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Rijan_Sai
2019-04-23, 10:56 AM
So first, I don't usually frequent this forum, so I apologize if this has been brought up before...

Second, I was reading through the comic again, when I came across this little gem:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html

BANJO WAS ALMOST PART OF THE ASGARD PANTHEON!!! Do you realize how much this could have changed the Godsmoot?!?

...Okay, I'm going back to lurking now.

Fyraltari
2019-04-23, 11:07 AM
Yeah we do. It would have changed squat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html)

Also apology accepted and appreciated as this is has been brought up. A lot.

drazen
2019-04-23, 12:43 PM
Yeah we do. It would have changed squat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html)

Also apology accepted and appreciated as this is has been brought up. A lot.


Additionally, Odin probably wasn't quite all there, mentally (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1145.html) when he was considering admitting a puppet to the Northern Pantheon.

Peelee
2019-04-23, 12:53 PM
BANJO WAS ALMOST PART OF THE ASGARD PANTHEON!!! Do you realize how much this could have changed the Godsmoot?!?

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/028/596/dsmGaKWMeHXe9QuJtq_ys30PNfTGnMsRuHuo_MUzGCg.jpg

Also, there is no Asgardian Pantheon.

PopeLinus1
2019-04-23, 02:32 PM
Not a whit, Fyraltari, if the cost of the spread of knowledge is repetition, the ideal man' life should be an endless pattern! We are playgrounders, Fyraltari, we are the torchbearers of knowledge, an ever spreading fire lighting up the shadows of ignorance, a fire that shall never burn out, until everyone on this earth draws there final breath. No one shall dare apologize for their attempts to gain knowledge, nor for any ignorance on their part.

We defy augury, Fyraltari, there is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow.

Fyraltari
2019-04-23, 03:13 PM
Not a whit, Fryaltari, if the cost of the spread of knowledge is repetition, the ideal man' life should be an endless pattern! We are playgrounders, Fryaltari, we are the torchbearers of knowledge, an ever spreading fire lighting up the shadows of ignorance, a fire that shall never burn out, until everyone on this earth draws there final breath. No one shall dare apologize for their attempts to gain knowledge, nor for any ignorance on their part.

We defy augury, Fryaltari, there is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow.
I hope you convince this Fryaltari guy; you seem pretty invested in that.

Peelee
2019-04-23, 03:19 PM
I hope you convince this Fryaltari guy; you seem pretty invested in that.

I'm gonna call you Fry (https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/futurama/1/11/Fry.jpg?width=640) for short.

Fyraltari
2019-04-23, 03:30 PM
I'm gonna call you Fry (https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/futurama/1/11/Fry.jpg?width=640) for short.
Suit yourself, Pelee.

Peelee
2019-04-23, 03:39 PM
Suit yourself, Pelee.

I am not amused (https://res.cloudinary.com/sagacity/image/upload/c_crop,h_1735,w_1671,x_362,y_768/c_limit,dpr_auto,f_auto,fl_lossy,q_80,w_1080/0817-mudroom-pele_vkogyh.jpg).

Fyraltari
2019-04-23, 04:12 PM
I am not amused (https://res.cloudinary.com/sagacity/image/upload/c_crop,h_1735,w_1671,x_362,y_768/c_limit,dpr_auto,f_auto,fl_lossy,q_80,w_1080/0817-mudroom-pele_vkogyh.jpg).
:smalltongue:

Riftwolf
2019-04-23, 04:21 PM
Really hope one day a new post will promise godly insights and not be about Banjo at the Godsmoot.
How long should I give it? A year? Two?

CriticalFailure
2019-04-23, 07:03 PM
Yeah we do. It would have changed squat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html)

Also apology accepted and appreciated as this is has been brought up. A lot.

I like how that comic foreshadows The Dark One not being accounted for in any existing deific protocols.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-04-24, 06:12 AM
All hail Banjo!
Mightiest of gods!

PopeLinus1
2019-04-24, 08:18 AM
I hope you convince this Fyraltari guy; you seem pretty invested in that.

I do but jest, sir, Verbosity in jest, no offence in the world.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-04-26, 06:03 AM
I do but jest, sir, Verbosity in jest, no offence in the world.

verbosity is a good word.

PopeLinus1
2019-04-26, 09:50 AM
verbosity is a good word.

Words, there all we have to go on.

understatement
2019-04-26, 03:34 PM
The chance of Banjo doing anything paramount to the universe is the same probability Giggles will.

Aveline
2019-04-26, 09:14 PM
The chance of Banjo doing anything paramount to the universe is the same probability Giggles will.

Giggles has an entire island of orcs on Banjo, so I think he has a leg up.

Squire Doodad
2019-04-28, 03:28 PM
Giggles has an entire island of orcs on Banjo, so I think he has a leg up.

That said, Giggles and Banjo are both believed in by about the same number of people (like 200) so that's doing alright. Though there are probably only 10 or so active Banjo worshippers aside from prayers at special events.


Really hope one day a new post will promise godly insights and not be about Banjo at the Godsmoot.
How long should I give it? A year? Two?

I'm learning towards two. It'll take a while. (https://xkcd.com/1232/)

Wizard_Lizard
2019-04-29, 03:31 AM
Words, there all we have to go on.

do not underestimate the power of words! For is it not said that the pen is mightier than the sword!*

*but only if the word is very small and blunt and the pen is very sharp. Do not try this axiom at home.

PopeLinus1
2019-04-29, 08:20 AM
do not underestimate the power of words! For is it not said that the pen is mightier than the sword!*

*but only if the word is very small and blunt and the pen is very sharp. Do not try this axiom at home.


And the most powerful pen of all is the 15th one.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-04-30, 04:19 AM
And the most powerful pen of all is the 15th one.

Why is that?

ohhhhhhhh..........

I expected better of you random internet stranger.

PopeLinus1
2019-04-30, 08:30 AM
Why is that?

ohhhhhhhh..........

I expected better of you random internet stranger.

Now you listen, you ungrateful wench, the mystic order of the pen15 will rise from the ashes of our dead playground. They will slaughter those who disagree with them and burn their corpses, even now they are all around their spies are always watching, always waiting to kill and replace us. When they return, they will cut off Rich's head and declare sovereignty of the playground. They will not be just rulers. If you speak out in the night, you will be brought to the gallows and your family meant to watch as they torture you to death. They have millions of soildiers just waiting to pillage this playground, don't you see? Don't you see! DON'T YOU SEE!

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-01, 04:26 AM
Now you listen, you ungrateful wench, the mystic order of the pen15 will rise from the ashes of our dead playground. They will slaughter those who disagree with them and burn their corpses, even now they are all around their spies are always watching, always waiting to kill and replace us. When they return, they will cut off Rich's head and declare sovereignty of the playground. They will not be just rulers. If you speak out in the night, you will be brought to the gallows and your family meant to watch as they torture you to death. They have millions of soildiers just waiting to pillage this playground, don't you see? Don't you see! DON'T YOU SEE!

OH NO!Kinglingus is in league with the doors!

I really hate doors

They are evil and must be stopped

Ron Miel
2019-05-01, 08:51 AM
Not a whit, Fyraltari, if the cost of the spread of knowledge is repetition, the ideal man' life should be an endless pattern! We are playgrounders, Fyraltari, we are the torchbearers of knowledge, an ever spreading fire lighting up the shadows of ignorance, a fire that shall never burn out, until everyone on this earth draws there final breath. No one shall dare apologize for their attempts to gain knowledge, nor for any ignorance on their part.

We defy augury, Fyraltari, there is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow.


Very poetic. Is this an (adapted) quote from something?

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-02, 12:39 AM
Not a whit, Fyraltari, if the cost of the spread of knowledge is repetition, the ideal man' life should be an endless pattern! We are playgrounders, Fyraltari, we are the torchbearers of knowledge, an ever spreading fire lighting up the shadows of ignorance, a fire that shall never burn out, until everyone on this earth draws there final breath. No one shall dare apologize for their attempts to gain knowledge, nor for any ignorance on their part.

We defy augury, Fyraltari, there is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow.

I agree, and couldn't agree more.
I find the very idea of fate repulsive, because if everything is predetermined then, what's the point?

RatElemental
2019-05-04, 05:36 AM
I agree, and couldn't agree more.
I find the very idea of fate repulsive, because if everything is predetermined then, what's the point?

We still get to enjoy the ride. It's like a big cosmic roller coaster.

As the powerful play goes on, does it really matter if we're contributing the verse, or just acting it out? Could we even tell the difference in the first place?

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-04, 06:35 AM
We still get to enjoy the ride. It's like a big cosmic roller coaster.

As the powerful play goes on, does it really matter if we're contributing the verse, or just acting it out? Could we even tell the difference in the first place?

No. But free will is important.

RatElemental
2019-05-04, 06:41 AM
No. But free will is important.

Is it though? No one has ever offered me a sensical answer to what difference free will would make or what it even actually is.

Peelee
2019-05-04, 06:58 AM
Is it though? No one has ever offered me a sensical answer to what difference free will would make or what it even actually is.

Did they choose to not tell you, or were they never really able to tell you?

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 07:00 AM
Did they choose to not tell you, or were they never really able to tell you?

What's the difference?

Peelee
2019-05-04, 07:14 AM
What's the difference?

Let's say I punch you. With free will, I chose to punch you (and I am a jerk). Without free will, I had no control over punching you, and there is nothing wring with me.

Now Godwin that.

RatElemental
2019-05-04, 07:19 AM
Let's say I punch you. With free will, I chose to punch you (and I am a jerk). Without free will, I had no control over punching you, and there is nothing wring with me.

Now Godwin that.

Oh having no free will doesn't mean you can't be a danger to others, just ask any dangerous industrial machine in the world, especially ones with few or poorly implemented safety features.

Whether free will is illusory or not there will be consequences for our actions, and that understanding is one of the factors that plays into said actions. Including the consequences for the person you punched. See? you can still be a jerk with no free will.

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 07:22 AM
Let's say I punch you. With free will, I chose to punch you (and I am a jerk). Without free will, I had no control over punching you, and there is nothing wring with me.

Now Godwin that.
Define choice.

Peelee
2019-05-04, 07:34 AM
Oh having no free will doesn't mean you can't be a danger to others
Never said you couldn't.

Whether free will is illusory or not there will be consequences for our actions, and that understanding is one of the factors that plays into said actions. Including the consequences for the person you punched. See? you can still be a jerk with no free will.
Without free will, I'm not understanding anything unless the universe decides I do. Not a jerk. :smalltongue:

Define choice.
Did I punch you or did the universe make it so you were punched? This is the OED definition.

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 07:39 AM
Did I punch you or did the universe make it so you were punched? This is the OED definition.

But "I" is part of the universe. If you punch me, you did that as a result of causes which couldn't have other consequences, in that sense, it wasn't a choice, however, most of these causes are your own nature: who you are, your persoanlity, etc, ... in that sense it was your choice. Many people, when talking about free-will mean libertarian* free-will which is the idea that one can make choices independently of the entire universe, which would make those choices uttelry random. And that is just weird.

*Nothing to do with economics or politics, don't ban pliz.

Peelee
2019-05-04, 07:47 AM
Many people, when talking about free-will mean libertarian* free-will which is the idea that one can make choices independently of the entire universe, which would make those choices uttelry random.

Choices made dependant on other factors are still choices. If a RatElemental will give me million dollars to punch you, I can still not punch you (although you're probably getting punched, and then getting compendated for it).

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 07:53 AM
Choices made dependant on other factors are still choices. If a RatElemental will give me million dollars to punch you, I can still not punch you (although you're probably getting punched, and then getting compendated for it).

And? How do you make that decision? Does it not depend on your character and principles? Are those not determined?

Peelee
2019-05-04, 07:55 AM
And? How do you make that decision? Does it not depend on your character and principles? Are those nt determined?

Nope. :smalltongue:

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 08:03 AM
Nope. :smalltongue:

Which question is that an answer to?

Peelee
2019-05-04, 08:08 AM
Which question is that an answer to?

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1656/7869/products/IronGiant02_530x.png?v=1483652540

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 08:13 AM
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1656/7869/products/IronGiant02_530x.png?v=1483652540

Then answer how you make a choice.

Peelee
2019-05-04, 08:18 AM
Then answer how you make a choice.

Rush did an interesting thesis on this.

Bonus answer: "My actions are justified because they produce a better outcome than any other action in this particular case. It's a basic philosophy, act utilitarianism, Jeremy Bentham." - Dr. Jack Griffin, Ph.D

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 08:20 AM
Rush did an interesting thesis on this.

I don’t know who that is. And that’s not an answer.

Peelee
2019-05-04, 08:29 AM
I don’t know who that is. And that’s not an answer.

20th century philosophy organization. One of its members, Neil Peart, once asserted, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 08:58 AM
So are you planning to answer the question at some point?

Peelee
2019-05-04, 09:15 AM
So are you planning to answer the question at some point?

That is indeed the question! Am I planning to answer the question? Or is fate refusing to let me answer the question? Am I a victim of determinism, destined to never answer the question due to being entirely unable, through no fault of my own? Or am I willfully acting this way, possibly for an ulterior motive such as making a specific point, if in a roundabout way? :smallwink:

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 09:19 AM
This is a false dichotomy. Determinism does not negate choice. Your refusing to challenge that does not make you right, only irritating.

Peelee
2019-05-04, 09:41 AM
This is a false dichotomy. Determinism does not negate choice. Your refusing to challenge that does not make you right, only irritating.

From the googles:


de·ter·min·ism

/dəˈtərməˌnizəm/

noun

PHILOSOPHY

the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

Consider me among those that take determinism to imply that the individual has no free will.

Aveline
2019-05-04, 09:54 AM
20th century philosophy organization. One of its members, Neil Peart, once asserted, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

I find Peart's actual messages vary between nebulous and downright harmful. "Freewill" is both.

Personally I have an stochastic model of the universe which permits free will and determinism simultaneously through information entropy.

Peelee
2019-05-04, 10:07 AM
I find Peart's actual messages vary between nebulous and downright harmful. "Freewill" is both.


Interesting. I'd love to hear more, if you don't mind. Also, what are your thoughts on the trees?

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 10:15 AM
From the googles:



Consider me among those that take determinism to imply that the individual has no free will.

Then, answer the bloody question. If the choices aren’t determined how are they made? Are they just random?

Peelee
2019-05-04, 10:18 AM
Then, answer the bloody question. If the choices aren’t determined how are they made? Are they just random?

An unknown mix of nature and nurture, I'd say.

Aveline
2019-05-04, 10:29 AM
Interesting. I'd love to hear more, if you don't mind. Also, what are your thoughts on the trees?

Freewill: Not on these forums. The Trees: A rudimentary description of a class system, and an utter failure to deliver a message. If one looks for a message, one finds either "they all died for unrelated reasons" (this is completely vacuous) or "maples are maples, oaks are oaks" (dangerous when applied to people).

Peart is very good at imagery and meter. And drums. Those are highly relevant skills in the domain of progressive rock music. But purveyors of deep philosophy, Rush are not.

Don't even get me started on Hemispheres.



(don't get me wrong, The Trees is a good song. I'm going to go listen to it again right now.)

Peelee
2019-05-04, 10:48 AM
Freewill: Not on these forums. The Trees: A rudimentary description of a class system, and an utter failure to deliver a message. If one looks for a message,

That last part is the key, though. It didn't fail to deliver a message because there was no message. It was, IIRC, based off a silly cartoon, and written as such. Which isn't to say it doesnt totally seem like there's a message there; I thought it was obviously allegorical for some time, for example (though I took away a different message).

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 10:50 AM
An unknown mix of nature and nurture, I'd say.
That’s determinism.

Aveline
2019-05-04, 11:03 AM
That last part is the key, though. It didn't fail to deliver a message because there was no message. It was, IIRC, based off a silly cartoon, and written as such. Which isn't to say it doesnt totally seem like there's a message there; I thought it was obviously allegorical for some time, for example (though I took away a different message).

Okay, "utterly fail" was a bit harsh of me, and it's fine for a song not to be a dutiful proposition of some huge idea. Most of Rush's songs beg to be taken as such though, and I answered in that context since we were already talking about Freewill.

Peelee
2019-05-04, 11:31 AM
That’s determinism.

That's debatable.

Fyraltari
2019-05-04, 11:39 AM
That's debatable.

Not really, both nature and nurture are deterministic.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-04, 08:50 PM
interesting. I'd love to hear more, if you don't mind. Also, what are your thoughts on the trees?

evil!!!!!!!!!!

The MunchKING
2019-05-05, 10:02 AM
Rush did an interesting thesis on this.

wow, when he's not being a spring for Megaman (https://megaman.fandom.com/wiki/Rush), he really puts that robot brain to the test.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-06, 03:17 AM
I dislike the idea of fatalism
Philosophical evidence not taken into consideration
If choice is an illusion, I am happy to believe in said illusion.

RatElemental
2019-05-06, 04:08 AM
I dislike the idea of fatalism
Philosophical evidence not taken into consideration
If choice is an illusion, I am happy to believe in said illusion.

If it's an illusion, I still don't get what the big deal is. Also, still never seen an explanation for what "free will" actually is or does.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-06, 05:15 AM
If it's an illusion, I still don't get what the big deal is. Also, still never seen an explanation for what "free will" actually is or does.

Free will is the ability to make a choice. Not based purely on external pressures, but because YOU want to.

RatElemental
2019-05-06, 05:44 AM
Free will is the ability to make a choice. Not based purely on external pressures, but because YOU want to.

I reiterate: How can you tell the difference between having it, and not having it?

If you could rewind time perfectly such that no physical influence would change to before someone made a decision, what would you expect to see happen if they had free will?

And this is setting aside that determinists generally consider the internal factors of someone's nature/personality to be the most important factors in the decisions people make, even if they go on to say that those are ultimately decided by external factors that happened prior to said decisions.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-06, 05:59 AM
I reiterate: How can you tell the difference between having it, and not having it

You probably couldn't, but I CHOOSE to believe in choice. Whether or not The choice was made by me, or factors beyond my control.
But if everything is predetermined how can anyone be at fault?
If I rob a bank, did I choose to rob the bank, or was it caused by external factors out of my control, if so, then I had no CHOICE But to rob it. And therefore should not be held responsible.

RatElemental
2019-05-06, 06:48 AM
You probably couldn't, but I CHOOSE to believe in choice. Whether or not The choice was made by me, or factors beyond my control.
But if everything is predetermined how can anyone be at fault?
If I rob a bank, did I choose to rob the bank, or was it caused by external factors out of my control, if so, then I had no CHOICE But to rob it. And therefore should not be held responsible.

We're just going around in circles, but if you rob a bank, whether you freely chose to or not (whatever that means), you've shown yourself to be the type of person who will rob banks. I don't see why taking measures to keep you from robbing more banks is unreasonable, whether it be imprisonment or some sort of rehabilitation if such a thing is possible.

That said, I do think we've derailed this pretty hard, maybe a post in one of the general discussion forums would be better.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-06, 06:55 AM
We're just going around in circles, but if you rob a bank, whether you freely chose to or not (whatever that means), you've shown yourself to be the type of person who will rob banks. I don't see why taking measures to keep you from robbing more banks is unreasonable, whether it be imprisonment or some sort of rehabilitation if such a thing is possible.

That said, I do think we've derailed this pretty hard, maybe a post in one of the general discussion forums would be better.

I admit to having a flawed analogy.
I still choose to believe in choice, factualy accurate or not.
I don't lose anything from this opinion, nor does it harm anyone, and this opinion pleases me. Therefore I see no reason to dispute it.

and yes, we should probably get back on track so...
All praise Banjo?

ijuinkun
2019-05-10, 12:51 AM
You probably couldn't, but I CHOOSE to believe in choice. Whether or not The choice was made by me, or factors beyond my control.
But if everything is predetermined how can anyone be at fault?
If I rob a bank, did I choose to rob the bank, or was it caused by external factors out of my control, if so, then I had no CHOICE But to rob it. And therefore should not be held responsible.

To carry the idea to its conclusion, if everything is caused by external factors, then we have no choice but to hold you responsible, because that too has been predetermined.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-10, 01:31 AM
To carry the idea to its conclusion, if everything is caused by external factors, then we have no choice but to hold you responsible, because that too has been predetermined.

Ye The analogy was flawed

Jaxzan Proditor
2019-05-14, 11:24 AM
Rush did an interesting thesis on this.

You know, I’m with Fyraltari on his compatibilism train, but I appreciate this answer because it was actually a discussion about “Freewill” that led to a friend of mine convincing me we don’t libertarian free will.

(Also, re: Rush and deep philosophy, it’s probably not an accident that the reason I like most of my favorite Rush songs, such as “YYZ”, has little to do with any of their philosophy. I’m not much of an individualist :smalltongue:)

Oh, and I’m with RatElemental here. If you’re the kind of person who enjoys robbing banks (or punching people in the face), it’s not unreasonable to expect that people will do their best to change/prevent your behavior, regardless of your moral culpability. Recognizing that there’s no moral culpability involved, however, does mean there shouldn’t be any punitive about your rehabilitation/containment.

Fyraltari
2019-05-14, 12:08 PM
It's also weird to say that that determinism means people don't have moral cuplability for their actions when people's sense of morality is a major cause of their actions.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-16, 02:25 PM
It's also weird to say that that determinism means people don't have moral cuplability for their actions when people's sense of morality is a major cause of their actions.

I wasnt talking about determinism. I was talking about fatalism. Which means that everything is predetermined by the gods or some divine being. Also I hate astrology. For the same reasons.

Lord Torath
2019-05-16, 04:24 PM
I think Bill Watterson put it best:

Calvin: I decided I believe in astrology and horoscopes.

Hobbes: Really?

Calvin: You bet. It only makes sense that every facet of our daily lives should depend upon the position of celestial bodies hudreds of millions of miles away. Look here. Today I'll have "Key policies implemented". I get to have my way!

Hobbes: Oh those mischievous planets.

Also:

Calvin: I've decided to be a fatalist. All events are preordained and unalterable. That way, if anything bad happens, it's not my fault.

Hobbes: <Trips Calvin>

Calvin: WAUGH!

Hobbes: Too bad you were fated to do that.

Calvin: THAT WASN'T FATE!

ijuinkun
2019-05-18, 01:51 AM
I wasnt talking about determinism. I was talking about fatalism. Which means that everything is predetermined by the gods or some divine being. Also I hate astrology. For the same reasons.

There is something to be said for the idea that the time of year when you are born (or conceived) has an effect on your personality and health, but it has nothing to do with the stars and everything to do with the annual seasonal cycle. Temperature and humidity and seasonal exercise patterns would affect the mother and developing embryo, and would affect the newborn baby. Also, prior to the 20th century, people's diets would change with the seasons, with fresh fruit and vegetables available primarily in summer/autumn, and primarily preserved stuff eaten in winter/spring, and this would likely impact in utero development as well.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-05-18, 04:56 AM
There is something to be said for the idea that the time of year when you are born (or conceived) has an effect on your personality and health, but it has nothing to do with the stars and everything to do with the annual seasonal cycle. Temperature and humidity and seasonal exercise patterns would affect the mother and developing embryo, and would affect the newborn baby. Also, prior to the 20th century, people's diets would change with the seasons, with fresh fruit and vegetables available primarily in summer/autumn, and primarily preserved stuff eaten in winter/spring, and this would likely impact in utero development as well.

wow..... I did not expect a scientific explaination but thanks.