Giving my player's Warlock a dilemma

[DMThac0]

I threw one of my players for a loop in our last session and now she's really caught on what choice to make.

The party met a tribe of Dragonborn, in my world they're like North American Indian tribes. When they were brought to the tribe's shaman the player was informed that it may be possible for the shaman to remove the connection to her Warlock patron. He went on to explain that, in his experience, these patrons were fiendish and prayed on the weak, catching them in their most vulnerable states and taking advantage of that. He talked with her a bit and, after a bit, softened his stance saying it was her choice as to what would happen with the connection to her patron. He softened his stance because the player explained that there was no pact made, simply a request by her patron to be it's eyes and ears, even referring to her as his avatar, in this realm in return for the powers she obtained.

Question:

As a player what would you do with this information?

As a DM how would you handle the situation if the player chose to have the connection to the patron severed?

*as always feel free to ask questions if you want more information*

[Segev]

As a player, if I were playing a Warlock with a "cursed by my patron and using his power reluctantly" backstory, I'd be kind-of annoyed if this came early in the story and with little effort on my character's part, because there'd be no reason to refuse, IC, and yet I, the player, would not have gotten to play what I wanted to play.

If I were playing a Warlock who had no problem with his patron, I'd just turn it down. The reasoning would be character-specific, from "No! This power is awesome! Nyarlaalzatos and I will show the world the folly of resisting our will! Nyahahahahahahahaha!" to "Zet-Matheg is a god of holy protection, and I am his willing champion against the dark," to "Nah, Mom and I get along great; didn't you realize I'm half-fey?"

As a DM, I'd let the player do whatever he wished, since I put the option before him. I'd work with the player to rebuild the character so he's not penalized for the choice, unless it was very appropriate (and fun to play) to have the cost of starting over at level 1 or retiring the character be a thing.

[Vogie]

I threw one of my players for a loop in our last session and now she's really caught on what choice to make.

The party met a tribe of Dragonborn, in my world they're like North American Indian tribes. When they were brought to the tribe's shaman the player was informed that it may be possible for the shaman to remove the connection to her Warlock patron. He went on to explain that, in his experience, these patrons were fiendish and prayed on the weak, catching them in their most vulnerable states and taking advantage of that. He talked with her a bit and, after a bit, softened his stance saying it was her choice as to what would happen with the connection to her patron. He softened his stance because the player explained that there was no pact made, simply a request by her patron to be it's eyes and ears, even referring to her as his avatar, in this realm in return for the powers she obtained.

Question:

As a player what would you do with this information?

As a DM how would you handle the situation if the player chose to have the connection to the patron severed?

*as always feel free to ask questions if you want more information*


You can do what you want with it. For example:

the shaman may not be telling the truth
the patron may not being ultimately fiendish & predatory
the PC may or may not retain their abilities if the connection is severed.


Things that could be useful to know:

The PC's stats and general playstyle thus far.
The patron
Interactions the patron has had with the PC in the past.

[Man_Over_Game]

As a Player, I'd ask what the risks were. It doesn't matter how big the interest is on a loan, if the loan is going to keep you alive. Sometimes, risk is acceptable. I'd also ask what my options were if the risk became too much, as a last resort in case s**t hits the fan. Depending on my relationship, I'd probably stick with it. The demons I know are better than the demons I don't. Still, it'd be nice to have an ace in the hole if my Patron ever goes Dark Side on me.

As a DM, I'd come up with ways to fill in that void. Obviously, they can't be bonded to the same Patron, so maybe that bond that was once attached to the patron is now attached to another power source. Maybe another Patron, maybe the Plane of Light (Celestial Warlock), maybe the Weave itself (turning her into a Wild Mage). Or maybe breaking that bond has her gain experiences that she would have had if she didn't make the bond (gaining an alternate reality's experience as a Bard or Swashbuckler Rogue).

[DMThac0]

As a player, if I were playing a Warlock with a "cursed by my patron and using his power reluctantly" backstory, I'd be kind-of annoyed if this came early in the story and with little effort on my character's part, because there'd be no reason to refuse, IC, and yet I, the player, would not have gotten to play what I wanted to play.

If I were playing a Warlock who had no problem with his patron, I'd just turn it down. The reasoning would be character-specific, from "No! This power is awesome! Nyarlaalzatos and I will show the world the folly of resisting our will! Nyahahahahahahahaha!" to "Zet-Matheg is a god of holy protection, and I am his willing champion against the dark," to "Nah, Mom and I get along great; didn't you realize I'm half-fey?"

The player in question has had this character for about 2 years, so I'm no springing it on them and making the multiclass choice obsolete in that sense. The patron was acquired as part of her character arc, she was looking for power to answer questions that seemed to be beyond normal means. However she's floundered about whether she made the right choice both IC and OOC, so I'm giving her something to really make her think.



As a DM, I'd let the player do whatever he wished, since I put the option before him. I'd work with the player to rebuild the character so he's not penalized for the choice, unless it was very appropriate (and fun to play) to have the cost of starting over at level 1 or retiring the character be a thing.

I don't want to reduce the character to level 1, the party is level 8, that kind of approach would be very detrimental. Part of me believes that the power she obtained as a Warlock would stay, it's not like a Cleric who channels their diety's power. With that I'm leaning toward making it so that she can no longer take Warlock levels. Another option that was presented was to replace the Warlock levels with something else, maybe Wizard or something like that.

[Kyutaru]

Looking at Warlocks and witches from a real world context, a pact with the dark one could be a similar eyes and ears and maybe a few favors now and then innocent-seeming thing. The player would have to make the call based on what they know about their master and his honesty tendencies. But as the DM, if you just severed a pact with the lord of hell then he's probably going to be right pissed and send a few minions.

None of that matters though. The interesting part is what happens AFTER the pact is severed to the Warlock's powers. A witch can leave her coven and turn against her master without losing her magic or the training she endured. Betrayal of the old ways happens and it simply means you made a powerful enemy. Maybe the pact being severed results in the Warlock losing all his powers... and maybe it doesn't. :smallamused:


Part of me believes that the power she obtained as a Warlock would stay, it's not like a Cleric who channels their diety's power. With that I'm leaning toward making it so that she can no longer take Warlock levels.

I would do this exact thing myself. Warlocks are gifted power, it's theirs now and they stay in the pact to continue to get more power. I'd let the player keep the power and forbid any more warlock levels unless they choose a different patron to ally with.

[Segev]

I don't want to reduce the character to level 1, the party is level 8, that kind of approach would be very detrimental. Part of me believes that the power she obtained as a Warlock would stay, it's not like a Cleric who channels their diety's power. With that I'm leaning toward making it so that she can no longer take Warlock levels. Another option that was presented was to replace the Warlock levels with something else, maybe Wizard or something like that.

Oh, sure, "you keep the powers you've gained so far; the Patron gave them to you and isn't powering them anymore" is a valid option. If she's not Pact of the Chain, then there's not even a sentient creature involved whose loyalty might come into question. If she is, then her familiar may have some...discussion, with her. May even be torn in its loyalties if it really likes her and really is her friend - in which case it's easy to ultimately justify it also severing ties to its otherworldly master and staying with her.

[Quoz]

Possible plot twist: the shaman isn't severing the connection, he is stealing it. The ritual transfers the patron's gift of power to the shaman or one of the warriors of the tribe.

If you go this route, use it as a way to explore the relationship between warlock and patron. The patron will obviously want that power back and to punish the mortals that tried to steal it. But the patron cannot intervene directly, that's why they use warlocks in the first place.

Until the warlock reclaims their power (through combat, magic, or trickery) have them be at greatly diminished arcane power - their spell slots are now only 1st level, they lose their invocations, or some similar level of hindrance.

[DMThac0]

**Lots of replies, block of text**



You can do what you want with it.
I get that I can do whatever I want, I'm just looking for more ideas that I can work off of, I like to have many options and ideas.

The patron she has is a Great Old One that I created since the whole "Cthulu" mind-bending patron didn't work for what she was trying to obtain. He's called The Grey, a being who's sole intent is to create balance as he sees it. The tricky part is this creature lives as the "core" of Limbo and is the only thing keeping Limbo from flying off into a million different directions and pieces. Much like the Githzeri, he has the psychic powers to create the calm needed to make Limbo habitable, but is so powerful that he can maintain Limbo in one plane/place. He does not seek power, control, or dominance, instead trying to create balance in the other realms as Limbo is seething chaos, it's cathartic to him.

The player started as an orphan, took levels in Monk, and began trying to figure out who she was and what happened to make her an orphan. She learned early on that any records that should have information on her were blank or empty, no one knew anything, it was as if something powerful had removed her existence. In a fit, after scouring material in a couple places, she lashed out at the gods and begged for answers from anywhere, thus a tenuous connection to The Grey was made. She has since obtained help in times of need from her patron, tried to find her place through fighting with her companions, beseeching a king, and talking to anyone she could about what a Warlock was. All the while trying to figure out the mystery of her past.


As a Player, I'd ask what the risks were. It doesn't matter how big the interest is on a loan, if the loan is going to keep you alive. Sometimes, risk is acceptable. I'd also ask what my options were if the risk became too much, as a last resort in case s**t hits the fan. Depending on my relationship, I'd probably stick with it. The demons I know are better than the demons I don't. Still, it'd be nice to have an ace in the hole if my Patron ever goes Dark Side on me.

That's amusing, that's kind of where my mind went, but the player is taking a different route right now. She's asked fellow players what they think, unfortunately she's been met with "That's a tough choice, not sure what you should do". She's asked me, not the NPC, what would happen if she severed the connection, and I can't answer it, not until next session if she decides to talk to the shaman again.



As a DM, I'd come up with ways to fill in that void. Obviously, they can't be bonded to the same Patron, so maybe that bond that was once attached to the patron is now attached to another power source. Maybe another Patron, maybe the Plane of Light (Celestial Warlock), maybe the Weave itself (turning her into a Wild Mage). Or maybe breaking that bond has her gain experiences that she would have had if she didn't make the bond (gaining an alternate reality's experience as a Bard or Swashbuckler Rogue).

I like the idea that the powers could translate into something completely different, I really enjoy the Wild Mage idea. I'd have to be careful though, I don't want the player to feel shafted, she is my wife...


Looking at Warlocks and witches from a real world context, a pact with the dark one could be a similar eyes and ears and maybe a few favors now and then innocent-seeming thing. The player would have to make the call based on what they know about their master and his honesty tendencies. But as the DM, if you just severed a pact with the lord of hell then he's probably going to be right pissed and send a few minions.


I'm toying with this thought as well, I don't see The Grey being vindictive, but I can see him being upset.


Oh, sure, "you keep the powers you've gained so far; the Patron gave them to you and isn't powering them anymore" is a valid option. If she's not Pact of the Chain, then there's not even a sentient creature involved whose loyalty might come into question. If she is, then her familiar may have some...discussion, with her. May even be torn in its loyalties if it really likes her and really is her friend - in which case it's easy to ultimately justify it also severing ties to its otherworldly master and staying with her.

She is Pact of the Chain and I know the possibility of losing her Pseudodragon would be heart breaking to her. This could make for some interesting RP in the future....


Possible plot twist: the shaman isn't severing the connection, he is stealing it. The ritual transfers the patron's gift of power to the shaman or one of the warriors of the tribe.

If you go this route, use it as a way to explore the relationship between warlock and patron. The patron will obviously want that power back and to punish the mortals that tried to steal it. But the patron cannot intervene directly, that's why they use warlocks in the first place.

Until the warlock reclaims their power (through combat, magic, or trickery) have them be at greatly diminished arcane power - their spell slots are now only 1st level, they lose their invocations, or some similar level of hindrance.

This is a really cool idea, and something I will have to put on the back burner! With the current campaign the choice to lose the patron is more of an emotional dilemma based on the player/character's choices and desires. Something to really pull on the heart strings and create drama.

[Chronos]

A warlock's familiar might or might not be an agent of the patron. Remember, it's possible to have a fiend as your patron, but have a familiar that's a celestial that takes the form of a pseudodragon. How does that work? I dunno; it's your character, you tell me.

[Man_Over_Game]

I like the idea that the powers could translate into something completely different, I really enjoy the Wild Mage idea. I'd have to be careful though, I don't want the player to feel shafted, she is my wife...

Good call. Consider having several choices if she goes that route, allowing her to pick one of the end results (build options). Then, explain what actually happened to cause her to become that. That way, there's still a change, but she doesn't inherently choose the narrative, only how she plays.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I'd have to be careful though, I don't want the player to feel shafted, she is my wife...
Unhelpful: That's a long standing no-no you broke. Play with, yes. DM for? No. And now you know why.

Helpful: Seems to me that the warlock becomes a sorc. They have internalized the magic, understand how to wield the magic, but lose the boons and invocations exclusive to warlock.

My reasoning for this is the oathbreaker in 5e, and in days of old (AD&D) that paladin became a fighter. (ADD PHB p21) "If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform on evil act, he or she loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost, and no deed or magic can restore the character to paladinhood; he or she is ever after a fighter."

Let her keep the levels, have her change class.

[Keravath]

My impression is that the warlock's knowledge comes from the patron but after that the warlock doesn't lose the knowledge if the patron is lost for some reason. They are an arcane caster who manipulates the weave directly similar to a sorcerer but with knowledge acquired from their patron rather than other sources.

The PHB even indicates that GOO patrons may not even be aware of the warlock as an individual so there is no clear indication that a patron would necessarily interact 1:1 with a character.

The shaman in this case has made the comment that all patrons are fiendish. This is pretty clearly incorrect so the player should realize that the shaman's knowledge is suspect to start with. Perhaps the shaman has only had dealing with fiendish patrons. Perhaps the shaman is a fiend warlock and they want to obtain some specific knowledge possessed by the Grey.

As for the player's existential dilemma about being a Monk/Warlock. I don't really see any inherent conflict or reason not to be a warlock. (why is she uncomfortable with it?) The character agreed to be the eyes and ears for this being in the prime material plane in exchange for helping the character find knowledge about their background and history. So far, it sounds as if the being hasn't been particularly helpful in that respect. Perhaps what the character needs are some more answers. (Unless the issue is the player being concerned about the mechanical effectiveness of a monk/warlock ... it can work very well if the character has the stats to support it ... but the warlock class is mostly a dip on a class that is focused on being a monk e.g. 5 monk/3 warlock can work quite well but 3 monk/ 5 warlock perhaps not so much).

[DMThac0]

Unhelpful: That's a long standing no-no you broke. Play with, yes. DM for? No. And now you know why.

The comment about her being my wife was an attempt at humor and insinuating that I'd be sleeping on the couch. I have been DMing long enough to know that fair play is paramount no matter who is sitting at the table.


Helpful: Seems to me that the warlock becomes a sorc. They have internalized the magic, understand how to wield the magic, but lose the boons and invocations exclusive to warlock.

My reasoning for this is the oathbreaker in 5e, and in days of old (AD&D) that paladin became a fighter. (ADD PHB p21) "If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform on evil act, he or she loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost, and no deed or magic can restore the character to paladinhood; he or she is ever after a fighter."

Let her keep the levels, have her change class.

I remember oathbreaker, it was one of the greatest causes for Lawful Stupid at my tables... That aside, you bring up a good idea that piggy backs Man_Over_Game's idea. It's a bit harsh, but if you view the Patron/Warlock power exchange as a contract rather than a gift, it could easily take that route.

[Unoriginal]

In my experience, there would be at least one player who'd want to know how this shaman's ability to break Warlock's Pacts work and maybe what's the story behind it. Regardless of if there is any Warlock interested in experiencing it.

[DMThac0]

In my experience, there would be at least one player who'd want to know how this shaman's ability to break Warlock's Pacts work and maybe what's the story behind it. Regardless of if there is any Warlock interested in experiencing it.

Of course you have to bring up the one question my players didn't bother to ask...now I have to answer it *sigh*.

My gut response, as I'm literally making this up as I type, is to go with something from the video game Ni No Kuni. The shaman is able to see the mystical "thread" that connects the Patron and Warlock. With this "gift" he's capable of reaching out and severing the thread causing the connection to cease.

[Vogie]

The patron she has is a Great Old One that I created since the whole "Cthulu" mind-bending patron didn't work for what she was trying to obtain. He's called The Grey, a being who's sole intent is to create balance as he sees it. The tricky part is this creature lives as the "core" of Limbo and is the only thing keeping Limbo from flying off into a million different directions and pieces. Much like the Githzeri, he has the psychic powers to create the calm needed to make Limbo habitable, but is so powerful that he can maintain Limbo in one plane/place. He does not seek power, control, or dominance, instead trying to create balance in the other realms as Limbo is seething chaos, it's cathartic to him.

The player started as an orphan, took levels in Monk, and began trying to figure out who she was and what happened to make her an orphan. She learned early on that any records that should have information on her were blank or empty, no one knew anything, it was as if something powerful had removed her existence. In a fit, after scouring material in a couple places, she lashed out at the gods and begged for answers from anywhere, thus a tenuous connection to The Grey was made. She has since obtained help in times of need from her patron, tried to find her place through fighting with her companions, beseeching a king, and talking to anyone she could about what a Warlock was. All the while trying to figure out the mystery of her past.

That's a really cool patron. In that case, The Grey would likely not withdraw the powers imbued upon the PC were she attempt to sever the connection - her skills are tied to creating that balance.

Alternatively, the shaman can suggest that she can change her patron to one of their demideities, offering the services of the saint/ancestor/manifestation of knowledge/mysteries - she'd still act as a warlock, but would shift her Patron from GOO to Seeker.

[DMThac0]

The shaman in this case has made the comment that all patrons are fiendish. This is pretty clearly incorrect so the player should realize that the shaman's knowledge is suspect to start with. Perhaps the shaman has only had dealing with fiendish patrons. Perhaps the shaman is a fiend warlock and they want to obtain some specific knowledge possessed by the Grey.


This is actually something that I'm hoping my player catches on to. I tried to lay it on a little thick without shoving it in her face that there was a bit of a disconnect in his view and her situation.



As for the player's existential dilemma about being a Monk/Warlock. I don't really see any inherent conflict or reason not to be a warlock. (why is she uncomfortable with it?) The character agreed to be the eyes and ears for this being in the prime material plane in exchange for helping the character find knowledge about their background and history. So far, it sounds as if the being hasn't been particularly helpful in that respect. Perhaps what the character needs are some more answers. (Unless the issue is the player being concerned about the mechanical effectiveness of a monk/warlock ... it can work very well if the character has the stats to support it ... but the warlock class is mostly a dip on a class that is focused on being a monk e.g. 5 monk/3 warlock can work quite well but 3 monk/ 5 warlock perhaps not so much).

She's got an issue both mechanically and RP wise.

Firstly, the patron has not been able to provide any information on her yet, other than she's got latent power that could shape the future of the world. Now that there's some down time, the first major story arc is finished, the players are starting to investigate their own story arcs. I've put this dilemma in to see if she'll continue to push The Grey for information or sever the connection thinking he's not going to be able to help as he promised. With people mentioning the familiar, I may use it as a conduit for communication, maybe make the Patron bargain to keep her as his eyes an ears in promise of a more directed effort in gathering information.

Mechanically, she did end up going 5 shadow monk/3 goo warlock. She is starting to put together combinations and uses that make her feel more powerful, but for the longest time she felt underwhelmed by what she could do. This was her first big campaign/character and she ended up with a build that sounded cool but she didn't quite understand how it would tie together. She'd only played 3.5 before this and it was a transition. We're 2 years into the game, level 8, and she's finally feeling like the character is becoming hers.

[The Kool]

Unpopular opinion: A warlock doesn't technically need to be bound to anyone. The powers have been awoken in her, once the bond is severed she can continue to develop and grow those powers on her own. Alternately, it would be fitting to rework those levels over to Sorcerer, or even to another class. If it were my table, I would make the player lose the levels in question entirely, and earn them back at a rapid rate to quickly catch back up over the course of a few sessions. There's a void of lost power, but you begin to realize that you've actually grown a lot, and didn't need to use this crutch, so now you're figuring out how far you've come without realizing.

[Kurt Kurageous]

In my experience, there would be at least one player who'd want to know how this shaman's ability to break Warlock's Pacts work and maybe what's the story behind it. Regardless of if there is any Warlock interested in experiencing it.

I'd key that to an artifact attuned to the shaman, non transferrable to a non shaman.

[DMThac0]

Unpopular opinion: A warlock doesn't technically need to be bound to anyone. The powers have been awoken in her, once the bond is severed she can continue to develop and grow those powers on her own. Alternately, it would be fitting to rework those levels over to Sorcerer, or even to another class. If it were my table, I would make the player lose the levels in question entirely, and earn them back at a rapid rate to quickly catch back up over the course of a few sessions. There's a void of lost power, but you begin to realize that you've actually grown a lot, and didn't need to use this crutch, so now you're figuring out how far you've come without realizing.

As much as I dislike the idea of stripping levels, I rather like the idea of self-revelation and self-discovery. This type of approach would definitely have to be discussed before action is taken. Have the Shaman very blatantly explain that anything to do with the Warlock powers would be absolved and removed, levels, invocations, familiars, spells, etc. Then talk to the player about how they want to rebuild their character, out of game, so that the game can still move forward in a way that the player can feel like they're rewarded for their RP and the party isn't bogged down by a low level tag-along.

[Segev]

Of course you have to bring up the one question my players didn't bother to ask...now I have to answer it *sigh*.

My gut response, as I'm literally making this up as I type, is to go with something from the video game Ni No Kuni. The shaman is able to see the mystical "thread" that connects the Patron and Warlock. With this "gift" he's capable of reaching out and severing the thread causing the connection to cease.

This makes me conceive of it as akin to an astral silver cord. Not quite the same thing, but the same...kind of thing. Maybe the shaman has a Githyanki Silver Sword that's an ancient artifact passed down through the generations whose source has been forgotten.

[Man_Over_Game]

As much as I dislike the idea of stripping levels, I rather like the idea of self-revelation and self-discovery. This type of approach would definitely have to be discussed before action is taken. Have the Shaman very blatantly explain that anything to do with the Warlock powers would be absolved and removed, levels, invocations, familiars, spells, etc. Then talk to the player about how they want to rebuild their character, out of game, so that the game can still move forward in a way that the player can feel like they're rewarded for their RP and the party isn't bogged down by a low level tag-along.

The fix I've used for a level 1 rebuild is to have it be that the player earns x2 experience, until they're same level as the highest level player in the group. The idea is that they have ADVENTURING experience, but they just lose out on how to use their original powers. You'll also want to jack up their hitpoints, as that's a major factor in the difference between power levels.

[DMThac0]

This makes me conceive of it as akin to an astral silver cord. Not quite the same thing, but the same...kind of thing. Maybe the shaman has a Githyanki Silver Sword that's an ancient artifact passed down through the generations whose source has been forgotten.

Considering The Grey was inspired by the idea that it is the "original Gith" before they were split into the 2 factions and before the Illithid enslaved them, this could work very well.


The fix I've used for a level 1 rebuild is to have it be that the player earns x2 experience, until they're same level as the highest level player in the group. The idea is that they have ADVENTURING experience, but they just lose out on how to use their original powers. You'll also want to jack up their hitpoints, as that's a major factor in the difference between power levels.

Seeing as she'd only lose 3 levels, I could simply leave the HP as is and have her catch up fast using the x2 xp approach, then adjust the HP if needed based on the class she chooses to replace those 3 levels with.

[Keravath]

She's got an issue both mechanically and RP wise.

Firstly, the patron has not been able to provide any information on her yet, other than she's got latent power that could shape the future of the world. Now that there's some down time, the first major story arc is finished, the players are starting to investigate their own story arcs. I've put this dilemma in to see if she'll continue to push The Grey for information or sever the connection thinking he's not going to be able to help as he promised. With people mentioning the familiar, I may use it as a conduit for communication, maybe make the Patron bargain to keep her as his eyes an ears in promise of a more directed effort in gathering information.

Mechanically, she did end up going 5 shadow monk/3 goo warlock. She is starting to put together combinations and uses that make her feel more powerful, but for the longest time she felt underwhelmed by what she could do. This was her first big campaign/character and she ended up with a build that sounded cool but she didn't quite understand how it would tie together. She'd only played 3.5 before this and it was a transition. We're 2 years into the game, level 8, and she's finally feeling like the character is becoming hers.

If she only just reached monk 5 .. which sounds likely given her backstory then it is really no wonder that she feels underpowered up to now. Lack of both extra attack and stun would leave her underperforming others in combat by a significant amount even with a cool familiar and the warlock abilities. However, when she hits shadow monk 6 things will become even more fun with the shadow teleport abilities assuming she took/takes devils sight. Also, mechanically, the character is entirely short rest resource based so they will get everything back on a short rest ... which is on the DM to make relevant :)

As for the backstory ... I wouldn't expect The Grey to necessarily provide direct answers but they might have some knowledge of where to look or who to consult for guidance and information.

Anyway, the Grey sounds about as innocuous a patron as you are likely to find. Just based on what you've said in this thread I'd say that the combination should work both from a role play perspective and going forward from a mechanical perspective.

[The Kool]

Seeing as she'd only lose 3 levels, I could simply leave the HP as is and have her catch up fast using the x2 xp approach, then adjust the HP if needed based on the class she chooses to replace those 3 levels with.

2x XP is a little slower than I pictured. I'd actually suggest leaving XP where it is and continuing to earn as normal along with the rest of the party, then regaining a lost level at every appropriate milestone (1-3 sessions, depending on length of session, plot speed, and frequency of play) until their level matches what their XP says it should. This reinforces the feel that they aren't having to grind back up, but they actually have learned from these experiences and are simply having to exercise their own potential and rediscover what they're capable of. I would definitely leave the HP and Proficiency bonus untouched though, since those are going right back to where they are now and have a major impact on whether the character is tagging along or participating. If the character would have wound up with fewer HP after the rework, they get a bonus for their experiences. If they would wind up with more, then you should give them the increased XP as they level through it.

[Cynthaer]

That's amusing, that's kind of where my mind went, but the player is taking a different route right now. She's asked fellow players what they think, unfortunately she's been met with "That's a tough choice, not sure what you should do". She's asked me, not the NPC, what would happen if she severed the connection, and I can't answer it, not until next session if she decides to talk to the shaman again.

[...]

This is a really cool idea, and something I will have to put on the back burner! With the current campaign the choice to lose the patron is more of an emotional dilemma based on the player/character's choices and desires. Something to really pull on the heart strings and create drama.

Since the player and character seem to be in sync, and are both uncertain whether they want this or not, my inclination would be to make the player/character choose without knowing what the outcome will be. Like, I would have the in-universe answer to "so what will happen to me" be "I don't know, it affects everyone differently".

From your description, I think this approach to "immersion" will be fun for this particular player—ultimately, she'll need to decide if she wants this enough to take a risk in pursuing it.

Then, if she does choose to sever, I would either (A) choose a drastic but balanced change so there's a real impact to her decision, or (B) have her roll for the outcome from a list of outcomes, all of which are secret but similarly balanced.

Some mechanical outcomes I consider to be basically balanced for our purposes:

No change. She retains her warlock abilities and can take more warlock levels. ("The spark of magic belongs to you now. Do with it what you will.")
No new warlock levels. She keeps what she has, but can't progress as a warlock. ("You keep what you've learned, but with the connection gone, that's it.")
All warlock levels convert to Wild Magic sorcerer levels. Keep all of her warlock spells known as her sorcerer spells known and let her keep the pseudodragon. ("Tearing your magic away from the source has made it unstable—but now it's truly yours.")
All warlock levels convert to monk levels. Let her keep the pseudodragon. ("The connection is gone—and with it, everything that came from it. Well, almost everything.")
All warlock levels convert to levels in another class of the player's choice. Let her keep the pseudodragon. ("The connection pulls you into the swirling chaos of Limbo. A million versions of yourself reach their hands out to you. Which one do you take?")

Personally, I consider losing actual levels to be awkward and annoying, because it's just going to make your encounter balance all weird. IMO, just turning her from a Monk 5/Warlock 3 into a Monk 8 works just fine to represent "losing warlock powers".

Similarly, if she's going to (potentially) choose a different class to take levels in, I think it's easier to just get those levels during the ritual and be done with it. And since chaos and Limbo are already involved, they're a perfect excuse to do it.

You'll also note that I've let her keep the pseudodragon no matter what. Yeah, sure, in several cases she's getting an entire warlock class feature for free, but IMO focusing on that misses the point. She made an in-character decision, risked everything (from her perspective) to do what she needed to do, and experienced a radical change as a result—but in the end, she kept her pseudodragon friend!

That's an exciting story!

(Alternative approach: Take any outcome I listed above, add "but she loses the pseudodragon" to the end, and immediately give them a way to recover the pseudodragon familiar via sidequest or main quest. You can have sadness and drama, just respect the familiar as a character in its own right, not just a feature that you can take away purely for balance reasons.)

[Segev]

On keeping the pseudodragon, the MM entry for pseudodragons mentions that they can choose to become familiars for some people on their own. It's essentially like a treasure reward: extra and not accounted for in build mechanics. If you want her to keep the pseudodragon but she's losing Warlock, make it get locked into the form and become one for real, and shift to using the pseudodragon-as-familiars rules from the MM.

[The Kool]

On the topic of keeping the pseudodragon, even if you go for a full rebuild: This is fine. Consider it an adventuring reward, if you will. Sometimes these take the form of new abilities not defined by our race and class, and not just loot.

[Kyutaru]

Personally, I consider losing actual levels to be awkward and annoying, because it's just going to make your encounter balance all weird. IMO, just turning her from a Monk 5/Warlock 3 into a Monk 8 works just fine to represent "losing warlock powers".

Similarly, if she's going to (potentially) choose a different class to take levels in, I think it's easier to just get those levels during the ritual and be done with it. And since chaos and Limbo are already involved, they're a perfect excuse to do it.

DM: As the ritual completes and your connection fades, you glimpse into the great beyond and a flood of unspeakable imagery rushes through your mind.
PC: *wakes up* I know Kung-fu...

[DMThac0]

snip...

That's a really interesting way to take it and I rather like the way you've made it so that it incorporates player choice with the mechanical decisions I'd have to make as DM. Tying it into the many fractions of Limbo/chaos and having her pick which "reality" she will be part of from that point forward really resonates with me. I have a strong fascination with time travel, paradoxes, string theory, etc.


DM: As the ritual completes and your connection fades, you glimpse into the great beyond and a flood of unspeakable imagery rushes through your mind.
PC: *wakes up* I know Kung-fu...

Great, now I have to make the Drow invent Pleather/PVC clothing... as if they aren't edgy enough.

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I'm pleased to see a lot of folks advocating for ways to keep the Pseudodraogon, I think it would crush my play if she lost him.