Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

[RoboEmperor]

For those of you who don't know, this feat is the psicrystal's version of improved familiar. Basically instead of a psicrystal you get an elemental steward (Complete Psionics p.130) and the elemental steward gives you all the benefits your psicrystal gives.

So why is this feat AWESOME? Because of GEODITES.
1. This feat is obtainable at level 1.
2. Geodites have DR5/- AC17 making them absolutely phenomenal tanks at low levels.
3. Geodites have BURROW SPEED that can BURROW THROUGH STONE. This is why Elemental Envoy is fantastic! It's basically an at-will non-combat disintegrate. You can destroy walls, bypass vast portions of a dungeon (like a trap or a gate that cannot be opened unless you solve a puzzle) or create choke points (by forcing enemies to fight in these small-sized tunnels and which forces them to squeeze) and force the enemies to fight on your terms rather than theirs. You can create a rest area in the dungeon and cut off all entrances by causing a cave-in that can be re-burrowed through.

The reason I'm posting this is because the guides I found online all say this feat is terrible and it's not true. Geodite's combat capability may becomes nonexistant after like level 4 or 5 but the burrow speed should stay relevant for a really, really long time and at level 1 they're a contender for most powerful minion.

During my play test at level 1 the Geodite solo'd entire encounters due to his DR5/- and at later levels I used the burrow speed to attack and retreat like guerillas and when the enemies gave chase into the tunnels the Geodite would block their path with a Tower Shield while I killed everything with matter agitation. For stronger encounters I got creative and spent some time setting up traps in the tunnels that would completely block passage when triggered to secure a retreat. That way I can matter agitation a creature, retreat, and then just sit there concentration for a minute or two to kill the guy who can't stop his death because a giant rock is blocking his path to me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That one EE is good at level 1.

Unfortunately, it doesn't scale, so it's gonna be dead by level 3, and I don't think there's any way to actually replace a dead one.

So if you absolutely need to survive solo at level 1, it's okay, but you're basically burning a feat permanently for a very temporary benefit. Using that feat for a psicrystal is vastly better, since they actually gain some seriously nice abilities (though no tanky ones at level 1), and if you need a tank, you're massively better off obtaining an animal companion via Wild Cohort. Those you can replace.

[RoboEmperor]

That one EE is good at level 1.

Unfortunately, it doesn't scale, so it's gonna be dead by level 3, and I don't think there's any way to actually replace a dead one.

So if you absolutely need to survive solo at level 1, it's okay, but you're basically burning a feat permanently for a very temporary benefit. Using that feat for a psicrystal is vastly better, since they actually gain some seriously nice abilities (though no tanky ones at level 1), and if you need a tank, you're massively better off obtaining an animal companion via Wild Cohort. Those you can replace.

Psionic Handbook's rules for replacing Psicrystals is the default. If you read the description of Elemental Envoy it says "When you are able to acquire a new psicrystal" and "until dismissed or destroyed." which is identical to familiars, which is what the rules in Psionic Handbooks says (except wait time is 6 months not a year and a day).

My claim is that the Burrow Speed stays relevant past level 3. Don't know until when but it's gonna definitely be until mid levels. And you can always retrain or psychic reformation it out once you do hit mid levels.

[Crichton]

you're basically burning a feat permanently

Well, I mean, when you're playing a psion, no feat is ever burnt permanently (once you reach level 7, anyway)


Using that feat for a psicrystal is vastly better,

You have to already have Psicrystal Affinity to take Elemental Envoy, so it's actually 2 feats (unless you're an Erudite and get PA for free)

[Segev]

Do they gain HD the way psicrystals do? If so, while the feats and skills may not be any "better" than the psicrystal's own, they might be used to improve on the already-stronger chassis.

Do they have hands? Can you give them weapons? Other than the semi-obvious share pain/vigor combo, are there any psicrystal tricks that work better with a tougher chassis?

Psicrystals don't gain size with HD; do Geodites?

The image of a psicrystal with Claws of the Beast is more comical than threatening; are Geodites better able to use them?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionic Handbook's rules for replacing Psicrystals is the default. If you read the description of Elemental Envoy it says "When you are able to acquire a new psicrystal" and "until dismissed or destroyed." which is identical to familiars, which is what the rules in Psionic Handbooks says (except wait time is 6 months not a year and a day).

My claim is that the Burrow Speed stays relevant past level 3. Don't know until when but it's gonna definitely be until mid levels. And you can always retrain or psychic reformation it out once you do hit mid levels.According to WotC, if your psicrystal dies, "You get another one," which is less than helpful. And since 3.5 psicrystals are gotten from a feat and not a class feature, you should be able to get another one right away, instead of waiting until after most campaigns end in order to replace it.

If nothing else, using psychic reformation to replace the feat should allow you to get another one right away.

Still, elemental envoys don't actually gain any hp or save bonuses as they gain in levels. Sure, they gain some other abilities that encourage them to get into melee faster, but that just means they're more likely to die nigh immediately as collateral damage.

And psicrystals are still far tougher and vastly more versatile than they are. Now, if the feat allowed a psicrystal to turn into elemental steward forms...

[Segev]

Still, elemental envoys don't actually gain any hp or save bonuses as they gain in levels. Sure, they gain some other abilities that encourage them to get into melee faster, but that just means they're more likely to die nigh immediately as collateral damage.

They don't? I'm not saying I don't believe you, just that I don't know what rules say this. Can you elaborate, please?

[Crichton]

They don't gain HD at all, from what I'm reading in CPsi. They gain a Nat Armor bonus, a Cha bonus, and an ML bonus, and that's about it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

They don't gain HD at all, from what I'm reading in CPsi. They gain a Nat Armor bonus, a Cha bonus, and an ML bonus, and that's about it.They also don't have the part of the psicrystal's entry where it states that the psicrystal's hp equal half its master's. Same goes for their saving throws.

I can't really quote something that isn't there. The best I could do is quote all the text in regards to the feat to show there's nothing, or you could read it yourself on CPsi p53. No scaling HD, no hp, no saves.

[RoboEmperor]

You guys are missing the point! Burrow Speed! How can the ability to destroy dungeon walls at-will not be worth a feat? Screw combat capability! ( though vigor + share pain still works). BURROW SPEED! WALL DESTRUCTION! TUNNEL BYPASS DUNGEON PUZZLES!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You guys are missing the point! Burrow Speed! How can the ability to destroy dungeon walls at-will not be worth a feat? Screw combat capability! ( though vigor + share pain still works). BURROW SPEED! WALL DESTRUCTION! TUNNEL BYPASS DUNGEON PUZZLES!Or you could just take time hop as a power known and not permanently waste a feat.

[RoboEmperor]

Or you could just take time hop as a power known and not permanently waste a feat.

Time Hop is 3rd level so earliest you get is 5th level, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on walls as it is too big, and again, Retraining or Psychic Reformation. I don't think you are fully grasping the utility of Disintegrate since that is what this burrow speed is (doesn't work on wood though).

[Crichton]

Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.


I'm not seeing an exception to this in the Geodite entry in CPsi pg131. Did I miss something?

[RoboEmperor]

I'm not seeing an exception to this in the Geodite entry in CPsi pg131. Did I miss something?

Yes you did


Geodites inhabit the Elemental Plane of Earth, where they enjoy slowly burrowing through all the mineral varieties of stone with shaped sonic bursts. Geodites have an inborn
talent for spatial mapping, and it is said they can never become lost while they stand on stone.
...
Geodites dwell together in small communities. They get along well with most other earth elemental creatures. They enjoy creating complex dwellings of spiraling tunnels with long galleries, great hollows, and small, doorless nodes in the earth.

By default creatures don't leave a usable tunnel. It needs to be explicitly said. Look at Badger and Dire Badger.

In this case we do have a description that says they burrow through stone and they create tunnels.

[The Kool]

Even if it does, as a DM I would just adapt. Monsters hear rumors of wandering adventurers who pup up out of the stone from these tiny tunnels, start to keep things like boiling oil for fort defense... Have fun squeezing through a tunnel and having that poured in with you.

[Crichton]

Yes you did



By default creatures don't leave a usable tunnel. It needs to be explicitly said. Look at Badger and Dire Badger.

In this case we do have a description that says they burrow through stone and they create tunnels.

I did read that, but dismissed it as just being part of the fluff. It's in the 'Ecology' heading, which judging from the other Ecology entries in CPsi seems like it usually just describes where and how a given creature lives in the wild, and it's typical size/weight. Is it really rules text describing a creature's ingame mechanical abilities?

[RoboEmperor]

Even if it does, as a DM I would just adapt. Monsters hear rumors of wandering adventurers who pup up out of the stone from these tiny tunnels, start to keep things like boiling oil for fort defense... Have fun squeezing through a tunnel and having that poured in with you.

True but still doesn't stop the PCs from breaking down every wall they come across.


I did read that, but dismissed it as just being part of the fluff. It's in the 'Ecology' heading, which judging from the other Ecology entries in CPsi seems like it usually just describes where and how a given creature lives in the wild, and it's typical size/weight. Is it really rules text describing a creature's ingame mechanical abilities?

The question is, can Geodites make tunnels? y/n. If y then no reason they can't make tunnels in-game. The important thing to note is that they create spiraling tunnels. I guess you can make a case that making tunnels might take longer than just burrowing through but not only is this difference trivial, but also highly unlikely since we're talking about stone here and not loose dirt.

[Segev]

They also don't have the part of the psicrystal's entry where it states that the psicrystal's hp equal half its master's. Same goes for their saving throws.

I can't really quote something that isn't there. The best I could do is quote all the text in regards to the feat to show there's nothing, or you could read it yourself on CPsi p53. No scaling HD, no hp, no saves.

So the feat changes the advancement rules from what is printed for psicrystals, then? There's clear lack of inheritance of the psicrystal HD advancement?

Again, not arguing, just trying to answer your question about what you can tell me to clarify. I'm AFB right now and can't get access to C.Psi until tonight.

[The Kool]

Searching the SRD, I find the following entries of burrowing monsters that leave usable tunnels (there might be more, it was a relatively quick search):

A burrowing ankheg usually does not make a usable tunnel, but can construct a tunnel; it burrows at half speed when it does so.

A frost worn cannot burrow through stone, but can manage ice and frozen earth. When moving through such hard materials it leaves behind a usable tunnel about 5 feet in diameter.

A dire badger usually leaves behind a usable tunnel 5 feet in diameter when burrowing unless the material it’s moving through is very loose.

Geodites dwell together in small communities. They get along well with most other earth elemental creatures. They enjoy creating complex dwellings of spiraling tunnels with long galleries, great hollows, and small, doorless nodes in the earth.
As you can see, each case specifically refers to usable tunnels created when burrowing. Except the Geodite, which merely make reference to artistic tendencies in creating tunnels. It mentions nothing about tunnels in relation to it's ability to burrow. In fact, it specifically mentions doorless nodes... This directly implies that the Geodite can, and usually does, pass through stone without leaving a tunnel. If they didn't, they couldn't leave such a room 'doorless'.

[Crichton]

So the feat changes the advancement rules from what is printed for psicrystals, then? There's clear lack of inheritance of the psicrystal HD advancement?

Again, not arguing, just trying to answer your question about what you can tell me to clarify. I'm AFB right now and can't get access to C.Psi until tonight.

Yes, there's clear lack of inheritance. It gains no HP, and no HD. Aside from Nat Armor, Cha, and ML adjustments, and some listed abilities similar to those found in the psicrystal's advancement chart (share power, deliver touch powers, etc), it doesn't advance in anything. It's just stuck at the geodite's stablock for stats/abilities. Here's the relevant section:




The special abilities of an elemental envoy advance in a way similar to that of a psicrystal. As you increase in level, your elemental envoy gains a bonus to its natural armor, its Charisma score (which affects the save DCs of its psi-like abilities), and the manifester level for its psi-like abilities. Special abilities on the table refer to the psicrystal special abilities of the same name (EPH 22).

[RoboEmperor]

Searching the SRD, I find the following entries of burrowing monsters that leave usable tunnels (there might be more, it was a relatively quick search):




As you can see, each case specifically refers to usable tunnels created when burrowing. Except the Geodite, which merely make reference to artistic tendencies in creating tunnels. It mentions nothing about tunnels in relation to it's ability to burrow. In fact, it specifically mentions doorless nodes... This directly implies that the Geodite can, and usually does, pass through stone without leaving a tunnel. If they didn't, they couldn't leave such a room 'doorless'.

Like I said the important thing to note here is whether they can destroy stone walls or not. Ability to burrow through stone via shaped sonic Blasts and ability to create tunnels definitely say yes. The most the DM can do is say Geodites can't make usable tunnels in combat. But this is highly sketchy because we're talking about stone not dirt and their burrow method is shaped sonic blasts aka EXPLOSIONS. But again this is a trivial difference because I'm not saying the Geodite's burrow is for combat purposes. I repeat it's for out of combat utility like breaking down walls and tunneling under magically enchanted trapped giant metal gates.

[Blue Jay]

They also don't have the part of the psicrystal's entry where it states that the psicrystal's hp equal half its master's. Same goes for their saving throws.

I can't really quote something that isn't there. The best I could do is quote all the text in regards to the feat to show there's nothing, or you could read it yourself on CPsi p53. No scaling HD, no hp, no saves.

I think the intention was for them to work just like a psicrystal, but with the differences shown in the advancement table; and that's probably how I would house-rule it. But by RAW, it's just awful.

{EDIT: Ninja'd}

[The Kool]

Well, reading the entry, these "shaped sonic bursts" are never actually stated to leave behind tunnels or destroy anything, and to put an even finer point on it, nowhere does the stat block or ability list mention anything about destroying stone, creating tunnels, or leaving behind tunnels. All we get is one reference to burrowing by sonic blasts (which doesn't specify it leaves a tunnel, or even destroys the stone), and the ecology section describing the homes they like to make. Dwarves like to live in and create giant halls of stone too... do they have some innate explosive psionic ability not listed in the PHB?

EDIT: I mean, if we refer only to the ability to destroy stone, even Human commoners can do that...

[Segev]

At the very least, it seems like there's leeway for a DM to rule either way on tunnel-creation via burrowing.


If it doesn't advance HD, the psicrystal rapidly becomes a stronger monster, I think.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, reading the entry, these "shaped sonic bursts" are never actually stated to leave behind tunnels or destroy anything, and to put an even finer point on it, nowhere does the stat block or ability list mention anything about destroying stone, creating tunnels, or leaving behind tunnels. All we get is one reference to burrowing by sonic blasts (which doesn't specify it leaves a tunnel, or even destroys the stone), and the ecology section describing the homes they like to make. Dwarves like to live in and create giant halls of stone too... do they have some innate explosive psionic ability not listed in the PHB?

EDIT: I mean, if we refer only to the ability to destroy stone, even Human commoners can do that...

This isn't earth glide so if the Geodite burrows through a stone wall it's gonna decimate it. Xorns for example have a Burrow Speed but it's explicitly mentioned to not leave a tunnel because it is an earth glide. Frost Worms on the other hand do leave a tunnel because they don't have an Earth Glide.

So if you're saying a Geodite burrowing through stone with sonic explosions doesn't leave a tunnel, then this non-tunnel is gonna be made up of broken rock bits that can easily be shoveled out. Again, being able to create tunnels in-combat is not a factor. Who cares if a 50ft tunnel takes 10minutes to dig out?


At the very least, it seems like there's leeway for a DM to rule either way on tunnel-creation via burrowing.


If it doesn't advance HD, the psicrystal rapidly becomes a stronger monster, I think.

At which point you retrain out when you want the psicrystal's combat capability or you no longer need burrow speed.

[The Kool]

So if you're saying a Geodite burrowing through stone with sonic explosions doesn't leave a tunnel, then this non-tunnel is gonna be made up of broken rock bits that can easily be shoveled out. Again, being able to create tunnels in-combat is not a factor. Who cares if a 50ft tunnel takes 10minutes to dig out?

Then why bother spending a feat? Just grab some shovels and pickaxes.

No, seriously. Try this with your DM. If you can spend 10 minutes on something, you can probably spend an hour, or arrange circumstances so that you have many hours, or even days to work. Stone will take a while, but mundane equipment will go right through it.

[Florian]

Like I said the important thing to note here is whether they can destroy stone walls or not.

A burrow speed doesn't come attached with the explicit ability to destroy or even significantly damage anything.

[RoboEmperor]

A burrow speed doesn't come attached with the explicit ability to destroy or even significantly damage anything.

Which is why you read the creature description for elaboration. Burrow speed doesn't come attached with the explicit ability to burrow through stone.


Then why bother spending a feat? Just grab some shovels and pickaxes.

No, seriously. Try this with your DM. If you can spend 10 minutes on something, you can probably spend an hour, or arrange circumstances so that you have many hours, or even days to work. Stone will take a while, but mundane equipment will go right through it.

One of my DM's family members runs a small mining operation creating asphalt and he didn't doubt for a second that shaped explosions did leave a tunnel.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Then why bother spending a feat? Just grab some shovels and pickaxes.Unfortunately, pickaxes deal piercing damage. You cannot sunder objects using piercing damage, so you cannot use pickaxes to break stone, via RAW.

Yes, it's dumb. Yes, it's the rules.

[Segev]

Unfortunately, pickaxes deal piercing damage. You cannot sunder objects using piercing damage, so you cannot use pickaxes to break stone, via RAW.

Yes, it's dumb. Yes, it's the rules.

Clearly, pickaxes have a special property that lets them be used as tools for digging.

[RoboEmperor]

Clearly, pickaxes have a special property that lets them be used as tools for digging.

What is this property? Breaking down stone walls with Greatswords is impractically slow so it's gotta ignore a good deal of hardness. How much hardness ignore is enough?



I'll just say you guys convinced me that a Geodite burrowing through minerals does not leave a tunnel, but again, doesn't matter.

[Segev]

What is this property? Breaking down stone walls with Greatswords is impractically slow so it's gotta ignore a good deal of hardness. How much hardness ignore is enough?



I'll just say you guys convinced me that a Geodite burrowing through minerals does not leave a tunnel, but again, doesn't matter.

I'd actually suggest it's a proper tool for "Craft:Tunnel" or the like. It's not meant as a combat thing, so modeling it with hp is probably the wrong way to go compared to modeling it with a skill check.

[The Kool]

Unfortunately, pickaxes deal piercing damage. You cannot sunder objects using piercing damage, so you cannot use pickaxes to break stone, via RAW.

Yes, it's dumb. Yes, it's the rules.

The sunder rules refer only to sundering carried or worn object, including but not limited to weapons and shields, excluding armor. Call it dumb if you like, I call it incomplete. On the other hand, if we look at the Breaking and Entering information from the DMG, we find that stone has a hardness of 8 and 15 HP per inch of thickness, and if we look at the Dungeon Terrain section we find this is measured in 10ft square surface areas (the breaking and entering section even says: "Very large objects have separate hit point totals for different sections."). This stands to reason that if we get through the hardness, for every 15 damage we deal we dig one inch into the stone across up to 10 square feet of area. This may seem awkward at first, but to go 5ft we need to deal 900 damage which actually isn't all that unreasonable. Finally, as the coup-de-grace, the section on vulnerabilities states "Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness." Whether this applies to pickaxes vs stone is up to the DM, but the groundwork is there.

EDIT: To preempt this particular poking: "Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon." This is not an absolute, and I would argue whole-heartedly that pickaxes vs stone is an obvious exception.

[RoboEmperor]

According to WotC, if your psicrystal dies, "You get another one," which is less than helpful. And since 3.5 psicrystals are gotten from a feat and not a class feature, you should be able to get another one right away, instead of waiting until after most campaigns end in order to replace it.

I'd just like to point out Obtain Familiar is a feat so this argument is invalid. You use Psionic Handbook's rules for Psicrystal replacement by default since all 3.0 material is included in 3.5 by default.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd just like to point out Obtain Familiar is a feat so this argument is invalid. You use Psionic Handbook's rules for Psicrystal replacement by default since all 3.0 material is included in 3.5 by default.Familiars have rules for if they die in 3.5, and Obtain Familiar defaults to that.

Psicrystals do not. Psionics got a complete overhaul in 3.5. It's a wholly different system, and so the psicrystals from 3.0 are not the same as the ones from 3.5.

[Blue Jay]

If it helps, I heard that there was an "official" errata document for Complete Psionic that was written up but never actually published, and I managed to track it down. I obviously can't really verify its authenticity, but it does actually have a line of errata for the Elemental Envoy feat:


p. 53, 2nd paragraph below pic, Special:
Fix: add last sentence: “However, if your steward dies you suffer no additional consequences,
and a new one automatically replaces the previous one twelve hours later.”

I personally never enforce the wait period for replacing a companion creature, mainly because I'm terrible with calendars and schedules, but also because doing so wouldn't bring anybody any pleasure. I usually just ask them to "pay the price" in some token way: going without your Special Mount for a few encounters, and roleplaying your melancholy, is usually enough in my book.

I also don't ever force characters to eat wastage in their build: I waive feat taxes, or buff weak feats, or just look for ways to generate opportunities for them to use their build choices; and I usually allow free retraining. So, I would definitely allow an Elemental Envoy to advance hit points and stats like a familiar would.

[Menzath]

I'd actually suggest it's a proper tool for "Craft:Tunnel" or the like. It's not meant as a combat thing, so modeling it with hp is probably the wrong way to go compared to modeling it with a skill check.

According to pg.98 of races of the dragon, proffesion:mining is the correct answer to using a pickaxe or other mining tools.

[RoboEmperor]

Familiars have rules for if they die in 3.5, and Obtain Familiar defaults to that.

Psicrystals do not. Psionics got a complete overhaul in 3.5. It's a wholly different system, and so the psicrystals from 3.0 are not the same as the ones from 3.5.

lets list the arguments
Familiar Rules
Original Psionics Handbook used Psicrystals as familiars
All 3.0 is by default included in 3.5
Detonate Psionics in Hyperconsciousness also says 6 months down time and some writers for Hyperconsciousness were writers for XPH

You get another in 24 hours
Druids can replace animal companions in 24 hours, so why not psicrystals?
The unreleased comp psi errata says it takes 12 hours to replace an Elemental Envoy
Apparently some writers for Pathfinder's Psionics were also writers for XPH and they say psicrystals reform after 24 hours
In XPH Psicrystals are 100% made by you. You don't find a gem to bring to life like you did in 3.0. You just grab the feat and you get one, so since Psicrystals are free those familiar rules in 3.0 shouldn't apply.

I'm gonna concede here because of the very last reason and the unreleased comp psi errata. I think it's intentional that psicrystals are free and if they're free they ain't familiars.

Why didn't they release the comp psi errata. How hard is it to upload it. Boo. We could've extrapolated the 12 hour thing to psicrystals and this unclearness would've been over.

[Segev]

According to pg.98 of races of the dragon, proffesion:mining is the correct answer to using a pickaxe or other mining tools.Ah, good to know. I was hesitant to suggest that because Professions aren't usually used to alter the environment, but that certainly works.


If it helps, I heard that there was an "official" errata document for Complete Psionic that was written up but never actually published, and I managed to track it down. I obviously can't really verify its authenticity, but it does actually have a line of errata for the Elemental Envoy feat:


p. 53, 2nd paragraph below pic, Special:
Fix: add last sentence: “However, if your steward dies you suffer no additional consequences,
and a new one automatically replaces the previous one twelve hours later.”

I personally never enforce the wait period for replacing a companion creature, mainly because I'm terrible with calendars and schedules, but also because doing so wouldn't bring anybody any pleasure. I usually just ask them to "pay the price" in some token way: going without your Special Mount for a few encounters, and roleplaying your melancholy, is usually enough in my book.

I also don't ever force characters to eat wastage in their build: I waive feat taxes, or buff weak feats, or just look for ways to generate opportunities for them to use their build choices; and I usually allow free retraining. So, I would definitely allow an Elemental Envoy to advance hit points and stats like a familiar would.To be fair, 12 hours translates to "next time your party recovers their daily abilities" for most adventuring purposes. I know it's possible for it not to overlap that way - happening sooner or later than that - but it's approximately right enough that it shouldn't be hard to track, nor should it be more than "a few encounters," either, unless you're grossly violating the recommended number of encounters per day.

[RoboEmperor]

After reviewing the topic even more, I'm completely convinced MaxiDuRaritry is right.


Benefit

This feat allows you to gain a psicrystal.

Doesn't say you get a psicrystal. it says it lets you get a psicrystal.


A psicrystal is a fragment of a psionic character’s personality, brought into physical form and a semblance of life (via the Psicrystal Affinity feat).

It says the feat lets you create and bring the psicrystal to life. It says you just will it into being.

Without any rules penalizing psicrystal death, I don't see why you can't use Psicrystal Affinity to create a new psicrystal over and over without limitation just like there's no limitation to how many times you can use power attack in a day.

So yeah, there you have it. By RAW you have at-will Elemental Envoy and Psicrystal Affinity. So this means Elemental Envoy is even more fantastic than I imagined. It's better than Summon Elemental Reserve Feat and comes online at level 1.

But most DMs will probably house rule a waiting period.

[Blue Jay]

To be fair, 12 hours translates to "next time your party recovers their daily abilities" for most adventuring purposes. I know it's possible for it not to overlap that way - happening sooner or later than that - but it's approximately right enough that it shouldn't be hard to track, nor should it be more than "a few encounters," either, unless you're grossly violating the recommended number of encounters per day.

Yeah, I was thinking more broadly about wait periods in general, including the paladin's enforced month of mourning and the druid's 24 hours of uninterrupted prayer. To me, the only important thing is that there's a token payment, because I feel like there should be an in-game consequence for these things, but I don't want really enjoy making my players suffer. I prefer using "a few encounters" rather than X hours just to ensure that the player does pay some kind of price; because you know that the player is going to want to say "let's rest for X hours then, so I don't have to go without my companion."

And actually, now that I think about it, I think I've only really ever enforced it for 1 encounter, not "a few." I think there was one time I enforced companion separation for 2 encounters, but that wasn't because of a loss and wait period: it was because the paladin was being held prisoner and forced to fight in a gladiatorial arena, where mounts weren't allowed. Actually, to be honest, I usually avoid going after a player's companions too hard, anyway: my villains usually just use nonlethal tactics to remove companions from combat instead of trying to kill them.

[gogogome]

After reviewing the topic even more, I'm completely convinced MaxiDuRaritry is right.



Doesn't say you get a psicrystal. it says it lets you get a psicrystal.



It says the feat lets you create and bring the psicrystal to life. It says you just will it into being.

Without any rules penalizing psicrystal death, I don't see why you can't use Psicrystal Affinity to create a new psicrystal over and over without limitation just like there's no limitation to how many times you can use power attack in a day.

So yeah, there you have it. By RAW you have at-will Elemental Envoy and Psicrystal Affinity. So this means Elemental Envoy is even more fantastic than I imagined. It's better than Summon Elemental Reserve Feat and comes online at level 1.

But most DMs will probably house rule a waiting period.

This makes sense. From a RAW perspective I believe you are right. You can always will a psicrystal into being with no penalty. I can't poke holes in this reasoning. By RAW the feat creates the psicrystal and there is no restrictions other than you can only have one.

Seems kind of... broken. But then again, how is it any different than the summon elemental reserve feat? It's not like psicrystals have any combat capabilities.

[RoboEmperor]

It's not like psicrystals have any combat capabilities.

With metamorphosis they can turn into hydra or war troll beatsticks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

With metamorphosis they can turn into hydra or war troll beatsticks.They can also act as an orbital bombardment platform. Think about how much damage this dishes out:


Frickin' Laser Beams
Use energy conversion, a psicrystal (with metamorphosis to remove immunity to mind-affecting effects), schism, Chain Power, Split Psionic Ray, Overchannel, Greater/Psionic Shot, and Aligned Attack/a chasuble of fell power, along with energy wall to charge it up, to deal up to (8x[ML+3]x3)+7d6 damage (and half damage to tons of secondary creatures) every single round, and all for the cost of one energy conversion and one energy wall (both manifested beforehand) and a schism (a psychoactive skin can take care of the metamorphosis bit).
That's easily 500+ damage per round for one target before level 20. And the total very rapidly climbs when Chain Power spreads extra damage around.

[gogogome]

Considering how every single companion spell/class feature takes 24 hours to perform I don't think I'm house ruling when i extrapolate this into psicrystals as well. Familiars, Animal Companions, and even the Skeletal Minion from Unearthed Arcana all take 24 hours to obtain a companion.

[RoboEmperor]

Considering how every single companion spell/class feature takes 24 hours to perform I don't think I'm house ruling when i extrapolate this into psicrystals as well. Familiars, Animal Companions, and even the Skeletal Minion from Unearthed Arcana all take 24 hours to obtain a companion.


Because psionic feats are supernatural abilities

Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.

You are house ruling : )

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You are house ruling : )Ha! Nice catch!

[RoboEmperor]

Ha! Nice catch!

So do you now revise your opinion on Elemental Envoy? It's Summon Elemental Reserve Feat obtainable at level 1 and you can switch between a Psicrystal or an Elemental Envoy anytime you want.

[CactusAir]

Since when did burrow speeds leave a tunnel behind you?

Burrow speed is not disintegrate. It lets you move through loose earth, and the earth closes up behind you. You need Xorn movement/Earthglide to move through rock.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So do you now revise your opinion on Elemental Envoy? It's Summon Elemental Reserve Feat obtainable at level 1 and you can switch between a Psicrystal or an Elemental Envoy anytime you want.No?

I'd have to destroy my beloved psicrystal friend and replace him with the ability to dig a hole. Not worth it.

[Segev]

So do you now revise your opinion on Elemental Envoy? It's Summon Elemental Reserve Feat obtainable at level 1 and you can switch between a Psicrystal or an Elemental Envoy anytime you want.


No?

I'd have to destroy my beloved psicrystal friend and replace him with the ability to dig a hole. Not worth it.

With this interpretation, does this in any way require you to actually give up your psicrystal to have an elemental envoy? Heck, does it even limit you to one at a time of any of them? I don't see text that explicitly states you can't call up more than one at a time, nor that you have to give up your psicrystal to call up an elemental envoy.

Heck, this seems to make the feat that lets you Improve your psicrystal by adding a second personality fragment pointless: just call up a second, third, fourth, etc. psicrystal with a different personality fragment.

But, MaxiDuRaritry, do you really regret giving up the psicrystal if it has one of the ruder, less pleasant, more obnoxious personality fragments? :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

With this interpretation, does this in any way require you to actually give up your psicrystal to have an elemental envoy? Heck, does it even limit you to one at a time of any of them? I don't see text that explicitly states you can't call up more than one at a time, nor that you have to give up your psicrystal to call up an elemental envoy.

Heck, this seems to make the feat that lets you Improve your psicrystal by adding a second personality fragment pointless: just call up a second, third, fourth, etc. psicrystal with a different personality fragment.Um... What?

"Special: You cannot simultaneously possess both a psicrystal and an elemental envoy."


But, MaxiDuRaritry, do you really regret giving up the psicrystal if it has one of the ruder, less pleasant, more obnoxious personality fragments? :smallwink:I'm RPing my little buddy. He loves me, and he's only annoying to other people. Like, a lot. But that's okay, because he loves me. I'm gonna love him and pet him and squeeze him and hug him.

[Segev]

Um... What?

"Special: You cannot simultaneously possess both a psicrystal and an elemental envoy."Ah, okay. I knew I had to be missing something. Do either of these feats prevent - explicitly - summoning more than one at a time?

I know full well it's intended they not permit this, but since we're in the weeds on what's allowed....


I'm RPing my little buddy. He loves me, and he's only annoying to other people. Like, a lot. But that's okay, because he loves me. I'm gonna love him and pet him and squeeze him and hug him.

d'awww.


You do realize you can just conjure him again if anything happens, right?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ah, okay. I knew I had to be missing something. Do either of these feats prevent - explicitly - summoning more than one at a time?

I know full well it's intended they not permit this, but since we're in the weeds on what's allowed.......maybe?

Psicrystal Affinity says you can make a psicrystal, which is apparently a standard action, but it says nothing about spending multiple actions making multiple psicrystals. Elemental Envoy's wording suggests you only get one, but it doesn't actually prevent you getting multiples. Though it does let you gain a new geodude whenever you could gain a psicrystal, so you should be able to get multiples. Except you can't get a psicrystal when you already have a geodude, so you're unable to get a geodude if you already have one...

This is a strange and scary new land we have entered. Here be dragons psicrystals. Also dragons. Because there are always dragons. Half-dragons have to come from somewhere, after all. And half-dragons are everywhere.

Hmm. If you could have innumerable psicrystals, does that give you innumerable psionic foci vis-à-vis Psicrystal Containment?


d'awww.

You do realize you can just conjure him again if anything happens, right?But is he my same li'l psicrystal buddy? I mean, teleporters from Star Trek rip your atoms apart and then recreate "you" at the other end using random particles they have lying around. But you were destroyed at the other end, and there's no actual transfer going on, just a body and mind being recreated wholesale according to a pattern. So is it still you? And would that still be my psicrystal buddy using basically the same process, but using psionics instead?

[Segev]

...maybe?

Psicrystal Affinity says you can make a psicrystal, which is apparently a standard action, but it says nothing about spending multiple actions making multiple psicrystals. Elemental Envoy's wording suggests you only get one, but it doesn't actually prevent you getting multiples. Though it does let you gain a new geodude whenever you could gain a psicrystal, so you should be able to get multiples. Except you can't get a psicrystal when you already have a geodude, so you're unable to get a geodude if you already have one...

This is a strange and scary new land we have entered. Here be dragons psicrystals. Also dragons. Because there are always dragons. Half-dragons have to come from somewhere, after all. And half-dragons are everywhere.

Hmm. If you could have innumerable psicrystals, does that give you innumerable psionic foci vis-à-vis Psicrystal Containment?If your DM is allowing it, I don't see why not. I do agree that no sane DM is going to accept these interpretations of the RAW; given how they're written, it's clear the intent was against more than one. But it's an interesting hole in the text.


But is he my same li'l psicrystal buddy? I mean, teleporters from Star Trek rip your atoms apart and then recreate "you" at the other end using random particles they have lying around. But you were destroyed at the other end, and there's no actual transfer going on, just a body and mind being recreated wholesale according to a pattern. So is it still you? And would that still be my psicrystal buddy?
Given that he's a fragment of your own psyche, I assume that you can just project that same fragment again.

Not that I'm recommending deliberately getting rid of your little buddy, just suggesting that, if the worst happens, you can recreate exactly him.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not that I'm recommending deliberately getting rid of your little buddy, just suggesting that, if the worst happens, you can recreate exactly him.You better not, because he has a psychoactive skin of proteus and I'm not afraid to use it.

[Segev]

You better not, because he has a psychoactive skin of proteus and I'm not afraid to use it.

...then why doesn't he just morph into an elemental envoy?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...then why doesn't he just morph into an elemental envoy?Because thoqqua (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm).

[RoboEmperor]

Because thoqqua (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm).

What if you want to check the other side of a dungeon wall before you accumulate 84,000gp?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What if you want to check the other side of a dungeon wall before you accumulate 84,000gp?Synesthete + Burrowing Power? A much better use of a feat than burning your psicrystal at an altar and wasting a feat on Elemental Envoy. Plus, there's the summon elemental steward power, which allows you to keep your psicrystal.

[remetagross]

...maybe?

Psicrystal Affinity says you can make a psicrystal, which is apparently a standard action, but it says nothing about spending multiple actions making multiple psicrystals. Elemental Envoy's wording suggests you only get one, but it doesn't actually prevent you getting multiples. Though it does let you gain a new geodude whenever you could gain a psicrystal, so you should be able to get multiples. Except you can't get a psicrystal when you already have a geodude, so you're unable to get a geodude if you already have one...

This is a strange and scary new land we have entered. Here be dragons psicrystals. Also dragons. Because there are always dragons. Half-dragons have to come from somewhere, after all. And half-dragons are everywhere.

Hmm. If you could have innumerable psicrystals, does that give you innumerable psionic foci vis-à-vis Psicrystal Containment?


I'm continuously amazed to see that, 12 years after 3.5 has ceased, we keep discovering new loopholes and new crazy stuff to do by RAW :smallbiggrin:

[RoboEmperor]

Psicrystal Affinity gives you the ability to gain a psicrystal. I'm pretty sure the wording prevents you from gaining two psicrystals or three.

[Crichton]

Psicrystal Affinity gives you the ability to gain a psicrystal. I'm pretty sure the wording prevents you from gaining two psicrystals or three.

Agreed. Especially since the text of the feat also says "You have created a psicrystal." Have created. Past tense(perfect tense, if we're being all grammarly). Doesn't seem like it's gonna let you do it again, although the case has been made for how to handle replacement psicrystals if yours dies.

[Segev]

And let us remember, even if it does by the RAW, this is "start ducking flying XPHs" level of rules-lawyering. It's clear enough what the intent is that it took 12+ years for us to have this conversation, and any DM not running a crack powergaming campaign is all but certainly going to limit you to 1 at a time.

[RoboEmperor]

Guys, does this work?

1. Stand behind your Geodite
2. Geodite attacks
3. Manifest Synchronicity. Use Share Powers to have it affect the Geodite as well.
4. Geodite uses its readied action to attack
5. Use your readied action to manifest Synchronicity. Use Share Powers to have it affect the Geodite as well.
6. Repeat 4 & 5.
7. Repeat 4 & 5.
8. Repeat 4 & 5.
9. Repeat 4 & 5.

Until you're out of power points.