Is a corpse treated as a creature or an object?

[mehs]

For spells like purify food and drink, locate object, etc just how dead does it have to be to be an object and not a creature.

[Akkristor]

I believe a Corpse should be considered an object.

Gentle Repose
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Corpse touched
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

[Duke of Urrel]

This is a very good question, Mehs. There was a long thread that discussed it a short time ago. You can check it out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583994-Can-you-cast-Animate-Object-on-a-corpse&p=23795681#post23795681).

[Particle_Man]

Yeah if you can't run it as a pc or an npc it is an object, pretty much.

There was a thread on cannibalism where purify food and drink on corpses featured (to eliminate diseases).

[Kayblis]

Corpses are effectively objects. The argument goes both ways because the rules don't say it explicitly, but any logical view of the world will tell you that a cut-off hand is an object, meat is an object, meals are objects, bones are objects and an inanimate skeleton spine is both an object and an exotic Large whip. The fact you still haven't cut the dead body in more pieces doesn't mean it's still a creature.

With that in mind, you can use Shrink Item to carry corpses around in your pocket.

[Vaern]

I believe a Corpse should be considered an object.

Gentle Repose
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Corpse touched
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
A corpse is an object, but a dead creature is a creature.

Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)

Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)


I've run into this issue before and was unable to find a satisfactory answer anywhere in any of the books. From the context of spell descriptions, though, it kind of seems like spells like Gentle Repose and Animate Dead, which affect the body but do not interact with the soul, treat a corpse as an object.
Spells like Reincarnate or Raise Dead and the chain of higher level spells that stem from it, though, interact with both the body and the soul (even going so far as to require the subject's consent to be revived), and thus treat the target as a creature. Either that or corpses exist in some sort of superposition where they can be considered both a creature and an object simultaneously for the purposes of effects that would affect either one.
Also, while it isn't specified in the rules anywhere whether a corpse is explicitly an object or not, I did see mention in the Rules Compendium that a dead creature is always considered to have -10 HP, regardless of how it died... If you were to consider a dead creature to be an object and an object with 0 HP or less is effectively destroyed, then I would imagine that any creature who died in the D&D world would do so in a similar manner to a creature in Fallout who has been killed by a player with the Bloody Mess perk.

[InvisibleBison]

Raise dead has a target of "Dead creature touched", so if corpses are objects you can't bring anyone back from the dead.


I believe a Corpse should be considered an object.

Gentle Repose
[...]
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

The (object) notation in the saving throw and spell resistance line means that the spell can be cast on objects, not that it can only be cast on objects.

EDIT: In an attempt to avoid having my post contain purely redundant information, I'll say that the Player's Handbook glossary defines creature as "A living or otherwise active being, not an object." I think this pretty definitively establishes that object and creature are mutually exclusive categories.

[Particle_Man]

Yeah, just as "level" has multiple meanings in the game, I would assume that "dead creature" is a subclass of "object" not of "creature". Similarly, "Green Star Adept" is not a subclass of the NPC class "Adept".

[MisterKaws]

Yeah, just as "level" has multiple meanings in the game, I would assume that "dead creature" is a subclass of "object" not of "creature". Similarly, "Green Star Adept" is not a subclass of the NPC class "Adept".

Yeah, though that interpretation allows for positive energy necromancers, using Animate Object on corpses to make 100% Cleric-immune zombies.

Which is fine, I guess. It's just that there's a few positive energy creatures that animate all objects around them just by existing, and then you suddenly have innately good-alligned holy beasts raising legions of corpses just by strolling around in the Material Plane. And that is not so fine.

[denthor]

We treat the dead as luggage for dimension door and teleport spells

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, though that interpretation allows for positive energy necromancers, using Animate Object on corpses to make 100% Cleric-immune zombies.

Which is fine, I guess. It's just that there's a few positive energy creatures that animate all objects around them just by existing, and then you suddenly have innately good-alligned holy beasts raising legions of corpses just by strolling around in the Material Plane. And that is not so fine.

Except they're animated objects with 0 hardness (aka worthless) and not zombies.

[MisterKaws]

Except they're animated objects with 0 hardness (aka worthless) and not zombies.

Except when you get Dragon corpses, which still have Dragon DR and resistances. Or if you skin them and use them as fake Dracoliches, using Dragon Bone hardness(Pretty sure it's there somewhere in the Draconomicon).

You could realistically extend that to all other creatures, but Dragons are actually supported by Wizards as keeping their resistances after death and having listed hardness for most of their body parts.

[RoboEmperor]

Except when you get Dragon corpses, which still have Dragon DR and resistances. Or if you skin them and use them as fake Dracoliches, using Dragon Bone hardness(Pretty sure it's there somewhere in the Draconomicon).

You could realistically extend that to all other creatures, but Dragons are actually supported by Wizards as keeping their resistances after death and having listed hardness for most of their body parts.

None of the DR or resistances carry over to the object. Absolutely 0. Animated Objects is not a template. Nothing from the base creature/object carries over except hardness.

And the best you can get is gargantuan at caster level 16. CR7. There's a reason why literally no one uses the Animate Object spell. It is horrendously pitiful.

[ShurikVch]

I believe a Corpse should be considered an object.

Gentle Repose
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Corpse touched
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)Some objects are living too - such as Bag of Devouring (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#bagofDevouring), Beetle Buckler, or trees;
if it's alive - it can die;
if it can die - it may decompose;
if it may decompose - it may need Gentle Repose... :smallwink:

[The Kool]

Ah, the age-old debate.


A corpse is an object, but a dead creature is a creature.

...

Either that or corpses exist in some sort of superposition where they can be considered both a creature and an object simultaneously for the purposes of effects that would affect either one.

Pretty much this, as far as I can tell. The devs didn't really put much thought into it, so I personally see it as some sort of blurred middle ground that really requires judgment as to what the sensible call is in each situation. Clear as mud, yes?

[Remuko]

So the tl;dr of this all is


Is a corpse treated as a creature or an object?

Answer: YES

[unseenmage]

Some objects are living too - such as Bag of Devouring (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#bagofDevouring), Beetle Buckler, or trees;
if it's alive - it can die;
if it can die - it may decompose;
if it may decompose - it may need Gentle Repose... :smallwink:

Some Animated Objects are living thanks to plants being treated as objects for spell purposes (DMG p. 76).

[Hiro Quester]

Yes. It seems it can go both ways, depending on what you want to do with the corpse.

Raise it from the dead, it's a (potential) creature.

Keep it from decomposing further? It's an object (or at least saves like one).

Feed it to a monster? Cut bits off? Its an object.

Speak with it? It's a "dead creature" (according to Speak with Dead spell).

Animate it with an Animate Dead or Create Dead spell? It's a "corpse touched" according to the target of those spells.

[ShurikVch]

Some Animated Objects are living thanks to plants being treated as objects for spell purposes (DMG p. 76).The "living (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_living&alpha=)" is defined term in D&D; an Animated Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) isn't "living" - even if the object, from which it was made, is.

[unseenmage]

The "living (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_living&alpha=)" is defined term in D&D; an Animated Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) isn't "living" - even if the object, from which it was made, is.
Precisely. And corpses are creatures and not objects.
Can one True Creation a corpse? A specific bone? Shapesand a corpse?

The point was that adherence to strict RAW is silly.

Oh and Animated Object Livewood would still be an alive Construct. Explicitly.

[MisterKaws]

None of the DR or resistances carry over to the object. Absolutely 0. Animated Objects is not a template. Nothing from the base creature/object carries over except hardness.

And the best you can get is gargantuan at caster level 16. CR7. There's a reason why literally no one uses the Animate Object spell. It is horrendously pitiful.

There's a specific ruling in web enhancement that creature properties like resistance and DR carry over to their corpses. Don't remember where, but people were discussing mass-production of AMFs by chopping up a Colossus.


Precisely. And corpses are creatures and not objects.
Can one True Creation a corpse? A specific bone? Shapesand a corpse?

The point was that adherence to strict RAW is silly.

Oh and Animated Object Livewood would still be an alive Construct. Explicitly.

You can Power Word: Creation a corpse though.

[ShurikVch]

Oh and Animated Object Livewood would still be an alive Construct. Explicitly.No, it wouldn't - still no Con score
I will tell you more: no such thing as "alive Construct" without the "Living Construct" subtype

[MisterKaws]

No, it wouldn't - still no Con score
I will tell you more: no such thing as "alive Construct" without the "Living Construct" subtype

That's actually a highly dysfunctional ruling. The base material is living but after you make it even more living it's dead.

1+1=0???
Is this a flip-flop?

[ShurikVch]

That's actually a highly dysfunctional ruling. The base material is living but after you make it even more living it's dead.

1+1=0???
Is this a flip-flop?It's because Animate Objects doesn't make live - it make Constructs
Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) isn't alive by definition:
No Constitution score (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constitution).
...
Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy...Look at Maggot Golem (Dragon #339): maggots from which it made of are alive (require nourishment), but the Golem itself is not.

[MisterKaws]

It's because Animate Objects doesn't make live - it make Constructs
Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) isn't alive by definition:Look at Maggot Golem (Dragon #339): maggots from which it made of are alive (require nourishment), but the Golem itself is not.

My brain is becoming a construct just trying to make sense of this.

[RoboEmperor]

There's a specific ruling in web enhancement that creature properties like resistance and DR carry over to their corpses. Don't remember where, but people were discussing mass-production of AMFs by chopping up a Colossus.

You don't understand. The corpse may have DR and Resistance, but none of it carries over to the animated object. I repeat, AOs are not a template.

Creatures don't use hardness right? A dragon's body like you said may have stated hardness but none of it matters while the Dragon is alive right? Similarly, a corpse made into an Animated Object uses only the Hardness of the corpse and none of its resistances or DR matter. I could see a DM house ruling that an animated fire immune object be immune to fire but by RAW it's not.

Check out the monster entry fro Animated Objects. It will clearly show you that only the object's Size and Hardness matters. Everything else is ignored 100%. Size determines which of the 7 AOs you get and Hardness because the creature has Hardness (Ex) ability. There is no DR (Ex) or Resistances (Ex).

[unseenmage]

No, it wouldn't - still no Con score
I will tell you more: no such thing as "alive Construct" without the "Living Construct" subtype

Intelligent Magic Item Livewood staff. Explicitly a Construct. Explicitly alive.

[ShurikVch]

Intelligent Magic Item Livewood staff. Explicitly a Construct. Explicitly alive.Please, quote me that last "Explicitly" - because I already shown "Explicitly non-alive" Golem which made of completely alive maggots

[unseenmage]

Please, quote me that last "Explicitly" - because I already shown "Explicitly non-alive" Golem which made of completely alive maggots

A poor example to be sure. Similarly to swarms one doesnt target individual maggots.

An animated object slime would be one alive creature that is also a Construct.
An Livewood staff Int Magic Item would also not suffer the living-smaller-components issue.

Wouldnt specific wording of Livewood trump the general type description of Construct?

Much like the specific of Int Magic Item makes it a Construct regardless that not all items are Constructs.

[The Kool]

An animated object slime would be one alive creature that is also a Construct.

but you can't target a creature with Animate Objects.

[unseenmage]

but you can't target a creature with Animate Objects.

Slime the hazard from the DMG is treated as a plant for spell purposes.

[RoboEmperor]

If you cast animate object on a tree, is the resulting creature a living creature? Will it be a viable target for lesser vigor?

By RAW no. As ShurikVch said you need the Living Construct by RAW to be affected by living thing affectors and being a tree has no impact on the Animated Object's type.

If you think about it, you can't heal a tree with cure light wounds so why would you be able to heal a moving tree?

[unseenmage]

If you cast animate object on a tree, is the resulting creature a living creature? Will it be a viable target for lesser vigor?

By RAW no. As ShurikVch said you need the Living Construct by RAW to be affected by living thing affectors and being a tree has no impact on the Animated Object's type.

If you think about it, you can't heal a tree with cure light wounds so why would you be able to heal a moving tree?

Can you kill it with slay living?
I say yes, and that doing so wouldnt stop it being a Construct. The animating magic doesnt care if its alive. Only that it's an object.

[Malphegor]

I suspect this is one of those things where it counts as both depending on DM fiat and the wording of whatever you're trying to do.

If it helps (it won't), numerous bits of a corpse can BE objects! Bodak's eye is a part of a graft, mummified elves hands are popular for at will mage hand, skulls are common decor for necromancers and make good mugs if you block most of the holes with something. So bits of corpses can be objects, so then the question is if the whole counts as a object or does part of the magic item creation or regular item creation turn it into an object...

Personally for Purify Food and Drink, I'd assume the body no longer has any blood pumping through it, and various other signs of 'still living' are no longer functional.
So like, you might need to prep the body with a bit of cutting and/or pickling, you can't just hack off a leg and spell it and bam it's safe to eat au tatare.

[Hua]

Both

Look at a monk unarmed attack for example. It is explicitly both natural weapon and manufactured for purposes of spells.

A corpse is an object that has a subset of creature for certain effects.