The Stealthy Psion

[Pippin]

Hi there.

I apologise because I already asked some questions on Discord about this, and now I don't want to hijack the server with the same topic over and over. Let's make a thread.

Recently I have had fun with a concept that everybody knows: powers do not require verbal, somatic or material components. It is possible to manifest anything and everything without moving an inch. Now let's suppose you manage to change your true form to something that is Fine (1) and also really, really casual to the environment your enemies live in (2). Let's say you are now a ladybug. True Seeing will not give you away because that's your true form. As long as you have no spell or power effects on you (= no buffs), you have no aura around you. This means Arcane Sight, Aura Sight and other detection effects will fail to spot you as well.

Now, if you have a mission and fly your way to the place you need to be, nobody will stop you. If you need to engage combat and start manifesting powers, nobody will spot you as long as you make sure to manifest them in a way that doesn't give your location away, and as long as the duration is always Instantaneous (otherwise Aura Sight might work against you). Manifesting a power does provoke an attack of opportunity, but in this case nobody knows who you are, nobody knows where you are. Your enemies are all around you, yet you aren't in trouble at all.

Well, I thought this was funny enough to share. What do you think? Did I miss something that would ruin the whole strategy? Thanks for reading.

[Segev]

Getting your ladybug form to be your "true form" will be tricky. The best trick I can think of for it would be True Mind Switch, which is a 9th level power. Awfully late for this to come online. And that assumes that being mindless vermin doesn't prevent it from being a valid target for True Mind Switch. Which I think it technically does.

So you'd first need to change it into a creature with a mind (which might require PAO, so now you're looking at having 8th level arcane spells, too) and then True Mind Switch with that, then let the PAO expire.

This means you need to be something akin to Wizard 5, Psion 7, Cerebremancer 10, or find a way to get +2 levels of psion or wizard for purposes of levels of spells.

Or you need a 15th level wizard working with you to provide the PAO, at the very least.


Maybe you could get some traction by seeing if there's an "awaken vermin" spell out there somewhere, and claim you're a ladybug who was Awakened and decided to become a psion?

[Pippin]

Simply Astral Seed I think.

[Segev]

Simply Astral Seed I think.

I think you mean Mind Seed, since Astral Seed doesn't let you create a new body of any sort you want, just your own. You'd still have had to make your body's true form be the one you're re-creating.

And Mind Seed is, unfortunately, still Telepathy, and thus mindlessness protects from it.

[jdizzlean]

Maybe you could get some traction by seeing if there's an "awaken vermin" spell out there somewhere, and claim you're a ladybug who was Awakened and decided to become a psion?

a 9th level master of flies (savage Species 80) can awaken a vermin as a class ability. this however is at minimum another 14th level character, so you'd probably have to find one to do it for you, and since it's also only 1/week, it'd probably be expensive, but it does give you another route to take

[Psyren]

Detect Psionics would actually still pick you up - it doesn't just ping active buffs, it pings manifesting ability itself:


Characters who have levels in a psionic class, creatures with the psionic subtype, and creatures with the Wild Talent feat possess psionic auras.

[Crichton]

Detect Psionics would actually still pick you up - it doesn't just ping active buffs, it pings manifesting ability itself:

True. Though its range is limited to 60ft, so as long as the OP's manifester sticks with powers that have Medium or Long range (pitifully few powers do, I know), he should be able to stay out of that range.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you use a psychoactive skin of proteus Device (from the Create Device feat, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood), you can turn yourself into a ladybug. The effect is both nonmagical and nonpsionic. If you use a scroll of mind blank (or can cast/manifest it or its lesser cousin), you wouldn't show up under any kind of divination, including detect magic/psionics and true seeing.

You can afford a Device psychoactive skin of proteus fairly early on, if you futz about with the Landlord feat. Or you could get a Device phylactery of change (A&EG) for quite cheap, which is easily gotten via Ancestral Relic, if nothing else, and another of something like nondetection or Nystul's magic aura. And since magic aura doesn't normally cover up its own aura, using it from a Device fixes that problem rather nicely.

And none of it requires actually casting 8th and 9th level spells, either.

[Crichton]

And none of it requires actually casting 8th and 9th level spells, either.


What it does require, however, is convincing your DM to allow an item from a 3rd party sourcebook. Not saying that's impossible, just that it doesn't usually factor into rules discussions, the same way houserules don't.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What it does require, however, is convincing your DM to allow an item from a 3rd party sourcebook. Not saying that's impossible, just that it doesn't usually factor into rules discussions, the same way houserules don't.Could you use Chain Spell on magic aura and have it cover itself up with just one casting?

I mean, you can target a spell that is in the middle of being cast via counterspelling, so could you target a casting of magic aura with itself? :smallconfused:

And I believe Ravenloft is 2nd party, not 3rd. It has the official seal and everything. :smalltongue:

[Crichton]

Could you use Chain Spell on magic aura and have it cover itself up with just one casting?

I mean, you can target a spell that is in the middle of being cast via counterspelling, so could you target a casting of magic aura with itself? :smallconfused:

I don't think you can? I mean, the Counterspell rules entry creates a specific exception to the way actions normally resolve in order... Other spells don't qualify for that exception. That said, not sure why you asked me, in context of the post of mine you quoted. :smallbiggrin:




And I believe Ravenloft is 2nd party, not 3rd. It has the official seal and everything. :smalltongue:


It does have the seal. I was about to point out how 2nd party material is still not considered as 'official' or 'canon' as 1st party sources, but then again, I just - in another thread - was pointing out how Dragon Compendium is 'more official' than Dragon Magazine, so I feel like maybe it would be hypocritical of me. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

And I believe Ravenloft is 2nd party, not 3rd. It has the official seal and everything. :smalltongue:

There's no such thing as "2nd party." YOU are the second party.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's no such thing as "2nd party." YOU are the second party.No, YOU are!

...Wait, what?

[Pippin]

Detect Psionics would actually still pick you up - it doesn't just ping active buffs, it pings manifesting ability itself:
I think you should quote the sentence before this one:

A psionic aura is given off by any active or permanent power, or during the use of any psionic feat. Characters who have levels in a psionic class, creatures with the psionic subtype, and creatures with the Wild Talent feat possess psionic auras.
The sentence you quoted elaborates the one before. To me it explains that if you are a Fighter and make use of a psionic item (eg. a Psionic Grease power stone), you don't get a psionic aura by doing so.

[Crichton]

I think you should quote the sentence before this one:

The sentence you quoted elaborates the one before. To me it explains that if you are a Fighter and make use of a psionic item (eg. a Psionic Grease power stone), you don't get a psionic aura by doing so.

No, the second sentence very much says that psionic characters and creatures do have a psionic aura, which Detect Psionics can pick up. The problem later comes in that it doesn't give any rules for determining the strength of aura such a character has. It only gives rules for aura strength for active powers and psionic items. But just because it doesn't give you a way to calculate the strength of the aura doesn't negate the fact that the character has one and DP can detect it.

[Pippin]

Well if you want to make a RAW case, I suppose I can't unwrite what has been written. But it doesn't really make sense, because whenever psionic auras are mentioned, they are always associated with the power or the item that caused them:


If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Psicraft checks to determine the discipline involved in each aura.

A psionic aura’s strength depends on a functioning power’s level or an item’s manifester level.

A psionic aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a power) or is destroyed (in the case of a psionic item).

Inherent psionic auras would be a strange asymmetry, spellcasters don't have inherent magical auras if I'm not mistaken.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Inherent psionic auras would be a strange asymmetry, spellcasters don't have inherent magical auras if I'm not mistaken.Spellcasters (arcane and divine neither one) also don't gain a subtype from being so. Manifesters, on the other hand, do.

Which probably means that psionic characters are more psychic than casters are magical.

[Pippin]

Spellcasters (arcane and divine neither one) also don't gain a subtype from being so. Manifesters, on the other hand, do.

Which probably means that psionic characters are more psychic than casters are magical.
It being an asymmetry was not my argument, it not being documented anywhere was. This ruling seems at least as arguable as its contrary. But then, other people's point of view was what I was looking for.

[Crichton]

It being an asymmetry was not my argument, it not being documented anywhere was. This ruling seems at least as arguable as its contrary. But then, other people's point of view was what I was looking for.

I agree it's odd and asymmetrical, but I suspect that's largely because when they wrote the description for Detect Psionics, they copy/pasted the text and charts from Detect Magic, but then realized that, as Maxi pointed out, psionic characters have their own subtype and it's more of an innate thing than magic is, so they hastily added the lines about psionic characters having auras, but forgot to update the rules for detecting the auras to reflect that information.

None of that changes that it says they have auras, and that DP detects them, though...

[Pippin]

I agree it's odd and asymmetrical, but I suspect that's largely because when they wrote the description for Detect Psionics, they copy/pasted the text and charts from Detect Magic, but then realized that, as Maxi pointed out, psionic characters have their own subtype and it's more of an innate thing than magic is, so they hastily added the lines about psionic characters having auras, but forgot to update the rules for detecting the auras to reflect that information.

None of that changes that it says they have auras, and that DP detects them, though...
I must concede on that.

So, does this mean that a regular Spellcaster whose true form is a ladybug, casting only still, silent spells, will defeat the challenge? I just thought this morning, there might be a divination effect somewhere that would enable people to "see" creatures based on their HDs. If the ladybug on the shelf has 5 HDs, that might be something to worry about.

[Crichton]

I must concede on that.

So, does this mean that a regular Spellcaster whose true form is a ladybug, casting only still, silent spells, will defeat the challenge? I just thought this morning, there might be a divination effect somewhere that would enable people to "see" creatures based on their HDs. If the ladybug on the shelf has 5 HDs, that might be something to worry about.

I think a caster would have the advantage of no aura, although they'd have to spend the feats to get Still and Silent spells, which the psion effectively gets for free.

As for divination, if someone with divination magic is actively looking for you, just hiding out (in any form) isn't likely to defeat their efforts. I thought the point of this was to be able to take someone by surprise, with them just not noticing you because you seemed to be an innocuous bug? If they're actively looking for you with magic, this is the wrong strategy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly, I think a dragonfly would be a better candidate. They're much faster and more maneuverable, and I doubt anyone's going to look for one of them, either.

[Pippin]

I think a caster would have the advantage of no aura, although they'd have to spend the feats to get Still and Silent spells, which the psion effectively gets for free.

As for divination, if someone with divination magic is actively looking for you, just hiding out (in any form) isn't likely to defeat their efforts. I thought the point of this was to be able to take someone by surprise, with them just not noticing you because you seemed to be an innocuous bug? If they're actively looking for you with magic, this is the wrong strategy.Exactly that's the point. We were assuming that the character is completely unknown, and things like Discern Location and Metafaculty can't be used on him (yet). Actually, the character very much wants to remain unknown: if he ever had to choose between being recognised and running away, he would run away every time.

Yes the two metamagic feats required are quite a bummer.


Honestly, I think a dragonfly would be a better candidate. They're much faster and more maneuverable, and I doubt anyone's going to look for one of them, either.Sure, a dragonfly then. I'm not imposing the shape. I would have thought ladybugs were the best candidate though, there's nothing smaller. Dragonflies will draw attention. But whatever is best.

[Segev]

Sure, a dragonfly then. I'm not imposing the shape. I would have thought ladybugs were the best candidate though, there's nothing smaller. Dragonflies will draw attention. But whatever is best.

For mobility and going unnoticed, either a fly or a mosquito would be best. Yes, both are more likely to be actively squished than a dragonfly or a ladybug, but they're a LOT harder to see.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For mobility and going unnoticed, either a fly or a mosquito would be best. Yes, both are more likely to be actively squished than a dragonfly or a ladybug, but they're a LOT harder to see.Well, their stats based on size are identical, and I don't think any of them have any racial bonuses or penalties to hiding (although they probably should).

But who actually wants to be either of them? One drinks blood and the other eats... Well, let's not go there. *shudder*

[Pippin]

I believe female mosquitoes drink sap. Or male mosquitoes... I never know.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I believe female mosquitoes drink sap. Or male mosquitoes... I never know.The males drink sap. But still, dragonflies are much awesomer. Maybe you could convince the DM that you're an actual dragon-fly. Like, a draconic dragonfly? Dip into a level of dragonfire adept so you can breathe fire.

[Segev]

The males drink sap. But still, dragonflies are much awesomer. Maybe you could convince the DM that you're an actual dragon-fly. Like, a draconic dragon fly? Dip into a level of dragonfire adept so you can breathe fire.

I'm pretty sure you could use Energy Ray (fire) to simulate that, but an awakened dragonfly with levels of dragonfire adept is just too awesome not to try at some point.

[Pippin]

So here we are, peacefully casting Halaster's Fetch spells one after the other, on people who have no idea what the hell is going on.

[Segev]

So here we are, peacefully casting Halaster's Fetch spells one after the other, on people who have no idea what the hell is going on.

I’m not familiar with that spell. What’s it do?

[Zaq]

If you want this to function at a level prior to when you get true mind switch and similar tricks online, a somewhat less intense version would simply be the classic tibbet psion, which I've always wanted to play but never had a chance to. Tiny instead of Fine, and a cat is a bit more noticeable than an insect, but still, there's a lot of places where it's totally reasonable to encounter a stray cat without batting an eye, and it works from level 1.

(I've always thought it would be a barrel of laughs to lead someone into an ambush by being a tibbet psion and using a combination of psionic charm person and psionic suggestion to convince the unsuspecting sap that I'm the most adorable kitty they've ever seen, they need to pick me up and pet me, and they need to just keep walking while paying attention only to me and to nothing else...)

Regarding the psionic aura thing, would magic aura disguise that under the transparency rules? Shouldn't be too hard to get an item of that to use as needed, right?

[Crichton]

If you want this to function at a level prior to when you get true mind switch and similar tricks online, a somewhat less intense version would simply be the classic tibbet psion, which I've always wanted to play but never had a chance to. Tiny instead of Fine, and a cat is a bit more noticeable than an insect, but still, there's a lot of places where it's totally reasonable to encounter a stray cat without batting an eye, and it works from level 1.

(I've always thought it would be a barrel of laughs to lead someone into an ambush by being a tibbet psion and using a combination of psionic charm person and psionic suggestion to convince the unsuspecting sap that I'm the most adorable kitty they've ever seen, they need to pick me up and pet me, and they need to just keep walking while paying attention only to me and to nothing else...)

Regarding the psionic aura thing, would magic aura disguise that under the transparency rules? Shouldn't be too hard to get an item of that to use as needed, right?



Get outta my head! I'm putting together a Tibbit Psion right now, for a oneshot I'm playing in. Always wanted to play one!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Get outta my head!Well, he IS psychic...

[Pippin]

I’m not familiar with that spell. What’s it do?
Sorry, for some reason this post escaped my radar.

Halaster's Fetch spells are basically Summon Monster spells, only they are three levels higher and they are Calling rather than Summoning. In other terms the monster doesn't go away. They can be found in City of Splendors: Waterdeep. I don't think they are particularly optimal for the situation described in the OP, but calling one monster per round was a funny enough concept.

:smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Sorry, for some reason this post escaped my radar.

Halaster's Fetch spells are basically Summon Monster spells, only they are three levels higher and they are Calling rather than Summoning. In other terms the monster doesn't go away. They can be found in City of Splendors: Waterdeep. I don't think they are particularly optimal for the situation described in the OP, but calling one monster per round was a funny enough concept.

:smallbiggrin:

Yow. Calling. I assume the monster doesn't stay controlled indefinitely; does it get sent back at the end if not killed? Or have you got a timer before an uncontrolled monster is running loose?

[Psyren]

Yow. Calling. I assume the monster doesn't stay controlled indefinitely; does it get sent back at the end if not killed? Or have you got a timer before an uncontrolled monster is running loose?

The duration is 1 round/level, at the end of which your control expires and the monster(s) become(s) free-willed.

[Crichton]

The duration is 1 round/level, at the end of which your control expires and the monster(s) become(s) free-willed.

That could be... chaotic.


So, do the creatures become normal monsters after the duration ends? Would the PCs get XP for killing them? If someone used Halaster's Fetch to summon a bunch of monsters, then left, and the PCs encountered them later after the spell had worn off, it would just be a normal encounter, right?

I'm sure the rules are actually silent on it, and so it would likely default back to the 'Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon with magic powers' rule, even though it feels very different from normal summoning spells... More like a BBEG populating his keep with sentries he Gated in or something...


Even if they aren't XP-giving monsters, I can see this being really abusable, casting Fetch constantly as you go around, populating the countryside with all manner of deadly monsters...

[Pippin]

If one can mitigate the comatose effect of (Psionic) Sequester, then there might be a way for Psions to be truly stealthy after all!

[Crichton]

If one can mitigate the comatose effect of (Psionic) Sequester, then there might be a way for Psions to be truly stealthy after all!

Except that Psionic Sequester doesn't prevent psionic powers from detecting the subject, only [Divination] spells and normal vision (grants the equivalent of Invisibility). The psionic version of Sequester is kinda pointless against other psions, and also for some inexplicable reason costs XP, when the spell version doesn't.

[Crake]

There's no such thing as "2nd party." YOU are the second party.

Side note, 1st, 2nd and 3rd party when it comes to publishing/development is different from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd party perspective.

[Pippin]

Except that Psionic Sequester doesn't prevent psionic powers from detecting the subject, only [Divination] spells and normal vision (grants the equivalent of Invisibility). The psionic version of Sequester is kinda pointless against other psions, and also for some inexplicable reason costs XP, when the spell version doesn't.
When you say "normal vision", are you referring to:

it also renders the affected creature or object invisible to any form of sight or seeing (as the invisibility spell).
Because I think it goes beyond that. Also in most campaigns psionics-magic transparency is applied, in which case:

For the purpose of psionics–magic transparency, clairsentience powers are equivalent to powers of the divination school (thus, creatures immune to divination spells are also immune to clairsentience powers).

[Crichton]

When you say "normal vision", are you referring to:

Yes. It makes you invisible, just as the Invisibility spell, which means you can't be seen by regular, normal vision. You can still be 'seen' by blindsight, mindsight (not a divination/clairsentience, so it would still detect you), touchsight, etc


Because I think it goes beyond that. Also in most campaigns psionics-magic transparency is applied, in which case:

Now why in the name of the holy Gygax himself is that piece of text not found in the section titled 'Psionics-Magic Transparency', where it should be, to be easily found by anyone looking for 'Psionics-Magic Transparency' information? Is it too much to ask to have all the relevant data for a topic that's quite specific be found under one heading? I've been doing this wrong for a while then, limiting what transparency applies to, to only that which is within the Psionics-Magic Transparency heading itself.

[Pippin]

Yes. It makes you invisible, just as the Invisibility spell, which means you can't be seen by regular, normal vision. You can still be 'seen' by blindsight, mindsight (not a divination/clairsentience, so it would still detect you), touchsight, etc
Is this the general consensus (link?) or is this your interpretation? Because I would be inclined to think that True Seeing, Arcane Sight and the like very much qualify as "forms of sight or seeing".

[Crichton]

Is this the general consensus (link?) or is this your interpretation? Because I would be inclined to think that True Seeing, Arcane Sight and the like very much qualify as "forms of sight or seeing".

Well, it does say the words "as the Invisibility spell" which would indicate that the "invisible to any form of sight or seeing" would only apply to things that the spell Invisibility would also apply to. I would say that's not a judgment, it's hard RAW.


Edit: As for 'forms of sight or seeing' - my 'interpretation' as you put it would be that they clearly intended those words to refer to the normal physical senses or equivalent, as evidenced by their 'as the Invisibility spell' parenthetical note.

[Pippin]

Well, it does say the words "as the Invisibility spell" which would indicate that the "invisible to any form of sight or seeing" would only apply to things that the spell Invisibility would also apply to. I would say that's not a judgment, it's hard RAW.


Edit: As for 'forms of sight or seeing' - my 'interpretation' as you put it would be that they clearly intended those words to refer to the normal physical senses or equivalent, as evidenced by their 'as the Invisibility spell' parenthetical note.
They used the term "invisible" so it doesn't surprise me that they mention the Invisibility spell to tell the reader what it means in D&D. I'm unsure about the rest. I think that, if they wanted the spell to work like you think it does, they simply would have dropped the "to any form of sight or seeing" part, and the "The spell does not prevent the subject from being discovered through tactile means or through the use of devices." part.

[Crichton]

They used the term "invisible" so it doesn't surprise me that they mention the Invisibility spell to tell the reader what it means in D&D. I'm unsure about the rest. I think that, if they wanted the spell to work like you think it does, they simply would have dropped the "to any form of sight or seeing" part.

I don't think so. If they'd said something like "As the Invisibility spell, except ______" then it could be what you're saying, but when it's "________, as the Invisibility spell" with no 'except' in there, I'm pretty sure it can only mean that the effect is the direct equivalent to the effect of Invisibility.

[Pippin]

I don't think so. If they'd said something like "As the Invisibility spell, except ______" then it could be what you're saying, but when it's "________, as the Invisibility spell" with no 'except' in there, I'm pretty sure it can only mean that the effect is the direct equivalent to the effect of Invisibility.
"As __________, except __________" is used when the spell header is mostly the same and they don't want to repeat it in full. If we start talking about the authors' habits though, I should say that when something is beaten by True Seeing, they most usually say it.

[Crichton]

"As __________, except __________" is used when the spell header is mostly the same and they don't want to repeat it in full. If we start talking about the authors' habits though, I should say that when something is beaten by True Seeing, they most usually say it.

I just can't come up with any plausible reading of " it also renders the affected creature or object invisible to any form of sight or seeing (as the invisibility spell)" that isn't just it being a direct equivalent to having Invisibility cast on them. That's what 'as the invisibility spell' means.

[Pippin]

I just can't come up with any plausible reading of " it also renders the affected creature or object invisible to any form of sight or seeing (as the invisibility spell)" that isn't just it being a direct equivalent to having Invisibility cast on them. That's what 'as the invisibility spell' means.
Well, lots of (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193013-How-to-stop-True-Seeing) people do (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?295988-Sequester-versus-True-Seeing-3-5). I didn't make that up, I checked with earlier discussions.

[Crichton]

Well, lots of (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193013-How-to-stop-True-Seeing) people do (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?295988-Sequester-versus-True-Seeing-3-5). I didn't make that up, I checked with earlier discussions.

Sequester also prevents detection from Divination spells, which True Seeing is, so the physical sight part being limited to the effects of Invisibility don't make any difference to True Seeing. It would prevent True Seeing from detecting the sequestered creature or object, even if it didn't have an invisibility effect on top of that.