Familiars, Animal Companions, Psicrystals, and Class Levels

[Segev]

Really silly thought occurred to me: anything with an Int of 3+ can technically take class levels, I think. Is there anything that prevents your familiar, particularly intelligent animal companion, or psicrystal from flat-out leveling up (in addition to whatever it gets from being associated with you)? I mean, I know there aren't exactly rules for permitting it to happen, but is there anything preventing it?

In the name of a nod to game balance and explaining how this chicanery even works, perhaps your class-leveled familiar is also your cohort for Leadership.

Now, I fully expect this to be impossible by the RAW, but I can't think right now of how it is. Thus I wanted to ask, and see what, if anything, I've missed or forgotten. Surely somebody would have suggested this as an optimization trick by now if it weren't against the rules as written...wouldn't they?

[Troacctid]

Well, for starters, they don't have an ECL and they don't gain xp.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, for starters, they don't have an ECL and they don't gain xp.

Actually, don't specific improved familiars have an ECL (Cohort)? Can't that somehow be used here?

[Jay R]

Familiars and animal companions do level up. They increase in hit points and abilities as their masters gain levels.

[RoboEmperor]

Familiars and animal companions do level up. They increase in hit points and abilities as their masters gain levels.

Familiars don't. They can use their master's HD for effects but they don't actually gain hd.

[Zaq]

Familiars and animal companions do level up. They increase in hit points and abilities as their masters gain levels.

I don’t think that’s the same thing as them gaining XP, though.

[Crichton]

Well, for starters, they don't have an ECL and they don't gain xp.


I don’t think that’s the same thing as them gaining XP, though.

Yeah, that's the thing here. Even if there's no rule preventing them from having class levels, there's no way for them to get class levels. Without XP, there's no mechanism for them to level up.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I know that a deity of a certain rank can make any creature, even one with class levels, its familiar. And nothing prevents that creature from gaining further levels.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, that's the thing here. Even if there's no rule preventing them from having class levels, there's no way for them to get class levels. Without XP, there's no mechanism for them to level up.

I don't know but couldn't there possibly be a way to get a familiar with LA (cohort) and that would make it have an ECL which lets it get xp? I really don't know, just speculation.

[noob]

The murkdweller is valid both as a familiar and as a character and have LA+0.
So be a murkdweller wizard then take as a familiar a murkdweller and teach it wizardry and then you have a wizard just like you as a class feature.(nearly like prestige except it takes its share of xp)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The murkdweller is valid both as a familiar and as a character and have LA+0.
So be a murkdweller wizard then take as a familiar a murkdweller and teach it wizardry and then you have a wizard just like you as a class feature.(nearly like prestige except it takes its share of xp)Beguilers, too. Which can also take class levels in beguiler. And Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar can get your beguiler beguiler a beguiler beguiler familiar, which can then do the same for you...

[Jay R]

I don’t think that’s the same thing as them gaining XP, though.

No, it isn't. It is, however, the clearly established mechanism for them to increase in abilities as you gain experience.

[Segev]

No, it isn't. It is, however, the clearly established mechanism for them to increase in abilities as you gain experience.

The question, then, is: Can they gain XP? It seems obvious they're not intended to gain them from adventuring with the PC; Cohorts have explicit rules for doing so. Hirelings and Followers don't have any rules about it, so their leveling is probably DM fiat, but assuming they gain XP for their own activities isn't unreasonable.

As a weird question, though, what if the familiar or psicrystal goes off on its own with an adventuring party, without its master? The connection is still there, obviously, but the master isn't gaining XP. Is the familiar or psicrystal entitled to a hireling's, cohort's, or even full party member's share of XP?

Can they even gain XP?


Edit: Heck, for familiars with LA or LA (Cohort), is it legal to take your own familiar as your cohort and start assigning him class levels on top of familiar bonuses? Having a personal connection to your cohort could be cool, and it's actually diminishing your action economy over a familiar + cohort combo that is the standard way of doing it, so it probably isn't overpowered. But is it legal? Or would your DM have to give special permission?

[Troacctid]

RAW they do not gain xp.

[Crichton]

The question, then, is: Can they gain XP? It seems obvious they're not intended to gain them from adventuring with the PC; Cohorts have explicit rules for doing so. Hirelings and Followers don't have any rules about it, so their leveling is probably DM fiat, but assuming they gain XP for their own activities isn't unreasonable.



If there aren't rules defining their ability to gain XP, then no they can't (or DM fiat). So unless they become a cohort, they cannot gain XP, and so cannot gain levels. As for the ramifications of them becoming a cohort and whether they'd still be your familiar, psicrystal, etc and follow the rules for those instead of/in addition to the rules for cohorts, well, I'll leave that to someone else.

[RoboEmperor]

If there aren't rules defining their ability to gain XP, then no they can't (or DM fiat). So unless they become a cohort, they cannot gain XP, and so cannot gain levels. As for the ramifications of them becoming a cohort and whether they'd still be your familiar, psicrystal, etc and follow the rules for those instead of/in addition to the rules for cohorts, well, I'll leave that to someone else.

Leadership Cohort not any cohort. Thaumaturgist cohort for example don't get xp.

[noob]

The question, then, is: Can they gain XP? It seems obvious they're not intended to gain them from adventuring with the PC; Cohorts have explicit rules for doing so. Hirelings and Followers don't have any rules about it, so their leveling is probably DM fiat, but assuming they gain XP for their own activities isn't unreasonable.

As a weird question, though, what if the familiar or psicrystal goes off on its own with an adventuring party, without its master? The connection is still there, obviously, but the master isn't gaining XP. Is the familiar or psicrystal entitled to a hireling's, cohort's, or even full party member's share of XP?

Can they even gain XP?


Edit: Heck, for familiars with LA or LA (Cohort), is it legal to take your own familiar as your cohort and start assigning him class levels on top of familiar bonuses? Having a personal connection to your cohort could be cool, and it's actually diminishing your action economy over a familiar + cohort combo that is the standard way of doing it, so it probably isn't overpowered. But is it legal? Or would your DM have to give special permission?

As long as your familiar or psycristal have a level adjustment that is not _(not having a defined level adjustment counts as having one of _) no rules oppose them from gaining xp (and so they would probably be able to gain xp)

However if you are using a psycristal you can send it on retraining quests to retrain their construct hit dice in more useful class levels since rhd counts as class levels too.

since retraining quest's ability to retrain levels is not defined as not being an effect it could arguably be an effect in which case you could use
"Hit Dice
For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher. "
And then have the familiar retrain virtual hit dice in virtual bard levels or whatever the heck it means.

[liquidformat]

In the case of special mounts, the DMG specifically calls out that you can designate your special mount as your cohort but it adds, LA. Using that as precedence I think you could do the same across the board. Animal companions and familiars specifically become magical beats when they become companions and are able to gain int greater than 2. Given that Special mount gives precedence and there is nothing calling it out that they can't I think it is reasonable to apply the same rules to familiar and animal companion.