, you really shouldn't build off that to claim they are effective against an even more complicated data pool. :smallsigh:

I was in error about the nature of a single spell on the beguiler list. You were in error about the nature of their entire list. I think I'm in a better position than you are here. I mean, geez, barely any important second level spells are mind-affecting.

Mage armor is also to as good as greater mage armor, or arguably greater mirror image or greater blink, and alter self already provides a higher natural armor bonus among several other important things. Such as being a better disguise self than disguise self and making expeditious retreat a joke. And did you know comprehend languages requires you to actively touch your target in a world full of daggers-to-the-face to even work and it doesn't allow you to speak their language or for them to understand anything that you tell them (which reduces the effectiveness of dominate). At least you did list one useful spell, silent image. No complaints about that one here.
Is your argument here seriously that higher level spells are better than lower level spells? These spells offer meaningful utility, which is a big deal given that you're also getting several of the best first level spells in the game.

Well haste is about buffing the party to make it easier to kill an enemy, slow is about debuffing an enemy to make it easier to kill, displacement is about buffing your self so you can try to survive while the rest of the party tries killing the enemy, and explosive runes is about killing the enemy before they do anything. So yes. And since the combo requires dispel magic and Sleven mentioned his sorcerer example having it, why are you trying to say it dispel magic is better than dispel magic? Did you mean disjunction is better than dispel since even greater dispel can't break anything with a CL of 41 or higher? Printed monsters don't really go that high, plus it's not a beguiler spell anyway.
Sorcerers get one third level spell at sixth level. I said that dispel magic would be a solid option for that. Slevin said, nope, one of my two main choices for that single slot is explosive runes. The sorcerer in this scenario does not have dispel magic. They only have explosive runes. You don't just get to have a ton of different spells.

Actually, why did you even bother bringing up glibness anyway? Glibness doesn't provide a +30 bonus to the bluff skill anyway, it only provides a bonus to checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. You can't use it to feint, to hide, to deliver secrecy messages, to hide your alignment or thoughts, or to spam at-will extraordinary suggestion effects every round, or anything else. Like the second impression is a must have for for would be social beguilers, but glibness doesn't affect that check either. And when it comes to lying the DM always has the cop out that truth doesn't change a person's mind (see this thread) or convince them to do things they shouldn't. Plus it's an opposed check and barely anything printed has ranks in sense motive and bluff is such a ridiculously easy to buff charisma-based skill. Glibness is ok, if you're like the fifth guy in the party. But the discussion is about sorcerers vs fixed casters and I just keep getting this distinctive feeling what you are really trying to argue is a beguiler vs bard.
I brought up glibness because convincing people of the truth of your words is extraordinarily powerful. You can fundamentally modify a person's view of reality, and do so about as much as you want with no restrictions. I'm not sure how that could possibly fail to influence someone's actions. The skill actively talks about influencing actions. Glibness is incredibly powerful, which is why I'm mentioning it.

Segev

2019-05-01, 01:59 PM

RC 136 makes it abundantly clear that you make all the attacks as one standard action. The spell does not require them to all be against different creatures.

Yow. That interpretation means that it's even more powerful on somebody who can make natural attacks, since touch spells can explicitly be delivered as part of a natural attack. You thought your monk/sorcerer was weak? He's applying Unarmed Strike damage +1d6 (+1 str damage on a failed save) to a number of attacks per round (at his full BAB, since it doesn't say otherwise) equal to his sorcerer caster level!

Troacctid

2019-05-01, 02:20 PM

Yow. That interpretation means that it's even more powerful on somebody who can make natural attacks, since touch spells can explicitly be delivered as part of a natural attack. You thought your monk/sorcerer was weak? He's applying Unarmed Strike damage +1d6 (+1 str damage on a failed save) to a number of attacks per round (at his full BAB, since it doesn't say otherwise) equal to his sorcerer caster level!
IIRC, the rules for that say the unarmed strike damage is dealt as extra damage, and any extra damage added to a spell is only added to the first attack that spell makes each round. So it's not quite as good as it sounds.

Thurbane

2019-05-01, 03:59 PM

1. It seems pretty clear to me that it inherits the Alter Self clause and you can't grow two sizes. So, no Treant or Hydra unless the target is already large. But even if this is ambiguous, using the spell to turn into something one size larger is not.

FWIW, the official FAQ says otherwise:

Alter self (PH 197), the base spell in the polymorph chain, says that the new form must be within one size category of your normal size. Is the same true of other spells in the chain?
Not necessarily, although the rules aren’t as clear as they could be. Polymorph, and any spell that refers back to it (such as polymorph any object), allows the new form to be of any size of Fine or greater. Shapechange specifically delineates its size limitations (Fine to Colossal), which is a much clearer way of saying the same thing.

Anthrowhale

2019-05-01, 04:05 PM

Why would you need to be surrounded by enemies? There's nothing stopping you from hitting the same enemy a bunch of times with all the attacks.

Understandings clearly differ here. Anytime someone relies on the RC, I think the question comes up: Do you believe Chill Touch suddenly became much better when the RC came out?

The touch is held until you have used up <level> touch attacks. This one seems incorrect since the the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) says:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell. Nevertheless, this seems to be a common interpretation as suggested here (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pps9?Chill-Touch-Clarification).
You can touch up to <level> creatures as part of the casting action. In terms of enumerated abilities, the SRD provides the ability to touch an unwilling subject and the ability to touch multiple willing subjects, but not the ability to touch multiple unwilling subjects. The FAQ (page 16) says you can make multiple simultaneous touches against unwilling subjects as well, consistent with RC page 136.
You can execute <level> touches against a single creature as part of the casting action. I don't see anything explicitly enabling this either in the FAQ or the RC so not allowed? Or implicitly allowed via no explicit restriction on targeting of the touches?

Overall it looks like a strange corner case with varied interpretations in practice. It probably should not be the cornerstone of an argument that warmages are better than sorcerers pretending to be warmages.

It does pretty definitively add your Charisma to the save DC. I don't think you're gonna get out of it without actually reducing your Charisma score (which seems bad).

Sure, the question is: which one? I don't know a rule saying that you can use less than a full ability, but it's pretty logical so it might exist somewhere. If it doesn't, then that's also kind of interesting---it means that dumping charisma is an actively good idea in conjunction with RoS.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-05-01, 04:16 PM

FWIW, the official FAQ says otherwise:The FAQ can be... ambitious, let's say. "The rules aren't as clear as they could be" apparently means that "The rules aren't written as I'd like them to be." In any event, there is no ambiguity in turning a medium PC into a large creature of appropriate type and HD, and there are many powerful large forms one can pick.

Troacctid

2019-05-01, 04:51 PM

Understandings clearly differ here. Anytime someone relies on the RC, I think the question comes up: Do you believe Chill Touch suddenly became much better when the RC came out?

The touch is held until you have used up <level> touch attacks. This one seems incorrect since the the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) says: Nevertheless, this seems to be a common interpretation as suggested here (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pps9?Chill-Touch-Clarification).
You can touch up to <level> creatures as part of the casting action. In terms of enumerated abilities, the SRD provides the ability to touch an unwilling subject and the ability to touch multiple willing subjects, but not the ability to touch multiple unwilling subjects. The FAQ (page 16) says you can make multiple simultaneous touches against unwilling subjects as well, consistent with RC page 136.
You can execute <level> touches against a single creature as part of the casting action. I don't see anything explicitly enabling this either in the FAQ or the RC so not allowed? Or implicitly allowed via no explicit restriction on targeting of the touches?

Overall it looks like a strange corner case with varied interpretations in practice. It probably should not be the cornerstone of an argument that warmages are better than sorcerers pretending to be warmages.
I honestly can't see anywhere in the spell where you could be getting that you can't attack the same creature multiple times. The spell clearly says you can make CL attacks against up to CL creatures. What part of "up to" is ambiguous?

Sure, the question is: which one? I don't know a rule saying that you can use less than a full ability, but it's pretty logical so it might exist somewhere. If it doesn't, then that's also kind of interesting---it means that dumping charisma is an actively good idea in conjunction with RoS.
Barring dvati weirdness, you only have one Charisma score, dumping it seems like an actively terrible idea as it would prevent you from casting spells at all.

Anthrowhale

2019-05-01, 05:12 PM

I honestly can't see anywhere in the spell where you could be getting that you can't attack the same creature multiple times. The spell clearly says you can make CL attacks against up to CL creatures. What part of "up to" is ambiguous?

Under interpretation 2 it makes sense as well---if there are less than <level> opponents within reach, you can only affect the number of opponents within reach.

Barring dvati weirdness, you only have one Charisma score, dumping it seems like an actively terrible idea as it would prevent you from casting spells at all.
You may be right---it's hard to be sure that a logically reasonable voluntary lowering of abilities is not allowed given the number of rules, but I haven't found a counterexample yet. The closest example I know is with composite bows.

The odds of not recovering from RoS seem unfortunately high in this case for both the Warmage and the Sorcerer.

Cosi

2019-05-01, 05:42 PM

Troacctid

2019-05-01, 05:53 PM

Under interpretation 2 it makes sense as well---if there are less than <level> opponents within reach, you can only affect the number of opponents within reach.
Yes, and you can make CL attacks against those opponents, just like the spell says. Seriously, it's pretty clear.

You may be right---it's hard to be sure that a logically reasonable voluntary lowering of abilities is not allowed given the number of rules, but I haven't found a counterexample yet. The closest example I know is with composite bows.
On both of these issues your argument is basically "The rules don't specifically go out of their way to refute my completely unsupported claim, therefore it's ambiguous."

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-05-01, 08:17 PM

When it says "fine or larger",I'm blaming the FAQ writer for this, since he indeed wrote "fine or larger" in an apparent attempt to confuse people (a time honored FAQ writing tradition, carried on to all editions including PF). The Polymorph description doesn't say "fine or larger." It just says "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine." Compare with Shapechange, which states "This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size." Any possibility of an implied clause in Polymorph is pretty much wiped out by the line in Shapechange for two reasons. One, when they meant to broaden the size restriction they were explicit; and two, Shapechange says that it's like Polymorph except it broadens size restrictions (among other things).
Hydra is one of the best combat formsDon't get me wrong, the HD-headed Hydra form has an excellent attack routine and decent base stats. But even when the GM allows multiple size increases, I'd prefer the best available troll (Bladerager/Cave/War). They have better base stats, competitive attack routines, and all the benefits of having a humanoid form such as opposable thumbs.

If I were playing a sorcerer and took Polymorph at 8, and the GM said "You're limited by Alter Self size restrictions and con damage hits your base form as well" I'd go "Okay, I agree" and move on. That's not a thorny navigation. And I don't mean to join the broader argument that Polymorph is somehow better than the Beguiler's entire 4th level list. I'm only saying it's relatively straightforward and better than any one spell on the Beguiler's 4th level list. Were I playing a sorcerer, it's something I'd take quickly and rely on quite a bit. Were I playing a Beguiler, it's something I'd spend precious build resources to access.

Cosi

2019-05-01, 08:54 PM

I'm blaming the FAQ writer for this, since he indeed wrote "fine or larger" in an apparent attempt to confuse people (a time honored FAQ writing tradition, carried on to all editions including PF). The Polymorph description doesn't say "fine or larger." It just says "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine."

I wasn't intentionally quoting the FAQ, and I think the point applies to that wording as well. It's defining a new rule for legal sizes -- they cannot be smaller than fine -- which replaces, rather than adding to, the existing rule -- they must be with one category of your own. So you can become Huge, but could not become some hypothetical Fine-, even if you were previously Fine.

One, when they meant to broaden the size restriction they were explicit; and two, Shapechange says that it's like Polymorph except it broadens size restrictions (among other things).

The argument that explicitly noting the restriction implies it is changing has merit, but that's getting close to RAI territory, and if we go there we have the FAQ pointing the other way explicitly. But even if we acknowledge that the restriction is changing, there's no reason it can't be tightening. Perhaps they didn't believe there would be any Colossal+ creatures that were eligible for polymorph, and therefore didn't feel the need to exclude them from its list of legal forms.

Don't get me wrong, the HD-headed Hydra form has an excellent attack routine and decent base stats. But even when the GM allows multiple size increases, I'd prefer the best available troll (Bladerager/Cave/War). They have better base stats, competitive attack routines, and all the benefits of having a humanoid form such as opposable thumbs.

I don't want to get too far into the weeds here, but I disagree. I'm ignoring the Bladerager Troll because I don't want to check more than one book, and assuming you listed them in HD order, there's only one level where it's relevant anyway. Also, I'm leaving in the default Power Attack the Cave Troll uses, again because I'm lazy.

The Cave Troll has a better attack routine on the charge, thanks to it's rakes, but for sustained damage the Hydra is better. Assuming all attacks hit (far from certain, but the Hydra has a better attack bonus in any case), the Cave Troll averages 17 damage per claw, 11 from the bite, and 27 from the Rend for a total of 72 damage. The Hydra averages 10 damage per head, for a total of 90. And the Hydra has better synergy with buffs.

The War Troll's Dazing Blow is good, and it has a better attack than the Hydra, but it's damage output is worse. Assuming all attacks hit and you're using the Greatsword + bite attack routine, you do 80 damage to the Hydra's 180.

Overall, Cave Troll is close, though misses drop your damage by a lot (not getting the Rend drops your damage by more than a third, on top of the actual miss), but the War Troll is substantially less offensively effective than the Hydra unless you value Dazing Blow very highly. And you can choose to become a Pyro or Cryo hydra for even more damage output. I also think keeping your thumbs is not that important here. You're choosing these forms for a fight, and polymorph doesn't last that long (another reason it tends to be overrated), so the number of situations where you desperately need to have thumbs or climb a ladder is going to be fairly small, particularly compared to the number of times you'll wand the extra damage.

Certainly, those are good forms, but you're missing a significant chunk of offensive power by not being able to turn into a Hydra, and the Hydra is less obscure than the various Trolls, meaning they raise the bar for how optimized a Sorcerer needs to be even further.

If I were playing a sorcerer and took Polymorph at 8, and the GM said "You're limited by Alter Self size restrictions and con damage hits your base form as well" I'd go "Okay, I agree" and move on. That's not a thorny navigation.

Sure, but that means getting less power than you otherwise would. And since we're weighting polymorph against the Beguiler's entire spell list, leaving power on the table seems like a quick path to the Sorcerer losing the comparison.

Anthrowhale

2019-05-01, 10:06 PM

Seriously, it's pretty clear.
Not to me, and I suspect not to many people given the reactions of others in this thread.

On both of these issues your argument is basically "The rules don't specifically go out of their way to refute my completely unsupported claim, therefore it's ambiguous."

Oh, that wasn't an argument---more of a musing. You have some good ideas and have pointed out some weaknesses, so here's warmage-by-sorcerer v2.

Silverbrow Human Sorcerer n, Spellshield Alternate Class feature (Familiar -> Immediate action sacrifice spell to avoid spell levelx5 damage)

Str 14/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 8/Wis 12/Cha 16

1. Spellstrike (Modify all damaging spells to add Balance check vs. 10+caster level or knock prone)
Human: Bloodline of Fire (Fire spells caster level+2)
Level 1: 1. Power Word: Pain (Close, mind-affecting, 35 + Knock Prone Balance 11 Neg), 1. Grease (Close, AoE, Knock Pone Refl Neg + No move Balance 10 Neg, SR:No)
3. Versatile Spellcaster (2 spells -> 1 at higher level)
Level 3: 1. Lesser Orb of Fire (Close, Fire, range touch, 13.5 + Knock Prone Balance 15 Neg)
Level 4: 2. Combust (Touch, Fire, 27 + Knock Prone Balance 16 Neg)
Level 5: 2. [Planar Sorcerer], 1. Raging Flame
6. Fiery Spell (Damage +1/die)
Level 6: 3. Fireball (Long, Fire, AoE, 44 Refl/2 + Knock Prone Balance 18 Neg), 1. True Strike (replacing PW:P)
Level 7: 3. Body Blaze (Wall, Fire, 20 + Knock Prone Balance 19 Neg) 2. Glitterdust (Medium, AoE, Blind Will Neg, SR:No) 1. True Casting
Level 8: 4. Celerity
9. Quick Recovery (Move + Will DC 10+spell level+Cha negates Daze or Stun)
Level 9: 4. Wings of Flurry (Party-friendly AoE 31.5 Refl/2 + Daze Refl Neg + Knock Prone balance 19 Neg) 3. Stinking Cloud (Medium, AoE, Nausea Fort neg, SR:No) 2. Alter Self
Level 10: 5. Arcane Fusion

The idea is to start BFC at level 1 using Spellstrike and Grease while using Bloodline of Fire for caster level instead of RoS. At low levels, PW:P + BFC is pretty good in a party context. By level 6, Raging Flame + Fiery Spell + Bloodline of Fire combine to heavily enhance fire spells of which we have multiple.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-05-01, 10:51 PM

Sleven

2019-05-02, 12:39 AM

I think the existence of dragonblood spell-pact is the last nail in the coffin for any possibility the Sorcerer is better, because it makes all the arguments people have made about the fixed-list casters being bad arguments they're good.

dragonblood spell-pact allows two characters to swap spells known. The superiority of the Sorcerer rests on the idea that their spells known are so much better than those the fixed-list casters know that it's not a problem that the fixed list casters know something between "twice as many spells" and "an order of magnitude more spells". If that's true, trading those spells away most be commensurately more expensive. If polymorph is the best 4th level spell in the game, surely the Warmage's ability to trade orb of acid for polymorph is better than the Sorcerer's ability to trade polymorph for some situationally-appropriate spell, which he will presumably trade back. And that trading back reveals another disadvantage Sorcerers have in this context. A Beguiler has enough 4th level spells that if she happens to need orb of fire for one encounter at 8th level, she can just make the swap, then go back to casting one of her other ten spells known, saving the cost of swapping back. A Sorcerer can't.

And this handily avoids the rules issues the Sorcerer side raises around other list-expansion techniques, because they're the ones who brought it up. To suggest that it doesn't work when it's discovered to be better for the fixed-list casters would be practically the definition of bad faith.

So I think we can now safely say the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are better at every point in the game at every level of optimization. At low or mid optimization, they always were. At mid levels and high optimization, they have access to the same spells as the Sorcerer, they simply know massively more. Even the Warmage beats the Sorcerer at high-op now.

Oh the irony and hypocrisy.

We're here comparing 2 classes: the sorcerer and the beguiler. The sorcerer's power is entirely self contained. The beguiler has to hope a number of stars align if he ever wants to see Dragonblood Spell-pact. The sorcerer either gets it explicitly and can use it without any external resources (as has already been demonstrated), or is fine without it. The beguiler has neither of those things. And running away from this point (as you have been all thread) is the ultimate bad faith argument.

You're also ignoring the list expansion and retraining options available to a sorcerer that allow them to do this indefinitely. So if we're going "high-op" enough, a sorcerer knows all spells. Period. What is the differentiating factor in this scenario and that of a beguiler doing it? Once again: the sorcerer is self-contained. It gets to do all of these tricks by playing with itself. Something the beguiler can't claim.

The Beguiler would love to face an army of mindless enemies. He can beat all of them with 1st level spells while the Sorcerer wastes his time shrinking objects and trying to punch out an entire army of golems. The Beguiler's only glaring weaknesses are creatures that are immune to mind-affecting and either not mindless or possessed of some kind of senses that beat illusions. And even then it gets some things that are relevant.

Except you're ignoring the fact that none of them are damage. A beguiler on their own cannot finish the job in a significant number of scenarios. A sorcerer doesn't have this issue. But you and the other pro-beguiler poster will just keep trying to ignore this point over-and-over-and-over again.

Okay, sure, let's do that. At each level, the Sorcerer and the Beguiler swap whatever spell they like least for any spell in the game. They reach 8th level, and the Sorcerer wants polymorph (as, I have been told any non "moroncerer" would). He takes it as his one 4th level spell, and I guess swaps shrink item for explosive runes or something. The Beguiler gets 11 4th level spells, swaps mass whelm for polymorph and can now use the Sorcerer's best trick, and also charm monster, solid fog, greater mirror image, and freedom of movement. There's absolutely nothing stopping the Sorcerer from using Apprentice in the exact same way as the Beguiler. It just doesn't solve their problems (lack of spells known) but does solve the Beguiler's (stuck with some weak spells on their list).

[...]

Bloodline Feats and Mother Cyst add to your spells known and work for the Beguiler as well. Once again, you're not getting ahead by adding the same things to both lists. The Sorcerer wins by convincing people that the best spell is better than eight decent spells. If both characters decide to prioritize knowing lots of spells, that plays to the Beguiler's strengths.

I like how you tried to make these into separate points. They're not. A sorcerer doing this is getting to choose at least one other spell at this level he's traded for with Apprentice in addition to any other sorcerer spells he would get to choose and any other sorcerer spell of at least one level lower on even numbered levels (remember that sorcerers can replace lower level spells, and there's nothing stopping this from being one of the "additional" spells from a feat).

Of course, your entire case rests on the questionable reading of Apprentice in order for this list expansion trick to work for the beguiler. Meanwhile, this trick works for sorcerers with or without the questionable ruling and with or without outside help.

The fact that a monster race uses your class for its innate casting is an advantage for the monster, not the class. [...] But "dragons have Sorcerer casting, therefore Sorcerer is good" is about as compelling as "dragons take Fighter Bonus Feats, therefore Fighter is good".

Hold up a minute. The monster are casting as that class (sorcerer), its not the class casting as a monster. The class is providing the power, the monster just has class specific benefits for playing as one. Not unlike choosing a race with +Cha for your sorcerer, or +Int for a beguiler. I like how you think it's okay to say the beguiler has more spell options, yet are trying to dismiss the sorcerer's racial options. Hypocrisy at its finest.

If you can convince me that any of those races want to take any Sorcerer levels (rather than PrC levels, or just advancing by HD), maybe you have a point.

They do if they want to advance their innate spellcasting class with a PrC in the first place, or if the Phaerimm sorcerer wants to outpace everyone's spellcasting progression. I guess it turns out I had a pretty big point after all, huh?

Of course that's the only question. Just about everyone agrees that it happens at some point. Mato, your apparent agreement buddy, seemed to be claiming that it happens way before 4th level spells, maybe as early as first level.

Cosi seems to be the only one in disagreement.

Also, if that's the case then I disagree. And no, I'm not his buddy, so no fanfic, please.

That said, yeah, polymorph is good, but those eleven spells good?

Again, it's not 11 spells because the beguiler has serious spell-role overlap. And lets not forget that the sorcerer also has spells other than Polymorph. If that weren't the case, I would be inclined to agree with you.

Finally, Cosi already said it but it's worth repeating. Are you kidding me? There's been post after post after post after post debunking this nonsense, because the beguiler has spell after spell after spell after spell to deal with creatures that are immune to mind-affecting. I'm not sure how seriously you expect me to take your arguments about beguilers when you say this kind of thing. Just look at, say, 2nd level spells. Daze monster, detect thoughts, hypnotic pattern, stay the hand, touch of idiocy, vertigo, and whelming blast are mind-affecting. That leaves 12 separate spells that these monster types are not immune to at all. And those seven spells are kinda mediocre too, so what you're left with is the good stuff. This claim doesn't make any sense at all.

I'll repeat myself: it has to do with damage. Being able to finish the job. How am I supposed to take you seriously if you keep ignoring this point? Particularly as it relates to a swath of monster types.

Sorcerers get one third level spell at sixth level. I said that dispel magic would be a solid option for that. Slevin said, nope, one of my two main choices for that single slot is explosive runes. The sorcerer in this scenario does not have dispel magic. They only have explosive runes. You don't just get to have a ton of different spells.

You're right, I didn't. Except by this level I do get to have "a ton of different spells" and Summon Monster I, Summon Marked Homunculus, etc. is one of them. Conveniently creatures summoned by such first level spells can activate Explosive Runes. How about that?

Since this is apparently my sorcerer now, it also has divine ranks. Cool.

It might take some prep work, but hunting down minion-able things to bring into your fight against the undead is not particularly hard.

Unless you're making an argument that only a mailman sorcerer or warmage can stand up to the undead horde, the beguiler can pull out enough minionmancy and battlefield control that he's not useless.

So you're going on vacation to find monsters instead of tackling the problem at hand? Sorcerer doesn't have to do that. Sounds like an advantage to me.

(Also, I roll my eyes every time the mailman is brought up. It's terribly inefficient from an optimization perspective. Let's forget about it, Wings of Flurry, and a ton of other forum group-think misconceptions.)

You're going to need to defend that assertion - that sorcerers have a better list than the dread necro even while spending limited spells known on downtime-only spells - because that's what most of your opponents are claiming is false. Me, I don't really care, and roughly agree with you, but the expenditure of spell slots on downtime spells is still a HEAVY cost for sorcerers, and a strength for the fixed-list casters due to it not really costing them anything.

I already did with the four spells mentioned, and technically not all of them are required at every level. Once you get Planar Binding you can drop the undead spells. Once you get Limited Wish you're at Dread Warrior tier undead + everything else the spell does for the sorcerer class.

SLOTHRPG95

2019-05-02, 01:07 AM

Certainly, those are good forms, but you're missing a significant chunk of offensive power by not being able to turn into a Hydra, and the Hydra is less obscure than the various Trolls, meaning they raise the bar for how optimized a Sorcerer needs to be even further.

Sure, but that means getting less power than you otherwise would. And since we're weighting polymorph against the Beguiler's entire spell list, leaving power on the table seems like a quick path to the Sorcerer losing the comparison.

I'm in favor of an argument for/against the strength of Polymorph that stays away from splatbook-diving. Now, I personally think that even if you can't turn into a hydra, it's still a great spell. When you first get it, a bog-standard troll is a pretty decent option, and at the higher end, hill giant, frost giant, and fire giant can still provide a nice Strength (and NA, and size and hence reach) boost. Plus there's already plenty of kosher Large-sized non-bipedal forms with flight or loads of natural attacks or whatever in core. With that said, even if you can access more juicy forms, it's not better than everything the Beguiler gets at the same level.

eggynack

2019-05-02, 01:57 AM

Cosi seems to be the only one in disagreement.
Do you really think that everyone here ranks 8th level beguilers below 8th level sorcerers?

Also, if that's the case then I disagree.
Have you read through Mato's first post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23874139&postcount=103) in this thread? They're almost absurdly sorcerer favored. He opened with an outright insult directed at people who thought the fixed list casters have a chance. I'm not sure if he explicitly made this claim, but it seems really really strongly implied.

Again, it's not 11 spells because the beguiler has serious spell-role overlap. And lets not forget that the sorcerer also has spells other than Polymorph. If that weren't the case, I would be inclined to agree with you.
There's some overlap, but overlap has utility too. Yes, the sorcerer has spells besides polymorph, but they're all of lower level, and those lower levels still feature meaningful beguiler advantages at 8th. Third level spells have the sorcerer combating 20 spells, a number of them excellent, with only two. I'm skeptical that two sorcerer picks would exceed the beguiler list. Seconds come a bit closer, because the sorcerer is running three spells there, but it's still a lot of spells to contend with, many still providing a range of additional utility. Alter self is good though. Finally, sorcerers are maybe favored with first level spells, but these are the lowest utility things, and the sorcerer's not even doing that great here.

Yeah, there's overlap, but the beguiler is advantaged where it matters and not disadvantaged significantly where it doesn't matter.

I'll repeat myself: it has to do with damage. Being able to finish the job. How am I supposed to take you seriously if you keep ignoring this point? Particularly as it relates to a swath of monster types.
The beguiler just generally tends to not do direct damage (except via charmed and/or dominated minions). Which is fine. Damaging spells are usually pretty lame. The beguiler shuts down enemies and battlefields and then any arbitrary damage source does the damage. The god wizard is a whole archetype, y'know?

You're right, I didn't. Except by this level I do get to have "a ton of different spells" and Summon Monster I, Summon Marked Homunculus, etc. is one of them. Conveniently creatures summoned by such first level spells can activate Explosive Runes. How about that?
Reasonable strategy, though I'll note that the issue here was that Mato specifically thought this sorcerer had dispel magic, and was criticizing me along those lines. I'ma quote him:

And since the combo requires dispel magic and Sleven mentioned his sorcerer example having it, why are you trying to say it dispel magic is better than dispel magic?
You should be arguing with him, not me. Least on this point.

Edit: Wait a sec. The whole point of the dispel magic is that you trigger multiple runes simultaneously. Wouldn't a summoned monster reading the first rune immediately trigger it, thus destroying any remaining runes and the summoned monster? This seems a lot less efficient as a strategy without the dispel magic combo.

Lans

2019-05-02, 03:32 AM

Edit: Wait a sec. The whole point of the dispel magic is that you trigger multiple runes simultaneously. Wouldn't a summoned monster reading the first rune immediately trigger it, thus destroying any remaining runes and the summoned monster? This seems a lot less efficient as a strategy without the dispel magic combo.

You cold maybe use a monter that was immune to fire.

eggynack

2019-05-02, 03:40 AM

You cold maybe use a monter that was immune to fire.
Explosive runes deals force damage, and damage to the paper or whatever that the rune is on is a serious concern regardless.

Cosi

2019-05-02, 07:07 AM

The sorcerer's power is entirely self contained.

dragonblood spell-pact allows you to swap spells with other people. There is no possible definition of "self contained" in which trading spells with other people is "entirely self contained". The simulacrum trick is self-contained, but it allows you to swap 3rd level spells at 14th level, and no one cares. Also, under a strict reading of simulacrum it doesn't work. I personally think it does, but I mention this because people insist on unfavorable readings of every Beguiler trick.

You're also ignoring the list expansion and retraining options available to a sorcerer that allow them to do this indefinitely.

You have yet to present a list-expansion option that applies to the Sorcerer but not the Beguiler. As noted, if we operate in a paradigm where people expand their lists and then launder those spells into new ones, the Beguiler is just like the Sorcerer, except it has more baseline spells by a factor of between two and ten. And you're ignoring the list-expansion options available to the Beguiler, like Prestige Domains.

Except you're ignoring the fact that none of them are damage.

Who cares? It's a no-save lockdown that lasts as long as you want it to. You can entire bypass the encounter entirely, or you win if there is anyone on your side who can deal any damage. And it takes a single 1st level spell slot. If the Sorcerer would like to claim that spending a 4th level slot to beat an encounter with a higher level of risk is an improvement, he is free to do so.

A sorcerer doing this is getting to choose at least one other spell at this level he's traded for with Apprentice in addition to any other sorcerer spells he would get

Sure. But that doesn't help your case. Now you're comparing the second-best Sorcerer spell to every Beguiler spell plus the Bloodline spell. You were already loosing when it was explosive runes versus the entire Beguiler spell list, if you want to (as Mato suggests) get explosive runes and dispel magic, your 3rd level spell selection is strictly worse than the Beguilers, because she gets those and 19 other spells.

Of course, your entire case rests on the questionable reading of Apprentice in order for this list expansion trick to work for the beguiler.

People have called the reading questionable, but no one has presented an argument for why it is questionable. The last thread someone did that in, that interpretation of the rules made Advanced Learning dysfunctional, and was inconsistent with the treatment of Extra Spell. I'm not inclined to give a lot of credibly to readings that break the rules in an effort to prove that someone's favorite class shouldn't face competition. In any case, I'm perfectly happy to accept that an argument about Apprentice depends on the text of Apprentice. In fact, I would rather hope it does. But I've made other arguments -- like the ones about Prestige Domains -- which have nothing to do with Apprentice. If your big gotcha is "your claims about a feat depend on that feat", you can color me unimpressed.

They do if they want to advance their innate spellcasting class with a PrC in the first place, or if the Phaerimm sorcerer wants to outpace everyone's spellcasting progression.

You can progress your innate spellcasting without taking a Sorcerer level. And the Phaerimm trick either doesn't work or works for PrCs as well. Thus far you have presented zero reasons for any of these creatures to take a single Sorcerer level, and thus zero reason that their admittedly substantial power should be in any way attributed to the Sorcerer class.

So you're going on vacation to find monsters instead of tackling the problem at hand? Sorcerer doesn't have to do that. Sounds like an advantage to me.

You've just described "takes advantage of downtime to increase their power" as a downside. In any case, to use dragonbood spell-pact at 10th -- as you initially were claiming they could -- Sorcerers have to find not just "any monster with a low will save that isn't immune to charm monster" but "specifically a dragonblood spellcaster with whatever spell I want to learn who wants one of my spells and is willing to spend several hundred XP". Plus, after doing all that, they're stuck with a 5th level spell that doesn't do anything, unless you want to admit that their use of the spell is exactly identical to the Beguiler's use of it.

everything else the spell does for the sorcerer class.

Burn a bunch of XP for spell access marginally better than a Beguiler with substitute domain until you run out of 7th level spell slots? Of course, the Beguiler can get limited wish as well, so it seems like in this case what limited wish does for the Sorcerer is cost them eight spells known. Oh, and it pushes the already dubiously useful dragonblood spell-pact + simulacrum trick back even further.

Lans

2019-05-02, 09:18 AM

Explosive runes deals force damage, and damage to the paper or whatever that's the rune is on is a serious concern regardless.

Somehow I never realized that

Segev

2019-05-02, 09:53 AM

Regarding Polymorph's size restriction: There is no actual rules text that states Polymorph's size clause replaces Alter Self's size clause. It is, literally read, a new restriction. That is the most straightforward and consistent reading of the rules.I agree; it is a perfectly logical reading. I could construct an argument based on similar but differently-focused logic to make it work differently, but that wouldn't change that this is a perfectly logical reading. It is exactly how a computer would interpret code derived from the RAW-as-pseudocode.

It would also be considered a bug by the guy who wrote the directions (i.e. the rules) for the coder to code up, and the coder himself if he worked from his pseudocode blindly. Trust me; I've coded enough things with exactly this logic error, expecting it to behave the way common readings of the two spells interpret it, only to be wondering why I a) can't get down to Fine size with my polymorph spell, and b) why I can't polymorph a Diminuitive creature into another Diminuitive creature, despite a Diminuitive-- Wait, there is no size category smaller than Fine, so the "extra restriction" does literally nothing. Alter self couldn't get down below Fine, either.

Anyway, it's a clear bug, because you wouldn't call out the limit on polymorph if it were already present in alter self by way of a stronger limit. It's obviously intended to free up the sizes available. Not further restrict them. I acknowledge any effort to argue the RAW logically to mean that would be tortured, which is why I'm not bothering. So if you want to die by the RAW, go ahead and assume polymorph can't turn a human into a cat.

Except you're ignoring the fact that none of them are damage. A beguiler on their own cannot finish the job in a significant number of scenarios. A sorcerer doesn't have this issue. But you and the other pro-beguiler poster will just keep trying to ignore this point over-and-over-and-over again.And you keep pretending that having minions isn't a feasible option. Minions do damage. I'm pretty sure your charmed and hasted raging orc barbarians are doing a fair bit of damage. Even if you only have, say, 2. And you can't convince me it's hard to get a couple orc barbarians to fail a will save, nor that they'd be arguing too much with you telling them to "smash that guy."

So you're going on vacation to find monsters instead of tackling the problem at hand? Sorcerer doesn't have to do that. Sounds like an advantage to me.I'm assuming I have at least as much downtime as your dragonpact sorcerer does to go out and make his clone, retrain it, and swap things back and forth. If you're setting up a campaign where it literally will not work to find some thugs to mind-whammy into being effective minions, sure, the Beguiler is useless. But that's a very specific campaign. It's extremely rare for the ONLY thing around to be undead and constructs and there to be NO time nor freedom to deliberately hunt down cannon fodder to mind-control. It takes no more than a day. If you're evil enough, it just takes "persuading" the toughs in the starting town to be your muscle.

(Also, I roll my eyes every time the mailman is brought up. It's terribly inefficient from an optimization perspective. Let's forget about it, Wings of Flurry, and a ton of other forum group-think misconceptions.)You're the one who keeps saying that the inability to do damage means the Beguiler can't "finish the job." Roll your eyes all you want, but recognize that you're creating hypocritical switching goal posts as you do so.

I already did with the four spells mentioned, and technically not all of them are required at every level. Once you get Planar Binding you can drop the undead spells. Once you get Limited Wish you're at Dread Warrior tier undead + everything else the spell does for the sorcerer class.
If you want to play a necromancer minionmancer, you're not dropping the undead spells. Which is why I say, for that purpose, Dread Necromancer is the better class. Also, as big a fan as I am of putting limited wish on any Sorcerer build, pretending it's an actual equivalent substitute for any number of downtime spells is disingenuous: XP may be a river, but it's not limitless.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2019-05-02, 11:56 AM

I agree; it is a perfectly logical reading. I could construct an argument based on similar but differently-focused logic to make it work differently, but that wouldn't change that this is a perfectly logical reading. It is exactly how a computer would interpret code derived from the RAW-as-pseudocode. *snip*It's rare that you see a RAI-over-RAW argument to make a ridiculous spell more powerful. Designers are strange, confused folk who could have a number of reasons for writing what they wrote. It's not exactly the first time a game designer has thrown in some meaningless/redundant rules text. In terms of actual evidence for intent, see my Shapechange argument above. They had the right "code" already written, and in fact within Shapechange they imply that allowing Fine-to-Colossal size categories is a change from Polymorph. Maybe they meant to allow Fine-to-[size+1]. That would fix your cat issue, though it would make the spell needlessly more powerful with utility forms like Hairy Spider.

More minor points: Not allowing Polymorph to turn a medium-sized creature into a cat is bad game design, just like allowing Polymorph to turn planetouched into outsiders is bad game design. It's not a well-designed spell, even when the RAW is clear. Regarding tortured readings, I would say that all else equal RAW supports the less tortured reading when it's identifiable.

Again, Polymorph is a very useful, powerful spell. Players should thank their lucky stars they get to use it as written; no rules argument is required at a table. On the internet, arguments are always required for everything.

Eldariel

2019-05-02, 12:12 PM

It's rare that you see a RAI-over-RAW argument to make a ridiculous spell more powerful. Designers are strange, confused folk who could have a number of reasons for writing what they wrote. It's not exactly the first time a game designer has thrown in some meaningless/redundant rules text. In terms of actual evidence for intent, see my Shapechange argument above. They had the right "code" already written, and in fact within Shapechange they imply that allowing Fine-to-Colossal size categories is a change from Polymorph. Maybe they meant to allow Fine-to-[size+1]. That would fix your cat issue, though it would make the spell needlessly more powerful with utility forms like Hairy Spider.

More minor points: Not allowing Polymorph to turn a medium-sized creature into a cat is bad game design, just like allowing Polymorph to turn planetouched into outsiders is bad game design. It's not a well-designed spell, even when the RAW is clear. Regarding tortured readings, I would say that all else equal RAW supports the less tortured reading when it's identifiable.

Again, Polymorph is a very useful, powerful spell. Players should thank their lucky stars they get to use it as written; no rules argument is required at a table. On the internet, arguments are always required for everything.

His reading is just as RAW as yours. There's no clear RAW on the spell, because there's no clear rule for how to deal with the "supercede"-clause; whether it's enough for it to deal with size or whether it should deal with the specific type of size described in the earlier spell. Thus, he's correct that arguments on the point would achieve nothing, but one has to accept both readings as RAW.

Troacctid

2019-05-02, 04:26 PM

Segev

2019-05-02, 04:35 PM

Incidentally, the polymorph size question and the beguiler Apprentice question are related. Apprentice (Spellcaster) doesn't work for beguilers because when you learn new spells, they're chosen from your spell list unless otherwise specified, and Apprentice doesn't specify otherwise. This doesn't make advanced learning dysfunction because it does specify a new restriction. And just like with polymorph, the new restriction supersedes the old one rather than overlapping with it.

That is an interesting argument. The proof-by-contradiction (or at least by reduction to absurdity) would be that, if we assumed the alternative interpretation - that new restrictions just stack on old ones unless old ones are explicitly and specifically removed - that Advanced Learning has the additional restriction of "arcane spells off the wizard list of these schools," but doesn't lose the "must be part of the Beguiler list of spells" limit. So only spells that meet both restrictions can be chosen, and this is useless, because Beguilers already know all spells that fit that bill (because they know all Beguiler spells).

Cosi

2019-05-02, 05:28 PM

XP may be a river, but it's not limitless.

Yes. It may be true that in the long run, there's no cost to spending XP. But for XP Is A River to even kick in, you have to be down a level at some point. Which means there's a point in the game where the Sorcerer has limited wish and simulacrum and the Beguiler has simulacrum and 8th level spells. Or that the Beguiler is using her XP-river for something else -- dragonblood spell-pact seems like a strong choice, as it's better than limited wish for anything you use frequently. Also, playing down a level is actually another strength of the fixed-list casters, at least in some cases. Because they get all their spells known immediately, they pay a much smaller cost than the Sorcerer for missing odd levels. They pay a larger one for missing even levels, but the cost of missing a new level of spells dominates there.

Shapechange they imply that allowing Fine-to-Colossal size categories is a change from Polymorph.

Yes, it's a restriction. Colossal+ is a real size category, and (provided you can find an otherwise-legal creature, which is admittedly challenging), polymorph and alter self can turn you into a creature of that size, while shapechange cannot. There's actually a similar issue with alter self. Since it's own-type allowance is for "your" type, while polymorph's is for "the subject's", a Warforged Spellguard of Silverymoon can use alter self to transform his Human friend into a large animated object, but cannot use polymorph to do the same.

I'm not actually sure if you're still arguing with me, I just think this is a particularly bizarre piece of D&D obscurantism.

Incidentally, the polymorph size question and the beguiler Apprentice question are related. Apprentice (Spellcaster) doesn't work for beguilers because when you learn new spells, they're chosen from your spell list unless otherwise specified, and Apprentice doesn't specify otherwise.

A reasonable enough line of logic, though you've presented no rule that actually makes that claim (that "a spell" means "from your list" by default). I suspect if you did, it would have a very large hole to the effect of "generally" right where you wanted the ironclad restriction.

This doesn't make advanced learning dysfunction because it does specify a new restriction. And just like with polymorph, the new restriction supersedes the old one rather than overlapping with it.

And this is nonsense. If you are adding a restriction -- rather than replacing the list of restrictions, as polymorph does -- that does not remove existing restrictions. Restrictions do allow you to ignore other restrictions, just as allowances do not revoke other allowances. Advanced Learning is governed by three restrictions. First, the spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell. Second, it must be of the enchantment or illusion schools. Third, it must be no higher than the highest level spell you can cast. Those are all restrictions. If "a spell" carries with it the restriction "from your class list", that applies here as well, meaning the only spells that can be learned with Advanced Learning are already on the Beguiler's list.

Neither ability makes any reference to a "from your list" restriction. Therefore, the restriction is present in either both cases, or neither. For Advanced Learning to work in this model, it would have to say "this ability may be used to select spells from the sorcerer/wizard list",

That is an interesting argument. The proof-by-contradiction (or at least by reduction to absurdity) would be that, if we assumed the alternative interpretation - that new restrictions just stack on old ones unless old ones are explicitly and specifically removed

I suppose you could choose this as the part of the chain of logic to give up on, but that seems like it causes more problems. For example, I'm fairly sure it allows templated forms from polymorph, just for starters. The most reasonable reading is clearly one where "a spell" allows you to select any member of the set of spells. Though honestly, this argument isn't really particularly important, because dragonblood spell-pact is just better, as it allows you to swap as many spells as you want.

Troacctid

2019-05-02, 05:36 PM

reasonable enough line of logic, though you've presented no rule that actually makes that claim (that "a spell" means "from your list" by default). I suspect if you did, it would have a very large hole to the effect of "generally" right where you wanted the ironclad restriction.
To be precise, the general rule is that spells are selected "according to the restrictions of your class" (RC 139) which in the case of the beguiler is "drawn from the beguiler spell list" (PH2 6). Specific abilities can override the general rule, but they have to say they override the general rule.

Cosi

2019-05-02, 05:51 PM

To be precise, the general rule is that spells are selected "according to the restrictions of your class" (RC 139) which in the case of the beguiler is "drawn from the beguiler spell list" (PH2 6). Specific abilities can override the general rule, but they have to say they override the general rule.

You're quoting selectively. The full text is:

Spontaneous casters gain spells by attaining levels in their class. They never gain spells any other way. When your spontaneous spellcaster gains a new level, consult the table that details the number of spells the character knows. Select new spells known to fill your repertoire according to the restrictions of your class. Some spontaneous spellcasters know only a specific list of spells, and know all those spells, while others can choose with more flexibility.
Emphasis mine.

If that rule applies to Apprentice, it simply does not work. For any one. Ever. As do Knowstones, Runestaves, almost any feat that grants spells known, dragonblood spell-pact, or anything that grants you new spells by any mechanism other than adding them to your list. The more reasonable interpretation is that it is the rule for learning spells at level-up, in which case it does not apply in this case.

Troacctid

2019-05-02, 06:11 PM

Technically, Apprentice isn't even an exception to that rule. You still have to level up in your class to use it, and it only lets you swap spells known, not add more.

Cosi

2019-05-02, 06:14 PM

Technically, Apprentice isn't even an exception to that rule. You still have to level up in your class to use it, and it only lets you swap spells known, not add more.

If swapping spells is distinct from adding them, why do restrictions on the spells you can add apply to spell swaps?

Segev

2019-05-02, 06:31 PM

To be fair, the feats that allow you to pick up powers and spells off-list tend to spell that out explicitly.

Mato

2019-05-03, 02:08 PM

RC 136 makes it abundantly clear that you make all the attacks as one standard action. The spell does not require them to all be against different creatures.What a nice 180 degree spin on cherry picking. Maybe one of these days, with enough partial sentences, we'll cover all of the entries.

I didn't mean what I typed and you proved wrong, I meant this instead.Yes I know only like 45% of the 2nd spells a beguiler has that are aimed at other creatures are mind-affecting. But I also mentioned SR as part of the same description I used several times in this thread.

I do admit I should have mentioned changing classes around is a sign of moving the goal posts so we could have kept our theme going. All well.

I think the existence of dragonblood spell-pact is the last nail in the coffin for any possibility the Sorcerer is betterYes, this spell that can only be initially learned by sorcerers is a huge nail in the coffin for how integral lesser spontaneous spellcasters depend on a sorcerer.

But remember it does have the unfortunate flaw that psychic reformation does not allow you to repick traded spells if you wish to refreash your spells known almost as fast as a wizard to replace any observed deficiencies. That's another reason clones of your self capable of casting those spells is handy.

There's some overlap, but overlap has utility too.
I feel like that is the slogan of most fighter vs wizard threads.
Sure a greataxe has overlap with a greatsword, but overlap has utility too.

This is the kind of thing you say when you can't validate any reason to say a greataxe is better or more useful than a given spell. Instead you substitute the argument with a red harring and try to make people argue whether or not overlap has utility to disguise that you are talking about the usefulness of a greataxe & greatsword instead of discussing greataxe vs casting a planar bubble or something.

You were already loosing when it was explosive runes versus the entire Beguiler spell list, if you want to (as Mato suggests) get explosive runes and dispel magic, your 3rd level spell selection is strictly worse than the Beguilers, because she gets those and 19 other spells.
I never said explosive runes + dispel magic are my suggested 3rd level spells.

The closet I came to 3rd level spell suggestions was I would have used substitute on Troacctid's earlier warmage-like counter example due to the number touch spells it had as part of my point that his example seems so gimped because it's a terrible sorcerer. The explosive runes as a go to spell for damage comes from Sleven (fyi mine was wings of flurry and I believe I sarcastically mentioned a fell animate locate city bomb as well) who was in the process of dealing with a completely different class. And he also suggested shrink item as a 3rd level spell worth learning. But your personal shout out of a debate, as we all can see with a couple of clicks, has been cherry picked and reformatted that into something you and eggy feel like you have a chance to argue about instead of actually discussing what's been said.

This is what happens when the only agenda you have is "to win" but you choose something that loses. Like how neither one of you can truly deal with polymorph so you're moved to attacking which forms can be choosen and these made up points. And Eggy has desperately turned to trying to claim what I've said so terrible that just by the association of me and Sleven both liking polymorph Sleven's points must be completely wrong. At least you've been better than him through. :smallsigh:

But I take it to mean this thread is at a closing point.

You're quoting selectively. The full text is:

The D&D game assumes a specific order of rules application: General to specific to exception. A general rule is a basic guideline, but a more specific rule takes precedence when applied to the same activity. For instance, a monster description is more specific than any general rule about monsters, so the description takes precedence. An exception is a particular kind of specific rule that contradicts or breaks another rule (general or specific). The Improved Disarm feat, for instance, provides an exception to the rule that an attacker provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender he’s trying to disarm (see Disarm, page 45).
:smallsmile:

eggynack

2019-05-03, 03:06 PM

Yes I know only like 45% of the 2nd spells a beguiler has that are aimed at other creatures are mind-affecting. But I also mentioned SR as part of the same description I used several times in this thread.
Your argument was based in part on these spells having all those restrictions, and not just one of them. After all, your claim was that beguilers have serious type limits, saying, and I actually quote, "highly limiting his ability to fight several hundreds of printed monsters." Having SR was probably the least pertinent restriction on your list, and that one is bypassed by glitterdust, one of the best beguiler spells of that level. Also, I did mean what I typed. I was mistaken about color spray, but the beguiler still has a wealth of options at that level that aren't restricted as you claim. It's also not like color spray is magically removed from the list by this. Silent image and obscuring mist are available for more direct usage when the target is immune to mind-affecting, and enemies that aren't immune face three of the most powerful first level spells, color spray, sleep, and charm person. Seriously, how is a sorcerer outdoing this? Their edge is basically just that they can pick up grease.

I do admit I should have mentioned changing classes around is a sign of moving the goal posts so we could have kept our theme going. All well.

It would be nice if you would actually quote me so I would have any idea what you're talking about. Seriously, you're making reference to incredibly specific things I supposedly said, and didn't even quote my words.

I feel like that is the slogan of most fighter vs wizard threads.
Sure a greataxe has overlap with a greatsword, but overlap has utility too.

This is the kind of thing you say when you can't validate any reason to say a greataxe is better or more useful than a given spell. Instead you substitute the argument with a red harring and try to make people argue whether or not overlap has utility instead of the usefulness of a greataxe & greatsword instead of a greataxe vs casting a planar bubble or something.
The additional utility of the overlap is trivial to recognize. Higher level versions generally have more power but higher cost, lower level versions can be cast more often in spite of the lower power. Sometimes you need a major image, because that additional utility is necessary, and sometimes a silent image suffices. A comparison between, say, invisibility and greater invisibility reveals even more obvious non-overlap. The former's longer duration makes it good for scouty utility stuff, while the latter not being broken by attacks makes it good for combat oriented usage.

Also, it's really bizarre that you're going on the attack for my saying that overlap has utility, as if I was ignoring the actual utility the spells have in and of themselves. The argument was put to me that these spells overlap, limiting their utility, and I was responding to that claim. If the spells did not overlap at all, then the beguiler/sorcerer comparison would more clearly favor the beguiler.

I never said explosive runes + dispel magic are my suggested 3rd level spells.
Not precisely, but you were defending explosive runes as a pick, and doing so by making a weird claim about dispel magic.

The closet I came to 3rd level spell suggestions...
How about you come a bit closer then? Make a third level spell suggestion, and then a second one for when you go up a level.

But your personal shout out of a debate, as we all can see with a couple of clicks, has been cherry picked and reformatted that into something you and eggy feel like you have a chance to argue about instead of actually discussing what's been said.

This is what happens when the only agenda you have is "to win" but you choose something that loses.
The irony here, naturally, is that you spent basically this entire post picking on the arguments of others, often for silly reasons like that I just talked about the positive utility of overlapping spells in any context, and didn't make any sort of argument in favor of the sorcerer. You spent two paragraphs complaining about the structure of an argument about third level spell selection and you never even listed your third level spell selection. Contrast with my post here, where I noted and elaborated on several ways that the beguiler functions and succeeds.

Like how neither one of you can truly deal with polymorph so you're moved to attacking which forms can be choose
Polymorph is "dealt with" by the fact that the beguiler has a ton of powerful spells at that level. Solid fog and charm monster for offense, greater mirror image, freedom of movement, and greater invisibility for defense, locate creature and charm monster again for utility, and then a pile of more marginal spells for when they are situationally useful. Polymorph is great, but it has a lot of difficulty standing up to that expansive list single handed. Noting rules limits on its capabilities means that it has even less capacity to stand up to that list. It turns out that when a class is fundamentally reliant on the operation of a single spell that is super weird and ambiguous in its operation, the arguments related to that class are going to center somewhat on clearing up those ambiguities.

and Eggy has turned to trying to claim what I've said so so terrible that just by association of me and Sleven both liking polymorph Sleven's points must be completely wrong. :smallsigh:
Not remotely. Slevin has been agreeing with you, and I've been saying that the arguments you've been making, the ones they've been agreeing with, are thoroughly disagreeable. They also took an argument I was making about something you said somewhat out of context. Said argument's relation to you is a pretty important thing.

Edit: Also, just checked the rules and it doesn't look like modifying quotes is against the rules. The rule is, "Editing a quote of another user's post to insult the poster or to make the other user's words appear misleading, inflammatory, or insulting is considered trolling." Given what you did there though, just not modifying quotes may be the safer option.

Cosi

2019-05-03, 06:26 PM

To be fair, the feats that allow you to pick up powers and spells off-list tend to spell that out explicitly.

I don't think this is actually true. Effects that allow you to select new spells tend to specify the set of spells they can select from. They don't explicitly specify that you can go off-list. If the rule applies as it is being suggested it does, then they would need to explicitly say "these spells, even if not on your list". Instead, they mostly just say "these spells". It seems clear to me that there is no default restriction, and the passage quoted is describing the process of gaining new spells at level up.

Yes I know only like 45% of the 2nd spells a beguiler has that are aimed at other creatures are mind-affecting. But I also mentioned SR as part of the same description I used several times in this thread.

Once again, you're missing the point. You're approaching this from the perspective of someone whose accustomed to playing a Sorcerer. It's not about the overlap, it's about the parts that don't overlap. Yes, charm person and silent image both target Will. But one is dead against undead, and the other is an instant win against many of them.

Yes, this spell that can only be initially learned by sorcerers is a huge nail in the coffin for how integral lesser spontaneous spellcasters depend on a sorcerer.

It's a spell that lets you freely swap spells. Its function is to make the question of "who can learn what" irrelevant. In a world with dragonblood spell-pact the only question of consequence is how many spells you know, and the Beguiler knows more. Yes, it's initially a Sorcerer spell. But there are plenty of high-power classes that plunder from other lists. Artificers, Archivists, Erudites -- all get their power from borrowing other people's. The Beguiler is behind the couple thousand gold it costs her to buy a runestave. The Sorcerer is behind by four or more spells known. That doesn't seem like a win for him.

But remember it does have the unfortunate flaw that psychic reformation

Am I misunderstanding something, or did you just go straight from "that doesn't count, it's a spell from another class" to "so here's how that impacts the Sorcerer's use of a psionic power"?

That's another reason clones of your self capable of casting those spells is handy.

I don't understand why you think this trick is supposed to be impressive or interesting. You clones are half your level, and can cast 3rd level spells. So the big payoff here seems to be that you get to swap around your 3rd level spells by paying a lot of XP. That just seems way less impressive than substitute domain allowing the Beguiler to swap around (some of) their 7th level spells for 0 XP, or the Beguiler getting the Rainbow Servant capstone in two levels. And you spend one of your four 5th level spells known on a spell that has no direct impact on your character's power.

Like how neither one of you can truly deal with polymorph so you're moved to attacking which forms can be choosen and these made up points.

Well, we would have to attack made up points to argue with you on this, because your "points" are just repeatedly saying "polymorph" in increasingly agitated tones and wondering why everyone else hasn't conceded yet. The specific forms that have been discussed are things that the Beguiler can charm in groups. As it stands, there doesn't seem to even be enough evidence to call polymorph superior to charm monster. Not to mention that you seem to have conceded that every Sorcerer who doesn't pick polymorph -- which is to say the overwhelming majority of Sorcerers -- is worse than the fixed list casters, which seems like a win for them to me.

The irony here, naturally, is that you spent basically this entire post picking on the arguments of others, often for silly reasons like that I just talked about the positive utility of overlapping spells in any context, and didn't make any sort of argument in favor of the sorcerer. You spent two paragraphs complaining about the structure of an argument about third level spell selection and you never even listed your third level spell selection. Contrast with my post here, where I noted and elaborated on several ways that the beguiler functions and succeeds.

Also, for all that he lambasts people for failing to engage with pro-Sorcerer arguments, which as noted mostly consist of him naming spells and insisting that everyone else give up, he's completely ignored basically everything outside the specific lists of the fixed-list casters. Which is bizarre, because "expand your list" is way lower optimization for fixed-list casters then "take exactly polymorph and always pick the best forms" is for the Sorcerer.

Troacctid

2019-05-03, 07:09 PM

Also, warmages can take polymorph at 10th level too. Just saying.

Sleven

2019-05-03, 07:45 PM

Do you really think that everyone here ranks 8th level beguilers below 8th level sorcerers?

Pull off the "you're wrong" blinders. I was pointing out the fact that Cosi is the only one that disagrees that there is ever a point where sorcerer surpasses beguiler. The rest of us agree that sorcerers do surpass them, and the discussion is merely over at what level this happens.

There's some overlap, but overlap has utility too. Yes, the sorcerer has spells besides polymorph, but they're all of lower level, and those lower levels still feature meaningful beguiler advantages at 8th. Third level spells have the sorcerer combating 20 spells, a number of them excellent, with only two. I'm skeptical that two sorcerer picks would exceed the beguiler list. Seconds come a bit closer, because the sorcerer is running three spells there, but it's still a lot of spells to contend with, many still providing a range of additional utility. Alter self is good though. Finally, sorcerers are maybe favored with first level spells, but these are the lowest utility things, and the sorcerer's not even doing that great here.

Yeah, there's overlap, but the beguiler is advantaged where it matters and not disadvantaged significantly where it doesn't matter.

All I see is more ways of doing the same thing than you need + no way of dealing damage vs a large number of monsters.

They could have 100 more spells, it changes neither of these points.

The beguiler just generally tends to not do direct damage (except via charmed and/or dominated minions). Which is fine. Damaging spells are usually pretty lame. The beguiler shuts down enemies and battlefields and then any arbitrary damage source does the damage. The god wizard is a whole archetype, y'know?

How are charmed "minions" fighting for you again? Even dominated ones are likely to get a second save for putting their lives on the line for someone other than themselves. And at 8th level, you aren't at dominated anything yet.

Damaging spells may be lame, but damage is necessary to finish a large number of encounters. "Any arbitrary source" isn't a beguiler class feature either, and we're here comparing two classes. All I hear is that the beguiler has party composition limitations while the sorcerer doesn't, which is one of the main points I've been making.

Also, at least a "god" wizard can still damage any monster type if they so choose, something a beguiler can't claim.

Wait a sec. The whole point of the dispel magic is that you trigger multiple runes simultaneously. Wouldn't a summoned monster reading the first rune immediately trigger it, thus destroying any remaining runes and the summoned monster? This seems a lot less efficient as a strategy without the dispel magic combo.

Why do you think they can't be tied to the same piece of writing?

The additional utility of the overlap is trivial to recognize. Higher level versions generally have more power but higher cost, lower level versions can be cast more often in spite of the lower power. Sometimes you need a major image, because that additional utility is necessary, and sometimes a silent image suffices. A comparison between, say, invisibility and greater invisibility reveals even more obvious non-overlap. The former's longer duration makes it good for scouty utility stuff, while the latter not being broken by attacks makes it good for combat oriented usage.

Also, it's really bizarre that you're going on the attack for my saying that overlap has utility, as if I was ignoring the actual utility the spells have in and of themselves. The argument was put to me that these spells overlap, limiting their utility, and I was responding to that claim. If the spells did not overlap at all, then the beguiler/sorcerer comparison would more clearly favor the beguiler.

The biggest issue here is that you're not subtracting the nullified value of the overlap and comparing based on what's left over.

The irony here, naturally, is that you spent basically this entire post picking on the arguments of others, often for silly reasons like that I just talked about the positive utility of overlapping spells in any context, and didn't make any sort of argument in favor of the sorcerer. You spent two paragraphs complaining about the structure of an argument about third level spell selection and you never even listed your third level spell selection. Contrast with my post here, where I noted and elaborated on several ways that the beguiler functions and succeeds.

A number of things he's had to say about others' arguments, particularly Cosi's, are more than valid and warranted.

Polymorph is "dealt with" by the fact that the beguiler has a ton of powerful spells at that level. Solid fog and charm monster for offense, greater mirror image, freedom of movement, and greater invisibility for defense, locate creature and charm monster again for utility, and then a pile of more marginal spells for when they are situationally useful. Polymorph is great, but it has a lot of difficulty standing up to that expansive list single handed. Noting rules limits on its capabilities means that it has even less capacity to stand up to that list. It turns out that when a class is fundamentally reliant on the operation of a single spell that is super weird and ambiguous in its operation, the arguments related to that class are going to center somewhat on clearing up those ambiguities.

Polymorph deals with all those spells by virtue of the fact that it's capable of providing counters or immunities to all of them, in addition to other utility and real offensive power (something I've repeatedly pointed out as a flaw of the beguiler only to have you insist it doesn't matter despite the head-to-head class comparison). All that neatly packaged into one spell that the beguiler doesn't get.

Not remotely. Slevin has been agreeing with you, and I've been saying that the arguments you've been making, the ones they've been agreeing with, are thoroughly disagreeable. They also took an argument I was making about something you said somewhat out of context. Said argument's relation to you is a pretty important thing.

How do you figure?

dragonblood spell-pact allows you to swap spells with other people. There is no possible definition of "self contained" in which trading spells with other people is "entirely self contained". The simulacrum trick is self-contained, but it allows you to swap 3rd level spells at 14th level, and no one cares. Also, under a strict reading of simulacrum it doesn't work. I personally think it does, but I mention this because people insist on unfavorable readings of every Beguiler trick.

So you make the claim it isn't self contained, and then immediately admit it is self contained. There are better ways to concede a point.

Besides, you lack creativity if you think Simulacrum is the earliest or only way to swap spells on your own. Spells like Call Dragon exist, as do feats like Improved Familiar, or any of the other numerous ways a sorcerer with their own spell list and no other items or party members can use Dragonblood Spell-pact.

But yea, denial can be a real problem for some people.

You have yet to present a list-expansion option that applies to the Sorcerer but not the Beguiler. As noted, if we operate in a paradigm where people expand their lists and then launder those spells into new ones, the Beguiler is just like the Sorcerer, except it has more baseline spells by a factor of between two and ten. And you're ignoring the list-expansion options available to the Beguiler, like Prestige Domains.

Oh you mean like Dragonblood Spell-pact? See previous quote and reply. ^

Prestige Domains are not self contained, unlike everything I've brought up for the sorcerer. This = an advantage. When you finally get around to adding them up, you might see that one of the classes has more overall with more inherent value in each.

Who cares? It's a no-save lockdown that lasts as long as you want it to. You can entire bypass the encounter entirely, or you win if there is anyone on your side who can deal any damage. And it takes a single 1st level spell slot. If the Sorcerer would like to claim that spending a 4th level slot to beat an encounter with a higher level of risk is an improvement, he is free to do so.

First of all, whatever spell you're talking about (Silent Image?) is available to sorcerers.

Secondly, it doesn't invalidate my point because there are still plenty of scenarios where avoiding/bypassing an encounter is not good enough.

No one claimed whatever else you're trying to babble about 4th level spells.

Sure. But that doesn't help your case. Now you're comparing the second-best Sorcerer spell to every Beguiler spell plus the Bloodline spell. You were already loosing when it was explosive runes versus the entire Beguiler spell list, if you want to (as Mato suggests) get explosive runes and dispel magic, your 3rd level spell selection is strictly worse than the Beguilers, because she gets those and 19 other spells.

Trying to make up an argument for me is called a straw man, right? Or is it a red herring because you're trying to distract people from the main point? In this case I think it's both.

People have called the reading questionable, but no one has presented an argument for why it is questionable. The last thread someone did that in, that interpretation of the rules made Advanced Learning dysfunctional, and was inconsistent with the treatment of Extra Spell. I'm not inclined to give a lot of credibly to readings that break the rules in an effort to prove that someone's favorite class shouldn't face competition. In any case, I'm perfectly happy to accept that an argument about Apprentice depends on the text of Apprentice. In fact, I would rather hope it does. But I've made other arguments -- like the ones about Prestige Domains -- which have nothing to do with Apprentice. If your big gotcha is "your claims about a feat depend on that feat", you can color me unimpressed.

More like you've been on a one man crusade for Apprentice working the way you want it to this entire thread.

I've already pointed out why:
A) It doesn't matter if the DM decides to let it work because you wouldn't stop ranting about it. This is because of spell-role overlap and additional spells being made available to sorcerers in no small quantity.
B) Why in the more likely case it doesn't work, it's another advantage for the sorcerer that the beguiler doesn't get.

But please, keep refusing to address either of these points.

You can progress your innate spellcasting without taking a Sorcerer level. And the Phaerimm trick either doesn't work or works for PrCs as well. Thus far you have presented zero reasons for any of these creatures to take a single Sorcerer level, and thus zero reason that their admittedly substantial power should be in any way attributed to the Sorcerer class.

Except all that text beforehand you conveniently ignored in your post.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Also, can you now? They seem to all say "class" in my books.

Either way, it's still sorcerer casting off the sorcerer spell list with sorcerer spells per day and sorcerer spells known. So really, you don't have a point.

You've just described "takes advantage of downtime to increase their power" as a downside. In any case, to use dragonbood spell-pact at 10th -- as you initially were claiming they could -- Sorcerers have to find not just "any monster with a low will save that isn't immune to charm monster" but "specifically a dragonblood spellcaster with whatever spell I want to learn who wants one of my spells and is willing to spend several hundred XP". Plus, after doing all that, they're stuck with a 5th level spell that doesn't do anything, unless you want to admit that their use of the spell is exactly identical to the Beguiler's use of it.

You've just ignored the point, again.

And yet sorcerers can still perform in this scenario without Dragonblood Spell-pact or downtime. Gee. It's almost as if you're bringing up something unrelated and irrelevant to try to be right about something, even if it is a--was it a strawman? Or a red herring? You're sticking to my points so little I get confused.

Burn a bunch of XP for spell access marginally better than a Beguiler with substitute domain until you run out of 7th level spell slots? Of course, the Beguiler can get limited wish as well, so it seems like in this case what limited wish does for the Sorcerer is cost them eight spells known. Oh, and it pushes the already dubiously useful dragonblood spell-pact + simulacrum trick back even further.

Oh look, you're doing it again.

In summary, you like to try and nitpick against strawman arguments in favor of addressing any of the real issues being presented to you, or the details as they relate to them. And somehow you think everyone is oblivious to this? Or maybe you're just oblivious to yourself?

But your personal shout out of a debate, as we all can see with a couple of clicks, has been cherry picked and reformatted that into something you and eggy feel like you have a chance to argue about instead of actually discussing what's been said.

This sums things up pretty well too.

And you keep pretending that having minions isn't a feasible option. Minions do damage. I'm pretty sure your charmed and hasted raging orc barbarians are doing a fair bit of damage. Even if you only have, say, 2. And you can't convince me it's hard to get a couple orc barbarians to fail a will save, nor that they'd be arguing too much with you telling them to "smash that guy."

False. I've only ever mentioned that it isn't always feasible and that the sorcerer can do it too. The sorcerer not suffering in such instances is an advantage. Why is that so hard to admit?

Also, please stop using Charm [anything] as an example of minionmancy (this goes for all beguiler posters). The spell explicitly tells you, "An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders," and combat is harmful.

I'm assuming I have at least as much downtime as your dragonpact sorcerer does to go out and make his clone, retrain it, and swap things back and forth. If you're setting up a campaign where it literally will not work to find some thugs to mind-whammy into being effective minions, sure, the Beguiler is useless. But that's a very specific campaign. It's extremely rare for the ONLY thing around to be undead and constructs and there to be NO time nor freedom to deliberately hunt down cannon fodder to mind-control. It takes no more than a day. If you're evil enough, it just takes "persuading" the toughs in the starting town to be your muscle.

Why do people think Dragonblood Spell-pact has anything to do with this scenario, or that sorcerer isn't fine without it?

You're starting to debate like Cosi. Don't debate like Cosi, it's a bad look.

You're the one who keeps saying that the inability to do damage means the Beguiler can't "finish the job." Roll your eyes all you want, but recognize that you're creating hypocritical switching goal posts as you do so.

??? It's an aside. You should read your reply directly north of this one before talking about goal posts.

If you want to play a necromancer minionmancer, you're not dropping the undead spells. Which is why I say, for that purpose, Dread Necromancer is the better class. Also, as big a fan as I am of putting limited wish on any Sorcerer build, pretending it's an actual equivalent substitute for any number of downtime spells is disingenuous: XP may be a river, but it's not limitless.

Wait, why wouldn't a minion master eschew an HD limited no abilities or class features version of undead minions for one with neither of those limitations? Or one that can create the inferior versions of undead for them? It's almost as if some minions are far superior as far as resource expenditure goes, and as if spells can have overlap.

Also, Limited Wish is a substitute when you would be spending at least as much XP on those spells as you would on Limited Wish. Or did you not read that part of the spell description?

eggynack

2019-05-03, 09:18 PM

All I see is more ways of doing the same thing than you need + no way of dealing damage vs a large number of monsters.

They could have 100 more spells, it changes neither of these points.

I'm still really not sure why you think dealing damage matters overmuch. I generally barely even look at the "damaging" beguiler spells, because direct damage isn't all that great. A lot of the better beguiler effects also don't overlap that much. The ones I tend to list especially tend not to have that quality.

How are charmed "minions" fighting for you again? Even dominated ones are likely to get a second save for putting their lives on the line for someone other than themselves. And at 8th level, you aren't at dominated anything yet.
Charm explicitly limits you away from suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but not for very dangerous ones. Diplomacy can potentially increase friendly to helpful which can mean more direct combat oriented help.

Damaging spells may be lame, but damage is necessary to finish a large number of encounters. "Any arbitrary source" isn't a beguiler class feature either, and we're here comparing two classes. All I hear is that the beguiler has party composition limitations while the sorcerer doesn't, which is one of the main points I've been making.
It's not a particularly meaningful party composition limitation. Just about any party is going to have an arbitrary damage source. Classes without a means of dealing damage are relatively rare.

Also, at least a "god" wizard can still damage any monster type if they so choose, something a beguiler can't claim.
But they don't typically so choose, and this is doubly the case for sorcerers who don't have the option to swap spells easily. I'd technically have the option to pick up some damage on a sorcerer build, but I'd be pretty unlikely to until it can be tied to other utility with polymorph.

Why do you think they can't be tied to the same piece of writing?

I assumed they would be tied to the same piece of writing. I just don't think you can read the second explosive runes before the first one explodes. It's not like there's a time delay written into the spell.

The biggest issue here is that you're not subtracting the nullified value of the overlap and comparing based on what's left over.

I haven't even been talking that much about the more similar spells. I've never mentioned any higher level images, for example, except in specific response to the question of how overlapping spells are important. I have mentioned greater invisibility, but that's a substantially different spell.

A number of things he's had to say about others' arguments, particularly Cosi's, are more than valid and warranted.

He made one claim about dragon-blood spell pact that could be theoretically construed as relevant, and the rest was just complaining about being slightly misrepresented as taking on a position that he was only ardently defending.

Polymorph deals with all those spells by virtue of the fact that it's capable of providing counters or immunities to all of them, in addition to other utility and real offensive power (something I've repeatedly pointed out as a flaw of the beguiler only to have you insist it doesn't matter despite the head-to-head class comparison). All that neatly packaged into one spell that the beguiler doesn't get.

Immunity to beguiler spells isn't exactly the test of a spell. Solid fog does also provide real offensive power. Just not damage.

How do you figure?
Well, for example, you said that explosive runes is enough to outdo the beguiler at 6th level, I said that the beguiler list, which includes dispel magic, more than beats that spell, Mato said that your beguiler obviously had dispel magic because they had explosive runes, I pointed out that they did not have dispel magic because it was 6th level, and then you argued with me about how explosive runes is fine without dispel magic. So, I pointed out the Mato context, which was a pretty necessary thing. And that is how I figure, to get us back to the present moment.

Cosi

2019-05-03, 09:28 PM

I was pointing out the fact that Cosi is the only one that disagrees that there is ever a point where sorcerer surpasses beguiler.

I actually did say there was a point. It's just that you then introduced a spell that solves all the problems the Beguiler has, and none of the problems the Sorcerer has, as a reason the Sorcerer was better. You were winning this argument until you decided to start arguing, which I have to say is a great look. dragonblood spell-pact means that instead of it being polymorph any object/greater planar binding/whatever eighth level spell you like best v the Beguiler list at 16th level -- a comparison I think the Sorcerer can be reasonably argued to win, and probably strongly -- it's that one spell versus the best 7 eighth level spells. That's literally unwinnable. You've introduced an ability that allows the Beguiler to be strictly better than you.

The biggest issue here is that you're not subtracting the nullified value of the overlap and comparing based on what's left over.

See, again with the Sorcerer perspective. The value of the overlap isn't subtracted, it's just not counted more than once. It's the differences that matter, and differences that wouldn't matter for a Sorcerer, because they don't have enough spells known to get additional value of out similar spells, do matter when you know five times as many spells as a Sorcerer.

So you make the claim it isn't self contained, and then immediately admit it is self contained. There are better ways to concede a point.

It's self contained for swapping 3rd level spells within restricted parameters at 14th level at high cost. I'll freely admit that's true. But that's just not especially useful. It's not useless, there are plenty of 3rd level spells that do useful things at that level, and having access to more of them is good. But if that's all you're planning on bringing to the table, you're not beating the Beguiler.

with their own spell list and no other items or party members

Why do we care about this standard? Specifically, the "your own spell list" and "no other items" parts. Excluding party members is reasonable. But no one demands that we evaluate the power of Artificers with only their infusions, and not scrolls/wands/staffs from other classes. And the "no items" restriction is particularly bizarre given that your first suggestion costs gold. I agree that you can define the restrictions you put on what characters are allowed to do in a way that favors the Sorcerer in this comparison. But you can do that for any pair of classes in any direction. This is just like the people who try to claim "but what if they wrestle naked in an AMF" as a win for the Fighter over the Wizard.

When you finally get around to adding them up, you might see that one of the classes has more overall with more inherent value in each.

Yes, that would be the Beguiler. You've all but admitted that it's stronger in every low or mid op situation, as the only comparison you seem willing to do is against a Sorcerer picking exactly the best spells. In high optimization it benefits more from many of the options suggested for the Sorcerer (e.g. dragonblood spell-pact), and has powerful options of its own (e.g. Prestige Domains).

More like you've been on a one man crusade for Apprentice working the way you want it to this entire thread.

One could make the same claim about you and Sorcerer racial options.

It doesn't matter if the DM decides to let it work because you wouldn't stop ranting about it. This is because of spell-role overlap and additional spells being made available to sorcerers in no small quantity.

I literally don't understand what you're trying to say here. It doesn't matter if the DM doesn't houserule it to not work because then I'd keep talking about it? Is it supposed to be some burn on me that I would talk about abilities that worked? And again, everything you say about the Beguiler list being bad is a reason that swapping spells is better for them. You're making my argument for me.

Why in the more likely case it doesn't work,

Begging the question. There's been one argument presented against it, and I think I've rebutted that fairly well. Present some evidence before drawing conclusions.

Except all that text beforehand you conveniently ignored in your post.

Conceded. I admit that Dragon spellcasting is sufficently not Sorcerer spellcasting that it is not advanced by things that advance Sorcerer spellcasting. Since we agree that the abilities are distinct, you can stop bringing this up as an advantage of the Sorcerer.

And yet sorcerers can still perform in this scenario without Dragonblood Spell-pact or downtime.

Perhaps. But not decisively so, and they perform worse with either of those tools available, even if they are available to both characters. And you don't need downtime to use charm monster. The overwhelming majority of adventures will have something you can charm, and since minions are basically permanent thanks to Diplomacy (which, incidentally, is why they fight for you), you can miss a few adventures and still be more effective than the Sorcerer is.

Mato

2019-05-04, 12:54 AM

It's not about the overlap, it's about the parts that don't overlap.

Yes, it's initially a Sorcerer spell. That just seems way less impressive than substitute domain allowing the Beguiler to swap around (some of) their 7th level spells for 0 XPThat's the best and probably worse things you said in that post that were relevant.

The problem with the first part is you are trying to say the tiny differences in overlapping spells doesn't matter to the sorcerer. That's correct, but for the wrong reasons. The beguiler has no direct minion creation, he cannot lay traps, he cannot truly damage someone (whelm is just mechanically a terrible save-or-noonecares), he cannot transport his party anywhere, he cannot really give people extra turns or actions, nearly everything he does prompts a save to negate it, he has a ton of issues with mind-affecting & SR, and there are multiple issues tied to his spells. And let's branch into that.

Like for some reason we just keep coming back to charm person. I know it's a large deal to a beguiler but try to actually read the spell. It does not of those things listed above, if you attempt to use it to stop an opponent in an encounter they gain a +5 bonus to their save. You cannot use a charmed target to do anything harmful, like attack someone. It checks spell resistance. It requires you to know the same language. It requires an opposed charisma check to have them do something they wouldn't have already done for you. It requires extra real life diplomacy check with the DM and probably one in game if the request is dangerous. The spell is completely negated by 1st level spells and magical items that can cast it once per day for 360gp. And once you obtain the dominate version, which has many of the same problems, you will never again use the charm version. You look at charm & dominate and think dominate adds something because it covers new things, but in reality it replaces a spell. You cannot count allows you to try order an NPC to do something twice.

But the very thing you are trying to push for is the strength of the sorcerer. His goal is to find forty spells with the least amount of overlap as possible. It's not that he will never cast charm person if he has dominate person, it's that he will never waste a known slot on charm person if he has dominate person. To him, using a cheater method to reduce geas's casting time down to one round replaces several spells, including one of the beguiler's that won't even be available for another six levels. This is also why the spell chain of alter self, polymorph, and shapechange are so huge. Changing into another creature covers all mobility & sensory spells, it replicates hundreds of buff-style spells, and even grants area based crowd control effects.

This is also why you still cannot discuss Sleven's example of shrink item. You are trying to make a point that silent image's ability to let you hide in the corner, only if everyone doesn't have a special sense, and never interacts with your illusion, so long as you commit 100% of your standard actions to it, is great. But shrink item let's you "summon" a real wall to hide behind or a real bridge to walk across, or a real floor made out of lava with wet wood piled on top of it creating difficult terrain with concealment and murder. It's higher leveled alternative, minor creation, pretty much allows for on the spot summoning for free poison and alchemical items giving you a new range of buffs & protections, ability damage and save-or-dies. With minor creation the only reason a sorcerer would bother learning ray of stupidity, Lahm's finger darts, or greater shivering touch is to bypass his opponent's ability to roll a save. And those spells are the kind of spells a god-style wizard would use to point out how useless the beguiler is to him.

You can keep on saying how we keep seeing things from a sorcerer's prospective, yes. Yes. And yes. A sorcerer is not going to learn the beguiler's terrible time stop spell, he is going to learn planar bubble to grant him and his entire party ten times the amount of actions four levels sooner in the game and there is no reason for someone with that kind of thinking to care about haggling out some kind of extremely limited value out of time stop. It's worthless. You should stop trying to triple count the beguiler's spells while telling everyone on the sorcerer's side not to.

And now let's go to the worst thing you have said: You gave up on the beguiler. You stopped talking about how limited the beguiler's list is because you're slowly realizing how limited it is so now, backed into a corner and up against a wall, you want to talk about the sorcerer's & cleric's spells the beguiler doesn't get. You want to talk about how the rainbow servant prestigious class is so great you could put it on a fixed-list class that has no class features but spellcasting and 0 spells known and it'd still be better than the beguiler, dread necromancer, and warmage combined and pretend that it's the beguiler you're talking about. You are pleading to be allowed to grab magical items to make up for every short coming in beguiler class that gets pointed out to you. You think this is a good thing, it should be allowed, while missing the point that every single time you do this you admit to yet another limitation the beguiler falls short on.

Finally, as I have grown bored of this thread. I have one last thing for you all to consider. In any other thread Treantmonk's guide to a god-style wizard would be called the best guide to one of the most powerful classes in D&D. And this guide calls the people that learn stuff like charm person and suggestion the fop. And it advises you that you would be wasting your precious spells and you should get someone else to cover it. And so I submit the entire guide as a highlight reel of why the beguiler sucks. And if you think an area save-or-debuff makes the beguiler a god-style caster, well just add the best one you can find to the list of the sorcerer's spells known. He now has 39 spells left to pick.

Cosi

2019-05-04, 07:17 AM

Like for some reason we just keep coming back to charm person.

Yes, I am aware that if you rattle off all the limitations of a spell and none of the advantages it sounds bad. And yes, the spell has restrictions. It's not as useful when the fight has started. But you have all the stealth in the world as a Beguiler. And yes, it has counters. But if the DM has to specifically tech every fight against one of your 11 spells, that seems like a win to me, because you still have 10 other spells. And yes, your DM might not allow it. But have you seen every single thing you've suggested a Sorcerer do? If it does work, you get a friendly creature that you Diplomacy to helpful with a check you can't fail, and now have a permanent minion. That's simply way better than polymorph temporarily turning you into a creature.

It's not that he will never cast charm person if he has dominate person, it's that he will never waste a known slot on charm person if he has dominate person.

Okay, great. That gives us a concrete weakness of the Sorcerer compared to the Beguiler. He can't economize on resources in a situation where charm person is sufficient to resolve a problem. Those situations may be rare, but they'll definitely exist, and in them he's forced to spend a 5th level spell slot while the Beguiler can get away with a 1st level spell slot.

This is also why you still cannot discuss Sleven's example of shrink item.

I've literally explicitly mentioned shrink item in my posts. It's worse than glibness. And any argument that assumes the Sorcerer has to pick exactly X spell is still basically a concession that the fixed-list casters are better 99% of the time.

And now let's go to the worst thing you have said: You gave up on the beguiler. You stopped talking about how limited the beguiler's list is because you're slowly realizing how limited it is so now, backed into a corner and up against a wall, you want to talk about the sorcerer's & cleric's spells the beguiler doesn't get.

No, I want to talk about all the mechanics of the fixed list casters. Just as the Sorcerer picking their spells is good for them, the fixed-list casters instantly learning any spells added to their list is good for them. If you want to ignore that, I'll ignore the Sorcerer's ability to pick the five specific spells explosive runes, shrink item, polymorph, dragonblood spell-pact, and simulacrum, and declare victory because that's basically everything you've bothered to discuss.

You want to talk about how the rainbow servant prestigious class is so great you could put it on a fixed-list class that has no class features but spellcasting and 0 spells known and it'd still be better than the beguiler, dread necromancer, and warmage combined and pretend that it's the beguiler you're talking about.

But it would be better than the Sorcerer too. And that's the question we're asking, isn't it? "Are fixed list casters better than the Sorcerer?" It seems like if you can make the case that there's a point where a fixed list caster with no list becomes better than the Sorcerer, the fixed list casters that actually know spells are probably way better than the Sorcerer. I've never contested that if you make this about just class features versus just class features, the Sorcerer eventually wins. But I've also never accepted that as a useful or relevant comparison. Characters aren't just a list of class features, they use PrCs, feats, and items that make those class features better. If you have to lock the Beguiler out of those things to win, then you aren't actually winning.

You think this is a good thing, it should be allowed, while missing the point that every single time you do this you admit to yet another limitation the beguiler falls short on.

Again, only in the sense that "loses a naked wrestling match in an AMF" is a weakness of the Wizard compared to the Fighter. People get WBL, which they can use to buy items. People get feat slots, which they use to take feats. People can take PrC levels. If you think the Beguiler's use of those things is falling short, show us how the Sorcerer could use them more effectively. The Beguiler is going to spend 25k GP on a knowstone of dragonblood spell-pact (possibly there's something cheaper, I didn't check). The Sorcerer doesn't have to do that. Instead of complaining that the Beguiler spends money they get on items that exist, tell me how the Sorcerer spends that money more effectively. Because I'm open to the argument that he could. But I have no interest in an argument that claims that spending money on items is cheating, any more than I have an interest in an argument that assumes we're having a naked AMF cage match.

He now has 39 spells left to pick.

Sure, at 20th level. But that's the best level for the Sorcerer in the entire game. If we're talking about 1st level -- and why wouldn't we be, it's as much of the game as 20th and sees more play -- he has five more spells to pick, and four of those are 0th level. The Beguiler has twice as many 1st level spells as he has spells at all.

Karl Aegis

2019-05-04, 11:20 AM

No, I want to talk about all the mechanics of the fixed list casters. Just as the Sorcerer picking their spells is good for them, the fixed-list casters instantly learning any spells added to their list is good for them. If you want to ignore that, I'll ignore the Sorcerer's ability to pick the five specific spells explosive runes, shrink item, polymorph, dragonblood spell-pact, and simulacrum, and declare victory because that's basically everything you've bothered to discuss.

Fixed-list casters don't instantly learn any spell added to their spell list. That simply isn't true.

Cosi

2019-05-04, 11:27 AM

Fixed-list casters don't instantly learn any spell added to their spell list. That simply isn't true.

Yes, they do. That's how Advanced Learning works.

Karl Aegis

2019-05-04, 09:39 PM

Yes, they do. That's how Advanced Learning works.

"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler’s spell list." -PHB 2, Page 6

Advanced Learning does not give a Spell Known.

Cosi

2019-05-04, 10:20 PM

Advanced Learning does not give a Spell Known.

That is correct. It adds a spell to your list. You can then cast that spell, because you can cast all the spells on your list.

Karl Aegis

2019-05-04, 11:02 PM

That is correct. It adds a spell to your list. You can then cast that spell, because you can cast all the spells on your list.

You can cast that spell because it says you can. On Page 7 of Player's Handbook II, it says a beguiler can cast any spell they know. You need to know the spell you want to cast is the general rule.

Cosi

2019-05-04, 11:55 PM

You can cast that spell because it says you can.

It says you can cast it (and I quote) "just like any other spell on your list". There is no more specific permission here. You can cast all the spells on your list. That's what the Beguiler's Spells ability says, and it's what the Beguiler's Advanced Learning ability says. There is no support anywhere in the class for the distinction you are claiming. Just like there wasn't any support for it when Grim Reader was claiming it four or five pages ago, and just like there wasn't any support for it back when the Sorcerer side claimed it last time we had this debate. The Beguiler class makes no distinction between "spells on your list", "spells you know", and "spells you can cast". Anywhere.

Segev

2019-05-05, 02:35 AM

Just to clarify: Charm can absolutely get people who are generally willing to fight to fight on your behalf, especially against foes they have no special fondness for. It can’t get them to fight suicidally, but orcs and ogres won’t typically consider fighting in pitched combat against foes that aren’t overwhelmingly powerful “suicidal.”

All I’m sayin about the Beguiler’s ability to “finish the job” against things immune to their best spells is that they can have allies who can finish said job for them. Big, burly allies who h e no problem delivering hit point damage to undead, for instance. It just takes some preparation. Preparation that a Beguiler should be engaging in even when not specifically anticipating foes immune to their best spells.

Gnaeus

2019-05-05, 08:20 AM

Karl Aegis

2019-05-05, 11:18 AM

It says you can cast it (and I quote) "just like any other spell on your list". There is no more specific permission here. You can cast all the spells on your list. That's what the Beguiler's Spells ability says, and it's what the Beguiler's Advanced Learning ability says. There is no support anywhere in the class for the distinction you are claiming. Just like there wasn't any support for it when Grim Reader was claiming it four or five pages ago, and just like there wasn't any support for it back when the Sorcerer side claimed it last time we had this debate. The Beguiler class makes no distinction between "spells on your list", "spells you know", and "spells you can cast". Anywhere.

"A beguiler need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that spell level."

becomes:

"A beguiler need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast the selected spell at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that spell level."

with Advanced Learning. That's it. No, figurative language is not actual rules because it's figurative language. The actual rules say you can cast any spell you know, no figurative language, no reading between the lines, no arguing. That's the general rule. The general rule also points out the exception: Advanced Learning.

"You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature (see below) as you increase in level."

The option. Only one option. It never mentions Advanced Learning as a source of a new spell known. It only does what it says it does, nothing more, nothing less.

Cosi

2019-05-05, 11:43 AM

While I’m in complete agreement with Cosi on this rules discussion, I’m going to just use it as one more example of my argument that who comes out on top is going to depend heavily on what comparative optimization means for your group and how a number of rules calls go.

This is true, and also why I think it's a bizarre strategic move for the Sorcerer side to focus so narrowly on one or two of the best spells at each level. polymorph is in the 99th percentile of 4th level spells. If you can only make your case based on that, your case is pretty fragile. It's true that Sorcerers picking from the 10th percentile of spells is going to be rare enough to be irrelevant, but there are some Sorcerers who are picking spells at the 50th or 70th percentile. And no one seems at all willing to defend those guys at mid levels. Or, frankly, at high levels.

"A beguiler need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that spell level."

That's not the relevant rule. That's just boilerplate for spontaneous casters, with the specific class "Beguiler" written instead of some other spontaneous casting class like "Sorcerer" or "Warmage". Everyone casts known spells, the question is how your list of known spells is derived. The relevant rule is the one that says:

you automatically know all the spells for that level on the Beguiler's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list.

That's the relevant text, because it's the text that explains how the list of known spells the Beguiler can cast from is derived. Specifically, it's derived by looking at their spell list and saying "yep, all of that". Your suggestion that Prestige Domains could fail to work because they add spells to the character's list, but do not give them spells known is not supported. Now let's take a look at Advanced Learning:

you can add a new spell to your list .... Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast like any other spell on your list.

This is not making an exception to the general rule. It is explicitly calling back to that general rule to explain that adding a spell to the Beguiler's spell list is sufficient to allow them to cast it. So, where, exactly is this mysterious "spells on your list that you don't know" supposed to come from? Are we supposed to believe that Prestige Domains implicitly created an entirely new category of spell wholly unsupported by any of the existing text of the Beguiler's abilities?

It never mentions Advanced Learning as a source of a new spell known.

Yes, exactly. That's because Advanced Learning doesn't give you a spell known. It adds a spell to your list. Which you can then cast, because you can cast all the spells on your list. That's what the Spells ability says, and that's what the Advanced Learning ability says. All the relevant text is in totally agreement on this point: if a spell is on the Beguiler's list, they can cast that spell.

Karl Aegis

2019-05-05, 10:54 PM

The point in contention was:

"Spells: A beguiler casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the beguiler spell list on page 11. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler’s spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time."

Not some kind of prestige domain witchhunt. You claimed they knew (don't need to know) can cast all spells on their list instantly. The rules say you get spells known at certain points in your leveling career. You, Cosi, and apparently Gnaeus agrees, most recently claimed they can cast any spell on their list at any time... I don't know what to say to this. Spam Power Word Kill on everything you see starting at level 1. You don't need spell slots or spells known, just cast from the list and break the game. That doesn't even resemble what the book says the class does, but... have fun, guys. Have fun....

Mordaedil

2019-05-06, 04:08 AM

I'm trying really hard, but I can't see the difference in the distinction of your argument.

Can someone lay out of the difference in play for how the readings differ? Is it whether your can cast the spell attained from Advanced Learning an unlimited number of times per day or whether it uses the spells per day per level resource you possess?

Is this actually in doubt, what was intended behind the writing? I'm incredibly confused.

Florian

2019-05-06, 05:25 AM

Let my phrase it this way:

1) I think the authors of the class(es) made two huge errors, one is using a descriptive term (know a spell) when we have a nearly identical technical term in the game (Spells Known). The second is that, unlike with the initial PHB classes, they got lazy and didn't establish the class feature as something that is self-contained, but established it in relation to Sorcerer spellcasting. (In non-technical parlance, even Wizards know their spells. It would be weird to have unknown spells in your spell book (unless, of course, we establish a mechanic that allows them to memorize spells that they don't have any knowledge of what they do, which isn't the case))

2) Try as I might, I don't find any Spells Known (the technical term) mechanic in the rules for FL casters. Spells Per Day, yes, Spell List, there too, but no Spells Known. So I think that mechanics that specifically target Spell Lists work, but ones specifically targeting Spells Known fail. Anything beyond that is not established and open to interpretation.

3) The difference between having the Spell List class feature and the access to the spells on the list. Having the class feature is a passive thing that is only relevant for mechanics that specifically check for the existence of said class feature, like the ability to use wands and scrolls without resorting to UMD. In this case, it is just a binary thing that you either have the class feature or not. The way that the spell casting entry is phrased, access to the spells on the list is keyed to the Spells Per Day class feature. Unless you actually have 3rd levels spell casting unlocked by gaining Spell Slots via Spells Per Day, access to 3rd level spells is simply not granted.

Grim Reader

2019-05-06, 06:33 AM

Or to put it another way, I think Karl Aegis is saying that under the Rules As Written, fixed list casters only gain access to new spells when a) they level up and gain access to a new spell level, and b) through advanced learning. Further, the spells they gain access to is specified, the spells on their list of the new level, and the spell targeted with advanced learning. I am not sure I agree, but I can see the argument.

Arcane Devotee says you learn the spells as normal for your class. Normal for a fixed list caster is you know all the spells on your list.

As normal for your class includes all restrictions on the class. Including the restrictions on spontaneous casters gaining domain spells.

Everyone else in the thread is saying it was unsuccessful. By my reckoning, they are correct to say so.

Thats not actually true, you know. I'll assume you are being humorous.

Why would you need to be surrounded by enemies? There's nothing stopping you from hitting the same enemy a bunch of times with all the attacks.

I'm not sure how transferable this is, but a Duskblade thats full channelling does not get spell effects stacking on a single target. Hit an an enemy four times with Vampiric Touch, only the highest roll applies.

I think the existence of dragonblood spell-pact is the last nail in the coffin for any possibility the Sorcerer is better, because it makes all the arguments people have made about the fixed-list casters being bad arguments they're good.

I think the argument about Dragonblood Spell-Pact also rests on the assumption that whenever you can gain a spell known, you can gain a spell known from any list, unless it is specifically restrited to your own list. Whereas I hold that gaining spells known must be from your own list by default, unless its is specified that it need not be.

Consider that a Sorcerer can swap out a spell known at 4th level and every two levels after that, with no text stating the new spell has to be from the Sorcerer list.

Do you really think that everyone here ranks 8th level beguilers below 8th level sorcerers?
...
There's some overlap, but overlap has utility too. Yes, the sorcerer has spells besides polymorph, but they're all of lower level, and those lower levels still feature meaningful beguiler advantages at 8th. Third level spells have the sorcerer combating 20 spells, a number of them excellent, with only two. I'm skeptical that two sorcerer picks would exceed the beguiler list. Seconds come a bit closer, because the sorcerer is running three spells there, but it's still a lot of spells to contend with, many still providing a range of additional utility. Alter self is good though. Finally, sorcerers are maybe favored with first level spells, but these are the lowest utility things, and the sorcerer's not even doing that great here.

Yeah, there's overlap, but the beguiler is advantaged where it matters and not disadvantaged significantly where it doesn't matter.

Personally, I think its not so much 8th character level as 4th level spells. To me, they seem to represent a sea-change. At spell levels 1-3 the Beguiler list contains most or many of the top picks. A Sorcerer has to work to come up with top level spells not on the Beguiler list, and a lot of his top picks are on the Beguiler list. 4th level is the first time the Sorcerer has a list of top picks better than the Beguilers 4th level arsenal. I don't think a single 4th level spell is enough to overcome the cumulative advantage of the Beguilers advantage at spell levels 1-3 though. But the 4th level spells is where the Beguiler selection starts to drop below the Sorcerer options. But you're going to need more than one to overcome the the Beguilers advantage at the lower levels.

Cosi

2019-05-06, 06:55 AM

The rules say you get spells known at certain points in your leveling career.

No, they say you get access to a set of spells at those points. If that set changes -- whether by Advanced Learning, gaining a Prestige Domain, or some other mechanism -- you gain access to the changed set.

Can someone lay out of the difference in play for how the readings differ? Is it whether your can cast the spell attained from Advanced Learning an unlimited number of times per day or whether it uses the spells per day per level resource you possess?

Honestly, I'm not sure, because apparently Karl thinks my reading allows you to cast power word kill at 1st level. If he thinks that's what I'm arguing, I don't really trust myself to accurately describe what he's arguing, since the question of "can you cast 9th level spells from 1st level slots" is totally different from anything I would have considered a part of the discussion.

As normal for your class includes all restrictions on the class. Including the restrictions on spontaneous casters gaining domain spells.

Yes, they choose them. And fixed-list casters replace that process of choosing with "getting all of them". So fixed-list casters get all of them.

I think the argument about Dragonblood Spell-Pact also rests on the assumption that whenever you can gain a spell known, you can gain a spell known from any list, unless it is specifically restrited to your own list. Whereas I hold that gaining spells known must be from your own list by default, unless its is specified that it need not be.

That's not an "assumption" that's "the rules". The spell says you swap spells, not "you swap spells it the new one is on your list", and the person who brought it up for the Sorcerer was defending it allowing you to go off list.

Consider that a Sorcerer can swap out a spell known at 4th level and every two levels after that, with no text stating the new spell has to be from the Sorcerer list.

Well, that's a part of the class's "Spells" ability, so it seems reasonable to say that it maintains the same restrictions stated earlier in the ability. Things like Apprentice and dragonblood spell-pact are not, so they would have to inherent a general restriction, and the only one cited is pretty clearly doesn't apply. Even if you can go off list, it's not particularly useful. The swapped spell must be two levels bellow max, and you were already freely picking your spells known from the best spell list in the game. The only case where it's particularly powerful is Artificer-style dumpster diving for underleveled spells on weird lists. And at -2 levels, I'm not even sure you can get anything important early.

I don't think a single 4th level spell is enough to overcome the cumulative advantage of the Beguilers advantage at spell levels 1-3 though. But the 4th level spells is where the Beguiler selection starts to drop below the Sorcerer options. But you're going to need more than one to overcome the the Beguilers advantage at the lower levels.

4th level is where there are better spells, but the Beguiler has five times more 4th level spells when they get 4th level spells as the Sorcerer gets before 5th level spells. I'm pretty sure to close that gap you have to pick exactly polymorph and whatever the best complement to polymorph is, and use them perfectly effectively. And the Beguiler has to do no optimization of their own. We're talking about 99th percentile spell selection, which is not a reasonable point of comparison. If you assume something more reasonable, like 80th or even 90th percentile spell selection, there's still a decent chance you're picking spells on the Beguiler list. You'll eventually pull ahead as the Beguiler's spell list becomes weaker and smaller, and as you have a longer list of (semi) relevant low level spells. I think the absolute earliest you can argue that point is 10th, and I think you don't have a particularly strong case until 12th (or maybe 13th to get the extra 6th level spell). And all of this just to beat a Beguiler who does absolutely nothing to optimize.

Komatik

2019-05-06, 08:24 AM

re: Beguilers learning spells
I'm not entirely sure anything added to their list is unarguably castable: The text says Beguilers know all the spells on the beguiler list when they gain access to a new spell level. Practically, this results in spells known and their spell list being one and the same, but it's possible to interpret knowing spells as a discrete event that happens on level up and not necessarily a state of "you automatically know all the spells", though the latter makes good sense as well, especially given how Advanced Learning is worded.

If you read Advanced Learning like a DM interpreting Wish, you could argue it is added to the list but not spells known unless the AL is gained at a level when you get access to a new spell level which makes straight-classed Advanced Learning basically not function unless you read "any other spell on your list" to mean it is known as every other spell on your list is. If you read it that way, it's all good and you can still interpret the spell-knowing as discrete leveling up related events.

This is somewhat important for domains and other list expansions because under a single-event-at-levelup interpretation it means they can't retroactively add low-level spells to the Beguiler's list. They only allow them to learn spells when they could - which is at level up, in quantity "automatically know all of them", so the from taking the feat on part probably works favourably.

Insofar as those expansion options are available at reasonably low levels, it's not a big deal - the low level Beguiler list is bomb and doesn't particularily need shoring up, while the higher level ones still have pretty rad spells but definitely could use some shoring up.

re: Apprentice
I side with the interpretation that the spell should by default come from the class's own list, and that the feat doesn't work for Beguilers.

re:Dragonblood Spell-pact
I don't see a reading that wouldn't allow you to go off-list - it's two casters exchanging known spells. The bigger issue is finding someone willing to subject themselves to the ritual so you get an awesome win button and they get mass whelm - this is of course solved in part by scrolls and a friendly dragonblood Wizard who can benefit from the ritual and doesn't see an issue with you gaining great power, but that complicates the logistics a ton. It's very doubtful any sorcerer who knew the spell themselves would consent to these weird gimp trades unless they didn't have all halflings in the wagon.

Dragonblood spell-pact also has the potential for some hella weird interactions with the "continuous knowledge of the Beguiler spell list" interpretation mentioned earlier. It could in essence let a Beguiler trade a spell they know and have it be removed from their repertoire only for them to re-know it, stat. Definitely helps finding trading partners - true seeing and mass invisibility are much better trading fodder than overwhelm.

re:4th level spells / char level 8
It's definitely a turning point in that there's genuine options that are better than any single Beguiler spell alone, but as awesome as polymorph is, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, solid fog and charm monster are still a hefty pile of value at that level alone that you probably need at least two top picks to contest, nevermind the clean wins at 1-3. But it's a turning point for sure, not a shred of doubt about that.

Anthrowhale

2019-05-06, 09:56 AM

Arcane Fusion at level 10 also seems like a strong turning point to me.

Arcane Fusion[True Strike, L4-] means touch spells basically never miss.
Arcane Fusion[True Casting, L4-] means all spells are functionally SR:No.
Arcane Fusion also forms a good target for Arcane Thesis for metamagic abuse.

My current opinion is that Beguiler is a pretty good class. At its shtick, the Beguiler dominates the Sorcerer at all levels for a modestly optimized sorcerer. A well-optimized beguiler-imitation sorcerer starts to have significant strengths (e.g. Twin Arcane Fusion [Charm Monster, True Casting]) at level 12 but still retains weaknesses as well, never completely surpassing the Beguiler because of the Beguiler's excellent skill list + good spell list. A well-optimized general sorcerer starts having advantages a few levels earlier but is even more complementary. Rogue->Beguiler is a nearly pure upgrade. (Add Arcane Spellstrike to function in a striker role, if desired.)

The situation with Dread Necromancer v. Sorcerer is similar except that (a) they are entirely weaker at higher levels since they don't have the complementary skills and (b) a Mother Cyst sorcerer kicks in much sooner---a not-mind-affecting not-P-from-E-vulnerable dominate person effect at level 6 is pretty amazing. A similarly improved Dominate Monster effect at level 12 is also incredible.

For Warmage v Sorcerer, a well-optimized imitating Sorcerer generally keeps up with the Warmage through level 8-10 and then takes off towards over-powered territory afterwards.

The above is just taking into account spells and occasionally feats where noted. At higher levels of optimization (e.g. Drake Helm or Channel Charge), the classes blend together a great deal since every class has the means to produce nearly any desired effect.

Segev

2019-05-06, 11:18 AM

The situation with Dread Necromancer v. Sorcerer is similar except that (a) they are entirely weaker at higher levels since they don't have the complementary skills and (b) a Mother Cyst sorcerer kicks in much sooner---a not-mind-affecting not-P-from-E-vulnerable dominate person effect at level 6 is pretty amazing. A similarly improved Dominate Monster effect at level 12 is also incredible.

Point of order: Mother Cyst does the same thing for a Dread Necromancer.

Anthrowhale

2019-05-06, 11:58 AM

Point of order: Mother Cyst does the same thing for a Dread Necromancer.

That's fuzzy. Mother Cyst spells are only on the Cleric and Sorcerer/Wizard lists, so do you believe the spell or the feat?

DeTess

2019-05-06, 12:02 PM

That's fuzzy. Mother Cyst spells are only on the Cleric and Sorcerer/Wizard lists, so do you believe the spell or the feat?

The feat. specific trumps general, and mother cyst giving access to those spells is more specific than the classes listed with those spells in the spellbook. A lot of spells on the beguiler spell list in the PHB also don't mention that beguilers can cast them, after all.

Anthrowhale

2019-05-06, 01:06 PM

The feat.

This seems like a reasonable ruling. In that case, it's yet another example of how classes end up looking similar if you allow feats/items.

Segev

2019-05-06, 01:12 PM

This seems like a reasonable ruling. In that case, it's yet another example of how classes end up looking similar if you allow feats/items.

In a lot of cases, that's the point of feats/items. If they were meant to be class-specific, they'd be class features.

Gnaeus

2019-05-06, 02:02 PM

On one hand, you have to allow feats/items. If you ignore Natural Spell Druid looks a lot weaker than it plays. Fighters can’t do ANYTHING because they need magic weapons and armor to break DR and keep on the right AC/To Hit curves.

On the other hand, it isn’t a sure thing that all classes have the exact right gear they need. There’s no guarantee that the Druid can get aberration wildshape or the fighter can find an adamantine spiked chain with the enhancements he wants.

So we come back to comparative optimization. Which, again, from my perspective, helps Beguiler more than sorcerer both because he derives more benefit from spell list enhancements (based on my reading of what is RAW) and because he’s much better at UMD than the sorcerer, and as such is more likely to make optimum use of gear, whether found (looks like this wand is of Cure Critical Wounds, who gets to hold it until we can convert it to cash) or bought (it’s a lot easier to buy an item of Polymorph than of every 4th level beguiler Spell). But again, what is comparative is highly subjective and thus table specific.

liquidformat

2019-05-06, 02:19 PM

At 1st level the Beguiler is the best casting class in the game.

Second best actually, mystic ranger hands down trumps beguiler for the first 10 levels as the best full caster no question.

I think like a lot of people on here that the fixed list casters are better at there specific shtick whereas the sorcerer is better all around. Also on the topic of PRCs the difference in my opinion is the fixed list casters (except for warmage) are loosing something by PRCing whereas the sorcerer isn't, so the fixed list caster has to look at the trade offs of any PRC and what there goal is whereas the sorcerer has nothing to loose from PRCing outside of caster levels...

Anthrowhale

2019-05-06, 02:48 PM

Second best actually, mystic ranger hands down trumps beguiler for the first 10 levels as the best full caster no question.

Mystic Ranger 1 only has access to 0th level spells.

eggynack

2019-05-06, 05:54 PM

I think like a lot of people on here that the fixed list casters are better at there specific shtick whereas the sorcerer is better all around.
And again, I gotta ask, what is that shtick for beguilers? I guess I could see it argued that the beguiler "shtick" is god wizard, but that's a broad, incredibly powerful, and decidedly generalist oriented shtick right there.

Thurbane

2019-05-06, 06:01 PM

And again, I gotta ask, what is that shtick for beguilers? I guess I could see it argued that the beguiler "shtick" is god wizard, but that's a broad, incredibly powerful, and decidedly generalist oriented shtick right there.

I would hazard that the perceived schtick for Beguilers is the role of "magical trickster", since a fair chunk of their spell list is focused on misdirection, stealth and deception.

Cosi

2019-05-06, 07:08 PM

And again, I gotta ask, what is that shtick for beguilers? I guess I could see it argued that the beguiler "shtick" is god wizard, but that's a broad, incredibly powerful, and decidedly generalist oriented shtick right there.

The Beguiler has three clear niches, though given the nature of the class, any Beguiler is going to have some competence at all three. Most obvious is Skillmonkey. The baseline Beguiler has basically everything a skillmonkey could ask for, between a skill list that has all the skills you want, 6 skills/level with INT focus, and a spell list that has all the "do skillmonkey things" spells. That's where most Beguilers are going to end up, and they do it better than any other class in the game. That's not to say there aren't other builds that can do it satisfactorily while performing better in other areas, but the Beguiler is the best if you're just looking for someone to win skill encounters (and, of course, is fine elsewhere). The second big niche is Minion Master. You get charm monster, dominate person, and Diplomacy natively, and can pick up simulacrum and/or ice assassin if you want them. It's easy for a Beguiler to build an army of mooks, and they have haste to buff them (though admittedly little else). Finally, the Beguiler makes a great Utility Caster, particularly with list-expansion options. The Beguiler has far more spells "on tap" than any other class, and with substitute domain they have a level of within-the-day versatility that is practically unrivaled -- of the top of my head, only Spontaneous Divination + Versatile Spellcaster Wizards do better.

If you read Advanced Learning like a DM interpreting Wish, you could argue it is added to the list but not spells known unless the AL is gained at a level when you get access to a new spell level which makes straight-classed Advanced Learning basically not function unless you read "any other spell on your list" to mean it is known as every other spell on your list is. If you read it that way, it's all good and you can still interpret the spell-knowing as discrete leveling up related events.

That's basically my problem with the notion that Prestige Domains don't work. Given how Advanced Learning is phrased, I don't see a way for it to work, but Prestige Domains to not work. And since I think the interpretation where one of the core class features of the Beguiler doesn't work is not a good interpretation, I tend to think that you're pretty much stuck with an interpretation where Prestige Domains work. In general, I think the rules interpretations necessary to make various list-expansion tricks not work cause more problems than they solve, particularly because the problem they solve seems to mostly be "the Sorcerer might be worse than the Beguiler".

I side with the interpretation that the spell should by default come from the class's own list, and that the feat doesn't work for Beguilers.

Can I ask why? Many people claim it doesn't work, but they don't offer much by way of reasoning. It's certainly intuitive to think that the feat would give you spells from your class list, but many things in RAW don't work in an intuitive way. The one citation that was provided seems to pretty clearly be talking about how you gain spells from your class, not how you gain them in general. Since people seem pretty convinced I'm wrong, I would like to assume there's convincing evidence somewhere I simply haven't seen.

The bigger issue is finding someone willing to subject themselves to the ritual so you get an awesome win button and they get mass whelm

Just cast glibness and tell them that mass whelm is actually a super good spell that they would love to have instead of planar binding. Sense Motive isn't a class skill for Sorcerers, and they don't have much reason to pump WIS, so even with the largest conditional bonus to their check, it's not too hard to get a relative bonus that's bigger than the entire RNG.

It's definitely a turning point in that there's genuine options that are better than any single Beguiler spell alone, but as awesome as polymorph is, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, solid fog and charm monster are still a hefty pile of value at that level alone that you probably need at least two top picks to contest, nevermind the clean wins at 1-3. But it's a turning point for sure, not a shred of doubt about that.

I think a lot of people are underestimating the difference between 11 and 1. Yes, there are plenty of good spells on the 4th level Sorcerer list. But you get one of them at 8th level. Then you get another one at 9th level. Then the Beguiler gets 5th level spells. I don't know that it's impossible to pull ahead, but you're looking at something like "exactly polymorph + the spell with the best synergy with polymorph", which is just way too specific to be a meaningful argument. I think the turning point happens somewhere in the 10 to 12 range, not the 8 to 10 range because of this. If the Sorcerer got an extra top-level spell known at each level, I think you might be able to make the case, but as is the Beguiler just as too much volume.

Arcane Fusion at level 10 also seems like a strong turning point to me.

As noted, I don't find "this one spell is really good" all that compelling as an argument. Yes, arcane fusion is quite good. If you assemble arcane fusion + attack spell + true strike/casting, you have a very powerful offensive tool, and you've got a good case for beating the Beguiler. But not everyone is going to take arcane fusion. Some people are going to take cloudkill, which will be pretty good, but not clearly better than the entire Beguiler list. Some people are going to take cone of cold, which is basically a joke. Some people are going to take dominate person and then cry because the Beguiler knows ten other spells.

I think 5th level spells is where the Sorcerer starts to turn it around, but that's not because of any particular 5th level spell. It's because 5th (and particularly 6th) level spells are the point where the Sorcerer's advantages start to become clear. The Beguiler is getting less top tier spells. The Beguiler is getting less spells in general at 6th level. The Sorcerer has begun to build up a deep enough bench to take advantage of the non-redundancy Mato and Sleven harp on. Those are the reasons the Sorcerer pulls ahead, not that arcane fusion is a 5th level spell.

The situation with Dread Necromancer v. Sorcerer is similar except that (a) they are entirely weaker at higher levels since they don't have the complementary skills

I mean, they have planar binding, which is potentially enough to carry them through a decent chunk of the high levels, depending on how much they're allowed to abuse it.

The above is just taking into account spells and occasionally feats where noted. At higher levels of optimization (e.g. Drake Helm or Channel Charge), the classes blend together a great deal since every class has the means to produce nearly any desired effect.

It's certainly true that as you approach the limit of optimization, the classes homogenize. But I don't think they do so instantly. Most notably, Prestige Domains are very good for fixed-list casters, but pretty meh for Sorcerers. In general, I think adding spells to lists favors the fixed-list casters, even if both classes get the same tools, because they'll grab whatever the best Sorcerer spells are, reducing the Sorcerer's lead. polymorph might be better than the Dread Necromancer list. But if both people get polymorph, and whatever the four best Sorcerer spells are, it's the fifth best Sorcerer spell versus the whole Dread Necromancer list, which favors the Dread Necromancer substantially.

And beyond that, "if we allow that, they're basically the same" isn't really a good reason to disallow things. In practice, people will buy items and take PrCs. If that ends up making the comparison a wash, then the comparison is a wash. There's no reason to contrive an arbitrary set of constraints on what people are allowed to do just so that there is a winner.

Second best actually, mystic ranger hands down trumps beguiler for the first 10 levels as the best full caster no question.

I don't think that's really true. As noted, you don't get 1st level spells at level 1, so the Beguiler is clearly winning there, particularly if we're talking about best fit for the role of spellcaster. There are certainly levels where it's very powerful, but I think you want at least Sword of the Arcane Order (which requires 6th level, or IIRC 4th level with tricks), and maybe Wild Shape (if you think that works), and then it falls of a cliff at 10th. There's definitely a range where it's one of the better casters, but I'm comfortable putting the Beguiler in the number 1 slot at 1st level.

fixed list casters (except for warmage) are loosing something by PRCing whereas the sorcerer isn't,

Well, the Sorcerer is losing Familiar advancement. And while the fixed-list casters do lose something, it's not really that big of a deal. Losing Advanced Learning (or for the Warmage, Eclectic Learning) hurts a little, but there are plenty of ways to make that up. And beyond Advanced Learning, what is the Beguiler really losing? Skill points? No one is agonizing over the tradeoff between four skill points per level and being a Rainbow Servant. Well, maybe Table Rainbow Servant. Dread Necromancer loses the most, and even there I think the tradeoff is overrated. Yes, your control pool no longer grows, but it's already as big as it ever gets for other characters, and at that point you've probably hit the point of diminishing returns for Skeletons and Zombies. Overall, while I don't disagree that costs are technically higher, I don't think they're high enough to be relevant.

Sleven

2019-05-06, 08:31 PM

I'm still really not sure why you think dealing damage matters overmuch. I generally barely even look at the "damaging" beguiler spells, because direct damage isn't all that great. A lot of the better beguiler effects also don't overlap that much. The ones I tend to list especially tend not to have that quality.

It's not a particularly meaningful party composition limitation. Just about any party is going to have an arbitrary damage source. Classes without a means of dealing damage are relatively rare.

I'll repeat myself one final time: this is a head-to-head class comparison. If you have spell or party composition limitations, you have glaring weaknesses as a class. If another class does not share those same weaknesses, it has an advantage.

Direct damage may not be considered that "great" by the community's misinformed consensus because some guy wrote a wizard guide over a decade ago, but it is a necessary part of nearly any party. A sorcerer can fill the last slot in any party, a beguiler cannot say the same.

See Mato's last post for examples of spell-role overlap and individual spell power advantage (in terms of coverage and magnitude). It barely even scratches the surface of the versatile options sorcerers have available for replacing entire sets of spells the beguiler gets, and even doing things they can't (e.g. create real barriers). Last time I checked, line-of-effect is a pretty big deal when it comes to controlling the battlefield. And the only thing beguilers can impact is line-of-sight. So they can't even adequately fill the battlefield control role.

Charm explicitly limits you away from suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but not for very dangerous ones. Diplomacy can potentially increase friendly to helpful which can mean more direct combat oriented help.

You're conflating both charm and dominate and helpful and fanatic.

Actions like "protect" and "backup" (assuming you pass the diplomacy check) are passive actions, not active. Just as combat is actively harmful (to themselves and others), and attempting to climb a ledge is merely dangerous.

I assumed they would be tied to the same piece of writing. I just don't think you can read the second explosive runes before the first one explodes. It's not like there's a time delay written into the spell.

If they're tied to the same piece of writing, they all go off at the same time. "The same" means just that.

Well, for example, you said that explosive runes is enough to outdo the beguiler at 6th level, I said that the beguiler list, which includes dispel magic, more than beats that spell, Mato said that your beguiler obviously had dispel magic because they had explosive runes, I pointed out that they did not have dispel magic because it was 6th level, and then you argued with me about how explosive runes is fine without dispel magic. So, I pointed out the Mato context, which was a pretty necessary thing. And that is how I figure, to get us back to the present moment.

No I didn't. I said it was an example of a spell from core that was of significant strength when compared to anything else the beguiler has at that level. The other was Shrink Item. In fact, it was specifically to make the point that Polymorph wasn't the only awesomely powerful spell sorcerers had that beguilers didn't., and further my point that the lower level spells support the higher level ones in enough significant ways that a sorcerer comes out on top by level 8 (7 for kobolds, ECL6 for phaerimm, etc.).

I actually did say there was a point. It's just that you then introduced a spell that solves all the problems the Beguiler has, and none of the problems the Sorcerer has, as a reason the Sorcerer was better. You were winning this argument until you decided to start arguing, which I have to say is a great look. dragonblood spell-pact means that instead of it being polymorph any object/greater planar binding/whatever eighth level spell you like best v the Beguiler list at 16th level -- a comparison I think the Sorcerer can be reasonably argued to win, and probably strongly -- it's that one spell versus the best 7 eighth level spells. That's literally unwinnable. You've introduced an ability that allows the Beguiler to be strictly better than you.

Yet again, ignoring the crucial point that this spell is a sorcerer class feature, not a beguiler class feature. Please refer to Mato and my previous posts.

I also introduced ways for the sorcerer to expand their spell list indefinitely. So really, it comes back to the last two sentences I wrote before this one. You continually refuse to address it, so I'll have to take that as a concession because you've made it abundantly clear you don't want to advocate for beguiler. You want to talk about how great non-beguiler spells are.

It's self contained for swapping 3rd level spells within restricted parameters at 14th level at high cost. I'll freely admit that's true. But that's just not especially useful. It's not useless, there are plenty of 3rd level spells that do useful things at that level, and having access to more of them is good. But if that's all you're planning on bringing to the table, you're not beating the Beguiler.

So you're ignoring the other examples I gave where this can be done as soon as the spell is obtained and with spells of any level? Great, once again you prove having a discussion with you that actually progresses in any meaningful or logical way is in fact impossible.

Why do we care about this standard? Specifically, the "your own spell list" and "no other items" parts. Excluding party members is reasonable. But no one demands that we evaluate the power of Artificers with only their infusions, and not scrolls/wands/staffs from other classes. And the "no items" restriction is particularly bizarre given that your first suggestion costs gold. I agree that you can define the restrictions you put on what characters are allowed to do in a way that favors the Sorcerer in this comparison. But you can do that for any pair of classes in any direction. This is just like the people who try to claim "but what if they wrestle naked in an AMF" as a win for the Fighter over the Wizard.

You don't want to go down this rabbit hole because it's what allows a commoner to break the game just as easily as any tier 1 class. The only difference is that sorcerers are Charisma-based, which allows them to break the game sooner and at higher orders of magnitude. I've already pointed out that ACFs put UMD on the sorcerer skill list as well, so they don't even need to burn a feat.

So yes, we are here to compare two classes based on their class features and nothing else, because if we step outside of that anyone is Pun-Pun at level 1 and no class is special.

Yes, that would be the Beguiler. You've all but admitted that it's stronger in every low or mid op situation, as the only comparison you seem willing to do is against a Sorcerer picking exactly the best spells. In high optimization it benefits more from many of the options suggested for the Sorcerer (e.g. dragonblood spell-pact), and has powerful options of its own (e.g. Prestige Domains).

I've already said the beguiler has the advantage until 4th level spells become available to the sorcerer, but that was without considering magic items. If we're considering magic items, sorcerer takes an easy win because it can actually use wands and staves from the most powerful list from level 1 and it can use the ones that aren't on that list (with it's charisma advantage) much earlier.

One could make the same claim about you and Sorcerer racial options.

You mean the one thing no one has refuted me on except you? Meanwhile nearly everyone else in this thread has spoken out against your interpretation of Apprentice.

By the way, if you're actually oblivious to your own faults in discourse, this is a perfect example. You try to make a false equivalency to make a point you can't actually defend without the reader ignoring all prior conversation on the subject and instead taking what you just said at face value. In other words, being duped.

I literally don't understand what you're trying to say here. It doesn't matter if the DM doesn't houserule it to not work because then I'd keep talking about it? Is it supposed to be some burn on me that I would talk about abilities that worked? And again, everything you say about the Beguiler list being bad is a reason that swapping spells is better for them. You're making my argument for me.

Begging the question. There's been one argument presented against it, and I think I've rebutted that fairly well. Present some evidence before drawing conclusions.

I thought Troacctid refuted Apprentice quite elegantly. In fact, the very quote you proffered to rebut her damns your own argument.

Although I don't know why people think Prestige Domains or Rainbow Servant don't work. That's just silly. Per the class descriptions their spell lists are explicitly their spells known.

Conceded. I admit that Dragon spellcasting is sufficently not Sorcerer spellcasting that it is not advanced by things that advance Sorcerer spellcasting. Since we agree that the abilities are distinct, you can stop bringing this up as an advantage of the Sorcerer.

Haha. No. I suppose you're attempting to be comically incorrect here?

But it would be better than the Sorcerer too. And that's the question we're asking, isn't it? "Are fixed list casters better than the Sorcerer?" It seems like if you can make the case that there's a point where a fixed list caster with no list becomes better than the Sorcerer, the fixed list casters that actually know spells are probably way better than the Sorcerer. I've never contested that if you make this about just class features versus just class features, the Sorcerer eventually wins. But I've also never accepted that as a useful or relevant comparison. Characters aren't just a list of class features, they use PrCs, feats, and items that make those class features better. If you have to lock the Beguiler out of those things to win, then you aren't actually winning.

This is exactly what Mato and I were talking about earlier. You have to not play beguiler for 10 levels just to be competitive at the end of the rainbow. And still, despite all your efforts, the sorcerer will still be better at using magic items.

You have precisely one specific scenario that allows beguiler to get anywhere near a sorcerer, but it doesn't even invoke beguiler spellcasting. Instead, it relies on cleric casting. Meanwhile, a sorcerer can still trump your specific non-beguiler spell list PrC by playing a plain old sorcerer but deciding that they'd like to be a hatchling Phaerimm. There, my cool specific thing beats your cool specific thing and still actually uses the base class I'm advocating for.

I think that about does it though. It's game over from here, because Cosi will insist his non-beguiler spells are more relevant to beguilers than a race with sorcerer spellcasting is to sorcerer.

The beguiler has no direct minion creation, he cannot lay traps, he cannot truly damage someone (whelm is just mechanically a terrible save-or-noonecares), he cannot transport his party anywhere, he cannot really give people extra turns or actions, nearly everything he does prompts a save to negate it, he has a ton of issues with mind-affecting & SR, and there are multiple issues tied to his spells.

Here Mato even concisely lays out some beguiler flaws that have been touched on throughout the thread, and still the pro-beguiler posters refuse to consider them valid criticism.

Over the course of the next few paragraphs he breaks things down with regards to spell power and role overlap in a way that if you don't understand it by now, I needn't bother writing about the subject any further.

You should stop trying to triple count the beguiler's spells while telling everyone on the sorcerer's side not to.

One of the highlights of his post.

You gave up on the beguiler. You stopped talking about how limited the beguiler's list is because you're slowly realizing how limited it is so now, backed into a corner and up against a wall, you want to talk about the sorcerer's & cleric's spells the beguiler doesn't get. [...] You are pleading to be allowed to grab magical items to make up for every short coming in beguiler class that gets pointed out to you. You think this is a good thing, it should be allowed, while missing the point that every single time you do this you admit to yet another limitation the beguiler falls short on.

But perhaps this is the most poignant of all, echoing what I've been saying all thread in a much more concise and revealing manner.

Of course, the best part about reiterating this is: the points are more than likely to get ignored or "dismissed" again. Which effectively ends the thread for me as the ultimate concession.

Anthrowhale

2019-05-06, 09:01 PM

But not everyone is going to take arcane fusion.

Optimization level certainly does vary.

There's definitely a range where it's one of the better casters, but I'm comfortable putting the Beguiler in the number 1 slot at 1st level.

The contenders seem to be:
Cleric 1 (daily access to all L1 Cleric spells + armor + 2 domains, 3 or 4 spells/day)
Druid 1 (daily access to all L1 Druid spells + AC, 2 or 3 spells/day)
Wizard 1 (daily access amongst 6-8 S/W spells, 3 or 4 spells/day)
Beguiler 1 (spontaneous access to 14 pre-chosen spells, skills, 4 or 5 spells/day)

Beguiler is really good but I expect the party context to determine which is better amongst these, particularly if they are optimized. For example, an uncanny forethought wizard spontaneously casting from the top 7 complementary S/W spells is pretty good as well.

Cosi

2019-05-06, 09:24 PM

Direct damage may not be considered that "great" by the community's misinformed consensus because some guy wrote a wizard guide over a decade ago

Would that be the guide you cited as a reason that the Beguiler's charm spells are bad, or some other guide?

Yet again, ignoring the crucial point that this spell is a sorcerer class feature, not a beguiler class feature. Please refer to Mato and my previous posts.

And knowing more spells is a Beguiler class feature. Which do you think is more valuable, the seven-to-ten (depending on when you count) extra 5th level spells the Beguiler has to trade, or the 25k GP the Sorcerer saves not buying a Knowstone of dragonblood spell-pact?

So you're ignoring the other examples I gave where this can be done as soon as the spell is obtained and with spells of any level?

No, you've done the thing you always do where you assert that a thing exists, and then assume that everyone should just agree with you on that basis. I can't possibly be expected to engage with arguments you haven't bothered to make in a reasonable way, particularly when you refuse to engage with arguments that have been made, such as the Beguiler's ability to use anything that is not a Beguiler class feature.

I've already pointed out that ACFs put UMD on the sorcerer skill list as well, so they don't even need to burn a feat.

Again, no, you haven't done that. You've asserted that those things exist, but you've provided no citations to that effect. It happens that I believe you in this case, but you need to start making arguments, rather than simply claiming arguments exist and accusing your opponents of either being intransigent when they don't accept your assertions as fact, or dishonest when then finish your points for you. This whole things started with you claiming dragonblood spell-pact without naming it as an advantage for Sorcerers, and then when we looked at what it actually did, it's better for fixed-list casters. Why should I not simply assume that's all your points?

So yes, we are here to compare two classes based on their class features and nothing else, because if we step outside of that anyone is Pun-Pun at level 1 and no class is special.

That's fallacious. There's plenty of space between "no items, class only, final destination" and "Pun-Pun". You don't see me claiming we can't count polymorph because form-changing magic allows you to go full Pun-Pun, or saying that we should ignore planar binding because you can bind an Efreet and wish for as much power as you can describe. It is not impossible to figure out that Knowstones add some value to the Beguiler without using wealth loops to buy Knowstones of every spell (except that apparently "can learn every spell" is a totally acceptable advantage when the Sorcerer claims it).

You mean the one thing no one has refuted me on except you?

Alternatively, the thing that not even Mato was willing to claim as an advantage of Sorcerers. Maybe I missed something, but as far as I can tell, I'm simply the only one who thought this argument was even worth acknowledging. When you post a massive wall of text, not every point is going to get engaged with. And you've conceded that this casting is not an advantage to the Sorcerer, so I'm going to stop engaging with it.

Although I don't know why people think Prestige Domains or Rainbow Servant don't work. That's just silly. Per the class descriptions their spell lists are explicitly their spells known.

Alright, so then the 8th level comparison is a Beguiler with two Prestige Domains (one from Divine Oracle, one from Rainbow Servant) who worships the Soveriegn Host and uses substitute domain to shuffle their domain selection whenever they have 10 minutes of downtime. This solves the Beguiler's damage issue, and provides them with a wealth of additional spells, including minor creation, dimension door, anyspell, and scrying. And eventually limited wish. Sure, the individual spells on offer may still lag the best Sorcerer spells, but it would seem to eliminate the weaknesses of redundancy and lack of coverage. I guess the answer is that we can't possibly count this, because there's no difference between an Eternal Wand of substitute domain and UMD-ing staffs of holy word to instant-kill all your opponents. Or that this is radically higher optimization than picking what's claimed to be the best Sorcerer spell in the entire game.

You have precisely one specific scenario that allows beguiler to get anywhere near a sorcerer, but it doesn't even invoke beguiler spellcasting. Instead, it relies on cleric casting.

It very much relies on Beguiler spellcasting. With Wizard spellcasting or Sorcerer spellcasting as the basis for Rainbow Servant, the capstone is basically trinket text. With Beguiler (or Dread Necromancer, or Warmage) spellcasting as the basis, it's one of the most powerful abilities in the game. The particular characteristics of the fixed-list casters are instrumental to the value of Rainbow Servant in a way far more fundamental than anything about the Sorcerer is instrument to the value of dragonblood spell-pact.

eggynack

2019-05-06, 09:30 PM

I'll repeat myself one final time: this is a head-to-head class comparison. If you have spell or party composition limitations, you have glaring weaknesses as a class. If another class does not share those same weaknesses, it has an advantage.

Direct damage may not be considered that "great" by the community's misinformed consensus because some guy wrote a wizard guide over a decade ago, but it is a necessary part of nearly any party. A sorcerer can fill the last slot in any party, a beguiler cannot say the same.
What a sorcerer can theoretically do is irrelevant. The primary question is how good an instantiated sorcerer is at dealing with challenges, or rather the average such capacity of those sorcerers. A beguiler's lack of access to blasting is only particularly pertinent in this comparison to the extent that you'd choose blasting for the sorcerer and consider that an advantage of that build over the beguiler. A random fighter can take on this role, as can any sort of rogue, or a wizard, or basically anything really. A sorcerer's ability to deal damage is pretty frequently going to be redundant. The consensus that magic damage is generally pretty mediocre isn't misinformed. It is quite well informed.

See Mato's last post for examples of spell-role overlap and individual spell power advantage (in terms of coverage and magnitude).
Wasn't the only example in that post charm and dominate? Two spells that are four full levels apart, rendering the overlap pretty minimal?

It barely even scratches the surface of the versatile options sorcerers have available for replacing entire sets of spells the beguiler gets, and even doing things they can't (e.g. create real barriers). Last time I checked, line-of-effect is a pretty big deal when it comes to controlling the battlefield. And the only thing beguilers can impact is line-of-sight. So they can't even adequately fill the battlefield control role.
This is an odd standard for filling this role. Stopping everyone from moving or seeing is a pretty difficult to bypass lock down. Most good BFC operates along these lines.

You're conflating both charm and dominate and helpful and fanatic.

Actions like "protect" and "backup" (assuming you pass the diplomacy check) are passive actions, not active. Just as combat is actively harmful (to themselves and others), and attempting to climb a ledge is merely dangerous.
If someone is attacking you, and your friend is "protecting" you, then they are essentially involved in the fight. An order to hit someone, meanwhile, is not obviously harmful. An order to be hit is.

If they're tied to the same piece of writing, they all go off at the same time. "The same" means just that.
It says the runes themselves detonate when read. You can't read two separate runes simultaneously.

Here Mato even concisely lays out some beguiler flaws that have been touched on throughout the thread, and still the pro-beguiler posters refuse to consider them valid criticism.
It wasn't all that great as criticism goes. I just decided to leave the whole thing to Cosi, cause it was addressed his way. But, like, minion creation or group transportation generally comes up at 5th level spells for a sorcerer, which is pretty late for the argument being made. The niche of "direct minion creation" also isn't an especially pertinent one compared to "having minions", which beguilers do reasonably, though perhaps not perfectly. Damage is indeed an absence on the beguiler list, though not one felt that hard, and the last is trap setting, which, I don't even think I've ever seen someone talk about that niche ever. It's just such a weird non-object. There're some spells for it scattered about, but I don't think I've ever seen someone be like, "This class would be pretty great if only it could lay some traps."

One of the highlights of his post.
His note on triple counting would be a lot more of a highlight if it were more accurately representative of what's going on here. The discussion of the beguiler list on its own generally centers on the areas of non-overlap. It features a lot of diverse capabilities. Yeah, there's a lot of debuffing and a lot of image spells or whatever, but I usually collect all those under the header, "And they also get a bunch of other backup spells." What's mentioned is the really special spells, like glibness or solid fog.

But perhaps this is the most poignant of all, echoing what I've been saying all thread in a much more concise and revealing manner.
Yeah, it's really poignant how he totally misrepresents a ton of what's going on in this thread. I've made a ludicrous number of posts about the beguiler list, and others have as well. Cosi is more interested in the stuff that can be acquired out of class, and fairly so because it's so often ignored.

Cosi

2019-05-06, 09:47 PM

What a sorcerer can theoretically do is irrelevant. The primary question is how good an instantiated sorcerer is at dealing with challenges, or rather the average such capacity of those sorcerers.

I will say that straight average is too harsh on the Sorcerer. While it's obviously unfairly favoring the Sorcerer to assert that only polymorph Sorcerers exist, even highly unskilled players won't end up with the absolute worst spells. Sleven is right to an extent when he says that we don't need to consider "moroncerers", he just sets the bar for "not a moroncerer" unreasonably high.

But, like, minion creation or group transportation generally comes up at 5th level spells for a sorcerer, which is pretty late for the argument being made.

Also, picking those spells as your first 5th level spell is a really hard sell. teleport is good, and the Beguiler doesn't have something comparable, but it means delaying your first offensively useful 5th level spell until 11th level. Which means either using unbuffed 4th level spells while the Beguiler gets their full suite of 5ths (plus the obvious extra goodies), or investing build resources in e.g. metamagic to get good offensive use out of your 5th level slots. The Sorcerer is not a Wizard, and he can't just take generically good Wizard spells blindly, because good Wizard spells are often good because the Wizard's casting mechanic allows him to cast other spells as well.

The discussion of the beguiler list on its own generally centers on the areas of non-overlap.

Also, overlap between high and low level spells is not quite as devastatingly bad as Mato and Sleven seem to think. Yes, dominate person subsumes some of the value of charm person, and the Sorcerer can get by with only one. But there will be situations where charm person is sufficient, and in those situations the Beguiler will have the advantage of being able to spend their resources more effectively.

Cosi is more interested in the stuff that can be acquired out of class, and fairly so because it's so often ignored.

Also because it's relevant to the kinds of Sorcerers people insist on discussing. If people were willing to consider that some Sorcerers might pick, like, orb of fire as their one 4th level spell at 8th level, I would be happy to focus just on the Beguiler list (or the Dread Necromancer list). But inevitably, the Sorcerer side of things only wants to discuss very high-op Sorcerers, and demands that we not count any Beguiler optimization techniques. Hence why so much of my time is spent focusing on list expansion. As I see it, the Sorcerer side basically concedes everything below high optimization, so there's not really much point discussing low or mid op fixed-list casters.

Grim Reader

2019-05-07, 03:03 AM

Although I don't know why people think Prestige Domains or Rainbow Servant don't work. That's just silly. Per the class descriptions their spell lists are explicitly their spells known.

Its because: Rainbow Servant specifies that the cleric spells do not go on the spell list(s) of the Servant. It does say they can be learned and cast, and that the class feature grants access to them. The pro-Beguiler argument is that "can be learned" means that the Beguiler learns them all immediately. The counter is that since they are not on the Beguiler list, the "knows all spells on their list" does not apply, and you have to use other methods to learn the spells. (Knowstones, extra spell, etc)

Basically, the feature creates a category of spells that is learnable but not on the class list. I think this seems meaningless if your general attitude is that by default you can pick spell off any list unless it is specified that you are restricted to your class list. Because from that perspective, all spells are in that category by default.

Arcane Disciple feat does put spells on a class list. But there is an additional rule in Complete Divine that a spontaneous caster who gains access to a domain must select a spell from the domain instead of another spell when they have the opportunity to chose a new spell known. Fixed list casters have few such opportunities. I have suggested that advanced learning could be counted as such an opportunity as a house rule. So the argument against that is apparently that "advanced learning don't work that way"

Also because it's relevant to the kinds of Sorcerers people insist on discussing. If people were willing to consider that some Sorcerers might pick, like, orb of fire as their one 4th level spell at 8th level, I would be happy to focus just on the Beguiler list (or the Dread Necromancer list). But inevitably, the Sorcerer side of things only wants to discuss very high-op Sorcerers, and demands that we not count any Beguiler optimization techniques. Hence why so much of my time is spent focusing on list expansion. As I see it, the Sorcerer side basically concedes everything below high optimization, so there's not really much point discussing low or mid op fixed-list casters.

Picking the best spells for a Sorcerer is using his class features competently. Thats not the same as optimization. If you need to compare your class to a Sorcerer who makes poor spell picks to be relevant, its not a good look. (It is relevant that a Sorcerer has a much lower floor and the Fixed List casters are much more newbie-friendly though)

MeimuHakurei

2019-05-07, 03:27 AM

I remember a similar discussion about Clerics vs. Favored Souls and I like the build experiment that was posited (and I participated with a fairly standard DMM Persist build) where ten challenges were provided and one had to explain how their character would go about solving them (they got support from a Barbarian and a Dragonfire Adept). Even if optimization level may vary between submitted characters and explained challenges, there might be some reasonable insights to which class does how well.

I haven't yet thought of the whole details yet, but this is what I got so far:

8th level, Standard WBL, 32 Point Buy (feel free to use LA/RHD races)
Multiclassing is discouraged; the point is to see how well the specific classes are doing. Still, you might wanna nab a few PrCs or prereq-fulfilling base classes to supplement your build.
Classes to pick: Sorcerer, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage

Party I think should be a Fighter and a Healer (for providing a more consistent experience, they should be the same ones for each) - provide some frontlining and physical damage as well as sustain while sorely lacking in most forms of utility.

I may or may not be able to provide the party and the challenges some time.

Grim Reader

2019-05-07, 03:39 AM

Aaaand I just realized something. Under my reading a Beguiler could use the Apprentice feat to get use out of Prestige Domains, Arcane Disciple and Rainbow Servant. Apprentice does create the opportunity to chose a spell every time the Beguiler levels. A vanilla Beguiler has no targets for the pick, but with Arcane Disciple or 10 levels of Rainbow Servant, you could exchange a Beguiler spell for one of the relevant spells every time you level. And then recover the exchanged spell next time you level off the Beguilers spell knowledge mechanism.

eggynack

2019-05-07, 03:51 AM

Picking the best spells for a Sorcerer is using his class features competently. Thats not the same as optimization. If you need to compare your class to a Sorcerer who makes poor spell picks to be relevant, its not a good look. (It is relevant that a Sorcerer has a much lower floor and the Fixed List casters are much more newbie-friendly though)
Picking the best spells is exactly optimization. Competency is what optimization is all about. The sorcerer has like fifty billion spells on their list, and they pick a few dozen. Not everyone is going to take the best spell, the second best spell, the third best spell, and so on down to the fortieth. Such selection prowess would be like a character making all the exact right feat selections, the exact right level selections, and then also the exact right item selections. That's roughly the same few dozen correct choices that the perfect sorcerer would have to make, and the sorcerer's choices are probably from a broader list and significantly less bounded.

Using the sorcerer's class features competently means picking competent spells. That could mean polymorph, because polymorph is great, but it could also mean black tentacles, or solid fog, or dimension door. It could also mean orb of fire, which is one of the best blasting spells in the entire game. It's kinda weird that people are calling out the beguiler for not having blasting spells, but if the sorcerer actually picks one then they're making a silly choice. Having the sorcerer make poor picks would indeed not be a good look, but there's a huge distance between that and a perfect spell list.

Florian

2019-05-07, 03:59 AM

Although I don't know why people think Prestige Domains or Rainbow Servant don't work. That's just silly. Per the class descriptions their spell lists are explicitly their spells known.

That's because we follow the logical chain of how exactly specific beats general.
- FL casters have their fixed list, are treated as "knowing" their spells but have no "Spells Know" class feature. Instead of the regular spell-swapping and adding that comes with regular Spells Known classes, FL classes come with an Advanced Learning feature that specifies how and when you can add new stuff.
- Rainbow Servant and Prestide Domain include specific mechanics concerning how you are able to add new spells to your Spells Known, also specifying that they are not yet on your Spell List until added, they are only available for transfer to it.

That makes the resolution chain: Rainbow Servant grants the transfer option, Advanced Learning specifies when and how, then the baseline "knows list" feature kicks in.

Using the sorcerer's class features competently means picking competent spells. That could mean polymorph, because polymorph is great, but it could also mean black tentacles, or solid fog, or dimension door. It could also mean orb of fire, which is one of the best blasting spells in the entire game. It's kinda weird that people are calling out the beguiler for not having blasting spells, but if the sorcerer actually picks one then they're making a silly choice. Having the sorcerer make poor picks would indeed not be a good look, but there's a huge distance between that and a perfect spell list.

I´d say it´s 50-50. We're talking about building a Sorcerer in a vacuum, with no clue what sort of challenges and scenarios that Sorcerer will have to face. So first step is indeed breaking those down into possible main and sub categories and then trying to estimate the frequency and how that should be weighted. If we, say, go for an even mix of combat / social / exploration, then the weighting between powerful and competent spells will get more difficult, especially once we take a look at sub categories like blasting, BFC and stealth. (and let's don't get into having specialist spells at hand as scrolls)

Cosi

2019-05-07, 06:35 AM

Picking the best spells for a Sorcerer is using his class features competently. Thats not the same as optimization.

That's a distinction without a difference. Stuff that increases your character's power level is optimization, that's what the term means. I understand that if you define Sorcerer optimization as "not optimization" and Beguiler optimization as "optimization", the comparison looks very good for the Sorcerer, but that's such an obviously biased comparison that it doesn't merit any attention. And I should note that I'm not saying that we have to weigh Sorcerers that pick fire trap exactly as much as Sorcerers who pick polymorph. Just that you should weigh Sorcerer who make non-optimal picks some non-zero amount, and that however much you do weigh them is an obvious advantage for the Beguiler.

Aaaand I just realized something. Under my reading a Beguiler could use the Apprentice feat to get use out of Prestige Domains, Arcane Disciple and Rainbow Servant. Apprentice does create the opportunity to chose a spell every time the Beguiler levels. A vanilla Beguiler has no targets for the pick, but with Arcane Disciple or 10 levels of Rainbow Servant, you could exchange a Beguiler spell for one of the relevant spells every time you level. And then recover the exchanged spell next time you level off the Beguilers spell knowledge mechanism.

Explain to me how it can work like that. Beguilers know all the spells on their class list. That's how Advanced Learning works. According to you, Apprentice only lets you pick spells on your class list. So where can Prestige Domains, Arcane Disciple, and Rainbow Servant be putting the spells they give you such that the Beguiler doesn't get them for free, but can learn them with Apprentice, and can't learn polymorph with Apprentice? What is this category of spells? How is it that it exists, despite the Beguiler not mentioning it, Apprentice not mentioning it, and Prestige Domains not mentioning it?

liquidformat

2019-05-07, 08:54 AM

I don't think that's really true. As noted, you don't get 1st level spells at level 1, so the Beguiler is clearly winning there, particularly if we're talking about best fit for the role of spellcaster. There are certainly levels where it's very powerful, but I think you want at least Sword of the Arcane Order (which requires 6th level, or IIRC 4th level with tricks), and maybe Wild Shape (if you think that works), and then it falls of a cliff at 10th. There's definitely a range where it's one of the better casters, but I'm comfortable putting the Beguiler in the number 1 slot at 1st level.

I would disagree, mystic ranger has two good saves, full bab, d8, a decent skill list with high number of skill points, and besides level 1 and 2 the same spell progression through level 10 as a sorcerer. Sure the mystic Ranger falls off to probably tier 3 at 11+, however, from level 1-10 Mystic Ranger is at the top of tier 1 questionably tier 0 no other class in the game can compete with that. Sure mystic ranger doesn't have level 1 spells at level 1 but who cares, spells at level one and two aren't particularly powerful or useful and most casters are pretty much just left to using their ranged weapons at these levels.

Grim Reader

2019-05-07, 09:29 AM

That's a distinction without a difference. Stuff that increases your character's power level is optimization, that's what the term means. I understand that if you define Sorcerer optimization as "not optimization" and Beguiler optimization as "optimization", the comparison looks very good for the Sorcerer, but that's such an obviously biased comparison that it doesn't merit any attention. And I should note that I'm not saying that we have to weigh Sorcerers that pick fire trap exactly as much as Sorcerers who pick polymorph. Just that you should weigh Sorcerer who make non-optimal picks some non-zero amount, and that however much you do weigh them is an obvious advantage for the Beguiler.

Ahem:

Consider that a Sorcerer can swap out a spell known at 4th level and every two levels after that, with no text stating the new spell has to be from the Sorcerer list.
Well, that's a part of the class's "Spells" ability, so it seems reasonable to say that it maintains the same restrictions stated earlier in the ability. Things like Apprentice and dragonblood spell-pact are not, so they would have to inherent a general restriction, and the only one cited is pretty clearly doesn't apply. Even if you can go off list, it's not particularly useful. The swapped spell must be two levels bellow max, and you were already freely picking your spells known from the best spell list in the game. The only case where it's particularly powerful is Artificer-style dumpster diving for underleveled spells on weird lists. And at -2 levels, I'm not even sure you can get anything important early.

I don't think you should be throwing around terms like "obviously biased comparison" after that.

As for optimization, I think we use the word a bit differently in this subculture. Technically, it is optimization when a fighter chooses the Greatsword over a shield and a dagger, or when a caster prioritizes his casting stat, or when a Rogue puts ranks in UMD. But when we use the word "optimization" here, I don't think we use the technical meaning. We generally mean stuff above and beyond making competent use of your base class features.

And a Sorcerer who makes the best spell picks is only doing his best with the class features WoTC gave him. I think if you have to arbitrarily weigh him down with the assumption that he will not be making the best choices, you can make all sorts of classes better. It is quite clear that the Sorcerer has a much lower floor than the Beguiler, and that a poor player will do much better with a Beguiler than a Sorcerer. But that would be a discussion of the classes floor.

Explain to me how it can work like that. Beguilers know all the spells on their class list. That's how Advanced Learning works. According to you, Apprentice only lets you pick spells on your class list. So where can Prestige Domains, Arcane Disciple, and Rainbow Servant be putting the spells they give you such that the Beguiler doesn't get them for free, but can learn them with Apprentice, and can't learn polymorph with Apprentice? What is this category of spells? How is it that it exists, despite the Beguiler not mentioning it, Apprentice not mentioning it, and Prestige Domains not mentioning it?

The issue here, I think, is that you believe than any mechanic that lets you pick a new spell lets you pick any spell from any list unless it explicitly restricts you to your class list. Whereas I believe that a mechanic that lets you pick a new spell must explicitly allow you to go off-list to let you pick spells that are not on your list.

Hence, you believe that the Apprentice feat lets you exchange a spell for another spell off any list, because the feat does not explicitly restrict you to your spell list. And I believe you are restricted to your spell list, because it does not have any text saying you may go offlist. Same with Dragonblood Spell-pact.

When a fixed-list caster takes Arcane Disciple, it puts the spells on his list. Normally he would be able to cast them, but there is an extra restriction on spontaneous casters gaining spells off domains: They must have the opportunity to chose a spell known and choose that spell instead of a normal one. The general Beguiler spell mechanism does not override the specific extra restrictions that come with the domain spells. The Beguiler now has spells on his spell list that are not known/castable. This is not a unique situation, many classes do not know every spell on their list, and wizards can scribe spells into their spellbook that they cannot cast.

On Rainbow Servant, when gaining the 10th level of the class, all cleric spells become available to learn, but are specifically not put on your class list. Because they are not put on your class list, the Beguiler knowing every spell on his list does not help. They must be learned by other methods. The character now has spells that are on his list and known, and spells that are not on his list or known but can be learned by the appropriate method.

And this is where we differ: To me, the 10th level feature of RS means that Cleric spells now has exception from the requirement that added spells must be picked from your class list. To you, that is how all offlist spells have always worked, I think?

__________________________________________________ ______

Incidentally, I am not convinced that Arcane Disciple and Prestige Domains work identically, RAW. The Prestige Domain rules are more general and Arcane Disciple more specific. Arcane Disciple explicitly puts the spells on your class list, but does not give any exception from the restrictions on gaining domain spells for spontaneous casters. It also retains the "only once per day" restriction while the general rule specifically calls out that spontaneous casters are not limited in that way. It would not be unusual for a feat and a class feature to not work exactly the same. Is there any text even stating that Prestige Domain spells get put on your class list?

Mordaedil

2019-05-07, 10:05 AM

I would disagree, mystic ranger has two good saves, full bab, d8, a decent skill list with high number of skill points, and besides level 1 and 2 the same spell progression through level 10 as a sorcerer. Sure the mystic Ranger falls off to probably tier 3 at 11+, however, from level 1-10 Mystic Ranger is at the top of tier 1 questionably tier 0 no other class in the game can compete with that. Sure mystic ranger doesn't have level 1 spells at level 1 but who cares, spells at level one and two aren't particularly powerful or useful and most casters are pretty much just left to using their ranged weapons at these levels.

It's not that great, really.

For combat, it is pretty much destroyed by any ToB class, it is better than the normal ranger, but the normal ranger isn't incredible by any means. Half caster level doesn't do it any favors even if it gets spells fast, and the spells it does have are not the greatest unless you start to pull from other sources. His spells don't do anything to solve most encounters except stealth encounters. And his skills don't necessarily mean he can overcome most scenarios.

Also, you are kinda using tiers wrong. We don't say "class A is tier X for these levels" because that is kind of a useless metric. You just kinda fall into the trap of "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" mentality. This is a class that peaks early and then flat-lines.

liquidformat

2019-05-07, 12:17 PM

It's not that great, really.

For combat, it is pretty much destroyed by any ToB class, it is better than the normal ranger, but the normal ranger isn't incredible by any means. Half caster level doesn't do it any favors even if it gets spells fast, and the spells it does have are not the greatest unless you start to pull from other sources. His spells don't do anything to solve most encounters except stealth encounters. And his skills don't necessarily mean he can overcome most scenarios.

Also, you are kinda using tiers wrong. We don't say "class A is tier X for these levels" because that is kind of a useless metric. You just kinda fall into the trap of "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" mentality. This is a class that peaks early and then flat-lines.

It is a bit ridiculous to go with core only spell list as the base of an argument in a talk about optimization, especially when comparing to classes outside of core. I have looked into the spells choices for rangers in the past and there are something like 200 ranger spells throughout the sources. Of those around half are out of combat utility spells that don't have direct in combat power, approximately a quarter are buffs for yourself and animal companion, ~15 bfc, 5-10 debuffs, ~3 save or loose, ~5 melee weapon related, and 15 ranged weapon related. There is quite a bit there at every level for buffing, bfc, and debuffing.

While I understand that I am 'using tiers wrong' but power level through out level 1-20 goes into the evaluation of how a class should be evaluated and my point is from 1-10 mystic ranger is very powerful and the original comparison point we were talking about was in fact levels 1-10 for the beguiler. So regardless of how much the mystic ranger flat lines after level 10 doesn't change its power from 1-10.

Karl Aegis

2019-05-07, 12:47 PM

Is there any text even stating that Prestige Domain spells get put on your class list?

No, there isn't. There is no overlap of mechanics between Advanced Learning and Prestige Domains.

Cosi

2019-05-07, 06:03 PM

I would disagree, mystic ranger has two good saves, full bab, d8

Those advantages are not that big at 1st level. d8 v d6 isn't enough to be surviving more hits (though the Ranger may invest more in CON), full BAB is a +1 bonus you'll barely notice, and Will is a more important save than Fort or Ref, though two good saves is better than one.

a decent skill list with high number of skill points

Their skill list is substantially worse than the Beguiler's, and they lack Trapfinding.

and besides level 1 and 2

Well the comparison was at level one.

the same spell progression through level 10

By level, sure, but far less spells per day. The Mystic Ranger gets 3 2nd level spells per day at 8th level. The Sorcerer gets that many at 4th level. Obviously, the Mystic Ranger has better spell knowledge, but volume counts for something too.

I don't think you should be throwing around terms like "obviously biased comparison" after that.

How is this supposed to be a gotcha? Saying "a restriction defined in the same ability is more likely to apply than one defined in a different ability" doesn't strike me as any kind of special pleading, and I acknowledge and address the impact if it does work. If it offends you, I'm perfectly happy to square the circle by saying that it does work, and pointing out that it's basically irrelevant unless you're doing something like picking up Demonologist planar binding as a 4th level trade-in (and then, presumably, claiming that doesn't count as character optimization).

As for optimization, I think we use the word a bit differently in this subculture.

I think you use this word differently from the rest of the subculture.

We generally mean stuff above and beyond making competent use of your base class features.

Let's assume we do mean that. Why should we mean that? Consider the following alternative argument about what should be considered optimization:

"This is a comparison between two classes. While items or PrCs might provide more advantage to one class than the other, they're not optimization for that class. So when a Beguiler takes Rainbow Servant, that's not really relevant to the question of how optimized he is as a Beguiler, because taking Rainbow Servant isn't a unique property of the Beguiler. So if your Sorcerer needs to take good spells to compete with a Beguiler that hasn't even optimized their Advanced Learning, that's a pretty bad sign for the class."

I think you would say, and quite reasonably, that the comparison is unfair. But why is that comparison fundamentally more unfair than the one you want to do? Why should the choices that heavily impact the Beguiler's power (feats, items, PrCs) count as optimization, but the choices that heavily impact the Sorcerer's power (spell selection) not? I understand what your opinion is, I'm asking you why you think that opinion is defensible.

The issue here, I think, is that you believe than any mechanic that lets you pick a new spell lets you pick any spell from any list unless it explicitly restricts you to your class list. Whereas I believe that a mechanic that lets you pick a new spell must explicitly allow you to go off-list to let you pick spells that are not on your list.

Okay, sure. Why do you believe that? This isn't like picking a favorite flavor of ice cream where me liking strawberry and you liking chocolate is irreconcilable because it's a subjective question. This is a question about the properties of a system. If you think the system has a property, you should be able to explain where that property is defined. If you think "a spell" means "a spell from your list", you should be able to explain why you think that. And you should be able to defend the implications of applying whatever interpretation leads you to think that in other places.

If, for example, you accept Troacctid's citation, you'd have to explain why that general rule overrides Apprentice's specific rules with respect to the set of valid spells, but not with respect to being able to be used at all. Or if you have some other reason you should present that so that people can disagree with you. I've done that. My position is that effects like this are based on sets. Getting the Good Domain as a Prestige Domain adds the set of spells in the Good Domain to your spell list. Apprentice defines the set of spells you can pick from as "all spells". Do you contest that? Do you think there's a rule that overrides it?

The anti-Apprentice side has thus far presented very little in terms of argument or evidence for their position, and mostly seems to think that the rules operate by polling. And I think you're on pretty thin ground doing that, then turning around and claiming that it's unfair to weigh the Sorcerers who take sub-optimal spells. If we're appealing to the populous on this, it only makes sense to appeal to them on polymorph v ice storm, and I think that question has far larger impact on the debate than Apprentice does.

When a fixed-list caster takes Arcane Disciple, it puts the spells on his list. Normally he would be able to cast them, but there is an extra restriction on spontaneous casters gaining spells off domains:

No, there isn't. There's a described mechanism for spontaneous casters in general getting access to domain spells, but it is overridden by the specific rules for fixed-list casters getting access to spells.

Also, you are kinda using tiers wrong. We don't say "class A is tier X for these levels" because that is kind of a useless metric. You just kinda fall into the trap of "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" mentality. This is a class that peaks early and then flat-lines.

That's a flaw of the tier system, not a flaw of his argument. Mystic Ranger is genuinely very good for a range of levels between 6ish and 10th. Not as good as the Wizard still, because full BAB isn't better than being half a level of casting ahead, but definitely on par with (and possibly slightly ahead of) the Sorcerer, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer. It's probably behind before getting Wizard spells (and definitely at 1st), but that's not too bad, because the power gap at low levels is small.