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View Full Version : Original System I need your help figuring out how to use these stats, and how magic fits in.



Man_Over_Game
2019-04-25, 03:37 PM
So I'm working on this system that uses 3 primary stats, and each of those stats are divided into Force and Finesse.

Like this:


Physical (Vitality, low means very frail)

Force (How much brute strength you have)
Finesse (How agile you are)

Mental (Intelligence, low means easily confused)

Force (How well you understand, plan, and learn complexities)
Finesse (Reaction-time, how observant you are, how much you remember)

Social (Charisma. Low means easy to panic)

Force (Commanding/aiding others Forcing Others)
Finesse (Understanding yourself and others Convincing Others)



And the secondary stats total up to their respective primary stat. If your Physical Force was 3, and your Physical Finesses was 7, your Physical stat would be 10. So Physical = PForce + PFinesse. The intent is that the primary stat is used mostly for defensive purposes (so a physical attack deals damage against someone's Physical stat), and most aggressive/proactive choices use the creature's substat (like how a Barbarian would use Physical Force).

For most of the circumstances I can see in a classic, fantasy TTRPG, Physical Force and Finesse, Mental Force, and Social Force are all things that are very recognizable.

However, what are some fantastical abilities that you could see tie in to something like the proposed Mental Finesse, or Social Finesse?

A few examples I've considered:

Mental Finesse:
Instinctively defending against a sudden attack, see everything in slow motion, eidetic memory, copying someone's movements.

Social Finesse:
Turning invisible, feigning an attack, changing your appearance, recognizing weaknesses

Additionally, where could you see common fantastical abilities be reliant on, like:

Teleportation
Summoning
Casting fireballs
Conjuring weapons
Telekinesis
Elementalism (Manipulating existing elements to your will).



Or anything else you can think of?

(There will be some circumstances where some things would mix, like how I'd like some matter-manipulation magic, like Earth Magic to be dependent on your Physical-Force stat, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on how could the non-Physical stats would see some use)

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-04-26, 07:03 PM
Teleportation


Seems like this would be Mental Finesse, assuming you're going with the "carefully visualize your destination to ensure you arrive on-target" version of teleportation.



Summoning


Likely a combination of Mental Force (to know enough about a given creature to summon it) and Social Force (since you're forcing other creatures to obey your will).



Casting fireballs


Depends on how fireballs work in this setup. Could be Physical Finesse plus Mental Finesse if it's about conjuring up fireballs and chucking them at a desired target, Mental Force if you're transmuting the air to fire and have to know how to do that in such a way as to make a fireball big enough to hurt people but small enough to not run wild, Social Force if you have an emotional component to your magic such that giving in to the Dark Side getting angry makes your fireballs and lightning bolts stronger, and so forth.



Conjuring weapons


Probably Mental Force, since you'd need to know enough about how the weapon is constructed to not summon up a sword that will shatter if something hits it, a bow that will break when drawn because the pull strength is too high, or the like. If you mean conjuring up weapons that fight on their own, Mental Force plus Social Force to mentally command them.



Telekinesis
Elementalism (Manipulating existing elements to your will).


Mental Force plus Mental Finesse, I'd say, since these require both a knowledge of physical force interactions to move and shape things appropriately and the ability to perform that moving and shaping quickly and precisely.


In general, the pattern I'm seeing is that Mental Force maps to "I'm doing something complicated and/or training-intensive," Mental Finesse maps to "I'm imagining and visualizing things," Social Force maps to "I'm controlling something with its own mind or will," and Social Finesse maps to "I'm messing with others' perceptions." So you could try to figure out what a book-smart professor, an imaginative painter, a stern military leader, or a silver-tongued liar would be good at and turn those into magical effects (such as, respectively, golem-making, polymorphing, mind-control, or memory-editing).

Mjolnirbear
2019-04-26, 07:41 PM
I'm throwing crap at the wall here;

In general I think of stats as having three functions; projecting force, resisting effects, and agility.

So D&D covers that with Body: Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. Mentally, it's much more complicated, but I tend to think of Charisma as mental force, Wisdom as mental resiliance, and Intelligence as mental dexterity. It doesn't work with many of the rules, but that's what I'm working with.


So many mental effects, however, could be both Mind or Personality. Let's start with Charms; you're trying to get someone to do something differently. Per D&D, that's Charisma, but you can also beat someone (Strength: Intimidation) or clinically describe the pain response (Intelligence: Intimidation).

Then go Illusions. Surely, the ability to mentally create a picture and project it is Mental Force. But ultimately, you're trying to deceive someone, which (again, D&D) is a Charisma function, since you're trying to influence someone.

It would help if you can firmly define what, to you, is the difference between Intelligence and Charisma. It doesn't need to be analogous to D&D or Real Life, of course; but ideally, you want to know what the difference is.



In my mind, the difference is in the method. You can influence someone using your body, your mind, or your personality; convince them, deceive them, etc. But *how* you do so determines if it's body, mind or personality.

And in my mind, the difference between force and agility is subtlety.


So. Using that, and going through your list of fantastical abilities:

Teleportation: Definitely force. You're forcing the space between places to not exist for you. Since one does not try to convince the universe to change the laws of nature for you, and you can't physically reach out and take hold of the space-time, that leaves Mind to me.

Summoning: You could argue it's mind-force, like Teleportation. You can also argue that it's charisma, making someone or something do your bidding. Still force. You could have it be 'multiple schools', or simply choose the one that makes the most sense.

Charms: This is finesse. You aren't beating them over the head with your personality; it's subtle. You're not forcing, you're convincing.

Illusions: You could argue for finesse, or for force. You're projecting an image into a mind or into the world, contrary to what that world actually holds. That's pretty forceful. But unlike, say, Conjuration, you're not actually changing stuff, you're changing perceptions, which is pretty dang subtle. I'd go mental agility for this.

Telekinesis: Mental force. You're imposing your will on the universe.

Elementalism: this depends; are the elements mindless mass? Are they energy? Are they mystical? Are they semi-sentient forces of nature? Are they creatures? In general, I'd say mass was Body, Energy is Mind, Mystical is Charisma. I'm pretty sure it's Force, unless they are creatures, in which case could be force or finesse depending on if you coax the elements to help you out or iron-fist them into obedience. So if you're coaxing a semi-sentient force of nature into lending you some Fire, your Fireball is Charisma Finesse. If you're seizing the flame with your mind and shaping it into destruction, Mental Force.

Side note: a lot will depend on your universe. And on how flexible you want the system. Do you want to have multiple ways of doing the same thing? One player could seize the elements, another could coax elementals with favours and service, the third could physically move the elements with his body using Katas.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-30, 10:27 AM
You've guys given me a lot of great ideas to think about.

Po'D, you and I are on the same page. One particular problem I'd *like* to see is having each of the stats be balanced in how often they're used, but that might be a problem if everything SHOULD be tied in with Mental Force (which is the most common thing that we think of when we think of Magic: Intelligence). I'll probably save Mental Force for the manipulation of "real" substance. Elements, matter and the such. Make it all different versions of Telekinesis that are just able to bend more than just straight matter. I like your reasoning behing teleportation being a Finesse thing. I'll probably tie both Mental stats into Teleportation, thinking about it (so you need both Mental Finesse and Mental Force to teleport).

Thorbear, your mention of Intelligence vs. Charisma is spot on. In this case, I'd probably have Intelligence be the "intentional" change, and Charisma be "will". One is something you know will happen, and the other is something you will to happen. Intelligence is about facts, and Charisma is about passion. Unfortunately, I realize this means there's a lot of overlap between Mental Finesse and Social Finesse, but I'm unsure of how to separate them into their own things. I really do like the idea of Charms being Finesse; it didn't make sense at first, but once I realized that it's about *convincing* the target, I realized there was no other way of doing it. Maybe I'll make Social Finesse about convincing people/things (and Social Force about forcing), and leave the self-pondering to Mental Finesse.


For a short summary of the system, it'll use your 3 primary stats as a sort of Health Pool, where attacks target a specific pool and reduce their value to 0. Further damage to that pool will then cause the other two pools to take that much damage (this is called Overdamage), and this effect can trigger itself.

So if your Social and Mental health are at 0, and a Social attack hits you, your Social takes 1 damage. A stat can't be less than 0, so it instead triggers Overdamage, dealing 1 damage to Mental and Physical. Mental is also at 0, causing 1 damage to Physical and Social (but Social won't trigger the Overdamage more than once). So having 2 stats at 0 means that your Physical stat is taking 3 damage per 1 damage received. So it's a lot easier to make a Berserker class go crazy and kill him through insanity than it is to fight him physically. You "die" when all 3 of your health pools hit 0.

When you invest into one of the 3 primary stats, you have to choose which of the two binary choices (Force, Finesse) gets that improvement. The values of those stats act as a sort of experience/resource point that you can use to buy abilities or passives. For example, 1 Mental Force + 1 Mental Finesse + 1 Physical Finesse might buy you a combat teleport. You still use those stats for certain values (so that Mental Force determines the distance, and Mental Finesse can let you use it reactively and reduces an incoming attack by your MFinesse, and Physical Finesse adding a bonus to an attack if used proactively).

At the end of the session, the GM tells you which of the 3 stats you best exhibited in the session and levels up that stat, creating a gradual level up system where your stats directly reflect the narrative you provide (Although you can ignore the GM's suggestion if his suggestion is in your strongest stat). It might make you safer to balance out your stats, but there are passive abilities you can get to make it so that you can safely specialize (like how a player making a "Berserker" can buy an ability that makes it so that Mental Overdamage doesn't hurt your Physical stat).

I like the idea of making character building a process, like from 3.5/PF, but having the values you set your abilities to be static so that combat is easier. So while Mental Force might determine the distance of your teleportation effects, there is nothing in the game that will change that value outside of character creation. This way, you create a list of custom abilities whose values do not change outside of character development between sessions. You spend your free time crafting the perfect character, and you play a refined, finished result in actual gameplay without much lookup. Complex character creation, simple execution.

Crisis21
2019-04-30, 10:43 AM
So, I was considering the names of your stats, and I'd like to offer alternatives:


Vitality (Physical)
- Strength (Force)
- Dexterity (Finesse)

Will (Mental)
- Intelligence (Force)
- Wisdom (Finesse)

Presence (Social)
- Charisma (Force)
- Charm (Finesse)


Since the primary stats are the sum of their related secondary stats, you could also make them represent spendable resources for things like casting or other impressive feats.

For example: A person has 3 Strength and 7 Dexterity, giving them 10 Vitality. This also gives them a maximum of 10 Vitality points they can spend on physical-based actions such as using vitality to cast certain physical-based spells or performing adrenaline-fueled physical deeds beyond the norm.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-30, 03:45 PM
So, I was considering the names of your stats, and I'd like to offer alternatives:


Vitality (Physical)
- Strength (Force)
- Dexterity (Finesse)

Will (Mental)
- Intelligence (Force)
- Wisdom (Finesse)

Presence (Social)
- Charisma (Force)
- Charm (Finesse)


Since the primary stats are the sum of their related secondary stats, you could also make them represent spendable resources for things like casting or other impressive feats.

For example: A person has 3 Strength and 7 Dexterity, giving them 10 Vitality. This also gives them a maximum of 10 Vitality points they can spend on physical-based actions such as using vitality to cast certain physical-based spells or performing adrenaline-fueled physical deeds beyond the norm.

That's not a terrible idea, my main concern is that I'm planning on having each of the 3 stats be its own HP pool. Having a separate pool for aggression might be a bit frustrating to track.

However, I could just have one pool for both resources. You can sacrifice your Vitality pool for magical abilities, or the enemy can drain it from you by attacking you. I could definitely see that.

I was considering each special ability of yours to have some sort of cooldown effect (roll a 1d6, the ability is unusable for that many turns, all of your CD dice are deducted 1 at the start of your turn), but being able to channel your stat pools (so you can sacrifice your sanity for instant power) to do something like lowering all of your dark-magic cooldowns adds a new dynamic I haven't fully considered.

Kyutaru
2019-04-30, 06:43 PM
I, too, am working on a system with a tri-stat approach. I first got the idea from the various eldritch horror games like Arkham Asylum where your sanity was a separate stat from your mind and body. I was planning to use it for a phone game I'm developing. It's eerily similar to what Crisis21 posted so I guess good concepts flourish. Where you see Force you can also treat as Offense. Where you see Finesse you can also treat as Defense. Like the both of you, I am also adding both substats to total the major stat. I'm doing this so because each class has a different point allocation per major stat that they can divide between the substats to specialize in offense or defense. Several combat characteristics are derived from a mix of stats, like physical accuracy being both Strength and Dexterity while the discipline stat combines Strength and Charisma. Meanwhile, things like Reflex saves are based on the better of Dexterity or Intelligence because quickness matters in both body and mind.

Body (Physical)
- Strength (Force)
- Dexterity (Finesse)

Mind (Mental)
- Intelligence (Force)
- Wisdom (Finesse)

Soul (Spiritual)
- Charisma (Force)
- Presence (Finesse)

The Soul attribute not only determines force of personality but literally measures the strength of the character's soul. Imposing one's will upon others is about using that soul pressure to submit them. Those with a strong soul have a great Charisma and a commanding Presence. Note that despite being Spiritual in nature it has nothing to do with the divine. A strong soul may help channel the divine powers but it won't mean the person has any interest in gods whatsoever. They can be a free spirit.

The Soul Finesse therefore becomes all about how strong your soul is and how easily others can manipulate it, in effect forcing you to harmonize with their soul. It can even be used literally against attacks against the soul or essence, that divine connection between man and the planes. It can even be used for Leadership and determining loyalty since it's the passive form of Charisma.

The Mental Finesse works out similar to how Wisdom already does. It defends your mind from outside attack when people try to deceive or "logic" you into submission. It's strength of will and a common factor in Will saves, which are governed by the better of Wisdom or Charisma.

Speaking of saves, I have the following that each draw from a defense and offense stat from differing areas of specialization:

Fortitude - Strength (offense) or Presence (defense) - Strength of spirit can keep the body going past its limit along with actual physical strength.

Reflex - Intelligence (offense) or Dexterity (defense) - Quickness of mind is as important as quickness of body when it comes to avoiding danger.

Will - Charisma (offense) or Wisdom (defense) - Strength of will can come from one's natural inner spirit or from great learned experiences.

As for the spells...

Teleportation - could be anything, anime even has it be a feat of dexterity
Summoning - soul, bending others to your will
Casting fireballs - mind, magic tends to be
Conjuring weapons - mind usually, but soul can work ""I am the Bone of my Sword...")
Telekinesis - mind, it's just being a psychic and needs the mind to control it anyway
Elementalism - could be anything, Avatar the Last Airbender used body movements for it

Crisis21
2019-05-01, 10:24 AM
Speaking of saves, I have the following that each draw from a defense and offense stat from differing areas of specialization:

Fortitude - Strength (offense) or Presence (defense) - Strength of spirit can keep the body going past its limit along with actual physical strength.

Reflex - Intelligence (offense) or Dexterity (defense) - Quickness of mind is as important as quickness of body when it comes to avoiding danger.

Will - Charisma (offense) or Wisdom (defense) - Strength of will can come from one's natural inner spirit or from great learned experiences.


The save distribution is interesting. I like how you divided them up between different primary stats.

Actually, I had an interesting thought related to an old d10 system I used to play. Rather than stats giving you +X bonuses to rolls, they let you roll extra dice against the d10 difficulty (as long as you rolled even one success - a 1 canceled a success - you were successful). Some of the stats that did this were expendable resources, including (if I recall correctly) health.

So, essentially, as you expended resources to cast spells or perform other superhuman feats or even just took damage, you became more vulnerable to certain game effects, reflecting that your character's exhaustion and injuries were affecting their capability.

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-01, 11:30 AM
I do want to stray away from saves in that regard. There might be similar concepts involved, such as an ability you can purchase that states: Your Physical Defense Rolls get a bonus equal to your Social Finesse as long as you comprehend the creature attacking you, but I want to stray away from saves in the way that they were in DnD. Not only do I not want this to not feel like DnD, but I also prefer consistent weak effects rather than powerful random ones.

I want to replace random chance with things that'll change the entire battle to hopefully turn the tides, but while not being guaranteed. For example, summoning a Demon-Beast creature that attacks the closest creature to it, or creating a gravity well that affects everyone while being mitigated by your Physical stat.

Although I do like the idea of using an alternate success system than "Hit this DC"

Crisis21
2019-05-01, 02:56 PM
Well, what die system were you thinking of using? I'm familiar with d20 and d10 systems and have some knowledge of a d6 system.

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-01, 03:12 PM
Well, what die system were you thinking of using? I'm familiar with d20 and d10 systems and have some knowledge of a d6 system.

To be honest? I'm...I'm not really sure. There's a lot of options and it's hard to tell why one would be better than another. Maybe something familiar, like how Risk does it?

Something along the lines of both sides throwing 1d10s, keeping the highest value of a certain amount of those 1d10s. Both sides compare, taking the highest Defense Dice and removing it and an Offense Dice of equal or lower value. Repeat this until one side has no dice left to remove. Abilities change how many dice you can throw or keep.

Just a thought. I'm not sure how well it'd work in actual play.

-----------

Really, I just want something that follows 5e's scheme of not using too many modifiers, but in order to keep things intense and open-ended, I'd like to follow the same concept but instead of using modifiers, using more dice in a way that's interactive for both Offense and Defense.

Kyutaru
2019-05-01, 05:48 PM
I'm a fan of the Warhammer d6 system. HeroQuest is another good d6 one. The concept in both is that you have to roll against a success chance that varies and is adjusted by stats. I'll explain each for those who don't know them.

HeroQuest is simpler so I'll point it out first. There are three skulls, two white shields, and one black shield on each die. Attack success is merely a matter of rolling skulls while defense success is a matter of rolling white shields for PCs and black shields for monsters. So the game is naturally slanted in the PCs favor and monsters tend to die off more easily than they do. A barbarian might roll three attack dice and have two defense dice. So the barbarian has a 50% per die of rolling damage while the enemy only has a 16.7% chance of negating damage per die. But since each die roll is a small pool with three possible results, the results vary widely and RNG happens. More dice = More consistent RNG, which players obtain by upgrading gear and using buffs. White Wolf games work similarly and can have you rolling 10+ dice aiming for successes.

Warhammer is more complex. There are very few stats in Warhammer and you're mostly comparing them to determine success chances. A Strength 6 attack against a Toughness 4 unit hurts them on a 3+ roll while the same attack against a Toughness 3 unit hurts them on a 2+ roll. Again the concept is throwing lots of dice because squads can be as big as 30 man Cultist blobs and fire three times per model. So you're potentially rolling 90 dice for your attack. This combined with the very small result range of a D6 will result in averages being fairly typical and rarely varying too much. What makes the system fun is that you have to do multiple sets of these rolls per action. One roll for accuracy, then another for wounding, then another for saving, then possibly yet another for a special ability trigger. Since the dice pools are huge the chances are fairly calculable and consistent. When the pools are very small such as 2 dice for momentous special psychic abilities, a lot rides on the fate of a single dice roll.

I mention these because the systems have almost no modifiers to speak of. There's only one modifier and that's armor penetration which worsens the enemy armor value for the purpose of saving throw calculation. Everything else is based on comparing stat values and types of attacks. A gun with no special properties rolls normally against your armor save. But a magic spell that says it bypasses armor might roll against your ward save, which can be better or worse depending on the model and buffs. These are all still D6 rolls they just have different names and buckets for the damage to be allocated to. It's an extremely simple rolling system that is made grand by the special traits, perks, and buffs that units have that make them unique. A pack of bloodletters might have extra inches on the charge or the ability to reroll your charging into combat roll. A tank may have strong armor values but is mechanical and weak to anti-tank weapons with high strength values that can penetrate it. The same anti-tank weapon can be used against infantry but it's inefficient to use a Strength 9 attack against a Toughness 4 model. Since that anti-tank weapon probably cost you 40 build points for your army, using it inefficiently isn't always the best option. But maybe it is in the moment! Casualties happen and circumstances change, affecting dice roll chances of success.

If you want a very simple 5e roll system, it's definitely my top pick. Bounded accuracy is its focus and players can quickly figure out the math behind their rolls in their head. Firing 90 shots that need a 3+ has a 66% chance to succeed so you can figure an average of 60 shots will hit. Then rolling to wound against their toughness might need a 4+ so that's 50%, or 30 shots will wound. Then the enemy rolls their saving throw and maybe they have good armor and your weapon has bad penetration so every 3+ negates a wound, leaving only 10 shots actually injuring them out of the original 90. The enemy takes 10 dmg and loses models from their squad when their HP has been exceeded.

Crisis21
2019-05-01, 07:04 PM
So, the d20 system I'm familiar with is D&D, and since I'm reasonably sure the rest of the forums are at least passingly familiar with it, I'll move on.


The d10 systems I know all function in the following manner (or similar): The difficulty of a roll ranges from from 2 (trivial) to 10 (nigh impossible). Rather than giving bonuses to the die result, your stats and skills grant you dice to roll. So, say you had a Strength of 3 and a Melee skill of 2 then you would roll 5d10 to punch someone in the face. Every die you roll that meets or beats the difficulty is a success, 1s are 'negative successes' and in some cases 10s count as 2 successes. As long as your roll has at least 1 success, you succeed at your task.

Having a stat value of 5 is considered peak human ability and anything over 5 is explicitly superhuman.



The d6 system I know uses normal d6 and all rolls are done with 3d6 against a character's skill rating in the task at hand. The goal is to roll the target number or lower. So, say your skill rating for climbing came out to 12. You would have to roll 12 or less on 3d6 to climb normally. Bonuses and penalties were dolled out in +/- 1 or 2 and considering the spread of results on 3d6, every bonus was highly coveted. As far as stats went, 6 was considered abysmal and 15 was considered phenomenal and you couldn't get higher or lower without modifiers. Triple 1s always succeeded and triple 6s always failed.