PDA

View Full Version : To multiclass, or not to multiclass?



Jannex
2007-10-03, 01:00 AM
...That is my question.

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to deal the slings and arrows of outrageous Sneak Attack, or to take charms against a sea of NPCs, and by persuading, own them.

*ahem*

Okay, now that I've gotten the gratuitous Shakespeare out of my system, I come to the question. I currently have a level 4 human Rogue, and am trying to decide whether or not I want to multiclass into Beguiler. I designed this character from the beginning to leave open the option of multiclassing (there's justification for it in her backstory), and the DM is okay with it. I am, however, indecisive. Here are the pros and cons, as I see them:

Pros:

a decent selection of 0th and 1st level spells, including Disguise Self, which saves on buying a Hat of Disguise, and Comprehend Languages, which is useful given how much play different regional languages see in this campaign setting (DM's homebrew setting)
a boost to her Will save, which she could definitely use
even if she continued with Rogue, her BAB wouldn't advance at this level
her spells would fill an as-yet-unoccupied niche in the party (and she's pretty much already the party face)


Cons:

her Sneak Attack won't advance this level
1st-level spells at 5th character level, and I'd still be going primarily with Rogue, meaning save DCs will be kind of sad and spells will be kind of underpowered
it pushes her eventual BAB back some
2 fewer skill points/level, plus the need to invest in additional, magic-related skills
no 2nd level spells until Beguiler 4, which, since I'm not going exclusively Beguiler from here on out, will be a while


Part of it is an optimization concern, since I know that a couple of levels of full-caster aren't terribly useful as you get to higher levels, though in general I don't think optimization is going to be a massive concern in this game. Bizarrely enough, I think I might actually be one of the most experienced D&D players in the group I'm in--and if you know anything about me, you know that should never happen. D&D is not my main game, so it's kind of a bizarre feeling to realize that I'm the "experienced D&Der" in the group.

Anyway, as far as optimization and context goes, it might help if I described the rest of the group, and showed my stats. The PC party is as follows:

Tank 1: female human Fighter
Tank 2: male human/silver-dragon-blooded(?) Dragon Shaman
Blaster: male human(???) Psion, of the "I deal damage to your brain!" variety
Healer: male human Wizard, necromancer (with houserules regarding necromancy, putting cure/inflict spells into it... Necromancy in this setting is essentially like medicine in the 19th century: poorly-understood, kind of creepy, but not necessarily evil)
Skillmonkey/Face: me; female human Rogue

So it's not like I'm in a party full of Uberchargers, CoDzillas, and Batmen. We're a solid, functional party, but nothing super-ridiculous.

As of level 4, my stats are as follows:


Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 11
Cha: 16

HP: 29
AC: 18 (10 +4 Dex +4 mithral chain shirt)

Fort: +4 (+1 base, +3 Con)
Ref: +8 (+4 base, +4 Dex)
Will: +4 (+1 base, +3 Cha [Force of Personality])

BAB: +3

Feats:
Dodge
Force of Personality (not optimal, but I look at it this way: If I fail a Fort or Reflex save, my character takes some damage. If I fail a Will save, I stop having fun.)
Weapon Finesse

Skills:
maxed Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Tumble
various ranks in any number of other skills

Am currently halfway toward saving for Gloves of Dexterity +2


So, what are people's thoughts? There are some utility spells which will be nice to have regardless (Disguise Self, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Expeditious Retreat), but is it worth giving up a level of Rogue? And I might continue pursue Beguiler a bit in future levels, but not to the exclusion of Rogue. So right now, I'm stuck on "maybe."

What do you all think?

Rachel Lorelei
2007-10-03, 01:13 AM
I think you're probably better off as a rogue, since as a Rogue 4/Beguiler X you won't have particularily good spellcasting and you won't have sneak attack/melee ability, either.

If you do take it for the spellcasting, consider taking either it or Wizard instead, then entering the Unseen Seer prestige class in the Complete Mage. That advances sneak attack and has full spellcasting and 6+INT skills.
Alternatively, try and get the DM to let you rebuild your character; maybe show him the retraining rules in the PHB II.

Use your first Advanced Learning to pick up Hunter's Eye (Ranger 2, PHBII). Take the Practiced Spellcaster feat. Cloud of Knives will be a useful spell, as will buffs if you want to keep flanking-and-sneak-attacking. (Shield, for example--you're fragile.)

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-03, 01:18 AM
You have a good CHA, so I'd say go for it. You probably want to look for a PrC that will advance both your rogue-yness and you beguiler casting though, which will probably mean you'll need to take 4 levels of Beguiler to get 2nd level spells.

Jannex
2007-10-03, 01:30 AM
I think you're probably better off as a rogue, since as a Rogue 4/Beguiler X you won't have particularily good spellcasting and you won't have sneak attack/melee ability, either.

Yeah, that was what I was worried about...


If you do take it for the spellcasting, consider taking either it or Wizard instead, then entering the Unseen Seer prestige class in the Complete Mage. That advances sneak attack and has full spellcasting and 6+INT skills.

I wouldn't go for Wizard, because I can't stand prepared spellcasting. That's largely why I was considering Beguiler in the first place; spontaneous casting with a full list. It's pretty much the only full-caster class that I can play without clawing my own eyes out.


Alternatively, try and get the DM to let you rebuild your character; maybe show him the retraining rules in the PHB II.

I wouldn't retrain; I like having her as a Rogue, and it makes sense for her backstory. The only question is whether or not it's worth multiclassing for a bit of magical ability.


Use your first Advanced Learning to pick up Hunter's Eye (Ranger 2, PHBII). Take the Practiced Spellcaster feat. Cloud of Knives will be a useful spell, as will buffs if you want to keep flanking-and-sneak-attacking. (Shield, for example--you're fragile.)

Practiced Spellcaster is a good idea--that's the one that adds to your effective caster level if you're multiclass, right?


You have a good CHA, so I'd say go for it. You probably want to look for a PrC that will advance both your rogue-yness and you beguiler casting though, which will probably mean you'll need to take 4 levels of Beguiler to get 2nd level spells.

Even better; Beguiler spellcasting is INT-based. I've never quite been able to figure out why, but I'm not about to argue the point. If I were going to take 4 levels of Beguiler, I'd almost be tempted to go for 6, for the free Silent Spell and the fun to be had with Surprise Casting and Improved Feint. You're right about needing to find a PrC in that case... I know Rachel Lorelei mentioned Unseen Seer, but I don't have access to Complete Mage, so I don't really know anything about it.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-10-03, 01:50 AM
If you're that worried about prepared casting, prepare the same spells each time, but since you don't have access to the Unseen Seer, it's a moot point.

Some other options are multiclassing into Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) or the Lurk class in Complete Psionic, or working something out with your DM (i.e. letting you into Arcane Trickster with first-level rather than third-level spells--the prerequisites are way too high anyway, and you're not a full caster.

As a rogue, just crank Use Magic Device (once you have more money, there's that Circlet of Something, core, that gives +3 to all CHA based checks, including UMD, for 5 to 6 thousand gp).

Machete
2007-10-03, 02:05 AM
That is a toughie. I'd say, if you like what you have now and that is going well, stick with it.

I guess its a matter of utility because those spells won't be much good for blasting. The languages matter could be hired by hiring a translator minion at sp/day prices being a bargain.

Factotum (dungeonscape) dip might be a workable build to free up some skill points for Language (works in dead magic zones) and other skills and deliver some meager spellcasting.


Lard can replace Grease and Flour can replace See Invisible. Sometimes the low magic(almost said "tech") approach will net more versatility will less of a committment, a Framed Pack from Arms and Equipment Guide will help deal with the weight of the extra stuff and a medium creature fit sized halfling war wagon(A&E), six mules, and the Translator Hireling(also may be the driver) is a bargain when it comes to hauling your party and all the mundane gear ever around.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-03, 02:47 AM
Even better; Beguiler spellcasting is INT-based.

:smallredface: Well, you have an even better int, so that works to.

leperkhaun
2007-10-03, 02:50 AM
stay rogue. Use magic device will get you those low level utility spells without sacrificing your rogueishness and since you are going for mostly low level spells it will be inexpensive.

Its even more not expensive if your necro takes craft wand.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-03, 09:25 AM
A one-level dip may be worth it; dual-classing rogue/beguiler really doesn't work out all that well.

For the one-level dip, it depends on what you're planning to do with it. Note that the beguiler's save-or-suck spells aren't that effective unless you're a straight caster. Of course, he does get other kinds of spell.

I kind of like the concept of a rogue with some magic ability - indeed, my first 3E character was a Rogue 3/Sorc 1, with some nifties like Mage Hand and a few illusions. Unfortunately, Invis and Knock are 2nd-level spells.

ocato
2007-10-03, 10:02 AM
Well, you can always move into the Arcane Trickster, giving you continuous spell advancement, the ability to use your skill monkey stuff at range, sneak attack progression, and the ability to sneak attack pretty much whenever you want regardless of circumstance 1-2/day. Of course you are sacrificing some sneak attack while you get your caster level up, losing skill points, and using a d4 Hit die. If you take the feat that lets you count your caster level as 4 higher to a maximum of your HD you're looking at being a so-so rogue and almost a full Beguiler (spell wise). The Arcane Trickster is in the DMG I think, and the SRD. It's not a terrible thing to consider.

Dullyanna
2007-10-03, 12:24 PM
I'd go with either convincing your DM to let you enter Arcane Trickster immediately, or going with UMD and your own personal translator. If you do go with Beguiler, just use buffs, since they'll be more useful (And take Practiced Spellcaster).

Shisumo
2007-10-03, 01:56 PM
Is there any chance spellthief would do you any good? Master Spellthief > Practiced Spellcaster as a general rule, and you'd get to keep at least some of your SA progression...

Chronos
2007-10-03, 05:10 PM
Spellthief would probably have been better if starting with it at level 1. But as it is, it takes them a long time to get their own spells, so switching to it now wouldn't gain much.


If you're that worried about prepared casting, prepare the same spells each time, but since you don't have access to the Unseen Seer, it's a moot point.No, no, no. If you're going to prepare the same spells every day, then there's no advantage to playing a prepared spellcaster. Especially not if there's any chance you might want to use the same spell twice in one day.

The thing about spellcasting rogues is, there's some great spells out there for a rogue to have, but most of them are 2nd level (Alter Self, Invisibility, Knock, and Cat's Grace come to mind), and four levels is a long time to wait to get them. A one-level dip in something still gets you Disguise Self, Reduce Person, Unseen Servant, and assorted cantrips, though.