How would you fix the Ranger?

[Man_Over_Game]

So the Ranger has a few bugs.

Specifically, I'm talking about these features:

Natural Explorer

Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the Underdark. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.

While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:
◾Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel.
◾Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.
◾Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
◾If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
◾When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
◾While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.


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Primeval Awareness

Beginning at 3rd level, you can use your action and expend one ranger spell slot to focus your awareness on the region around you. For 1 minute per level of the spell slot you expend, you can sense whether the following types of creatures are present within 1 mile of you (or within up to 6 miles if you are in your favored terrain): aberrations, celestials, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. This feature doesn't reveal the creatures' location or number.

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Land's Stride

Starting at 8th level, moving through non-magical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through non-magical plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard.

In addition, you have advantage on saving throws against plants that are magically created or manipulated to impede movement.

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Hide in Plain Sight

Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt. plants. soot. and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.

Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.

--------------------

the Natural Explorer (Favored Terrain) mostly removes things of consequence (Difficult Terrain while traveling, can't become lost, forage more than enough food) that renders a lot of scenarios while traveling completely moot. No longer do you have to use your Ranger Skills or Ranger spells when your terrain feature solves the problem for you. No rolls. No checks. No tipping-of-the-fedora to the Ranger that he just saved his team a major hassle. Nothing. There is no reason for the Ranger to assume this feature does much of anything.

Primeval Awareness can expand out from 1-6 miles, giving you no indication of where your target is. And it's not like you have any more spell slots to use than the Paladin. The Ranger can already track down his favored enemy really well, so what exactly is this feature supposed to provide?

Land's Stride doesn't sound bad, but it's at a level when most of the Difficult Terrain you encounter is going to be caused from some kind of spell. DT is just too uncommon at most tables to really see this feature get any use, and very few tables have plants be so common that the Ranger would need a specific feature for them.

Hide In Plain Site is one of those abilities that requires the Ranger to split off from the party. The problem with party-splitting is that 1 minute you spend with the Ranger is 1 minute everyone else is doing nothing. If you have 5 players at a table, and you're only playing with one, a single minute of play translates to a cumulative 4 minutes of a player who isn't. It slows down the game and makes it worse for everyone. Not to mention the ability itself is so hard to use. When you get a Bonus Action hide 4 levels later, you have 2-3 special abilities for tracking people, and you can Hide better in your 3 Favored Terrains, your level 10 feature doesn't add anything of mention.


What would you guys do to fix these features up to make them worthwhile?

[R.Shackleford]

Make it a Rogue subclass.

Actually, make it three Rogue subclasses.

* Druid list 1/3 caster
* Strength/Dex axe fighting (dueling style or twf)
* Beastmaster

Level 3: Gain Favored Terrain, Favored Enemy, and one of the above. Base the beast on your proficiency bonus and not rogue level.

Make Favored Terrain and enemy a long rest mechanic and is about studying specific lands or creatures.

[Yunru]

The same way you fix a crippled phoenix.

[MagneticKitty]

I just don't care for the favored terrain thing at all. A lot of people say revised ranger is overtuned, and regular is meh. I'd make it a subclass of another martial, or like a swords bard equivilent but for ranger perhaps. Even a nature flavored cleric could work for it (Since they come with some martial) I just don't like base ranger chassis, and revised others don't like. (I do, but I agree it might be overtuned).

I don't think not getting lost is a problem. There's not getting lost, and there's not knowing where you are going. Another way is say they have to side track to get water or avoid an obstacle. Or magically whipped up snow storms getting magically lost.

After ranger 8 I am just bored of the later features, even on revised I leave ranger after 8.

It needs help, imo

[R.Shackleford]

The same way you fix a crippled phoenix.

3lbs of duct tape, some WD-40, and a shotgun.

[CTurbo]

I like the Revised Natural Explorer although it is a bit strong.

Primeval Awareness is the worst feature by far IMO. Not sure how to fix it, but it's terrible on a DM.

Land's stride should just be replaced with Evasion

Not sure about Hide in Plain Sight

Foe Slayer should be add Wis mod to attack AND damage rolls of favored enemies, and probably add Wis mod to attacks OR damage rolls to everything else full time.

[Phoenix042]

Revised ranger is a little frontloaded and pretty strong overall, but WAY more playable and less disruptive than the base ranger class.

In my group Revised is considered core. I'm pretty sad they stopped working on it.

[brainface]

Primeval Awareness

Beginning at 3rd level, you can use your action and expend one ranger spell slot to focus your awareness on the region around you. For 1 minute per level of the spell slot you expend, you can sense whether the following types of creatures are present within 1 mile of you (or within up to 6 miles if you are in your favored terrain): aberrations, celestials, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. This feature doesn't reveal the creatures' location or number.


I feel like the problem with primeval awareness is that it's too... rulesy? The original is so carefully worded as to be often useless, the revised is too much information. It seems like it'd be better served as background trait/character flavor, like "At the start of the session, you have an ominous feeling"--start smelling brimstone in the air of demons are around, hear the town crier shouting about exsanguinated bodies found, whatever. It's like it's trying to be a narrative game trait but perfectly described to not break the system, when it seems like "hey dm, tell the ranger some information about dangerous creatures in the area, at your discretion" is what it actually needs to do to work.

[KOLE]

My two copper,

Every group I’ve played and DMed with has included a Revised Ranger, so I have some playtest experience, Including playing a Hunter from 1-6. I don’t think its overtuned. I know it looks a little crazy on paper, but in play it balances well. Front loaded? Maybe, but that’s sort of a 5e thing in general. It combos well with Rogue for multi shenanigans, but we already had that with baseline Gloomstalker. It plays well, and satisfying. The Beastmaster was a little complex both for me as a DM and for my relatively new player, but ended up being incredibly rewarding. A fun class, solidly designed, and well balanced.

I think the fix for Ranger is already here. If you’re really worried, tell any interested players up front you won’t allow them to multiclass, as that’s the only way I can see it getting out of hand. You won’t regret allowing your players access to it.

PS, if you’re not convinced, and think the base RR is too much, you’re not comfortable having it at your table, or you have some min max munchkins and know they’ll try to milk it for all its worth, google the Consensus Ranger. It’s a sort of happy medium between PHB and RR. It looks good at a glance, though I havent picked it apart or playtested it.

[Sexyshoeless]

These are some of the classic conundrums every ranger rework seems to be attempting to fix in addition to the hunter's mark/favored enemy.

Natural explorer - It's definitely obnoxious as a nope button. As mentioned, the automaticity of the abilities makes for a lame gameplay experience and makes the novice ranger as good as the lvl 20th at what they do.

I would prefer to simply remove the perception penalty for fast travel, and allow stealth at normal pace with a limited number of creatures (perhaps wis modifier worth of creatures?). After that, I think alot of the spirit of natural explorer can be performed with expertise in survival, or advantage with perception, investigation, nature and survival that are connected to your favored terrain. Thoughts on this fix?

Primeval Awareness - I think one thing that would make it helpful is to add a) general direction and numbers (general, like outnumber you, a horde, a small group, etc). and b) gain some idea of strength - whether it be levels, CR, relative strength compared to you, etc. In return, force the ranger to choose/guess what type they are aiming to sense and what

Land's stride - Seems easy enough - just make it apply to magical difficult terrain.

Hide in plain sight- this is just a lame duck feature. I could say have it allow you to camoflage a number of creatures equal to proficiency in the same way to allow for collaboration, but that gets silly with pass without trace adding up to +20 to the roll, and as you mentioned doesnt add much with everything else going on.
I think it's fine to leave this as it is, as the real issue is not this ribbon, it's that the ranger basically gets nothing but conclave features at high levels. The ranger needs some kind of scaling abilities or just brand new high tier abilities in order to be an appealing high level single class. So I wouldnt even try to fix this classic ability - just add new high level stuff to bolster it.

[jh12]

the Natural Explorer (Favored Terrain) mostly removes things of consequence (Difficult Terrain while traveling, can't become lost, forage more than enough food) that renders a lot of scenarios while traveling completely moot. No longer do you have to use your Ranger Skills or Ranger spells when your terrain feature solves the problem for you. No rolls. No checks. No tipping-of-the-fedora to the Ranger that he just saved his team a major hassle. Nothing. There is no reason for the Ranger to assume this feature does much of anything.

I don't understand this complaint. You are using your Ranger Skills. It's just that in your Favored Terrain you are so well adapted to the terrain that you succeed automatically instead of having to roll for it. And I really don't understand why you wouldn't tip your hat to the Ranger because he saved his team a major hassle using Natural Explorer (Favored Terrain) instead of individual skill checks. A hassle saved is a hassle saved.

[Kane0]

I can't help but feel invested in this topic, I've gone over it that many times now.



Natural Explorer
Choose one type of favored terrain: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the Underdark. When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.

While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:
◾Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel.
◾Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.
◾Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
◾If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
◾When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
◾While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.

Land's Stride
Starting at 8th level, moving through non-magical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through non-magical plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard.

In addition, you have advantage on saving throws against plants that are magically created or manipulated to impede movement.

Natural Explorer
At 1st level, you gain the following benefits:
- Moving through nonmagical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement.
- You can pass through nonmagical plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns or similar hazards.
- You have advantage on saving throws against plants that are magically created or manipulated to impede movement, such as those created by the entangle spell.
- You remain alert to danger even while foraging, navigating or tracking



Primeval Awareness
Beginning at 3rd level, you can use your action and expend one ranger spell slot to focus your awareness on the region around you. For 1 minute per level of the spell slot you expend, you can sense whether the following types of creatures are present within 1 mile of you (or within up to 6 miles if you are in your favored terrain): aberrations, celestials, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. This feature doesn't reveal the creatures' location or number.

Primal Awareness
By concentrating for one minute, as if casting a spell, you can sense the presense of your favored enemies.
This feature reveals which of your favored enemies are present, their number, and the creatures’ general direction and distance up to one mile away from you. If there are multiple groups of your favored enemies within range, you learn this information for each group.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.



Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt. plants. soot. and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.

Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.

I replace HiPS and Camouflage entirely. They are too little, too late to the stealth game.

And I do lots of other changes along the way too.

[Damon_Tor]

I wouldn't touch it's features. I'd add spells.

The added spells would be a few categories. One would be bonus action or reaction spells which would include a weapon attack with a minor bonus effect. Others would be powerful buff spells which only target beasts, acting as buffs for the beastmaster specifically.

[Kane0]

I wouldn't touch it's features. I'd add spells.

The added spells would be a few categories. One would be bonus action or reaction spells which would include a weapon attack with a minor bonus effect. Others would be powerful buff spells which only target beasts, acting as buffs for the beastmaster specifically.

That would squeeze an already limited resource even more, plus allow for bard shenanigans if you make these spells off the curve.

[Yakmala]

Get rid of Ranger spells altogether.

Replace them with a series of nature, beast, scouting, tracking, archery and other Ranger related abilities and spell-like effects that you choose from as you level up.

Think of them like Warlock invocations with a Ranger flavor. Some have level or sub-class prerequisites. Minor abilities would be at-will while other more powerful ones might have limited uses per short/long rest.

Since we are avoiding spells, these become one of the core ways we define our Ranger. Start with two at level two and then gain one every even numbered level.

Some signature Ranger spells would be rolled into the system, Like Hunter's Mark and Swift Quiver. As these are no longer spells, you no longer have Bards getting these signature abilities before the Rangers they were designed for.

Anyway, just an idea off the top of my head after reading this thread.. I'd have to take a few hours to really flesh it out.

[stoutstien]

Giving phb rangers extended spell list and turn them into prepared spell casters vs memorized.
This alone wouldn't fix the weaker class features but is easy to implement

[Sindeloke]

For Primeval Awareness, a take:

It extends your awareness into the surrounding environment like an additional sense, giving you a "feel" of all the plants/animals/terrain/whatever. It sort of functions like a Hawk Totem barbarian's enhanced vision in that you're still making Perception checks to notice things that aren't blatantly obvious, but you're able to do so even if those things are very far away or behind the cover of the forest or over the edge of a cliff etc etc. So it'd let you instantly see the river over the next ridge, and you could make a DC 15 roll to notice that the stand of willows on the other side is a dryad grove. Useful in dense or rolling land, or storms or night time, when you don't have line of sight; allows you to attempt to track a creature in an extraordinary way without being an auto-success; gives you a nature-y vibe like a spider's web sense feature but it's the ~Web of Life~ instead.

[R.Shackleford]

Primeval Awareness should be replaced with Danger Sense and call it a day.

Perhaps give it a buff when in a Favored Terrain by not beeding to see the cause of the dex save.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd give beastmaster and hunter the bonus spells prepared like the Gloom Stalker, etc.

That is all. (At the moment).

[Foxhound438]

I feel like the revised ranger (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf) is the closest thing to a proper fix we'll ever get to the class features themselves, but...


I wouldn't touch it's features. I'd add spells.

The added spells would be a few categories. One would be bonus action or reaction spells which would include a weapon attack with a minor bonus effect. Others would be powerful buff spells which only target beasts, acting as buffs for the beastmaster specifically.

... this would be a much better way to go. Xan's guide added a few spells to the ranger list that makes spellcasting worthwhile, and having a few ribbon features along the way doesn't scare me if we can get more spells that actually do things that you want to be doing, like healing spirit or guardian of nature, etc. I don't necessarily agree with your suggested categories as presented since you can probably justify putting a lot more types of effects on a ranger in thematically appropriate ways, but still, spells will probably eventually make up for the class's ribbon density.


That would squeeze an already limited resource even more, plus allow for bard shenanigans if you make these spells off the curve.

Disagree. the resource is limited, but you have so little to do with slots above L1 with PHB spells anyways. Things like plant growth come in handy once in a while, but unlike paladins who get guaranteed combat value at every gained spell slot, rangers have spell levels that are in virtual drought of actively useful options. For example, your L3's: Sure, protection from energy comes in handy once in a while, and plant growth has niche uses, but there's not much else in PHB at the L3 slot level that's great. Conjure animals at character level 9 is way too far behind curve to really be worth casting rather than attacking with a hunter's mark, conjure barrage and lightning arrow are just bad in terms of the damage you get for the slot in the first place, and the rest is super niche. You don't need to have out of curve spells to make ranger casting be attractive, you just need spells that do something useful in terms of what rangers want to be doing. You could make a million spells that would make the ranger more attractive without doing anything drastic to bards.

[TyGuy]

Not mentioned, but I really didn't like the learned spells instead of prepared like druid, cleric, paladin. Helped that I played a XGtE sub with expanded spells. Can't imagine how lame it is without that.

[Kane0]

Disagree. the resource is limited, but you have so little to do with slots above L1 with PHB spells anyways. Things like plant growth come in handy once in a while, but unlike paladins who get guaranteed combat value at every gained spell slot, rangers have spell levels that are in virtual drought of actively useful options. For example, your L3's: Sure, protection from energy comes in handy once in a while, and plant growth has niche uses, but there's not much else in PHB at the L3 slot level that's great. Conjure animals at character level 9 is way too far behind curve to really be worth casting rather than attacking with a hunter's mark, conjure barrage and lightning arrow are just bad in terms of the damage you get for the slot in the first place, and the rest is super niche. You don't need to have out of curve spells to make ranger casting be attractive, you just need spells that do something useful in terms of what rangers want to be doing. You could make a million spells that would make the ranger more attractive without doing anything drastic to bards.

I'm half asleep right now but I parsed that as 'Ranger spells are mostly under the curve', which I agree with. Sorry if that's not what you meant, but yeah i'd agree to 'fix existing ranger spells before making good new ones'

[Nidgit]

Hot Take: there's nothing really wrong with Land's Stride. Sure, it's a bit late and not very strong, but it's also coming in alongside your Level 8 ASI. Most classes only get an extra spell slot at most then! If you really want to buff it, add in the ability to negate difficult terrain, including magical terrain, for yourself or an ally as a reaction by using your experience to guide them to the most efficient path.

Almost all of the Ranger's high level abilities need buffs. Vanish is so late it's comical and should be rolled in with Hide in Plain Sight. Hide as a bonus action, and advantage on Stealth checks while in your favored terrains. If favored terrain is being obsoleted, make it a +5 bonus to Stealth when you Hide as an action.

Replacing Vanish with a stronger combat ability would be wise. Nothing specific comes to mind right now, but maybe something like a slightly better version of the front-loaded Revised Ranger's early abilities would be good, just to spread them out.

[Damon_Tor]

That would squeeze an already limited resource even more, plus allow for bard shenanigans if you make these spells off the curve.

I dunno man, my rangers always wind up turning at least half of their spell slots into goodberries at the end of the day unless I drew the short straw and have to be the actual heal-bot. And honestly, I'm having a hard time imagining how a bard having access to bonus action attacks at level 10 at the cost of spell slots is going to break anything.

[R.Shackleford]

Hot Take: there's nothing really wrong with Land's Stride. Sure, it's a bit late and not very strong, but it's also coming in alongside your Level 8 ASI. Most classes only get an extra spell slot at most then! If you really want to buff it, add in the ability to negate difficult terrain, including magical terrain, for yourself or an ally as a reaction by using your experience to guide them to the most efficient path.

Almost all of the Ranger's high level abilities need buffs. Vanish is so late it's comical and should be rolled in with Hide in Plain Sight. Hide as a bonus action, and advantage on Stealth checks while in your favored terrains. If favored terrain is being obsoleted, make it a +5 bonus to Stealth when you Hide as an action.

Replacing Vanish with a stronger combat ability would be wise. Nothing specific comes to mind right now, but maybe something like a slightly better version of the front-loaded Revised Ranger's early abilities would be good, just to spread them out.

I just want to say, an extra spell slot is vastly superior to land's stride. Land's Stride is about on part with a first level spell (it's no freedom of movement) but not a first level slot as the slot is way more versatile.

[Jerrykhor]

All the features from Hide in Plain Sight onwards are just terrible. One can't be blamed for seeking elsewhere to improve their damage output, when the monsters HP keep inflating, but the Rangers damage stay the same. On top of that, they get absolutely rubbish features like Vanish, which is basically 1/3 of Cunning Action, a level 2 feature that the Ranger get at level 14. And who didn't laugh when they read the 2nd sentence of Vanish? If you are dealing with non-magical stuff at Tier 3 play, its really not worth your time or attention.

[R.Shackleford]

All the features from Hide in Plain Sight onwards are just terrible. One can't be blamed for seeking elsewhere to improve their damage output, when the monsters HP keep inflating, but the Rangers damage stay the same. On top of that, they get absolutely rubbish features like Vanish, which is basically 1/3 of Cunning Action, a level 2 feature that the Ranger get at level 14. And who didn't laugh when they read the 2nd sentence of Vanish? If you are dealing with non-magical stuff at Tier 3 play, its really not worth your time or attention.

It's stuff like the Ranger that gives legitimacy to the notion the 5e was rushed/ill managed.

I know the long playtest but what 5e is, so many things got dropped.

[Vogie]

The way I'd fix it is by updating the mechanics to modern ones.

My Further Revised Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582686-The-Ranger-Further-Revised-(PEACH))

Basically, when I tackled it, I used the Paladin and Warlock classes as a model.

My ranger has a "lay on hands" style utility ability that replaces Natural explorer and Primeval Awareness, and the Hunter's Mark spell is replaced with a class feature. You have the option to shuck spellcasting to be a shapeshifter or use battlemaster maneuvers using the "Pact Boon" model. They're not as effective as a moon druid or a Battlemaster fighter, but uses the same language.

[Arkhios]

I can't keep up with all the different revisions of Ranger, from unofficial to UA and back, but here's a few things I'd change first and foremost:

Hunter's Mark as a class feature with short rest dependency. Essentially, making it the Favored Enemy for 5th edition ranger (without calling it that).

For Beast Companion, I'd keep it mostly as it is in the light of the latest errata, but I'd bump its maximim hit points up a little. Say, 5 × ranger level instead.

[Yora]

I ended up using the nuclear option:

My wilderness setting does not have any rangers.

Rangers are a really weird class in all editions, and almost always considered to be somewhat bad. I think this is to a great deal because there's no real concept of what a ranger really should be and do. "A warrior with nature skills" sounds good, but it doesn't really say anything about what that means in play.

What is a ranger? You could say it is a scout. And then many designers very appropriately said, that a scout would best be a rogue with tracking anf foraging skills.

I think ranger might not actually be a viable class concept.

[TheUser]

Played it as a fighter subclass; loved it.

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJWcMSZad4

[clash]

Natural Explorer
Gain expertise in Survival and one of the following: Stealth, Animal Handling, Athletics

Primeval Awareness
Give direction and numbers, also wis mod times per day.

Land's Stride
All difficult terrain

Hide In Plain Sight
You can hide while only lightly in a natural environment. Additionally you can hide as a bonus action.

Vanish -> Untraceable
You cant be tracked by magical means and can’t be targeted by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors.

[Man_Over_Game]

Played it as a fighter subclass; loved it.

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJWcMSZad4

The problem with this, and other "Make the class a subclass" is that you erase a lot of content by doing so.

Not only do you remove Ranger spells (as there is no subclass-specific spell list), but you remove 5 subclasses by gaining one. The goal should be to make the 5 Ranger subclasses playable, not "refine" them so there's only one left.

[Man_Over_Game]

I can't keep up with all the different revisions of Ranger, from unofficial to UA and back, but here's a few things I'd change first and foremost:

Hunter's Mark as a class feature with short rest dependency. Essentially, making it the Favored Enemy for 5th edition ranger (without calling it that).

For Beast Companion, I'd keep it mostly as it is in the light of the latest errata, but I'd bump its maximim hit points up a little. Say, 5 × ranger level instead.

There are 3, but people only consider 2:

Standard Ranger (Bad)
Revision 1 Ranger (Goes up to level 5, doesn't use magic, is never considered)
Revision 2 Ranger (Changes Beastmaster, is overpowered, and is very front loaded so that a dip would be very powerful)

[Man_Over_Game]

There are a few things that need to be fixed in order for the Ranger to feel..."right" in my mind:


Scaling, to have players consider leveling past level 6 or so.
Using Terrain features as a tactical choice, not a binary (Yes/No) choice
Some kind of combat gain to make them more consistent with other classes.



Now, I believe the Ranger is much better designed for exploring than the Fighter, so the Fighter should always be a better combatant, but the Ranger is still a bit undertuned.


A few changes I've considered:

Level 1: Favored Enemy (Keeping all normal Favored Enemy features): When you attack a Favored Enemy, you can choose to grant yourself Advantage on the attack. If the attack hits, you deal bonus damage equal to your Ranger level. You can only use this feature once every Short Rest or Long Rest.

Level 2: Favored Terrain (Replacing the benefits of Favored Terrain): While in your Favored Terrain, you get these benefits:

3/4 Cover is considered Full Cover.
1/2 Cover is considered 3/4 Cover.
If you have Advantage on Perception and Survival checks.
You can Hide as a Bonus Action if you spend all of your movement.
Creatures who attempt to detect you while you're in your Favored Terrain have Disadvantage on their Perception Checks to do so.

Also, you have advantage on any rolls related to gaining knowledge about creatures and terrain native to your Favored Terrain choices. At the start of an ally's turn, you can provide your Favored Terrain benefits to them by spending your Reaction as long as you can both see each other.


Level 8: Land's Stride (Using the default Land Stride): You can spend your Bonus Action to allow this feature to work on all Difficult Terrain until the end of your turn.

Level 10: Stalker(Replacing the existing feature): If you spend your Action to Hide, you can spend your Bonus Action to become invisible until the end of your next turn.

Level 14: Vanish (Replacing the existing feature): Choose between Nondetection or Pass Without Trace when you gain this feature. You can cast your chosen spell without requiring components or spending a spell slot once every Long Rest. You can change your choice for this feature whenever you gain a Ranger level.
Also, you can't be tracked by non-magical means, unless you choose to leave a trail.

-------------

I think these changes would be enough to have Rangers see a lot more play, while also being relatively in-line with other classes. The Ranger would still be a bit of a niche pick, but would be able to provide tactical advantages when dealing with their niche. They'd be like a Rogue, but one that supports the team as a guide rather than a loner trying to deal Sneak Attack damage.

[stoutstien]

There are a few things that need to be fixed in order for the Ranger to feel..."right" in my mind:


Scaling, to have players consider leveling past level 6 or so.
Using Terrain features as a tactical choice, not a binary (Yes/No) choice
Some kind of combat gain to make them more consistent with other classes.



Now, I believe the Ranger is much better designed for exploring than the Fighter, so the Fighter should always be a better combatant, but the Ranger is still a bit undertuned.


A few changes I've considered:

Level 1: Favored Enemy (Keeping all normal Favored Enemy features): When you attack a Favored Enemy, you can choose to grant yourself Advantage on the attack. If the attack hits, you deal bonus damage equal to your Ranger level. You can only use this feature once every Short Rest or Long Rest.

Level 2: Favored Terrain (Replacing the benefits of Favored Terrain): While in your Favored Terrain, you get these benefits:

3/4 Cover is considered Full Cover.
1/2 Cover is considered 3/4 Cover.
You cannot suffer Disadvantage on Perception and Survival Checks for any reason.
You have advantage to track things.
You can Hide as a Bonus Action if you spend all of your movement.

Also, you have advantage on any rolls related to gaining knowledge about creatures and terrain native to your Favored Terrain choices. At the start of an ally's turn, you can provide your Favored Terrain benefits to them by spending your Reaction as long as you can both see each other.

Level 8: Land's Stride (Using the default Land Stride): You can spend your Bonus Action to allow this feature to work on all Difficult Terrain until the end of your turn.

Level 10: Hide In Plain Sight (Replacing the existing feature): You can spend your Bonus Action to hide if you spend all of your movement to do so. Creatures who attempt to detect you while you're in your Favored Terrain have Disadvantage on their Perception Checks to do so.
If you, or an ally you can see, makes an attack against a Surprised creature while in your Favored Terrain, that attack is made with Advantage.

Level 14: Vanish (Replacing the existing feature): Choose between Nondetection or Pass Without Trace when you gain this feature. You can cast your chosen spell without requiring components or spending a spell slot once every Long Rest. You can change your choice for this feature whenever you gain a Ranger level.
Also, you can't be tracked by non-magical means, unless you choose to leave a trail.

-------------

I think these changes would be enough to have Rangers see a lot more play, while also being relatively in-line with other classes. The Ranger would still be a bit of a niche pick, but would be able to provide tactical advantages when dealing with their niche. They'd be like a Rogue, but one that supports the team as a guide rather than a loner trying to deal Sneak Attack damage.

I like this direction. Why not just put hide in plain sight in favorite terrain to free up the lv 10 class feature for something more apt for moving into tier 3? Maybe a form of invisibility while moving from cover to cover

[Man_Over_Game]

I like this direction. Why not just put hide in plain sight in favorite terrain to free up the lv 10 class feature for something more apt for moving into tier 3? Maybe a form of invisibility while moving from cover to cover

Not a bad idea. I made some revisions with your suggestion in mind. At this point, though, it's risking becoming too much, so I made the level 10 feature Cool, but hard to abuse.

[MagneticKitty]

The way I'd fix it is by updating the mechanics to modern ones.

My Further Revised Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582686-The-Ranger-Further-Revised-(PEACH))

Basically, when I tackled it, I used the Paladin and Warlock classes as a model.

My ranger has a "lay on hands" style utility ability that replaces Natural explorer and Primeval Awareness, and the Hunter's Mark spell is replaced with a class feature. You have the option to shuck spellcasting to be a shapeshifter or use battlemaster maneuvers using the "Pact Boon" model. They're not as effective as a moon druid or a Battlemaster fighter, but uses the same language.


From your thread: Umbra Mantle
You gain the ability to Wild shape, as a Moon Druid does. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). You regain expended uses when you finish a long rest.



I was gonna post on your thread, but I didn't want to necro it.

I don't think this ability is ok..
1 we don't establish if your time in transform goes up
2 you can wild shape more times than the class it belongs to
3 moon is too powerful, but base wildshape might be ok..

[Nidgit]

Spending all of your movement to Hide is a neat idea that carries the spirit of Hide in Plain Sight, but a lot of DMs rule that you can't hide in the same location consecutively after you reveal yourself once. I could see some conflict there.

I remember Mearls talking about folding Hunter's Mark in to the basic Ranger chassis as a way of freeing up many of the Ranger's other spells. I was thinking something like:

Attune Senses: Level 2: Activate as a bonus action on a creature you can see, lasts for an hour, same tracking benefits as Hunter's Mark. Does a d4 instead of d6 and you can sense your foe's location to within 100 feet as long as it's within 5 miles of you and not magically concealed.

Level 10: Improve damage die to a d8, improve sensing to 50 miles, improve duration 8 hours.

Level 18: Improve damage die to d12, improve sensing to anywhere on the Material Plane, improve duration to 24 hours.

You could cast Hunter's Mark too but the concentration and redundancy should turn players off of it to a degree, freeing up space for the Ranger's other concentration spells.

[Keravath]

Some ideas? :)

Natural Explorer:
* survival skill - expertise if you already have survival
* choose favored terrain (again at 6th and 10th)
- advantage on checks to maintain direction
- difficult terrain doesn't slow your party down
- remain alert to danger
- foraging finds extra food
- additional tracking information

Primeval Awareness:
- reveal rough direction and "power" (DM discretion)
[just reveling presence within such a large area makes the ability essentially useless]

Lands Stride:
+10' movement in favored terrain
- unaffected by non-magical difficult terrain

Hide in Plain Sight
- bonus action hide (moved from level 14 vanish)
[I'm not sure that the Hide in Plain Sight ability has any real use especially when most of it can be replicated with pass without trace granting a +10 to stealth checks]

Vanish
- at will casting of 2nd level invisibility on self when in favored terrain

[Vogie]

I was gonna post on your thread, but I didn't want to necro it.

I don't think this ability is ok..
1 we don't establish if your time in transform goes up
2 you can wild shape more times than the class it belongs to
3 moon is too powerful, but base wildshape might be ok..

You can, potentially, wild shape more times if a druid never gets any rests, because a Moon Druid gets 2x uses per short or long rest, vs the incredibly rare 20 Wisdom ranger who would get 5/Long rest. I can't help it if the party isn't using the 2SR per LR

You are correct that the time in wild shape is missing, so I'll add that in - It'll just be 1 hour/ use.

Base wildshape is too weak in comparison to half-casting capability - Combat WS on a ranger isn't too powerful, as you're missing all of the other Moon Druid capabilities, such as self-healing, elemental forms, or bypassing magical resistance early on. I did notice I missed that latter part as well, which would turn on at 10th level.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would also go back to the play test / revised ranger and grant +2 damage to favored enemy. (And for that matter, + Proficiency bonus).

The original Ranger had a damage bonus against certain enemies.

@Yora: it's an iconic sub class of fighter, been with the game since Strategic Review number 2, which got formalized in the AD&D 1e PHB in 1978. Yeah, it's viable as a class, but its' strengths are in campaigns with a combination of outdoors and indooors adventures.

[GlenSmash!]

A rogue subclass would never satisfy my Ranger needs. A fighter would cover a lot for my personal taste, but leave too much out for what I consider the archetype/trope to be.

My ranger needs to cover Aragorn, Drizzt, Geralt of Rivia, Riverwind, Fitz, and Halt among others.

They might have spells. They might have an animal companions. They might be skill specialist, Some are combat specialists. They have varied choices of weapons, strength or dex based. Some specialize in killing a particular kind of creature or Monsters in general. Most favor or at least benefit from an ambush style of fighting. They are all good at sneaking. They all are excellent trackers/explorers.

The PHB ranger actually covers all of these concepts well for me if I re-fluff spell-casting as wilderness know-how in some cases.

The problem for me is that it doesn't do it good enough job of making them... well good.

I like a lot of suggestions here, especially conclave spells for all and getting rid of the Hunter's Mark spell tax, and my thoughts before reading the thread were to take Revised Ranger and split up it's version of Natural Explorer so you don't get it all at level 1.

[MilkmanDanimal]

The same way you fix a crippled phoenix.

Release it with a heavy sigh, and wait a few years for Marvel to reboot it entirely?

[GlenSmash!]

Release it with a heavy sigh, and wait a few years for Marvel to reboot it entirely?

Spot on assessment.

[Zuras]

What exactly is the problem with the Ranger that needs to be fixed?

After 5th level only the subclass features are interesting. All the higher level base ranger features are either pointless fluff or annoying to the DM because they eliminate exploration pillar drama without anything interesting occurring. When the Bard bypasses an encounter by talking their way past the guards, an encounter still occurs. When a Ranger’s Natural Explorer helps the party evade wandering monsters or find the right place to easily Ford a river, no encounter happens at all.

In my experience, Rangers are perfectly playable through 11th level for all subclasses besides Beast Master. The rangers I have seen in actual play (granted, mostly Hunters and Gloom Stalkers) were major contributors and among the strongest PCs in the party. Granted, they were played by experienced players, but I’ve seen many more problems where players wanted to quit a class with Monks and Sorcerers than Rangers.

Levels 12-20 look boring and bad on paper, and all the Rangers I’ve seen multiclassed by then, but the class provides everything you need to be a stealthy ranged striker with a side of nature exploration abilities at the normal levels of a campaign.

[strangebloke]

Primeval Awareness and Land's Stride are fine. They're ribbons at levels where the Ranger gets other benefits. Totally A-okay.

Level 1 does suck for the ranger, but its just level 1 and they're better off than the paladin. I don't see natural explorer as needing a fix any more than favored enemy does.

Hide in Plain Sight and Vanish are the offenders, IMO.

I would change HiPS completely, making it:

"You can camouflage yourself in natural environments. Over ten minutes you can use natural pieces of the environment like mud, bits of twig, and leaves to blend in with certain terrain featuers like a riverbed, or cliff, or a tree. While next to the terrain feature, you are lightly obscured. If you would be lightly obscured while next to the terrain feature, you are now heavily obscured. Additionally, you can hide as a bonus action."

Say hello to skulker feat or mask of the wild.

Then you'd need some other high-level ability.

[PopeLinus1]

I would move spell-casting to a subclass, include a subclass with stealth bonuses, than shift the core features of it to what it was in it's 4th edition glory~ A martial fighter that has an insane amount of attacks per turn.

As a larger bit of this, I think it would help to reduce the amount of attacks fighters get, and instead incorporate some of the battle-master's moves to be for all fighters.

This gives the (typically)non-magic damage dealers a nice balance I think, with Barbarians fighting the strongest, Rangers fighting the quickest, rogues fighting the smartest, and the Fighters being generalists.

[Rukelnikov]

There are 3, but people only consider 2:

Standard Ranger (Bad)
Revision 1 Ranger (Goes up to level 5, doesn't use magic, is never considered)
Revision 2 Ranger (Changes Beastmaster, is overpowered, and is very front loaded so that a dip would be very powerful)

There's alse the spell-less Ranger as a 20 lvl variant: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes

That one is different from revision 1, which, as you said, is never taken into account.

Regarding the topic in general, at our table in the 3 campaigns we played there has been a ranger. First one we used PHB, near the end of it we switched, and the improvement in feel was evident. PHB's Favored Enemy is almost trolling the player, you gain no combat advantage against a type of creature you have specialized in fighting, and many of its other features feel like they don't come into play often and/or are underwhelming.

One thing I get from this thread, and which I think its a somewhat valid point is the lack of identity the Ranger has. Historically dnd Ranger's schtick has been, "Good at fighting a certain group of creatures", "Having a pet", "Good at exploring/navigating wilderness", "Unparalleled tracker". IMO Favored Enemy should be the defining characteristic of the Ranger, like Paladin's Smite Evil (or Auras) and Druid's Wild Shape.

So, going over what I consider to be these points:

Favored Enemy:

Revised Ranger makes FE relevant once again, albeit maybe not in the most interesting/elegant of ways. In the PHB ranger, I'd actually roll Foe Slayer (the 20th lvl feature) into favored enemy, +Wis to attack or damage roll once a turn against your specialized group of enemies, is in line with ranger fluff, and in line mechanically too, since, even with a +3 in Wisdom, a lvl 1 rogue is still adding more damage if it can apply sneak attack, and the clausule to get to add that is broader than the FE one.

Having a Pet:

I think putting this into a subclass was the right call, since many will not want to have one, and it would detract from other features of the class, from the 2 version this sub has, Revised is the better done one (I think there's a lot of concensus in this).

Exploration:

PHB Natural Explorer gives some pretty strong bonuses, and the "you cannot become lost" seems kind of not in line with the rest of the system, and that could maybe get in the way of fun sometimes. As other pointed out, it also means a ranger is as good at navigating his favored terrain at lvl 1 as he is at lvl 20. This could be changed to reliable talent in checks to avoid getting lost in your favored terrain, this means a survival check would have a minimum of 15 + Wis (assuming you have proficiency), same spirit, better mechanic.

Revised adds 3 powerful combat improvements which make it extremely frontloaded, "You ignore difficult terrain". Period. No matter what, you don't care, I can only picture this as all rangers from lvl 1 being kind of Spidey lvl acrobats or something. If this was limited to only your favored terrain, I wouldn't be that much against it, but as is, I can only explain it with god lvl skillz at lvl 1, this is what Land's Stride could grant, at 8th lvl "You ignore naturally ocurring difficult terrain" sounds fine IMO, and fixed two birds with a single stone.

Adv on initiative is good, but doesn't break my immersion, same with the advantage on attacks thing. Getting all at lvl 1 is not good, I would sparse these bonuses along the levels, roll them into subclasses, or just ignore them altogether.

I got bored about doing this breakdown though, so i'll just add PHB Hide in Plain Sight seems like another attempt to troll the player.

[thoroughlyS]

The ranger has been my favorite class since 5e came out, and I've kept an eye out for most of the discussions surrounding it. I've kept up with all (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA3_ClassDesignVariants.pdf) of (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DX_0907_UA_RangerOptions.pdf) the (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf) revisions (https://thinkdm.org/hfh/revised-ranger-2018/) Wizards of the Coast has put out, and done a fair bit of digging on this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492209-Minifixing-the-Ranger-A-humble-direct-approach) forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?462877-Ranger-Rework-v1-3) and on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/4cq6jq/consensus_ranger/). After doing so much reading, I finally sat down and hammered out my "perfect" ranger (https://drive.google.com/file/d/14KhbCFDeVeTDT8VdR1Bra5RzrHGjJggD/view?usp=sharing). My core design philosophy was to try to stick as closely as possible to the original concept Wizards of the Coast had, starting with the PHB ranger. I shuffled a couple of features around, and swapped in some of the more polished versions of features from the revised ranger. My biggest contributions were to add some impactful higher level features and some subclass spell lists.

I'd really appreciate any critical feedback, so long as it keeps my core philosophy in mind.

[Man_Over_Game]

What exactly is the problem with the Ranger that needs to be fixed?

After 5th level only the subclass features are interesting. All the higher level base ranger features are either pointless fluff or annoying to the DM because they eliminate exploration pillar drama without anything interesting occurring. When the Bard bypasses an encounter by talking their way past the guards, an encounter still occurs. When a Ranger’s Natural Explorer helps the party evade wandering monsters or find the right place to easily Ford a river, no encounter happens at all.

In my experience, Rangers are perfectly playable through 11th level for all subclasses besides Beast Master. The rangers I have seen in actual play (granted, mostly Hunters and Gloom Stalkers) were major contributors and among the strongest PCs in the party. Granted, they were played by experienced players, but I’ve seen many more problems where players wanted to quit a class with Monks and Sorcerers than Rangers.

Levels 12-20 look boring and bad on paper, and all the Rangers I’ve seen multiclassed by then, but the class provides everything you need to be a stealthy ranged striker with a side of nature exploration abilities at the normal levels of a campaign.

The same reason Sharpshooter is considered bad to play with. It removes content and strategy, not add to it. With a Ranger, no longer is foraging a concern you have to really manage. No longer is Difficult Terrain something you have to consider as part of a group's travel. Not only are those things niche, but they become nearly irrelevant with a single level into Ranger.

Most DMs I know would go from "Roll a Survival Check to hunt your own food" to "You guys have a Ranger, you guys found food". Most DM's/Parties don't really track exactly what kind of terrain they're considered to be in, or when Favored Terrain is relevant, so it often just gets overused, to the point where it doesn't matter what terrain you're in.

It goes from "Exploration is occasionally relevant" to "Exploration is automatically successful", which effectively becomes "Exploration is irrelevant". That's not inherently the intent of the Designers, but that's inevitably what happens. Adding a Ranger removes an entire pillar of gameplay from the game.

The other problem is that the Ranger's skill set is best used when separated from the party, when considering things like Hide in Plain Sight, and separating from the party leads to the Shadowrun silo-ing problem. Where 20% of the party is relevant and 80% are twiddling their thumbs, and comes out to wasting 80% of the table's time.

The Ranger's abilities are all very redundant, too. Sure, he can get Goodberries, but what's the point when you are excellent at gathering food anyway? Sure, you can ignore Difficult Terrain in your Favored Terrain, but can't you do that anyway with your level 8 feature? Now that Difficult Terrain is ignored, a lot of tactical challenge is removed from the battlefield, incentivizing the existing problems of DMs making featureless, boring battle maps with no tactical features. Many Ranger features require use of their Bonus Action, as does the TWF style that they can get that Paladins don't, and so do many of the Ranger-specific spells. How is a Ranger allowed to do multiple Ranger things when they're funneled by the Bonus Action?

I could see the default Ranger have a lot of value when traveling long distances on a map and determining the best possible routes, but most tables take a route out of necessity, not by choice. As a result, the Ranger never gets to adapt or choose when he's relevant. He gets to ignore problems only when the DM says he can, and the DM only puts those obstacles in place to give the Ranger a false sense of reward. You get your pat on the head by the DM to make you feel better, then your features are ignored until the DM feels bad for you again.

One of these problems is enough to deal with (For example, the Monk is also funneled by the Bonus Action), but all of them in one class ends up being a major hassle to play around.

[Yunru]

For the beastmaster all you need is:
To make commanding the pet to attack consume an attack, not an action.
To give the pet max health plus 4xRanger level.
To heal the pet by 2xRanger level each short rest.
Maybe allow large beasts.

This is because the only problems are that pets are too fragile, having too little health and no innate healing for their added health, and that you can't command your beast to attack and TWF, even after reaching level 5.

For the core Ranger chassis... IDK. Here's what one guy came up with: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?656047-Adaptive-Explorer-An-alternative-to-Natural-Explorer-for-1st-level-Rangers


Most DMs I know would go from "Roll a Survival Check to hunt your own food" to "You guys have a Ranger, you guys found food".Isn't there a background feature that does that too? Making it not even very uniquely "Ranger" either.

[stoutstien]

The same reason Sharpshooter is considered bad to play with. It removes content and strategy, not add to it. With a Ranger, no longer is foraging a concern you have to really manage. No longer is Difficult Terrain something you have to consider as part of a group's travel. Not only are those things niche, but they become nearly irrelevant with a single level into Ranger.

Most DMs I know would go from "Roll a Survival Check to hunt your own food" to "You guys have a Ranger, you guys found food". Most DM's/Parties don't really track exactly what kind of terrain they're considered to be in, or when Favored Terrain is relevant, so it often just gets overused, to the point where it doesn't matter what terrain you're in.

It goes from "Exploration is occasionally relevant" to "Exploration is automatically successful", which effectively becomes "Exploration is irrelevant". That's not inherently the intent of the Designers, but that's inevitably what happens. Adding a Ranger removes an entire pillar of gameplay from the game.

The other problem is that the Ranger's skill set is best used when separated from the party, when considering things like Hide in Plain Sight, and separating from the party leads to the Shadowrun silo-ing problem. Where 20% of the party is relevant and 80% are twiddling their thumbs, and comes out to wasting 80% of the table's time.

The Ranger's abilities are all very redundant, too. Sure, he can get Goodberries, but what's the point when you are excellent at gathering food anyway? Sure, you can ignore Difficult Terrain in your Favored Terrain, but can't you do that anyway with your level 8 feature? Now that Difficult Terrain is ignored, a lot of tactical challenge is removed from the battlefield, incentivizing the existing problems of DMs making featureless, boring battle maps with no tactical features.

I could see the default Ranger have a lot of value when traveling long distances on a map and determining the best possible routes, but most tables take a route out of necessity, not by choice. As a result, the Ranger never gets to adapt or choose when he's relevant. He gets to ignore problems only when the DM says he can, and the DM only puts those obstacles in place to give the Ranger a false sense of reward. You get your pat on the head by the DM to make you feel better, then your features are ignored until the DM feels bad for you again.

Pretty much this. I gave rangers the nickname of pageant queen for the amount of hand waving that can be caused by it. Rangers don't excel at being good with the whole outdoor thing, they just bypass it so it no longer a part of the game. Fun right

[Nidgit]

How game breaking would it be to give the ranger a second reaction, and at what level would this be appropriate? Rangers are meant to embody an adaptable warrior that's always ready for his enemy and I think this would be a cool and effective way to show that.

[Man_Over_Game]

For the beastmaster all you need is:
To make commanding the pet to attack consume an attack, not an action.
To give the pet max health plus 4xRanger level.
To heal the pet by 2xRanger level each short rest.
Maybe allow large beasts.

This is because the only problems are that pets are too fragile, having too little health and no innate healing for their added health, and that you can't command your beast to attack and TWF, even after reaching level 5.

For the core Ranger chassis... IDK. Here's what one guy came up with: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?656047-Adaptive-Explorer-An-alternative-to-Natural-Explorer-for-1st-level-Rangers

Isn't there a background feature that does that too? Making it not even very uniquely "Ranger" either.

Sure, but you can only pick your Background once. It's a permanent choice. Darkvision, permanent flying, advantage on 50% of all saving throws, those are all very powerful things that require you to make a hard, one time choice.

On the flipside, though, Ranger gets a lot of his "problem" features at level 1, and doesn't do much better as he levels up, which requires a greater and greater investment.

Or, put another way, while the Outlander is a powerful background choice, a Fighter can perform well at later levels, attacking 3+ times per turn, gaining twice as many feats as anyone else, and that's before considering subclass bonuses. A Ranger won't ever be much more than anyone with the Outlander Background, for the majority of his adventuring career.

[clash]

The ranger has been my favorite class since 5e came out, and I've kept an eye out for most of the discussions surrounding it. I've kept up with all (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA3_ClassDesignVariants.pdf) of (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DX_0907_UA_RangerOptions.pdf) the (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf) revisions (https://thinkdm.org/hfh/revised-ranger-2018/) Wizards of the Coast has put out, and done a fair bit of digging on this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492209-Minifixing-the-Ranger-A-humble-direct-approach) forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?462877-Ranger-Rework-v1-3) and on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/4cq6jq/consensus_ranger/). After doing so much reading, I finally sat down and hammered out my "perfect" ranger (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wl-04CAKFTai0I-GQzCvWXkt54g5Fp1M). My core design philosophy was to try to stick as closely as possible to the original concept Wizards of the Coast had, starting with the PHB ranger. I shuffled a couple of features around, and swapped in some of the more polished versions of features from the revised ranger. My biggest contributions were to add some impactful higher level features and some subclass spell lists.

I'd really appreciate any critical feedback, so long as it keeps my core philosophy in mind.

I like most of what I see here. A couple things:

Still dont like Hide in Plain Sight. It doesnt do what is advertised which should be letting you hide without heavy obscurement.

Not sure about Rugged Endurance. I like the extra hp on the hit die recovery but it seems like too much. Being able to recover all levels of exhaustion seems fine at this level but I might tie it specifically to a long rest.

Master Assailant looks fun but I would break the hidden condition if you attack the creature.

The bonus hunter spells seem odd. I would definitely include hunters mark in the list.

Also as an alternative to whirlwind attack + movement, I have used this instead:

Path Of Blood:
As an action you can move up to 20ft in a straight line and make a single melee attack against every creature within range during your movement.

The rest looks great in my opinion

[strangebloke]

Sure, but you can only pick your Background once. It's a permanent choice. Darkvision, permanent flying, advantage on 50% of all saving throws, those are all very powerful things that require you to make a hard, one time choice.

On the flipside, though, Ranger gets a lot of his "problem" features at level 1, and doesn't do much better as he levels up, which requires a greater and greater investment.

Or, put another way, while the Outlander is a powerful background choice, a Fighter can perform well at later levels, attacking 3+ times per turn, gaining twice as many feats as anyone else, and that's before considering subclass bonuses. A Ranger won't ever be much more than anyone with the Outlander Background, for the majority of his adventuring career.

I think you're massively overestimating the significance of Natural Explorer.

It's a ribbon. For comparison's sake, its equivalent to the paladin's divine sense. Occasionally useful, but not intended to scale or to really do anything other than be flavorful. Admittedly, the "fast forward" mechanics are pretty lame. I would much prefer if it removed the 'fast forward' stuff and just kept the expertise and tracking bit of the feature.

Yes, the Ranger overall is pretty weak at level 1, but I don't think that strength at level one is something really worth wasting too much thought on. Campaigns spend less than 1% of their time at that level. Paladins are pretty weak at level 1 as well but I don't see anyone complaining about them.

I really don't think there's any problem with the ranger class until level 6 when the rangers get a worse version of their crappy level 1 feature. My fix there would just be to give them an ASI there, or to give them a special bonus like "hunter's mark no longer takes a bonus action to cast or move."

[Man_Over_Game]

I think you're massively overestimating the significance of Natural Explorer.

It's a ribbon. For comparison's sake, its equivalent to the paladin's divine sense. Occasionally useful, but not intended to scale or to really do anything other than be flavorful. Admittedly, the "fast forward" mechanics are pretty lame. I would much prefer if it removed the 'fast forward' stuff and just kept the expertise and tracking bit of the feature.

Yes, the Ranger overall is pretty weak at level 1, but I don't think that strength at level one is something really worth wasting too much thought on. Campaigns spend less than 1% of their time at that level. Paladins are pretty weak at level 1 as well but I don't see anyone complaining about them.

I really don't think there's any problem with the ranger class until level 6 when the rangers get a worse version of their crappy level 1 feature. My fix there would just be to give them an ASI there, or to give them a special bonus like "hunter's mark no longer takes a bonus action to cast or move."

The Paladin, on the other hand, gets Divine Smite, Heavy Armor, Find Steed, Bless.

If you took away the Ranger's exploration features, what would be left? Would it even be enough to justify its own class? Exploration is built into the core of the class, and without it, it'd just be some weird Fighter/Rogue hybrid with no identity.

We HAVE to assume the exploration aspects are important, otherwise the Ranger is nothing. Ironically, Exploration gets worse the more Ranger you have.

[some guy]

Natural Explorer
Gain expertise in Survival and one of the following: Stealth, Animal Handling, Athletics

Primeval Awareness
Give direction and numbers, also wis mod times per day.

Land's Stride
All difficult terrain

Hide In Plain Sight
You can hide while only lightly in a natural environment. Additionally you can hide as a bonus action.

Vanish -> Untraceable
You cant be tracked by magical means and can’t be targeted by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors.

I like these fixes. Some redundancy would occur in the case with Wood Elf rangers and Hide in Plain Sight, I would be alright with letting them hide in any natural enviroment without any obscurement requirences. I would also remove Favored Enemy (like Natural Explorer, I don't like it's fiddly bonuses that are easily forgotten because they're not always 'on') and add bonus spells (like a paladin has).

[Frozenstep]

It doesn't fix ranger, but I'm trying something with my new campaign I'm dming.

Basically, long rests do not recover hp. Instead, you must spend hit dice, then get half back as usual, then spend more hit dice, up until you are at max HP. However, if a character eats 1 pound of fresh food as part of the long rest, they'll recover the maximum amount from each hit dice instead of rolling.

The fresh food has to be pretty good quality to count, and becomes normal food after 24 hours. It's not always available in towns or cities, and goodberry/create food and water spells don't cut it (heroes' feast and magnificent mansion do, however). However, you can roll survival to find it, with varying results based on the roll (I have a table for it). You can only try twice in a single area within 24 hours, and each attempt takes an hour (so two people could try at once to speed things up). For each attempt, players also have to roll a 1d20, with an encounter following them back (or other bad events) happening on certain rolls depending on how dangerous the region is (still working things out).

Now, on to the actual ranger stuff, rangers have advantage on the check in favored terrain, and can roll stealth/perception and end up seeing whatever might have happened if they weren't such an alert hunter, and potentially turn the bad event into something that could be advantageous.

[Puh Laden]

I fix natural explorer by having adventures that involve exploring at least two terrain types (one of which is the ranger's). That way, the party sometimes benefits from it and sometimes don't -- making them relieved when they get down from the mountaintops and back to the elf ranger's favored forests (or when they leave the forest and return to the dwarf ranger's favored mountains, etc.) This also means that the ranger's skill proficiencies that would be helpful in avoiding getting lost get used in the unfavored terrain.

Admittedly, this fix is not suitable for every adventure like a mega-dungeon or one-shot dungeon or an entirely urban adventure.

I already almost always use nonmagical difficult terrain in my combats to help create zones, so land's stride is already decent.

Primeval awareness is the hardest one for me. I'm not even sure what its intended use is except to play "minesweeper" with a big bad in a hidden lair somewhere.

[Garfunion]

My 2 cents, would be to remove the ranger entirely.
Any ranger specific spells and archetypes will be absorbed by other classes. The ranger class itself can become a Druid archetype with an expanded spell list, similar to the wizard’s bladesinging archetype.

Don’t mind me, I’m also planning on doing the same thing to the Bard class in my games.

[strangebloke]

The Paladin, on the other hand, gets Divine Smite, Heavy Armor, Find Steed, Bless.

If you took away the Ranger's exploration features, what would be left? Would it even be enough to justify its own class? Exploration is built into the core of the class, and without it, it'd just be some weird Fighter/Rogue hybrid with no identity.

We HAVE to assume the exploration aspects are important, otherwise the Ranger is nothing. Ironically, Exploration gets worse the more Ranger you have.

See, the bolded part is what I don't get. The ranger has a lot that makes it stand out.


They're the only martial-esque character who can deal with hordes efficiently, thanks to Lightning Arrow, Hail of Thorns, and Conjure Animals. This thematically ties back to them being loners and guardians of the wilds. Much like its easy to imagine paladin leading a force to kill a powerful demon, its also easy to imagine a ranger picking apart an entire goblin camp single-handedly.
They're a half-caster, but mostly focused on out-of-combat utility. In fact, even a ranger without Natural Explorer would still be a godsend in a wilderness campaign with a lot of random encounters, purely because of spells like pass without trace, goodberry, hunter's mark, fogcloud, and healing spirit. This fits with the thematic notion of them being a self-sufficient woodlands dweller.
They get a lot more from their subclasses than most classes do, both in terms of flavor and in terms of mechanics. In this respect they're a lot like clerics. For example, nearly every ranger subclass grants the ranger a conditional third attack (a huge power boost!) that incentivizes a unique style of play.


Also, why would it be a rogue/fighter hybrid? Its clearly a druid/fighter hybrid, if anything. The Exploration bonuses and the one extra proficiency are the only 'rogue-like' bonus that they have, and exploration clearly becomes a non-challenge anyway by tier 3 at the very latest.

Anyway, all that said, I do think that the class has serious problems. I think that they have several really bad levels that make multiclassing really desirable. It's hard to imagine not switching out of ranger after level five, for example, because level six is so bad. So yeah, here's my fix:

Level 1
Favored Enemy: (stays as-is)
Natural Explorer: retains expertise-lite, retains the tracking a large group ability, loses everything else. (the fast-forward effect)
Hunter's Mark: The spell, hunter's mark, but it doesn't require concentration and doesn't eat a spell slot. Throw it on a monster and it stays on until you take a short or long rest, you designate a new target, or that monster is dead.
Level 6:
+1 Favored Enemy and Terrain
Vanish: (unchanged)
Level 10:
Hide in Plain Sight: Same flavor text, same setup time. Different effect "Once you are camouflaged in this way, for as long as you remain in the natural environment this camouflage was prepared for, you are lightly obscured to all creatures further than ten feet away from you, or heavily obscured from creatures further than ten feet away from you if you would be lightly obscured by some other effect. (Almost certainly broken, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head, beyond the obvious of stacking it with mask of the wild or skulker)
Level 14:
Monster's Bane: You have become adept at preparing against new threats. Pick a creature type from the following list (favored enemy list). When attacked by creatures of that type, your AC is 4 higher. You can change this creature type over the course of a long rest.

[KOLE]

I would move spell-casting to a subclass, include a subclass with stealth bonuses, than shift the core features of it to what it was in it's 4th edition glory~ A martial fighter that has an insane amount of attacks per turn.

As a larger bit of this, I think it would help to reduce the amount of attacks fighters get, and instead incorporate some of the battle-master's moves to be for all fighters.

This gives the (typically)non-magic damage dealers a nice balance I think, with Barbarians fighting the strongest, Rangers fighting the quickest, rogues fighting the smartest, and the Fighters being generalists.

I actually really like this, and if 5.5/6e rolls around, I hope they go this direction. If the base ranger gets some abilities baked in, like Hunter's Mark, and maybe "Healing Salves" like the spell less ranger to replace goodberry, I'd love the Ranger to be the only martial that gets four attacks and have a Hunter subclass ("Maneuvers" and stuff like Colossus Slayer and Hordebreaker), Gloomstalker (Stealth emphasis), Beastmaster, and a 1/3rd caster that gets full prepared casting but balances it with limited slots for either great (Druid equivalent) utility ritual spells and awesome burst damage potential.

This gets me twitching to do some homebrewing; but redoing four core classes is a massive undertaking and I know it would never see play at my table.

You actually touched on my favorite part of my Revised Hunter. I loved the amount of dice I was rolling. Between Base rolls, colossus slayer, hunter's mark, etc. it was a whole little mini game for me scrambling for the appropriate dice. That's probably no fun for most people, but I dig that about the ranger.

[Benny89]

Problem with ranger, even revised is that he has nothing really past early levels. Ranger can be extremely frontloaded but as pure class- it sucks more then more you level it.

For example 3 levels for official Gloomstalker is incredible strong, especially on Samurai fighters. Perma free, no conentration, no resources invisibility in darkness? Upgraded Darkvision? Extra attacks in frst turn and extra damage? WIS bonus to initiative? Yes please. It's like wet dream of munchkins.

First 6 levels of Revised Hunter Ranger? Really strong. But after that? Meh...

The problem with Ranger is that he does absolutely NOTHING better than other classes. NOTHING.

Fighting in general: Fighter does it better, Paladin does it better, Barbarian does it better
Range combat?: Fighter does it better (Xbow BM and EA Samurai), Hexblade does it better, bah! Valor Bard does it better.
NOVA?: None
Tanking?: None
Utility in combat?: Monk does it better, Paladin does it better, Bards doe it better..
Support?: So many more does it better
Exploration, Stealth checks, mobility?: Rogue with Expertise does it better
Spells?: EK and Paladin have much, much better spells.
Having animal companions?: Please, Shep Druid with his Wolf Pack can wreck everything and does have ot split his action economy to do it.
Multiclass option?: Gloomstalker is one of top choices for many multiclass builds. That's it.

There is no way to "fix" current ranger. It would need to be designed again, from scratch without looking ever again at 5e version.

So Ranger hopefully will be fixed in 6e or 5.5e in some distant future.

As for now, sorry, but not possible.

If I were to write new Ranger I would focus on what makes ranger:

1. Hunter's Mark as feature, not spell, exclusive to Rangers and get's stronger on higher levels (going from 1d4 bonus damage do 1d12 at level 19)
2. Free animal companion for every ranger. Telepatic link, no stupid action economy split. Beast Master get's higher CRs for companions + passives on higher levels.
3. More natural enemies to take at higher levels or taking strong bonus vs those already taken. So at level 18 you can have total of 4 different natural enemies, or 2 Greater Natural Enemies or 1 Arch Natural Enemy. Bonuses to be yet designed.
4. Level 11 feature: bonus attack vs Natural Enemies when taking action turn.
5. Some more druid stuff for utility.
6. Hunter get's true Two Weapon Fighting features to bring back "classic" dual wielding Ranger while Monster Hunter get's upgrades/features when using 2-handed weapons. Undead Hunter getting some cleric stuff + Lesser Divine Smite at level 12 (extra 1d6 radiant dmg to Undeads only, works also on crossbows), Gloomstalker is good, nothing to change.

Just ideas, but that is just fantasy. It would require months of testing etc.

[strangebloke]

Problem with ranger, even revised is that he has nothing really past early levels. Ranger can be extremely frontloaded but as pure class- it sucks more then more you level it.

For example 3 levels for official Gloomstalker is incredible strong, especially on Samurai fighters. Perma free, no conentration, no resources invisibility in darkness? Upgraded Darkvision? Extra attacks in frst turn and extra damage? WIS bonus to initiative? Yes please. It's like wet dream of munchkins.

First 6 levels of Revised Hunter Ranger? Really strong. But after that? Meh...

The problem with Ranger is that he does absolutely NOTHING better than other classes. NOTHING.

Fighting in general: Fighter does it better, Paladin does it better, Barbarian does it better
Range combat?: Fighter does it better (Xbow BM and EA Samurai)
NOVA?: None
Tanking?: None
Utility in combat?: Monk does it better, Paladin does it better
Support?: So many more does it better
Exploration, Stealth checks, mobility?: Rogue with Expertise does it better
Spells?: EK and Paladin have much, much better spells.
Having animal companions?: Please, Shep Druid with his Wolf Pack can wreck everything and does have ot split his action economy to do it.
Multiclass option?: Gloomstalker is one of top choices for many multiclass builds. That's it.

There is no way to "fix" current ranger. It would need to be designed again, from scratch without looking ever again at 5e version.

So Ranger hopefully will be fixed in 6e or 5.5e in some distant future.

As for now, sorry, but not possible.
Lol. This post is very silly.

"doing better" isn't really why you play a class. It's really debatable what the 'best' class is at any given thing, and highly dependent on circumstance and timing. For example a paladin looks completely overpowered in a game with one 5xdeadly encounter against a single overleveled demon, but looks like a total chump compared to a ranger in a long day against loads of hordes. What are warlocks the best at? Wizards? Clerics? Monks? Heck, at mid levels, I'd argue that a ranger feels like one of the best melee characters out there. A hunter ranger can get 4 GWM/SS attacks in one round at level 5. A level 7 ranger can do that, heal the whole party up between fights, and then sneak ahead of the group with a +16 stealth check. That doesn't seem good to you?

They are the best anti-horde martial, with spells like Lightning Arrow and Spike Growth and Hail of Thorns.

Their spell list, outside of find steed is pretty much strictly better than the paladin list. Pass without Trace? Healing Spirit? Conjure Animals? Find steed is great, but what else does the paladin really have? Bless? Banishing smite? Wrathful Smite? Overall, Druid List > Cleric list and ranger list (omitting find steed) > paladin list. The EK probably has a better list than either of them, but he's a 1/3 caster and has a cripplingly low number of spells known.

I would agree that Ranger has some dead levels. I'd have a hard time justifying going "ranger 20" instead of "ranger 5, rogue 15" If only because levels 6, 10, and 14 are such letdowns. but you're way overstating things here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Problem with ranger, even revised is that he has nothing really past early levels. Ranger can be extremely frontloaded but as pure class- it sucks more then more you level it. The gloom stalker at 11, with sharpshooter feat, is scary good at killing things ... I am not sure you have played much Ranger.

The spells, granted, take a little care to choose. I would rather Ranger, a Divine spellcaster, had the "prepare" rather than "know" magic feature like the Paladin.

[Yunru]

I find nothing wrong with Hunter either. Volley? yes please!

[Benny89]

The gloom stalker at 11, with sharpshooter feat, is scary good at killing things ... I am not sure you have played much Ranger.

The spells, granted, take a little care to choose. I would rather Ranger, a Divine spellcaster, had the "prepare" rather than "know" magic feature like the Paladin.

Samurai 12/3 Gloom Stalker will kill faster. Hexblade with Xbow Master/3 Gloom Stalker will kill faster. Valor Bard 10/3 Gloom Stalker will kill faster.

And 11 Gloom Stalker is "scary" good compare to what? Sharpshooter Samurai with Elven Accuracy? Battle Master Crosbow Expert? Hexblade Crossbow Master with Eldricht Smites and Curse? Compare to Valor Bard with Swift Quiver and 1 level dip in Fighter for Archery style?

I said Gloom Stalker is great... as a dip.

That is the problem with ranger- it does nothing better than other classes do.

And yes, I played one to level 9. It just sucks, simple as that. I know there are people who love ranges, and enjoy rp them- that is cool. But facts are- ranger is worst class in 5e.

[TheUser]

But facts are- ranger is worst class in 5e.


I've encouraged every player I know to multi-class to rogue after level 5 because it just makes for a better ranger 99.99% of the time.

[GlenSmash!]

I would move spell-casting to a subclass, include a subclass with stealth bonuses, than shift the core features of it to what it was in it's 4th edition glory~ A martial fighter that has an insane amount of attacks per turn.

As a larger bit of this, I think it would help to reduce the amount of attacks fighters get, and instead incorporate some of the battle-master's moves to be for all fighters.

This gives the (typically)non-magic damage dealers a nice balance I think, with Barbarians fighting the strongest, Rangers fighting the quickest, rogues fighting the smartest, and the Fighters being generalists.

Would you keep the beast companion as a subclass feature as well? If so spellcasting and the pet become mutually inclusive.

[Zuras]

Samurai 12/3 Gloom Stalker will kill faster. Hexblade with Xbow Master/3 Gloom Stalker will kill faster. Valor Bard 10/3 Gloom Stalker will kill faster.

And 11 Gloom Stalker is "scary" good compare to what? Sharpshooter Samurai with Elven Accuracy? Battle Master Crosbow Expert? Hexblade Crossbow Master with Eldricht Smites and Curse? Compare to Valor Bard with Swift Quiver and 1 level dip in Fighter for Archery style?

I said Gloom Stalker is great... as a dip.

That is the problem with ranger- it does nothing better than other classes do.

And yes, I played one to level 9. It just sucks, simple as that. I know there are people who love ranges, and enjoy rp them- that is cool. But facts are- ranger is worst class in 5e.

I absolutely am not seeing how a 15th level pc (Fighter/Ranger 12/3) being stronger than an 11th level is somehow definitively proving the Ranger is bad, and any argument that a Valor Bard makes a better archer than a pure Gloom Stalker is absurd. A Bard will burn way too many resources to keep up with the Ranger for more than two combats. Gloom Stalkers get Greater Invisibility at 13th level, other rangers can get Guardian of Nature, either way you can get consistent advantage.

Samurai, Battle Masters and even Eldritch Knights all make excellent archers, but a single classed Ranger has a lot more spells to provide burst damage, AoE or utility, and much greater staying power than a Bard who has to expend slots to keep up with the martials.

I have seen a single class Hunter Ranger solo kill a Green Dragon at 9th level without taking a single point of damage. They are plenty strong.

The lack of anything exciting besides spells after 11 is a problem, though, and the fact that (as others have noted) Natural Explorer actually eliminates most of the exploration from actual play around the table are the problems I have with Rangers.

[R.Shackleford]

Would you keep the beast companion as a subclass feature as well? If so spellcasting and the pet become mutually inclusive.

I would make them into seperate subclasses.

But I would give the beast options, much like with the Pathfinder Summoner to have special abilities as they level. Some of these abilities will allow the ranger to cast spells on the beast. Basically this ranger, due to their connection with their beast, is able to cast "beast" spells.

[Arkhios]

To be honest, I'm actually partial to making spellcasting as a sub-class feature, but perhaps not like you'd expect.

For most sub-classes the Ranger has, spellcasting is a fairly important part to have. Thus, I'd make the spellcasting a fairly common sub-class feature for multiple sub-classes. There could, however, be a few sub-classes without spellcasting, such as Beast Master (in which case, the companion should be heavily improved). Even with Beast Master being a non-caster, I'd give them the opportunity to revive a dead beast companion, maybe even allowing them to cast Raise Dead on their beast companion as a ritual without requiring material components.
Another non-caster ranger I could think of is actually the Hunter. It's the most martial of rangers so far, so why not emphasize on that.

As for which level the ranger should gain their subclass, I'd say at 2nd level. I'd keep their spellcasting progression at ½ their level, because it's not "fair" if paladins are the only one with it.

[Luccan]

The trouble with the ranger's abilities tends to be they're situational, redundant, weak, or a combination of those. I'm... not really sure why. So, what to do. I think Natural Explorer needs to be reduced in its erasing challenges, but then made useful more often. So, first, you get proficiency with Survival. You don't even have to select it as a Ranger, just like every Rogue gets thieves tools, every Ranger gets Survival. Second, make it as follows (some things remain unchanged):

While in your Favored Terrain:

◾Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel [keep, seems appropriate]
◾Your group can’t become lost except by magical means You have advantage on checks to avoid becoming lost.
◾Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger. [Too vague] You have advantage on Perception checks in your favored terrain [the original wording seems to imply you wouldn't get disadvantage for doing those things, but that's not really a rule anywhere else so they just phrased it awkwardly. This might be too good, but it's more clear.]
◾If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace. [Annoyingly situational and splits the party, but not bad per say. I'd leave it as is, except just let them move stealthily at a normal pace even if just scouting ahead.]
◾When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would. [Totally fine, rangers gotta range. Interacts a little weird with Outlander ability, but what are you gonna do?]
◾While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area. [I'd push this over to Advantage on checks to learn the info, but this might be fine]

and add
◾A 6th level, whenever you spend 8 or more hours in a terrain other than one of your favored terrains doing no strenuous activity beyond foraging, navigating, or tracking, you may change one of your favored terrains to the terrain you occupy. This new terrain remains a favored terrain until it is switched out in turn.

Now it's adaptable, but not instantly, and doesn't ignore the travel portion of the game, while still making you better at it than most other characters.


Primeval Awareness is rough. First, it specifies creatures that might not even be on your Favored Enemy list and secondly, isn't much use in tracking them down. If it's in your favored terrain it's arguably worse. A 1 mile area is much easier to search than a 6 mile area. Plus you waste a slot on it. And come on, "is there a fey within 6 miles of this forest?". Really? Of course there is! If it's gonna be that useless, don't have it cost a slot. Or, let it cost a slot and actually be useful. I don't know how to fix it so it isn't a super useful Divination, but there has to be something better than that.

As for Land's Stride and Hide in Plain Sight... They aren't that bad, they just come too late. Ok, HiPS might be bad, but only because PCs rarely get to set up ambushes. It could still be good even with the movement restriction, but it also takes a full minute to set up. I'd say it takes a minute to set up, but the camo lasts X minutes or hours, but you only benefit from it when you aren't moving.

[Chronos]

I'm currently playing a revised ranger (hunter) (I've gone from level 5 to 9 with it so far), and I don't have any problem with it. Beforehand, I expected the limited spells known to be an issue, but in practice, I'm finding that I'm able to pick up most of what I want, but still have to pick and choose carefully (which I think is about the right balance point for a spells-known caster). And the spell list seems decent to me, too: The only 3rd-level spell I have so far is Wind Wall (which is good and flexible), but at 2nd, Pass Without Trace and Spike Growth are both great. Yes, there are some real clunkers on the list, too, but a spell list should be judged based on the best spells on it, not the worst.

My biggest complaint with the PHB ranger was the lack of a Favored Enemy ability, which has been a staple for rangers since time immemorial (and no, a Favored Conversation Partner ability is not an acceptable substitute). But Revised Ranger fixes that.

If there's any problem I have with the Revised Ranger, it's with the Primeval Awareness ability to sense favored enemies. It seems to really annoy the DM to keep asking "Are there any dragons or monstrosities within five miles?", but there's very little reason not to ask on a regular basis.

[Damon_Tor]

Part of the reason I say fixing the ranger should revolve around adding spells is because WotC has stated an unwillingness to rewrite a printed class, something I agree with in general.

But I have no problems introducing spells which directly and specifically interact with a Ranger feature. A spell which gives invisibility but only in a favored terrain, for example. Or spells might add damage to attacks or allow for additional attacks to be made under a variety of circumstances, but only if the target is a Favored Enemy. The specific requirement of a particular Ranger feature would keep the spells out of the hands of Bards (a complaint I've seen in regard to the idea of better spells for the Ranger) and the limitations inherent in those features would allow the spells to be more powerful than they might otherwise be allowed to be.

[Man_Over_Game]

Part of the reason I say fixing the ranger should revolve around adding spells is because WotC has stated an unwillingness to rewrite a printed class, something I agree with in general.

But I have no problems introducing spells which directly and specifically interact with a Ranger feature. A spell which gives invisibility but only in a favored terrain, for example. Or spells might add damage to attacks or allow for additional attacks to be made under a variety of circumstances, but only if the target is a Favored Enemy. The specific requirement of a particular Ranger feature would keep the spells out of the hands of Bards (a complaint I've seen in regard to the idea of better spells for the Ranger) and the limitations inherent in those features would allow the spells to be more powerful than they might otherwise be allowed to be.

I really, REALLY like this idea, the problem is that tying the abilities into something like explicit Ranger features really cuts down on the life-expectancy of the list. We should assume that eventually, other classes/subclasses will eventually gain access to the Ranger list, or it's creating a statement that nobody will EVER have access to the Ranger subclass.

Plus, with the limited number of spell slots and spells known to Rangers, they'll be forced into taking the new content and lose out on the old content. It'd be Eldritch Blast for Warlocks all over again.

But you are definitely on to something. Perhaps what needs to be done is not a total revamp of the Ranger, but additional rules to the system that make the Ranger relevant. Perhaps using something like Xanathar's as an example, WotC could add an entirely new suite of DM resources to make exploration more interesting to incentivize Rangers to be used more, or introducing more ways of using skills. More modules where survival is a concern, and introducing methods to allow players to more comfortably split the party.

The Ranger already has features, the problem is that those features aren't being used at actual tables. The reason those features aren't being used is because DMs don't know how to make them see use, and education is something that's easily fixed.

[Yunru]

Part of the reason I say fixing the ranger should revolve around adding spells is because WotC has stated an unwillingness to rewrite a printed class, something I agree with in general.

Except the Beastmaster, in which case they're also willing to break their guidelines on not using errata to add things, only clarify.

[Damon_Tor]

Except the Beastmaster, in which case they're also willing to break their guidelines on not using errata to add things, only clarify.

Interestingly, I think the Beastmaster is the class which could benefit the most from a series of a new spells designed to buff the class. Powerful, concentration-free buffs that specifically target beasts would be great.

[Luccan]

Interestingly, I think the Beastmaster is the class which could benefit the most from a series of a new spells designed to buff the class. Powerful, concentration-free buffs that specifically target beasts would be great.

The problem, then, is surely one of quantity. Rangers learn 11 spells. If you have 4 or 5 "necessary" spells for the class and/or subclass, rangers get less distinct. And any deviation from those 4 or 5 spells, while a more unique build, have a solid chance of making you worse. Ranger has class abilities that need to be reworked from the ground up, not patched over with spells (although I would not object to some buff spells for the beast companion).

[Aquillion]

That would squeeze an already limited resource even more, plus allow for bard shenanigans if you make these spells off the curve.It's not hard to keep Bard shenanigans from breaking things. Especially spells that call for a weapon attack roll - Lore Bards aren't going to be good at those, and others don't get them until level 10, when there are already many things competing with it.

Like, sure, Swift Quiver or Find Greater Steed are fun in certain builds, but I don't really think I'd rate them above Telekinesis, Bigby's Hand, Wall of Force, etc.

And many of the other examples people mention are even more dubious - nothing really beats out Fireball for pure damage in the Lore Bard level 3 slot, say.

[KorvinStarmast]

And yes, I played one to level 9. It just sucks, simple as that. I know there are people who love ranges, and enjoy rp them- that is cool. But facts are- ranger is worst class in 5e. The sharp shooter feat, and the level 11 feature of 'if you miss, you attack again' has turned into a non trivial damage buff in our experience.
My core complaint with Ranger is that the divine caster "prepared" approach like the other divine casters was not taken; that breaks the theme.
Bhat bonus spells like the XgTE sub classes get was not back filled to the original 2, which seems to me a signal that, like Pilate, Crawford and Mearls washed their hands of the Ranger class.
One more "tweak" with beast master would have been nice before they went final. (For example, like the greater find steed, I'd like to see the Ranger Beast Master be able to get more powerful companions as they progress in tier/level, though I suspect they messed around that during development and wrote it off as being to fiddly).

[Yunru]

My core complaint with Ranger is that the divine caster "prepared" approach like the other divine casters was not taken; that breaks the theme. What, in your opinion, makes the Ranger a divine caster, for it to be a deviation from the theme? The casting stat?
Thematically, Rangers aren't divine casters. They're wise men, not holy men.

[stoutstien]

What, in your opinion, makes the Ranger a divine caster, for it to be a deviation from the theme? The casting stat?
Thematically, Rangers aren't divine casters. They're wise men, not holy men.

Well they pretty much say that rangers have limited druid casting and druids are divine casters.
Also on the spell casting section it flat out calls druids, cleric, paladin, and rangers divine casters.

[strangebloke]

What, in your opinion, makes the Ranger a divine caster, for it to be a deviation from the theme? The casting stat?
Thematically, Rangers aren't divine casters. They're wise men, not holy men.

This is hair splitting. Druids are prepared casters too.

Rangers dead levels and their janky casting setup are their worst designed bits. The former is hard to fix, the latter is easier.

[Haldir]

Make it a Rogue subclass.

Actually, make it three Rogue subclasses.

* Druid list 1/3 caster
* Strength/Dex axe fighting (dueling style or twf)
* Beastmaster

Level 3: Gain Favored Terrain, Favored Enemy, and one of the above. Base the beast on your proficiency bonus and not rogue level.

Make Favored Terrain and enemy a long rest mechanic and is about studying specific lands or creatures.

I've often fervently advocated the same for the Monk, but with Fighter. Though with Ranger I'd also consider it more thematic as a Fighter as well.

[Vogie]

Make it a Rogue subclass.

Actually, make it three Rogue subclasses.

* Druid list 1/3 caster
* Strength/Dex axe fighting (dueling style or twf)
* Beastmaster

Level 3: Gain Favored Terrain, Favored Enemy, and one of the above. Base the beast on your proficiency bonus and not rogue level.

Make Favored Terrain and enemy a long rest mechanic and is about studying specific lands or creatures.

Actually you could spread it out even more. Maybe Beastmaster could be a Monk subclass; a mystical connection to the beasts, using Ki points to control the beast. Furry Blows as a bonus action. That sounds like something I'll be making soon...

[R.Shackleford]

I've often fervently advocated the same for the Monk, but with Fighter. Though with Ranger I'd also consider it more thematic as a Fighter as well.

The Fighter shouldn't even be a class. It should be the Eldritch Knight and then have a subclass that takes away the spellcasting and gives you a non-magical fighter.

Alao, Rangers are the wilderness Rogues. They get more skill focused abilities, more skills, and are pushed toward Dex more so than Str. Plus, Rangers don't get access to heavy armor. Rogue is more thematic and mechanic for the Ranger.

Though, the 5e Rogue does fighter better than fighter. You actually get cool class features with the rogue and if you grab a shield you can refluff things like damger sense or evasion as a shield block.


Actually you could spread it out even more. Maybe Beastmaster could be a Monk subclass; a mystical connection to the beasts, using Ki points to control the beast. Furry Blows as a bonus action. That sounds like something I'll be making soon...

Any class could be a subclass for another class. When the Rogue pucks up Swashbuckler, it's basically adding Fighter into the Rogue.

[Malbrack]

As others have mentioned, Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, and Hide in Plain Sight tend to be largely irrelevant in many campaigns. As a result, levels 1, 6, and 10 feel weak/bad. The other levels up through 12 (I don't have any real experience at high level game play) are strong though. Level 2 gives a fighting style and spells. 3, 7, and 11 give archetype features. 4, 8, and 12 ASIs. Level 5 gives Extra Attack. 9 gives level 3 spells.

So the question of how to improve Rangers is how to make levels 1, 6, and 10 feel stronger/more useful. Maybe Hunter's Mark could do 2d6 damage against a Favored Enemy?