Max Hand 3.5

[Mind's Eye]

Welcome to my new character for 3.5: Maximillian P. Hand, monk extraordinaire. My goal: get as many hands as possible. With whatever supplement or campaign setting needed. Please help

[The Kool]

Hands usually come from extra arms. Permanencied Savage Species (3.0) version of Girallon's Blessing.

EDIT: Okay there's an awkward clause in the 3.0 version about not getting extra attacks. It does get you more arms than the 3.5 version, but if you want to attack then you'll want the 3.5 version. See if you can still get it permanencied, though (this was added to the Permanency list in Savage Species).

[ShurikVch]

Warning: unless you're want to make a weapon-using Monk (or a build which rely on natural weapons), number of hands didn't matter - you get just one Unarmed Strike regardless

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thri-Kreen (XPH) gets four arms. There's a nonpsionic version in Shining South that has only a +1 LA instead of +2, but you're still stuck with two racial HD.

Insectile Creature in Savage Species gives you four more arms for a +2 LA, and your type is Aberration.

So that's eight arms for 2 RHD and a +3 LA.

Take Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiweaponFighting) and get Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) which should give you Improved Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiweaponFighting), since it grants Improved Two-Weapon Fighting normally and Improved Multiweapon Fighting specifically says it replaces that feat for creatures with more than two arms.

With just multiweapon fighting penalties you'll get your iterative attacks from BAB with your mainhand attacks at -2 to hit, then two attacks with each of your seven secondary arms at -2 to hit. Flurry of Blows gives you one more mainhand attack in exchange for taking an additional penalty on all of your attacks that round. If you take Snap Kick (ToB) you can get one more attack in exchange for an additional -2 with all your attacks.


Edit:


Warning: unless you're want to make a weapon-using Monk (or a build which rely on natural weapons), number of hands didn't matter - you get just one Unarmed Strike regardless

This is absolutely wrong. There's nothing preventing a Monk from using two-weapon fighting or multiweapon fighting to get additional attacks when using unarmed strikes. This was addressed extensively in the FAQ, and nothing in the RAW contradicts that.

[flappeercraft]

Not sure if it works since it's something I just came up with and I'm afb but theoretically since Unarmed Strikes are counted as Natural Weapons and Warshaper has no limit to the amount of Morphic Weapons they can create, a Warshaper could grow NI Unarmed Strikes and as such can grow NI limbs.

[Darrin]

The TWF OffHandbook has a section on how to gain additional hands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034748&postcount=12), so that's probably worth a look.

If you go the graft route... since grafts are considered non-magical, you could duplicate a bunch of 'em with metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) tricks (kill your duplicate, keep his non-magical stuff).


Thri-Kreen (XPH) gets four arms. There's a nonpsionic version in Shining South that has only a +1 LA instead of +2, but you're still stuck with two racial HD.


Diopsid in the Dragon Compendium has no racial HD and only LA +1, so that might be another option.



This is absolutely wrong. There's nothing preventing a Monk from using two-weapon fighting or multiweapon fighting to get additional attacks when using unarmed strikes. This was addressed extensively in the FAQ, and nothing in the RAW contradicts that.

Pedantic Nitpick: Actually, the FAQ doesn't definitively address whether unarmed strike is treated as a single weapon or can be treated as multiple weapons. All of the examples in the FAQ discuss mixing TWF with monk weapons of the manufactured variety. So it's still a bit of a head-scratcher.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Pedantic Nitpick: Actually, the FAQ doesn't definitively address whether unarmed strike is treated as a single weapon or can be treated as multiple weapons. All of the examples in the FAQ discuss mixing TWF with monk weapons of the manufactured variety. So it's still a bit of a head-scratcher.

True, but it was also covered in an issue of Dragon magazine (the one with a silver dragon on the cover, I don't remember which it is), as well as a series of Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) articles. Both of which say that unarmed strikes can be used as offhand attacks when fighting with two/multiple weapons.

[Telonius]

I'm guessing some sort of Persistent Spectral Hand / Regeneration shenanigans is not what you're looking for? :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

If you're willing to use them primarily to deliver touch spells, an at-will item of spectral hand would cost you 10,800 gp, as would a similar at-will item of false life (to be cast every few activations of the spectral hand item to keep it from sucking down real hp). Get yourself, then, an at-will touch spell of some sort that you can store on each of those hands, and they're able to have a lot of touch attacks.

[ShurikVch]

This is absolutely wrong. There's nothing preventing a Monk from using two-weapon fighting or multiweapon fighting to get additional attacks when using unarmed strikes.There is one thing which prevents it: everybody have one - and only one - Unarmed Strike.
How can you TWF(/MWF) with just one weapon?*

And if you're suggesting to include US in attack routine along with other - manufactured or natural - weapons, then how exactly, your point contradicting my?

*Actually, City Brawler Barbarian ACF (Dragon #349) does give "Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, as well as the effects of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when fighting unarmed". Unfortunately, it's not too specific about how it actually works. (For example, it says "when fighting unarmed"; with IUS, "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed") And it - by the RAW - doesn't depend on the hand number: Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/naga.htm) City Brawler Barbarian would TWF no worse than Human (or Marilith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith) :smallbiggrin:)

[Particle_Man]

Hand of the Mage? :smallbiggrin:


https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/hand-of-the-mage/

[Darrin]

True, but it was also covered in an issue of Dragon magazine (the one with a silver dragon on the cover, I don't remember which it is), as well as a series of Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) articles. Both of which say that unarmed strikes can be used as offhand attacks when fighting with two/multiple weapons.

Yes, I'm aware of that... but at no point does the FAQ, Rules of the Game, or Sage Advice ever put into actual black-and-white print that your singular unarmed strike can be both your *primary* and *offhand* attack in the same attack routine. If you read the FAQ/Rules of the Game carefully, you may notice that in each case the author assumes that the primary weapon is a manufactured or monk weapon.

There's a huge wall of text in my offhandbook about this. (As for me personally, I allow unarmed strikes to represent multiple striking surfaces in my own games.) But with regards to RAW, the guidance/rulings we have in print sort of go up to the edge of allowing unarmed strikes to be both primary and offhand, but don't actually cross the line into actual print.

(The Kensai PrC is as close as we get to the rules treating two "fists" as separate weapons, but it's not clear if the designers really understood their own rules with regards to unarmed strikes, since it's not necessarily assumed that an unarmed strike is going to use "fist" or "foot" or "headbutt" or whatever.)

[Segev]

It doesn't seem like such a big deal to put a light monk weapon in each off-hand.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yes, I'm aware of that... but at no point does the FAQ, Rules of the Game, or Sage Advice ever put into actual black-and-white print that your singular unarmed strike can be both your *primary* and *offhand* attack in the same attack routine. If you read the FAQ/Rules of the Game carefully, you may notice that in each case the author assumes that the primary weapon is a manufactured or monk weapon.

There's a huge wall of text in my offhandbook about this. (As for me personally, I allow unarmed strikes to represent multiple striking surfaces in my own games.) But with regards to RAW, the guidance/rulings we have in print sort of go up to the edge of allowing unarmed strikes to be both primary and offhand, but don't actually cross the line into actual print.

(The Kensai PrC is as close as we get to the rules treating two "fists" as separate weapons, but it's not clear if the designers really understood their own rules with regards to unarmed strikes, since it's not necessarily assumed that an unarmed strike is going to use "fist" or "foot" or "headbutt" or whatever.)

Think of it like this: The unarmed strike is a weapon that you're able to wield with any of your hands. Just because one hand is wielding it, doesn't mean your other hand can't also wield it. This is spelled out in the Monk Unarmed Strike class feature, after all. So there's no reason you wouldn't be able to take TWF penalties to attack with an unarmed strike using each hand.

[SirNibbles]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524769-100-Fists-The-Centipede-Monk
I can get you 100 hands via the Wild Shape Hands (Su) ability granted by the Fangshields Druid's 5th Substitution Level (Champions of Valor, page 41).

It's potentially definitely cheesy but almost certainly legal. It all depends on the interpretation of the ability.

"Wild Shape Hands (Su): At 5th level, a Fangshields druid can use her wild shape ability to create simple dexterous hands if she doesn’t have them already. For example, a giant eagle, lammasu, or unicorn could use wild shape to change her feet, paws, or hooves into hands that work as well as human hands. These hands lose any natural attacks they previously possessed, but otherwise still function like their original shape (a unicorn could walk or run at normal speed on her hoof-hands, for example). She can make this change whenever she uses her wild shape, even when she assumes another form. For example, a unicorn druid could take the form of a wolf with functional paw-hands. This benefit is in addition to the standard druid’s wild shape ability."
- Champions of Valor, page 41

If you care about the multihand part of the build coming online as soon as possible (6th level), use this:

TN Anthropomorphic Bat Pugilist Fighter 1/Fangshields Druid 5

Str 5
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 23 (+1 at 4th level to 24)
Cha 6

1- Druid 1 - Child of Winter
2- Druid 2
3- Druid 3 - Weapon Finesse
4- Pugilist Fighter 1 - Granted Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike; Endurance | Fighter Bonus Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
5- Druid 4
6- Fangshields Druid 5 - Vermin Shape

Pugilist Fighter is from Dragon Magazine #310, page 37.

[ExLibrisMortis]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524769-100-Fists-The-Centipede-Monk
I can get you 100 hands via the Wild Shape Hands (Su) ability granted by the Fangshields Druid's 5th Substitution Level (Champions of Valor, page 41).
Nice :smallbiggrin:.


The Obah-Blessed template gives you two or four extra arms. Fairly significant LA, but not entirely unplayable at higher levels.

[Saintheart]

Now that Obah-Blessed has been mentioned I have no options to add, only bad puns, such as the fact this character will doubtless take unarmed strike and thus be quite proficient in hand-to-hand-to-hand-to-hand-to-hand combat.

[Vizzerdrix]

You want hands, not arms? I can get you infinite.

You will need a good umd check, regeneration, time, (an ageless race works best), and lastly, a wand/scepter/djore(the thing from eberron) containing the spell create crawling claw. And shapesand. I almost forgot about the shapesand.

Step one- cut off your hands. Turn the shapesand into whatever tool you choose for this. I prefer a paper cutter. Just jam your hands in and kneel on the handle.

Step two- activate the magical item. You now have two loyal hand minions.

Step three- wait a few weeks. Your hands will regrow. It is recommended to NOT use them during the stage of regrowth commonly known as "baby hands" stage. Use of the hands at that point in the regeneration cycle has been known to lead to early onset carpal tunnel, arthritis, and even blindness.

Step four- go to step one.

[SirNibbles]

You want hands, not arms? I can get you infinite.

You will need a good umd check, regeneration, time, (an ageless race works best), and lastly, a wand/scepter/djore(the thing from eberron) containing the spell create crawling claw. And shapesand. I almost forgot about the shapesand.

Step one- cut off your hands. Turn the shapesand into whatever tool you choose for this. I prefer a paper cutter. Just jam your hands in and kneel on the handle.

Step two- activate the magical item. You now have two loyal hand minions.

Step three- wait a few weeks. Your hands will regrow. It is recommended to NOT use them during the stage of regrowth commonly known as "baby hands" stage. Use of the hands at that point in the regeneration cycle has been known to lead to early onset carpal tunnel, arthritis, and even blindness.

Step four- go to step one.

That is technically creating hand-like creatures, not getting more hands.

[Buufreak]

Nice :smallbiggrin:.


The Obah-Blessed template gives you two or four extra arms. Fairly significant LA, but not entirely unplayable at higher levels.

Came specifically to mention this template. I think its la is 3, but gives 4 arms, good chunk of str, huge dex, and I believe a feat or two in the multi weapon tree.

Now, onto the actual topic, regardless of arms max hand is 7. (No idea how to do blue text on phone.)

[Vizzerdrix]

That is technically creating hand-like creatures, not getting more hands.

Hmm... but then we can equip them all with finger rings, making them armed. That would ma,e them handy to have around. [/bluetext]

[SirNibbles]

Came specifically to mention this template. I think its la is 3, but gives 4 arms, good chunk of str, huge dex, and I believe a feat or two in the multi weapon tree.

Now, onto the actual topic, regardless of arms max hand is 7. (No idea how to do blue text on phone.)

(COLOR="#0000FF") text (/COLOR)

Replace the parentheses with square brackets. Or in your mobile browser, go to the ... and select 'Desktop Site', which will give you the same options as if you were on a computer.


_____

For those who want the source, Obah-Blessed is from Dungeon Magazine #136, page 61. It has two options: +2 arms or +4 arms. You cannot use this template on a creature which already has more than 4 arms.

+2 arms gives +2 Str +4 Dex +2 Con +4 Cha
+4 arms gives +4 Str +6 Dex +4 Con +6 Cha

Both grant Multiweapon Fighting for free.

[MisterKaws]

You can technically make infinite tentacles with Warshaper, and then use a single set of Gloves of Man to make them all tentacle-hands.

[SirNibbles]

Not sure if it works since it's something I just came up with and I'm afb but theoretically since Unarmed Strikes are counted as Natural Weapons and Warshaper has no limit to the amount of Morphic Weapons they can create, a Warshaper could grow NI Unarmed Strikes and as such can grow NI limbs.


You can technically make infinite tentacles with Warshaper, and then use a single set of Gloves of Man to make them all tentacle-hands.


How are you getting infinite tentacles or other natural weapons? It says if you already have that type of natural weapon it instead increases the damage it deals.

[MisterKaws]

How are you getting infinite tentacles or other natural weapons? It says if you already have that type of natural weapon it instead increases the damage it deals.

It's a word play: if the form itself has a weapon of that type, it grows, if not, it just adds a new natural attack. Even if you add another attack to the character, the form still doesn't have it. So...

And if you consider it the other way, you can resize natural weapons to infinity, since it just says one category larger, not one category larger than the form's size.

It's cheese, but works by RAW.

[animewatcha]

Nothing is stopping you from using someone else's hands/arm. Chop them off. Slice, however you obtain them. For extra flavor. Take Improved Unarmed Strike. Chances are you are choosing a class that is proficient in simple weapon ( unarmed strike ) anyway.

[Segev]

It's a word play: if the form itself has a weapon of that type, it grows, if not, it just adds a new natural attack. Even if you add another attack to the character, the form still doesn't have it. So...

And if you consider it the other way, you can resize natural weapons to infinity, since it just says one category larger, not one category larger than the form's size.

It's cheese, but works by RAW.

The second way is the more logical way to read it, and I think there’s a relevant non-stacking general rule that Warshaper does not alter.

[ShurikVch]

You want hands, not arms? I can get you infinite.

You will need a good umd check, regeneration, time, (an ageless race works best), and lastly, a wand/scepter/djore(the thing from eberron) containing the spell create crawling claw. And shapesand. I almost forgot about the shapesand.

Step one- cut off your hands. Turn the shapesand into whatever tool you choose for this. I prefer a paper cutter. Just jam your hands in and kneel on the handle.

Step two- activate the magical item. You now have two loyal hand minions.

Step three- wait a few weeks. Your hands will regrow. It is recommended to NOT use them during the stage of regrowth commonly known as "baby hands" stage. Use of the hands at that point in the regeneration cycle has been known to lead to early onset carpal tunnel, arthritis, and even blindness.

Step four- go to step one.The next logical step should be a Symbiotic Creature with Crawling Claw swarm as a "guest" :smallsmile:



It doesn't seem like such a big deal to put a light monk weapon in each off-hand.1. By my impression (which may be inaccurate), OP intended to make PC which would deliver tons of palm strikes, not swinging a pile of weapons (with abysmal accuracy)
2. Most of monk weapons are kinda meh: if Monk's Unarmed Strike at least benefits from increased damage die, monk weapons are got no damage increase at all - no SA (Sleeping Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger) is limited 1/round) and no Power Attack (unless we will stick to quarterstaves)



http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524769-100-Fists-The-Centipede-Monk
I can get you 100 hands via the Wild Shape Hands (Su) ability granted by the Fangshields Druid's 5th Substitution Level (Champions of Valor, page 41).The linked thread contain (IMHO) many sound argument about why it doesn't work
I wouldn't repeat them
Instead, I point you to Uvuudaum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/uvuudaum.htm):

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44184_C5_Uvuudaum.jpg

See the hands? And no extra attacks...

[SirNibbles]

The next logical step should be a Symbiotic Creature with Crawling Claw swarm as a "guest" :smallsmile:


1. By my impression (which may be inaccurate), OP intended to make PC which would deliver tons of palm strikes, not swinging a pile of weapons (with abysmal accuracy)
2. Most of monk weapons are kinda meh: if Monk's Unarmed Strike at least benefits from increased damage die, monk weapons are got no damage increase at all - no SA (Sleeping Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger) is limited 1/round) and no Power Attack (unless we will stick to quarterstaves)


The linked thread contain (IMHO) many sound argument about why it doesn't work
I wouldn't repeat them
Instead, I point you to Uvuudaum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/uvuudaum.htm):

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44184_C5_Uvuudaum.jpg

See the hands? And no extra attacks...

There's no point arguing whether offhand UAS is a thing. It's not the purpose of the thread. The goal is to get the most hands. The only possible dispute with that in my original centipede thread was this:


It's not clear that you can gain more than two hands or that ALL limbs transform. But I can see such a reading.

As there is no limit stated, I would lean towards RAW allowing more than two hands to be shaped. RAI is completely unclear in this case, and a DM could go either way.

[Endarire]

Super-high caster level with Reserves of Strength feat most beneficial reading of RAW (to totally remove caster level cap) on shapechange for Hecatoncheires (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hecatoncheires). Add other means of getting more arms/hands to taste.