Questions before I make a [Class]

[DracoDei]

I am fairly new to 5e. In the campaign I am in we just hit 10th level. Since about 3rd level I have been playing a homebrew class I converted from my 3.x works.

One of the other players said he would like to see a full write-up of the class, but before I attempt that, I wanted to ask a few questions.

What do people mean when they say "ribbon" or "ribbon level"?

I have about seven different archetypes, including a few ones that I suspect are going to draw flak:
1.) One that in most campaigns is mechanically better suited for an NPC. The fluff is really good, it is just that most of the abilities you get aren't the most useful to an adventurer.
2.) One that only gives you defensive abilities. I created it because the 3.x versions have gotten some critique that the class would tend to get killed a lot, despite strong defense already being a theme for them. This opinion may have been a statistical outlier, but since it IS a theme, and all of these archetypes build on themes already present in the class, I thought it couldn't hurt to include one that built on that theme. It would also help newbies to the class, since a lot of their active abilities involve debuffing themselves in one way or another.

The question then becomes "Should i post it with all the archetypes I have written up first, only the ones I am fairly sure on the progression of, or limit it to only 3 at the start, so as not to overwhelm people?" Of course, I intend to post everything eventually (knowing me that might be "a week later", "a year later", or "the 32nd of Never").

Speaking of Archetypes, one of them grants spellcasting. Now, of course, the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster do that too, but those are Arcane, while this will be MOSTLY Divine. I'm planning on giving them their full spell list rather than having to pick which spells to learn. The class is already SORTA a full-caster, and definitely is Clerical in its societal role*. Without getting bogged down in the details, let's just say that getting a bit of clerical casting is going to be something that will fill in a gap that I think a lot of players might strongly feel.
*To the point where, in a day where no spellcasting happens, one couldn't tell them apart from a cleric by observation. They work in the same temples, wear the same vestments, etc.

So, does that sound viable? How many spells should they be able to prepare if they get the slot progression of an Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster? What are the pitfalls I should watch out for?

Another thing is that, while the end goal will be to have the Archetypes all progress in power level equally*, I'm not sure that is best served by having them grant new abilities at the same levels. Which means they might use different class tables, or, to format it differently some might not grant abilities at all at the levels that the main class chart lists it.
*This may take a lot of critique to make happen!

Speaking of the class chart, another thing is that the class LOOKS very front-loaded based on that.

You have a lot of options at first level. I'll omit the reasoning for that to keep things simple, but let's just say that I have every confidence that it is actually needed. Some abilities need to be early more for thematic reasons, and some for mechanical ones.

At the high levels it is mostly that instead of getting many NEW abilities, the ones you already have just scale REALLY well.

Lastly, as the length of this post "ominously foreshadows", this class is (relative to each of the individual editions/incarnations it goes through), the most brain-breakingly complicated class I've ever seen played. In addition, it is a very niche playstyle. Any suggestions for how I can write for simplicity, or clearly communicate up-front the ideas so that people don't get surprised would be MOST welcome. I know that the first posting of this is not going to be the best, but I want it to be as good as it can be, given the limitations of myself, and the ambitiousness of the concept.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I am fairly new to 5e. In the campaign I am in we just hit 10th level. Since about 3rd level I have been playing a homebrew class I converted from my 3.x works.

One of the other players said he would like to see a full write-up of the class, but before I attempt that, I wanted to ask a few questions.

What do people mean when they say "ribbon" or "ribbon level"?
A ribbon is an ability that exists mainly for flavor, with only marginal utility in or out of combat.



I have about seven different archetypes, including a few ones that I suspect are going to draw flak:
1.) One that in most campaigns is mechanically better suited for an NPC. The fluff is really good, it is just that most of the abilities you get aren't the most useful to an adventurer.
2.) One that only gives you defensive abilities. I created it because the 3.x versions have gotten some critique that the class would tend to get killed a lot, despite strong defense already being a theme for them. This opinion may have been a statistical outlier, but since it IS a theme, and all of these archetypes build on themes already present in the class, I thought it couldn't hurt to include one that built on that theme. It would also help newbies to the class, since a lot of their active abilities involve debuffing themselves in one way or another.

The question then becomes "Should i post it with all the archetypes I have written up first, only the ones I am fairly sure on the progression of, or limit it to only 3 at the start, so as not to overwhelm people?" Of course, I intend to post everything eventually (knowing me that might be "a week later", "a year later", or "the 32nd of Never").
I'd start with the ones you feel best about mechanically. I don't think a defense-oriented subclass is a bad thing. One aimed at NPCs doesn't really fit with 5e design principles, though. What kind of abilities do they get?


Speaking of Archetypes, one of them grants spellcasting. Now, of course, the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster do that too, but those are Arcane, while this will be MOSTLY Divine. I'm planning on giving them their full spell list rather than having to pick which spells to learn. The class is already SORTA a full-caster, and definitely is Clerical in its societal role*. Without getting bogged down in the details, let's just say that getting a bit of clerical casting is going to be something that will fill in a gap that I think a lot of players might strongly feel.
*To the point where, in a day where no spellcasting happens, one couldn't tell them apart from a cleric by observation. They work in the same temples, wear the same vestments, etc.

So, does that sound viable? How many spells should they be able to prepare if they get the slot progression of an Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster? What are the pitfalls I should watch out for?
Eh, a divine version of EK/AT casting would be fine. It's hard to tell without seeing the base power of the class, but it's quite possible that you can get stronger than those two-- both Fighter and Rogue get a lot of their power from their base class, with less design room left for archetypes.


Another thing is that, while the end goal will be to have the Archetypes all progress in power level equally*, I'm not sure that is best served by having them grant new abilities at the same levels. Which means they might use different class tables, or, to format it differently some might not grant abilities at all at the levels that the main class chart lists it.
*This may take a lot of critique to make happen!
That's... not really something that works in 5e. Maybe break it down into a pair of subclasses, like the Warlock does with their Pact/Patron?


Speaking of the class chart, another thing is that the class LOOKS very front-loaded based on that.

You have a lot of options at first level. I'll omit the reasoning for that to keep things simple, but let's just say that I have every confidence that it is actually needed. Some abilities need to be early more for thematic reasons, and some for mechanical ones.

At the high levels it is mostly that instead of getting many NEW abilities, the ones you already have just scale REALLY well.
Can't comment on this one without seeing the class.


Lastly, as the length of this post "ominously foreshadows", this class is (relative to each of the individual editions/incarnations it goes through), the most brain-breakingly complicated class I've ever seen played. In addition, it is a very niche playstyle. Any suggestions for how I can write for simplicity, or clearly communicate up-front the ideas so that people don't get surprised would be MOST welcome. I know that the first posting of this is not going to be the best, but I want it to be as good as it can be, given the limitations of myself, and the ambitiousness of the concept.
Maybe include an intro where you talk about their role, and how it's a very player-specific class? I dunno. Be organized.

[notXanathar]

A ribbon is an ability that is not really meant to give the player a great increase in power. It is just meant to be there to give you the sense of having abilities, or a to roleplay. For example, the paladins 3rd level feature, divine health. This is a ribbon because the designers don't expect disease to be a major part of the game. Other examples that I would immediately go to would be ones that change the way you age.

[Blackbando]

I mean, not to shoot you down or anything, but if you're new to 5e, making a class might not be a good idea?

Even the most experienced brewers take a long, long time to actually make a class that's balanced. For someone new, it's definitely a lot harder.

But, regardless, Grod here is saying about the same as I would, and if you do choose to publish it (and archetype stuff) here for critique, myself and many others will gladly help.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'll try to answer each question, but...d*** there's a lot.

A Ribbon is a "flavor" ability. I hate the term. It is in regards to any ability that adds "thematics" to the concept, without actually providing anything useful. Usually, people who describe something as a Ribbon are saying that a particular feature isn't intended to be useful, and usually that means useful in combat. It's pretty and useless, like a Ribbon. People usually use it to describe non-combat features, which implies that the game only exists to move from fight to fight.

As to choosing how many to post, I find it's better to spread them out. They'll get more attention without being ignored into obscurity all at once. Start with the most finished products and work your way to the more basic ones, when the advice you receive can be used to refine your most unfinished products.

On the topic of the pseudo-Cleric caster, I'd say it's important to distinguish what exactly you're trying to do that can't already be done by a Divine Soul Sorcerer, or a Cleric of some domain. There may be a chance that your option isn't unique enough to warrant its own class, and it might be better to fit it in as some kind of alternate class that uses the Cleric spell list (maybe a Paladin?). If you do still have to keep it as a class, figure out why, and expand on those differences. I think it'd be important to separate the spellcasting from your archetype and the Cleric as much as possible, even if that means leaving them as a half-caster.
The big pitfalls you want to watch out for is the fact that the Cleric spell list is focused on supporting, due to how versatile and adaptable the Cleric already is. The Cleric can steal a lot of spotlight time with their armor, weapon, HP pools and Domain powers, so their spell list is actually designed to make OTHER people steal the spotlight from them. Even their best damage spell, Guiding Bolt, helps someone else. This is why the Divine Soul is allowed to use the Cleric spell list: Sorcerers often already steal the spotlight, and making them more powerful with Cleric spells won't actually make that problem worse.


As for the last few parts, if you can't summarize it into a paragraph, then don't do it. If you have to, chop away important parts of the early game mechanics and tack them on later when they become less relevant. Make the scaling less of a leveled feature and more of a part that's tied in early on.

Take the Moon Druid as an example. It defines, quite early on, that 1/3 of your Druid Level determines what CR creature you can morph into. As a result, it doesn't have to plainly write out what your new CR limit is every 3 levels, and it can take some aspects that COULD have been in with the initial concept and fit them in later (like spending spell slots to heal). Unfortunately, it's hard to give advice on what exactly the solution should be when there's no real example in front of us. I will say that simplicity is seen more favorably amongst the 5e crowd than the obscure levels of complexity seen in 3.5. That being said, good design can make complexity out of simplicity (Using the Open Hand Monk as an example).

[Bloodcloud]

So... what's the class? Do you have 3.5 writeup?

[Amechra]

So... what's the class? Do you have 3.5 writeup?

The Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247637-Semi-hiatus-to-avoid-wearing-new-reviewers-out-but-ANYONE-can-post-here-if-you-want) seems like the most likely candidate.

My personal advice? Start from scratch. Hard. You aren't going to be able to fit the 20+ pages of content (I copied it into Word once) for the Grace Gift into the relatively rigid class structure of 5e. On the flip side, you don't have to worry about being front loaded too much - classes in 5e usually are.

At its root, the Grace-Gift is a tank+healer without offensive abilities. You might want to look at the Cleric (specifically the Life and Protection domains) for examples of the kind of abilities someone who is focused on defense/healing might have.

EDIT: More specific advice:

A lot of the Grace Gift's features are a side effect of 3e fighting that kind of play-style. Looking over the class (and ignoring the mechanical cruft), we have some central ideas:

1) Be the tank - you want enemies attacking you, both by punishing those attacks and by pulling damage/status effects off your allies.
2) Be the healer - you want to be good at healing. Luckily, that's easier in 5e than in 3e.
3) You also dabble in some buffs - Helpful makes you good at Aid Another, and you have a strong "take a penalty to boost my allies" subtheme. Unfortunately, 5e (and it's irrational hatred for buffing) is going to make this... tricky.

Unfortunately, #1 and #3 aren't things that 5e lets you be good at. It really hates any kind of buff stacking. On top of that, effects that pull aggro tend to do it either against one enemy at a time or it lasts for just a round. Oftentimes both.

...

On a different note...

5e treats levels 1-3 as "tutorial" levels, and then bumps you up a power level at 5th, 11th, and 17th. As a result, classes usually get their solid features at 2nd, 5th, 11th, and 17th levels. Additionally, you should not have class features that just hand out a static bonus to things - those tend to break things.

Looking at the Grace Gift, I actually don't see any reason why it needs to be terribly front-loaded. A lot of the features either need to be cut entirely (I'm looking at you, Bonus Feats), don't do anything in 5e (Aura and Healing Item Use), or can be entirely replaced by giving the class some appropriate Proficiencies (Lifesaver/Master of the Healing Ward).

[DracoDei]

Grod_The_Giant:
I'll handle my comments on "Ribbons" in my replies to other people in this post.

I'd start with the ones you feel best about mechanically. I don't think a defense-oriented subclass is a bad thing. One aimed at NPCs doesn't really fit with 5e design principles, though. What kind of abilities do they get?
I'm going to say this kinda backwards, so as to avoid prejudicing your thinking by throwing up a red flag in people's minds before I explain the way it is gets turned into a "feature, not a bug".

The major theme of the base class is debuffing themselves in some regard (Saves, AC, mobility, action economy, etc) in order to buff an ally in the same regard. If you want an example of something similar from the PHB, consider the spell Warding Bond.

In order to do that, when NOT using any of their active abilities, they have to be a "brick wall". So an Archetype that further improves their defenses might be pretty iffy to some people in both a "power level" way and a "why would anyone want to play this?" way?


Eh, a divine version of EK/AT casting would be fine. It's hard to tell without seeing the base power of the class, but it's quite possible that you can get stronger than those two-- both Fighter and Rogue get a lot of their power from their base class, with less design room left for archetypes.
In this case, it is more that while both the base class and the spellcasting are reasonably powerful, their power overlaps a lot. Most of the spells of the architype would be things the base class can already do, but this lets them do it without debuffing themselves, or spending an action each round to renew a buff.

For instance, the base class has something vaguely like the Bard's Song of Rest, but it means that they themselves don't heal during that Short Rest. Being able to actually cast Cure Wounds is faster, and they can use it on the same turn that they use a bonus action to designate an ally whose damage they will be taking half for them of that round (Warding Bond, but without the numerical bonuses, cast as a bonus action, and lasting 1 round).


That's... not really something that works in 5e. Maybe break it down into a pair of subclasses, like the Warlock does with their Pact/Patron?
That is an idea that is worth considering! At the moment I have idea I have no idea how it would work, but that just means you may have greatly expanded my thinking!



Speaking of the class chart, another thing is that the class LOOKS very front-loaded based on that.

You have a lot of options at first level. I'll omit the reasoning for that to keep things simple, but let's just say that I have every confidence that it is actually needed. Some abilities need to be early more for thematic reasons, and some for mechanical ones.

At the high levels it is mostly that instead of getting many NEW abilities, the ones you already have just scale REALLY well.
Can't comment on this one without seeing the class.

Part of the issue is that a lot of the class abilities are halfway between being a class ability and a spell. They are like base class abilities in that:

Every Grace-Gift gets the same ones.
If they scale, they do so based on class level directly (rather than using spell level as an intermediate step).
Some of them are powered up by Archetypes, like Wildshape is for Moon Druids.
They are always available, rather than needing Rests to recharge.


But... they FEEL like spells in that you actively pick which one (if any) to use that round, and a lot of their buffing effects are very close to ones that are provided by spells such as Resistance, Shield of Faith, Warding Bond, Fly, and Haste... but then again a lot of class features (such as a Paladin's Auras, or the 'Protection' Fighting Style that both the Paladin and Fighter can pick) can do similar things.

At the end of the day, they are probably much more like class features (in 5e) than spells, but (as I have been told with one of the 3.x versions of this class) it is almost certainly MUCH more readable if they are made into spells. So... what should I do?


Maybe include an intro where you talk about their role, and how it's a very player-specific class? I dunno. Be organized.
I think I can organize, but MAYBE only once people tell me HOW to organize. Of course, they might have to see a first draft before I can do that.

So let me go ahead provide that!


A Grace-Gift is not for most players. It is an amazing class for how DIFFERENT it is from most other classes, but those differences in turn require a very different mindset, approach to the game, and tactics.

First off, this is the worst class when it comes to offense. Your only class ability that improves your ability to harm the enemy in any way requires that you avoid using the Attack action and boosts you opportunity attacks. That said, the Hedge of Thorns architype can boost said opportunity attacks to the point where in encounter against numerous melee-focused foes you may end up out-damaging a martial comrade.

Even outside of combat, you MAY find yourself playing the role of "the wind beneath their wings" rather than actively doing things yourself.

Secondly, this is a class that CAN harshly punish inexperience*, and greatly rewards a through knowledge of the game. Your positioning is key. You need to be near enough to the comrades to buff them, while not being in a place that over-exposes you to attacks you can't afford to take the full consequences of (hit, failed saving throw, etc). Also, you need to anticipate your foes and allies to know WHO to buff, and HOW each turn. This benefits strongly from understanding how to mechanically play each of the other characters in combat, and the tactics that different sorts of enemies use.
*If you want to play this class, but are concerned about dying, consider the Indomitable Fortress architype to further improve your already formidable defenses.

So, why should you play this class?

It is a change of pace.

It allows a skillful player to help less experienced players shine rather than overshadowing them.

You have to think about your actions. Every character on the battlemap, both friend and enemy, can be a critical part of decided what actions to take. You don't have a single default response to combat, but rather must move around the map like a fencer facing a heavily armored foe has to move their limbs (or, to look at it another way, like a "one armed paper-hanger"). There is never a dull moment, but rather the joy of a complex high-wire act that will make you not merely "the wind beneath the parties wings" but "the S.C.R.A.M. jet hurtling them towards victory at mach speed".

The names of the archetypes are subject to change.

notXanathar:

A ribbon is an ability that is not really meant to give the player a great increase in power. It is just meant to be there to give you the sense of having abilities, or a to roleplay. For example, the paladins 3rd level feature, divine health. This is a ribbon because the designers don't expect disease to be a major part of the game. Other examples that I would immediately go to would be ones that change the way you age.
Okay! :smallsmile:

I agree that deriding non-combat abilities is... a sign of someone whose mindset might be better suited to most videogames than to tabletop RPGs?

Most of this class's "ribbons" are more like the first (will occasionally come up in many games), rather than the second (will only come up in very few games).

Blackbando:

I mean, not to shoot you down or anything, but if you're new to 5e, making a class might not be a good idea?
I have only playtested homebrew for 5e with a single group, and don't think I have never shown anyone outside that group my 5e homebrew before. Certainly I have never posted it here, except some monsters hidden in a spoiler in a thread that I probably never bumped after editing them into a pre-existing post.

HOWEVER!

I have a lot of time thinking about this particular class, and playing it in three different mechanical incarnations across 3.x, PF, and 5e.

I am a veteran homebrewer, although, admittedly, not mostly of classes. I have "Only" done 4 prior to this one, and one of those was for NPCs, and another was a re-write of this same concept within 3.x/PF, but for a different subsystem (Mythos, instead of original).

The vast majority of my play experience in 5e is playing this class. Even when I wasn't playing it, I was playing a cleric with a tactical approach designed to be as close to this class as possible.

tl;dr I am a curious blend of experienced and inexperienced. With this class design I'm probably going to be a curious blend of genius and noob mistakes.


Even the most experienced brewers take a long, long time to actually make a class that's balanced. For someone new, it's definitely a lot harder.

But, regardless, Grod here is saying about the same as I would, and if you do choose to publish it (and archetype stuff) here for critique, myself and many others will gladly help.
Thank you all for the present and probable future help!

Knowing that even experts have to polish for a long time helps me feel less like "I'll never get a second chance to make a first impression". I can post something that might turn out to be bad, and then improve it, without losing all my feedback, or chance that others will actually use the finished product when it arrives.

Man_Over_Game:

I'll try to answer each question, but...d*** there's a lot.
That there are!


A Ribbon is a "flavor" ability. I hate the term. It is in regards to any ability that adds "thematics" to the concept, without actually providing anything useful. Usually, people who describe something as a Ribbon are saying that a particular feature isn't intended to be useful, and usually that means useful in combat. It's pretty and useless, like a Ribbon. People usually use it to describe non-combat features, which implies that the game only exists to move from fight to fight.

I see, and I agree.

As to choosing how many to post, I find it's better to spread them out. They'll get more attention without being ignored into obscurity all at once. Start with the most finished products and work your way to the more basic ones, when the advice you receive can be used to refine your most unfinished products.
My most finished archetype (because it is the one I have been playing) is the one that improves your enhancement to your opportunity attacks. Current working title is "Hedge of Thorns", but "Bridge-Holder" (as in "Horatio at Urbs" or Gandalf vs the Balrog) is another possible title.

As a high level ability that moves this beyond opportunity attacks, I am thinking of allowing the use of darts to intercept ranged attacks with visible projectiles. Basically you become a medieval fantasy Patriot missile battery.

As for which other ones I finish first, that might come down to what people are most interested in.

Unless stated otherwise, assume any bonus can be transferred to one or more of your allies.

Working Title: Disaster's Bane
Improves: Saving Throws
Adds (at various levels): Divine Health (Not transferable), Magic Resistance, Resistance to various sorts of damage (three subcatagories: Basic Energy (Thunder, Fire, Lightning, Cold, Acid), Advanced Energy (Necrotic, Radiant, Force), and Physical (Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing)... might combine the last two categories as far as which you get to pick from at what levels.), maybe Evasion, maybe Immunity to various conditions such as fear and/or charm (If I include charm it will have a version that is not transferable).

Working Title: Holy Protector
Improves: (N/A)
Adds: Prepared casting with spell slots at the Eldritch Knight Progression rate. Spell list will be mostly drawn from the cleric (buffs and healing), with a few choice buffs from the Wizard list (most notably Fly and Haste), and perhaps only a single spell from Paladin: Compel Duel. In any case the buffs can never be cast on yourself.

Working Title: Swift Rescuer
Improves: Good Action Economy (Technically doesn't improve any particular base class features, but the idea of bonus action casting to allow more free use of Dash, Disengage, Dodge, and Help is certainly a design aspect of the base class. Dash and Disengage are especially useful because I kept the ranges short for most abilities, so they have to stay dangerously close to the action.)
Adds (at various levels):

Whenever you take the Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action, you may take another (different) one of those actions as well at the same time, or later in the turn.
Enemies have disadvantage on Opportunity Attacks against you.
Land's Stride (As per druid or ranger)
Benign Transposition in place of movement (As per Conjuration School Wizard, but possibly more often).
MAYBE the same dart/shuriken trick as the Hedge of Thorns, because the idea of being "exactly where you are needed" could be expanded to including covering the whole party from ranged attacks.



Working Titles: Conflict Avoidance, Master Diplomat
Improves: Social Skills
Adds (at various levels): The ability to never make a social situation worse than if you hadn't spoken up (no matter how badly you roll... and transfer this via the Help action), Zone of Truth (not transferable), maybe defenses against specific sorts of charm (some possibly transferable), Alignment Detection (NOT type detection like Paladins and the spell Detect Good and Evil does, but actually detecting alignments as it worked in every edition prior to this. Yes, I know they probably changed it for a good reason (this can break intrigue campaigns), but I allowed a save, and being strong in that sort of situation is the point of this archetype. Not transferable.)

Working Title(s): Humble Servant ((This is the one that might be much more useful to NPCs rather than PCs. Think Little House on the Prairie?))
Improves: Bonuses to the Help action (both in and out of combat), MAYBE Ritual Casting
Adds (at various levels):

Proficiency with all crafting tools, including farming implements, PROVIDED you aren't making anything useful for combat with them. Maybe some restrictions on them being "great art" or being suitable for turning into magic items? (Not transferable)
Advantage on saves for long-term effort. Think the 3.x Endurance feat, but applying just as well to pulling an all-nighter as a speech writer, engineer/draftsman, clockmaker, or diplomat as it is to hiking or loading cargo.
Continuous Haste... that removes most of your class features, including armor and weapon proficiencies, from ALL your classes as long as it is active. Requires a Short Rest to turn it on or off. May have been partially inspired by Boggans from Changeling: The Dreaming.
MAYBE Ritual casting of utility spells (mostly traditionally arcane ones, ironically enough). Examples would include Fabricate, Move Earth, Floating Disk, and Wall of Stone. Yes, I know that some or all of these may not be castable as rituals normally!
Maybe Ranger-like bonuses to surviving in various terrains, but some options nerfed or removed entirely. For instance tracking is limited to game animals and anything that has attacked an ally within a certain number of days.



Working Title(s):Indomitable Fortress ((This is another one I referenced before.))
Improves/Adds: Various defenses, none of which are transferable. Very up in the air as to what actually I will be including here.


Working Title(s):Phallynx Anchor ((I don't even have any notes written up for 5e on this one, but it was a route you could go with the other two incarnations of this class.))
Improves: Armor Class


Working Title(s):Great Healer ((Ditto))
Improves: Medicine skill uses (not transferable), granting bonuses to others' hitpoint recovery by forgoing the chance to roll hit-dice yourself to recover.






On the topic of the pseudo-Cleric caster, I'd say it's important to distinguish what exactly you're trying to do that can't already be done by a Divine Soul Sorcerer, or a Cleric of some domain.
I assume Divine Soul is an archetype that just gets to pick at least some of their spells from the cleric list, rather than getting an other noticeable abilities as part of their archetype?

There may be a chance that your option isn't unique enough to warrant its own class, and it might be better to fit it in as some kind of alternate class that uses the Cleric spell list (maybe a Paladin?). If you do still have to keep it as a class, figure out why, and expand on those differences. I think it'd be important to separate the spellcasting from your archetype and the Cleric as much as possible, even if that means leaving them as a half-caster.
Oh, the casting mechanic is VERY different. Most of the balance is provided by the fact that you debuff yourself. To provide a defensive buff, this is usually to the very sort defense that applies to the sort of attack you think most likely to be used against your party that round!

The other significant drawback is that, with the exception of a single non-combat buff, everything I can think of off the top of my head lasts only a single round.

So what do you get in return for these drawbacks?


Your casting is via Bonus Actions, rather than Actions. This is required to enable mobility, to counter the very short range of most of the class the abilities. Those short ranges are, in turn, required to keep you from hanging too far back from the action, or even around a corner where you have line of sight/effect to the arcanists in the party, but none of the enemies. Secondarily, this allows the safety of the Dodge and Disengage actions, and the "wind beneath their wings" aspect of the Help action to not come at the expense of your casting.
Spontaneous Casting, like a Sorcerer.
Almost everything is at will, rather than being a limited number of times before you need a Rest to recharge. If, for some reason, I was talked into giving them a limited number of uses, the number would be rather large, because: single round duration buffs.





The big pitfalls you want to watch out for is the fact that the Cleric spell list is focused on supporting, due to how versatile and adaptable the Cleric already is. The Cleric can steal a lot of spotlight time with their armor, weapon, HP pools and Domain powers, so their spell list is actually designed to make OTHER people steal the spotlight from them. Even their best damage spell, Guiding Bolt, helps someone else. This is why the Divine Soul is allowed to use the Cleric spell list: Sorcerers often already steal the spotlight, and making them more powerful with Cleric spells won't actually make that problem worse.
A cleric can be "the wind beneath their wings" to the party while also doing reasonably cool stuff themselves. A Grace-Gift doesn't do much themselves, but is more of a S.C.R.A.M. Jet than mere wind (an analogy I use a lot to sum up this class, including at least one other place in this post).


As for the last few parts, if you can't summarize it into a paragraph, then don't do it. If you have to, chop away important parts of the early game mechanics and tack them on later when they become less relevant. Make the scaling less of a leveled feature and more of a part that's tied in early on.

Take the Moon Druid as an example. It defines, quite early on, that 1/3 of your Druid Level determines what CR creature you can morph into. As a result, it doesn't have to plainly write out what your new CR limit is every 3 levels, and it can take some aspects that COULD have been in with the initial concept and fit them in later (like spending spell slots to heal). Unfortunately, it's hard to give advice on what exactly the solution should be when there's no real example in front of us. I will say that simplicity is seen more favorably amongst the 5e crowd than the obscure levels of complexity seen in 3.5. That being said, good design can make complexity out of simplicity (Using the Open Hand Monk as an example).
Ah, yes. That sort of scaling is definitely present.

Amechra:

The Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247637-Semi-hiatus-to-avoid-wearing-new-reviewers-out-but-ANYONE-can-post-here-if-you-want) seems like the most likely candidate.

Yes, the Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247637-Semi-hiatus-to-avoid-wearing-new-reviewers-out-but-ANYONE-can-post-here-if-you-want), and its Mythos version the Phileotheysia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528427-P-E-A-C-H-Phileotheysia-The-Mythic-Sacrifice-Bodyguard-Martyr-Mythos).



My personal advice? Start from scratch. Hard. You aren't going to be able to fit the 20+ pages of content (I copied it into Word once) for the Grace Gift into the relatively rigid class structure of 5e.

Well, I didn't exactly do it by starting from scratch (I dropped the bonus feats and any class features that were too hard or irrelevant to translate, but worked from the same core class abilities), BUT I believe I have successful done that compression already, in the course of playing it. It is still RELATIVELY big, but only compared to the other classes of 5e. The simplification should be at least a great as any other class making the jump from 3.x to 5e.


On the flip side, you don't have to worry about being front loaded too much - classes in 5e usually are.

Good to know! That was always one of the big problems people had with the class... not that it was too powerful, but that it dumped too much to think about just as you were starting out... which you later say is something 5e tries NOT to do.


At its root, the Grace-Gift is a tank+healer without offensive abilities. You might want to look at the Cleric (specifically the Life and Protection domains) for examples of the kind of abilities someone who is focused on defense/healing might have.

I played Life Clerics to approximate it when I was first learning 5e. Will probably look at Protection.


EDIT: More specific advice:

A lot of the Grace Gift's features are a side effect of 3e fighting that kind of play-style. Looking over the class (and ignoring the mechanical cruft), we have some central ideas:

1) Be the tank - you want enemies attacking you, both by punishing those attacks and by pulling damage/status effects off your allies.

Eh... a lot of people asked about the 3.x versions of this concept "How do you draw aggro?". My answer was "You don't, except sometimes by being an easier (or at least closer) target than your allies.". So you aren't the normal idea of a tank, especially since the only DPR you have was via Attacks of Opportunity.

Actually... I just remembered that they also could take "Lesser Mage-Slayer" which DID mean that targeting them was the safer option. Even without that, ranged weapon users locked into the Grace-Gifts reach faced a similar issue of the AoO being much less threatening if it targets the Grace-Gift rather than an ally.


2) Be the healer - you want to be good at healing. Luckily, that's easier in 5e than in 3e.

Eh... not as good at healing a party during a dungeon crawl as a cleric, and absolutely terrible at in-combat healing, but yeah, I gave them some of that. After all, it isn't realistic to expect them to perfectly protect the party (including themselves)... SOME stuff is going to get through, and I wanted to make them viable in a party without other sources of recovery.

Among the masses or in an army? Clerics run out of spell slots, especially after fighting in a battle. Grace-Gifts? Don't. They make Florence Nightingale look like a slacker. They look the Black Death in the eye and say "None shall die in MY town! You shall pass over us like an artic breeze on an otherwise perfect spring day. Uncomfortable perhaps, but in the end, a brief and passing trouble.".


3) You also dabble in some buffs - Helpful makes you good at Aid Another, and you have a strong "take a penalty to boost my allies" subtheme.
Dabble? Most of what you do in combat is buffs! Defensive Strike was always secondary to that (if a STRONG second) and Aid Another was comparatively minor.

Unfortunately, 5e (and it's irrational hatred for buffing) is going to make this... tricky.
Do you mean that it is harder to get bonuses from multiple sources to the same thing (for example: AC) in 5e?
If so, I may need to check the basic rules for such things. It was my understanding that as long as the name of the source of the effect was different, everything stacked, it was just that there were a lot fewer things to put together, and each one usually required someone to be Concentrating on it. See below the other case below.

If you are talking about walking into combat with 37 different buff spells running:
Yes, 5e hates buff routines. But, by default, Grace-Gifts never were supposed to contribute to that, sure they had the OPTION to, with the Doubled/Tripled/Bountiful/Endless Gifts feat chain, and maybe you see that as something that is required to keep mechanically viable at higher levels (and it you do you could be correct for all I know). You don't HAVE to though. For 5e the nearest equivalent would the the architype that lets you cast buff spells from slots, in addition to your bonus-action casting. Since the bonus-action stuff doesn't involve concentration (it only lasts 1 round, right? :smallwink:) it doesn't keep you from concentrating on a buff for someone else, meaning you can more easily have two buffs running every round (or theoretically three if someone needs a movement speed boost).

Technically I think my very rough draft has the Warding Bond (Shield Other in 3.x) type effect still start out using a (standard) action, rather than a Bonus (3.x: Swift) action, meaning you can do that with another buff most rounds.

tl;dr IF I understand what you are saying, I doubt that will be an issue as far as finding a way to make it happen. Power balance MIGHT be an issue, but I think I am on the right track in that regard.


Unfortunately, #1 and #3 aren't things that 5e lets you be good at. It really hates any kind of buff stacking. On top of that, effects that pull aggro tend to do it either against one enemy at a time or it lasts for just a round. Oftentimes both.

Again, Grace-Gifts never had any core abilities that were specifically designed to draw aggro to themselves to begin with. Defensive Strike meant you were perhaps worth taking out sooner rather than later,


...

On a different note...

5e treats levels 1-3 as "tutorial" levels, and then bumps you up a power level at 5th, 11th, and 17th. As a result, classes usually get their solid features at 2nd, 5th, 11th, and 17th levels.

So... does that mean I can load up 1st level with a bunch of options, or not?

I know that some classes pick their archetype at 3rd, rather than 2nd. Can't think of any off the top of my head that do it at any other levels, but I haven't studied them all at length. I am going with 3rd in this case.

I will keep those levels in mind for when to give bigger jumps in power (including/especially for archetypes).


Additionally, you should not have class features that just hand out a static bonus to things - those tend to break things.

Huh? Half (or all, if you just mean "non-scaling") the fighters options for Fighting Style give static bonuses. Examples include: +2 to damage with ranged attacks, +1 to AC while wearing armor, or +2 damage when only wielding one weapon in one hand.

Or do you mean that buffs should usually provide extra dice, rather than static numbers?

Or were you talking about the similar thing with, say, Paladin smite using dice, rather than simply "+class level"?

I'm confused...


Looking at the Grace Gift, I actually don't see any reason why it needs to be terribly front-loaded. A lot of the features either need to be cut entirely (I'm looking at you, Bonus Feats),
That gets replaced with the Archetypes.

I stand by it being needed in 3.x, although maybe making them feats wasn't the best way of phrasing it. The Rogue's thing of "You can take one of these abilities OR a feat" might have been a better starting place, rather than making the class-specific options feats.

don't do anything in 5e (Aura and Healing Item Use),

You don't need appropriate caster levels to use a wand in 5e? Or do wands, scrolls, and staves not exist much in 5e?


or can be entirely replaced by giving the class some appropriate Proficiencies (Lifesaver/Master of the Healing Ward).
I think I got that covered, but not with generally with Proficiencies.

I replaced Lifesaver with the Spare the Dying cantrip, and the ability to take 2 points of damage before rolling a Medicine check to gain Advantage.

Master of the Healing Ward turns into the ability to cause every hit-die an ally rolls during a Rest to count twice (including the Con. Bonus), at the cost of not being able to roll any hit-dice yourself during that rest. Similar thing for Long rests with your allies regaining all their hit-dice rather than only half of them, with the cost that you don't regain any at all. (I hope I got the default mechanics for long rests correct...)

Hands of the Healer got replaced with a spell-list you can only cast as rituals. List is supposed to be all of what I call the "recovery" spells that DON'T just restore hitpoints.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Grod_The_Giant:
I'll handle my comments on "Ribbons" in my replies to other people in this post.

I'm going to say this kinda backwards, so as to avoid prejudicing your thinking by throwing up a red flag in people's minds before I explain the way it is gets turned into a "feature, not a bug".

The major theme of the base class is debuffing themselves in some regard (Saves, AC, mobility, action economy, etc) in order to buff an ally in the same regard. If you want an example of something similar from the PHB, consider the spell Warding Bond.

In order to do that, when NOT using any of their active abilities, they have to be a "brick wall". So an Archetype that further improves their defenses is might be pretty iffy to some people in both a "power level" way and a "why would anyone want to play this?" way?
I can see that. I think it fits as a basic option, similar to the Champion or Thief-- not adding anything new so much as underlining the base class.


In this case, it is more that while both the base class and the spellcasting are reasonably powerful, their power overlaps a lot. Most of the spells of the architype would be things the base class can already do, but this lets them do it without debuffing themselves, or spending an action each round to renew a buff
That sounds like it would make you a half-caster, like the Paladin and Ranger-- a reasonably strong base with focused casting to back it up. I'd look at following that sort of template.

As for the rest... 5e really isn't fond of at-will abilities, but it is fond of turning class features into spells. I think you could follow that pattern. Pick a handful of absolutely central abilities, simplify them a bit and make them class features, and turn the rest into class-specific spells. You could also take Invocations as a model, if you want a more flexible chassis. Maybe check out my non-casting Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569312-Spell-Less-Warlock-Redesign) for ideas on how to structure things?

[Bloodcloud]

Basically, "core" class features are spread over the first three levels. Subclass comes at any of those 3 levels. Cleric get their domain at 1st, Fighter their archetype at 3rd, Warlock get their Pact at 1 and a Boon at 3rd, and Wizard get their specialization at 2nd, for example.

Given what you've shared so far, I'd look into bardic inspiration mechanic. Base class provides a use, subclass adds new uses to the same ressource.

Warlock is an interesting base structure you could copy, given it's highly modular nature with invocation and double "subclass" choice.

Battlemaster's manoeuvers have some of the effect you described.

I would, however, not get too atached to the exact abilities and their mechanic from 3.pf, and rework from the ground up using the general idea. 7 subclasses might be too much.


What you are describing seems doable, I'd go as a bardic inspiration-like dice hander, with class granting some basic use and subclass granting different more specialized uses. Invocation-like abilities could grant additional custom abilities.

Your major themes, I'd boil down to:
Social
Healing
Protection buff
Attack buff

Thats 4, which is more manageable.

Basically, you'd get:
Base class ressource is "dices" you hand other players to use as a buff of some sort.
Select subclass to grant new, thematic uses for those dices.
Probably some "aura" effect? Subclass could grant additionnal or alternate Aura effect.
A Channel divinity? A Short-rest recharge spell thing, fitting it into existing mechanics.
Invocations could grant some limited spell uses, additional "dice" options, or Channel divinity options.
At-will is either Weapon attack or Cantrip usually. You might want to grant it a bunch of non-attack cantrips, of which they are plenty. Resistance, Blade ward, Guidance, True-strike, maybe you grant them to others?

Does that make sense to you?

For a first class, I'd recommend cobbling stuff from existing classes and remixing into something that resemble what you want rather than inventing all-new mechanics. If you must invent, try to limit yourself to one, using existing concepts for the rest.

My 2 cents.

[DracoDei]

Note to All Readers:
Yeah, I'm getting close to the point where I think I MIGHT know enough that actually posting a first draft would be the best way to move the discussion forward. I've been getting more and more into the actual mechanics in my responses here, and that might indicate that actually seeing it would be useful, rather than an overwhelming mass of distractions to you generous reviewers.

What do you each think about that hypothesis?

Grod_The_Giant:

I can see that. I think it fits as a basic option, similar to the Champion or Thief-- not adding anything new so much as underlining the base class.
Yeah, almost all of the Archetypes would meet that description.



That sounds like it would make you a half-caster, like the Paladin and Ranger-- a reasonably strong base with focused casting to back it up. I'd look at following that sort of template.
Do you mean the spell slots granted by that Archetype should go up to 5th instead of 4th progress at the quicker rate of a Ranger/Paladin?


As for the rest... 5e really isn't fond of at-will abilities, but it is fond of turning class features into spells. I think you could follow that pattern.
Hmm...
Several counterpoints:
1.) Don't think of them as "At Will". Think of them as "Until using it causes you to get sufficiently rekt that you need to take 10 minutes* to use your ritual casting to fix the problem or roll some hit-dice to regain hitpoints."
*That usually qualifies as a "Short Rest", right?

2.) Grace-Gifts aren't quite pacifists mechanically (they get extra damage on Opportunity Attacks), but they ARE terrible at offense. Who is good at offense? Every other class. So even if the Grace-Gift somehow avoids point #1 above*, the party still needs to rest just as often. I hypothesize that an All-Grace-Gift party would be... a painfully slow slog that would still need to recover after approximately same number of encounters, it is just that those encounters would drag on a very long time as both sides whittled away at each other slowly.
*Perhaps via "I have the highest hitpoint maximum in the party and I got luck/skillful so as to avoid any lasting debuffs."

To play the devil's advocate: A party of a Grace-Gift and three Life Clerics could very well resemble the Energizer Bunny. The Grace-Gift tries to keep as much of the hitpoint damage on himself as possible (partial via there version of Warding Bond). The clerics smash stuff with weapons and use their casting to keep the Grace-Gift's hitpoints up and sometimes clear Debuffs from whoever... then they take a Short Rest which grants the Grace-Gift no benefits because he sacrifices the ability to recover hitpoints for that rest in order to double the effect of the Life Clerics' hit-die rolls. Still, the vibe I get from this is "more Awesome than it is Broken".

3.) I do believe that a Champion archetype Fighter is "Good continually, and Awesome when spending his non-At-Wills with abandon."? So by that measure it isn't SO unprecedented.

4.) Grace-Gifts have always had a "spellcaster vibe" to them. When I created them, the only at-will caster was the 3.x Warlock (and the True Namer, but they are too underpowered for anyone to care about them). So I've been down this road before, and it worked then.

5.) I've been play-testing this for about 7 or 8 levels and it hasn't shown any problems. I suppose that particular campaign could be atypical in theory?

Pick a handful of absolutely central abilities,
I've been told this before for the 3.x/PF versions.

Short version is that I my brain sees them all as so central (either mechanically, thematically, or both) that I can't do it. The most I could bring myself to do would be to allow swapping out on a Short Rest, and even that would be quite difficult.

simplify them a bit
"Simplify" <-Something else I have given up on ever being able to do for myself. The best I can usually seem to do is take rewrites of specific points that others do for me, put them in, and then have my original version in a spoiler labeled something like:
Draco Dei's "Director's Cut" Version.

and make them class features, and turn the rest into class-specific spells. You could also take Invocations as a model, if you want a more flexible chassis. Maybe check out my non-casting Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569312-Spell-Less-Warlock-Redesign) for ideas on how to structure things?
Both of these suggestions help.


Bloodcloud:

Basically, "core" class features are spread over the first three levels.


Subclass comes at any of those 3 levels. Cleric get their domain at 1st, Fighter their archetype at 3rd, Warlock get their Pact at 1 and a Boon at 3rd, and Wizard get their specialization at 2nd, for example.
Right... thinking of the class as NOT being able to do everything it "Should" be able to do until 2nd or 3rd level gave me the mental flexibility delay a lot of the abilities.


Given what you've shared so far, I'd look into bardic inspiration mechanic. Base class provides a use, subclass adds new uses to the same ressource.
I think I have a sub-system design I like.


Warlock is an interesting base structure you could copy, given it's highly modular nature with invocation and double "subclass" choice.
Yeah, that could help. Might not do it that way to start with, but could be the way to go after I get the major kinks worked out of the base class.


Battlemaster's manoeuvers have some of the effect you described.
Really? I'll have to re-read that. I don't REMEMBER anything like that. Thanks for the tip!


I would, however, not get too atached to the exact abilities and their mechanic from 3.pf, and rework from the ground up using the general idea.
I found it surprisingly easy in most cases to translate the abilities, or say "that can be dropped in this edition".

The biggest change was turning their down-time heal-check based recovery abilities into ritual casting from a spell list I haven't written up yet entirely (my GM is good with stuff like that being made up on the fly... only had to use it once or twice), plus "spend a short rest NOT resting, but treating other people's wounds to double the effectiveness of their hit-die rolling.".

The fact that it is "debuff yourself in X way to buff others in exactly X way", makes it really simple as soon as one has a basic grasp of how each mechanic (saving throws, actions, etc) is handled in this edition. It also helps that I based a lot of it around spells in 3.x (which I then gutted and re-wrote). Redoing those wasn't hard. Once you have turned a Harley into a "chopper", doing it with a Honda isn't too hard to figure out.

7 subclasses might be too much.
Wizard has 8, and picking a subclass for Grace-Gift basically comes down to "What do I like most about this class? I'll take the Archetype that boosts that.". If I provide a well-written summary* table for that, I should be able to get away with 20 Archetypes if I end up going that high.
*In THIS case I actually CAN summarize, unlike usually!


What you are describing seems doable, I'd go as a bardic inspiration-like dice hander, with class granting some basic use and subclass granting different more specialized uses. Invocation-like abilities could grant additional custom abilities.
Probably not dice. Nothing to roll in my current design. Rather "they get exactly the same number you give up. Stuff like "Lose proficiency with 1 to 6 saves of your choice, all allies within 10' gain your proficiency bonus as a bonus to those saves. Allies from further away than that, but within 30' gain half this amount.", or "Grant an ally within 30' resistance to all damage. You take all the damage that this resistance absorbs.". ...the phrase "equivalent exchange" from Full-Metal Alchemist comes to mind, but I don't know that series quite well enough to be CERTAIN that the larger over-arching meaning of those words is the same. Similarly final-episode Madoka is one of my poster-children for the spirit of the Grace-Gift. Tireless, and plays by the rules in keeping the scales balanced, until the very final bill comes due (the one that would have had her destroy the universe), and then she says "**** Destiny, Hope Never Dies!"


Your major themes, I'd boil down to:
Social
Healing
Protection buff
Attack buff

Thats 4, which is more manageable.
Social is, by default, a very small one. They get 3 free picks of skills (might drop to 2), and Persuasion and Insight are on the list (might add Intimidate as a mutually exclusive option with Persuasion for the "scary body-guard" option). I do have an archetype in mind for that, but that is more based on things that make sense with their fluff than anything they have especially strong mechanical support for in the base class.

The opportunity attacks are a bigger one. Sure, it is just a flat +2 to damage, but at level 2 when they get that, that is nothing to sneeze at.

Attack buffs are... definitely present, but more in strength than variety. Think Haste for the major one, with "Whenever you use the Help action in combat, your ally also gets +1 to-hit on that same attack." as the secondary. I don't think either of those are anything to sneeze at *sneeze*not-ribbons*sneeze*, but compared to the 6 or so different ways the base class has to provide defensive buffs by 20th level, it is hardly a BROAD theme.



Basically, you'd get:
Base class ressource is "dices" you hand other players to use as a buff of some sort.
Select subclass to grant new, thematic uses for those dices.
Probably some "aura" effect? Subclass could grant additionnal or alternate Aura effect.
A Channel divinity? A Short-rest recharge spell thing, fitting it into existing mechanics.
Invocations could grant some limited spell uses, additional "dice" options, or Channel divinity options.
At-will is either Weapon attack or Cantrip usually.
See my 5 point list to Grod earlier in this post for why I feel like I can make "At-Will" work for this class.

The Attack action is supposed to be a very poor idea for a Grace-Gift usually... Opportunity Attacks are kinda nice... and with the associated archetype... well, I talked about that enough before in this thread.

As for cantrips, they get a few, but they aren't the sort of thing that typical adventuring has you spam. Oh, the one that gives them a the divine equivalent of a never-ending can of Lysol (tm) and bottomless bag of water-purification tablets is part of how they look The Black Death and dysentery in the eyes and say "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough.", but if you are spamming Spare the Dying things are going very badly for your party, or you are treating NPCs after a large battle. Similar for Mending, except with lower stakes.


You might want to grant it a bunch of non-attack cantrips, of which they are plenty. Resistance, Blade ward, Guidance, True-strike, maybe you grant them to others?
Pfft... "ONLY on others" would be required to be in-theme, and yeah, their spell-casting (as in actual slot-based) archetype will get that.


Does that make sense to you?
SOME of it.


For a first class, I'd recommend cobbling stuff from existing classes and remixing into something that resemble what you want rather than inventing all-new mechanics. If you must invent, try to limit yourself to one, using existing concepts for the rest.

My 2 cents.
I am starting from my previous work, and then greatly simplifying it in the process of translating it into this edition.

[Zhorn]

First time I hear the term 'ribbon' and get an immediate explanation of what it is.
...
I LOVE ribbons.
Any player that makes note of a feature they want to give attention so, I'll bend over backwards to brew up an encounter (be it exploration, roleplay or combat) to give that ribbon its time in the sun.

[DracoDei]

So... it turns out that this months theme for the sub-class creation contest was "Take something from another base class".

I decided to heed the advice people were kind enough to offer me in this thread and (with permission from MoleMage who runs the contest) used the Grace-Gift as my source.

Self-Sacrifice Domain HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23877043&postcount=17), discussion thread HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559110-D-amp-D-5e-Subclass-Contest-Chat-Thread&p=23722956#post23722956).

Please tell me what you all think.

I still intend to make the Grace-Gift for 5e, but I realize it may be a trickier undertaking than I first estimated.