Ability scaling

[ragnorack1]

Hi all,
I'm a fairly new player and have a question in regards to character building. While reading around I've noticed people recommending cantrips like eldritch blast or booming blade due to them scaling with character level rather than class level. I'm just wondering if this applies to abilities like divine strike or brutal critical, with them improving with character level rather than class level once unlocked as to my eye the wording looks identical/very close to the cantrips.

My gut says they still improve with class rather than character level as I like to err on the side of caution, but RAW I can't see why they would be treated differently to the cantrips. Again I'll err on the side of caution for the mean time, but would like to know just to improve my understanding of how rules are worded.

Many thanks.

[Mackatrin]

Hi all,
I'm a fairly new player and have a question in regards to character building. While reading around I've noticed people recommending cantrips like eldritch blast or booming blade due to them scaling with character level rather than class level. I'm just wondering if this applies to abilities like divine strike or brutal critical, with them improving with character level rather than class level once unlocked as to my eye the wording looks identical/very close to the cantrips.

My gut says they still improve with class rather than character level as I like to err on the side of caution, but RAW I can't see why they would be treated differently to the cantrips. Again I'll err on the side of caution for the mean time, but would like to know just to improve my understanding of how rules are worded.

Many thanks.

Good question however the easy way to look at it is this.

One is a class feature, the other is just a spell. Cantrips have to scale, due to the fact, that its what allows magic users to have good uptime for trash mobs, without blowing their spell slots. Where as the class feature is "hey play as this class because of this feature."

RAW doesn't state "You have to be this class for this feature to go up." However, I am 99% its just assumed that you do, because if not you'd get a crap load of free stats for 0 reason without any investment in the class and could just take 1 of everything and get massive power spikes, for 0 reason.

Thats my interpretation of it at least.

Back in 3.5, for spell casters you had classes that would say "+1 to existing "Spell type arcane/divine/etc" spell level and that would help scale your casting, if you were going into another class. 5e for the most part, just does it with levels.

Regardless of the case, I think this is a great question and one I had never thought of, so thanks for that.

[Unoriginal]

Class features do have "This feature improves when you reach X level in this class" disclaimer.

Cantrips and other abilities that increase in power based on the overall level are clearly indicated as doing so.

[ragnorack1]

Good question however the easy way to look at it is this.

One is a class feature, the other is just a spell. Cantrips have to scale, due to the fact, that its what allows magic users to have good uptime for trash mobs, without blowing their spell slots. Where as the class feature is "hey play as this class because of this feature."

RAW doesn't state "You have to be this class for this feature to go up." However, I am 99% its just assumed that you do, because if not you'd get a crap load of free stats for 0 reason without any investment in the class and could just take 1 of everything and get massive power spikes, for 0 reason.

Thats my interpretation of it at least.

Back in 3.5, for spell casters you had classes that would say "+1 to existing "Spell type arcane/divine/etc" spell level and that would help scale your casting, if you were going into another class. 5e for the most part, just does it with levels.

Regardless of the case, I think this is a great question and one I had never thought of, so thanks for that.

I agree with your reasoning in regards to giving casters a useful back up at higher levels. No worries it will be interesting if I can find an answer to this question.


Class features do have "This feature improves when you reach X level in this class" disclaimer.

Cantrips and other abilities that increase in power based on the overall level are clearly indicated as doing so.

Unfortunately at present I only have access to online resources, but neither dnd beyond or the basic rules pdf have either the can trips or the class features worded like that. Is the disclaimer within another section rather than the class description?

[Unoriginal]

Could you copypaste the texts of a cantrip and of, say, brutal critical from the sources you have access to, please? So we can see if there's anything missing.

[swamp_slug]

Unfortunately at present I only have access to online resources, but neither dnd beyond or the basic rules pdf have either the can trips or the class features worded like that. Is the disclaimer within another section rather than the class description?

A number of classes have abilities that basically state "You gain this ability at level X. At level Y this abilitiy improves", examples include:

Cleric has Divine Strike gained at 8th dealing +1d8 damage on a hit, which improves to +2d8 at 14th level.
Barbarian has Brutal Critical, which grants an additional die of damage on a critical hit at levels 9, 13 and 17.
Fighter has Action Surge, which is 1 use from level 2 and 2 uses from level 17, and Indomitable, which is 1 use from level 9 with extra uses gained at 13 and 17.

I'm sure I could find more examples if I spent more than 5 minutes looking.

These are all features of the specific class chosen and are written from the perspective of multi-classing being an optional rule. The intent therefore is that you must take the required level in the specified class to gain the scaled benefit. A key line to note is in chapter 6 of the PHB under Multiclassing > Class Features (accessible from the Sources drop-down on D&D Beyond if you have purchased the PHB).

When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level.
Which implies what I stated above, that each class feature is intended to be specific to that class. If you are Cleric 13/Fighter 1 you trade any ability you would have gained at Cleric 14 (including the Divine Strike scaling) for the abilities of a 1st level Fighter (Second Wind and Fighting Style).

If you have access to D&D Beyond then I suggest looking at the class table for Barbarian on the class listings (TheBarbarianTable (https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/barbarian#TheBarbarianTable)), you should see Brutal Critical listed at levels 9, 13 and 17. Since the team at D&D Beyond are in close contact with WotC, this can be seen as the design intent.
All of these features therefore scale with Class level. You should effectively read each enhanced version of a feature as a new class feature gained at the higher class level that replaces the lower level version.

Cantrips work differently, despite similar wording. They are not class features, although access may be granted by a class feature you can also gain access to cantrips via races and feats. Because of this, and to keep their damage relevant at higher levels they scale with Character level rather than Class level.

[ragnorack1]

Could you copypaste the texts of a cantrip and of, say, brutal critical from the sources you have access to, please? So we can see if there's anything missing.

Sure, sources are from DND beyond:

Eldritch blast- "The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level. You can direct the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each beam."

Divine Strike (from the cleric page)- "At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with divine energy. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 radiant damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8."

No differentiation between class and character levels. I've left Brutal Critical as Swamp Slug points out the later increases are covered on the table.


A number of classes have abilities that basically state "You gain this ability at level X. At level Y this abilitiy improves", examples include:

Cleric has Divine Strike gained at 8th dealing +1d8 damage on a hit, which improves to +2d8 at 14th level.
Barbarian has Brutal Critical, which grants an additional die of damage on a critical hit at levels 9, 13 and 17.
Fighter has Action Surge, which is 1 use from level 2 and 2 uses from level 17, and Indomitable, which is 1 use from level 9 with extra uses gained at 13 and 17.

I'm sure I could find more examples if I spent more than 5 minutes looking.

Aye my point was in regards to the descriptions differentiating between class and character levels.


These are all features of the specific class chosen and are written from the perspective of multi-classing being an optional rule. The intent therefore is that you must take the required level in the specified class to gain the scaled benefit. A key line to note is in chapter 6 of the PHB under Multiclassing > Class Features (accessible from the Sources drop-down on D&D Beyond if you have purchased the PHB).

Which implies what I stated above, that each class feature is intended to be specific to that class. If you are Cleric 13/Fighter 1 you trade any ability you would have gained at Cleric 14 (including the Divine Strike scaling) for the abilities of a 1st level Fighter (Second Wind and Fighting Style).

If you have access to D&D Beyond then I suggest looking at the class table for Barbarian on the class listings , you should see Brutal Critical listed at levels 9, 13 and 17. Since the team at D&D Beyond are in close contact with WotC, this can be seen as the design intent.
All of these features therefore scale with Class level. You should effectively read each enhanced version of a feature as a new class feature gained at the higher class level that replaces the lower level version.

Cantrips work differently, despite similar wording. They are not class features, although access may be granted by a class feature you can also gain access to cantrips via races and feats. Because of this, and to keep their damage relevant at higher levels they scale with Character level rather than Class level.

Thanks that's really helpful :smallsmile: the table makes it pretty definitive for brutal critical requiring class level for improvement, I suppose an argument could be made for divine strike improving with character level as it is not included in the table, but I suppose that is due to it being a sub-class feature.

One last question, is where is stated that cantrips are treated differently in regards to class and character levels? Now I've given it more thought I don't see why should be treated differently from a balance point of view as spells you can take are defined by class and a spell caster would still benefit if they grew by class level rather than character.

It's reassuring to know I've been playing correctly and not missing out on an advantage but now it's got me thinking if the made cantrips go by character level it would reduce the number of warlock dips you get and maybe see folk invest a little deeper into the character.

[Chronos]

While that is the way it does work, the way I think it should work would be that cantrip scaling is a class feature of the full-casting classes at levels 6, 11, and 17. You can't take just a couple of levels of fighter and expect to keep on getting more attacks as you level up, so why should you be able to do that by taking a couple of levels of warlock?

[Contrast]

One last question, is where is stated that cantrips are treated differently in regards to class and character levels? Now I've given it more thought I don't see why should be treated differently from a balance point of view as spells you can take are defined by class and a spell caster would still benefit if they grew by class level rather than character.

It's reassuring to know I've been playing correctly and not missing out on an advantage but now it's got me thinking if the made cantrips go by character level it would reduce the number of warlock dips you get and maybe see folk invest a little deeper into the character.

Hmm that's interesting. This was at some point in the Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.03.pdf) under cantrips but doesn't seem to be in the most recent version (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf). Weird.

And yeah, making eldritch blast a class feature is a relatively common tweak suggested to warlocks, both to avoid inexperienced players not choosing it at character creation and limit the power of multiclassing.

Edit - Oh wait its because they errata'd (http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf) it.

In the Spells known and prepared section of the multiclassing rules:


If a cantrip of yours increases in power at higher levels, the increase is based on your character level, not your level in a particular class.

[Lunali]

While that is the way it does work, the way I think it should work would be that cantrip scaling is a class feature of the full-casting classes at levels 6, 11, and 17. You can't take just a couple of levels of fighter and expect to keep on getting more attacks as you level up, so why should you be able to do that by taking a couple of levels of warlock?

So if you're not a full caster you can't use cantrips? Most warlock dips are on full casters or are for the short rest slots or class features rather than the cantrips.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So if you're not a full caster you can't use cantrips? Most warlock dips are on full casters or are for the short rest slots or class features rather than the cantrips.

Not to mention that cantrips[1] are rather lack-luster as far as at-will damage goes. One roll, not multiple, so all or nothing. No ability modifier.

A caster using nothing but cantrips does about 50% of the at will damage of a martial.

Oh, and no scaling means that EK/AT lose a lot and MI is nerfed.

[1] agonizing Eldritch blast is the exception, because it's the mainstay of most warlocks. It's basically their extra attack feature. It costs a lot to get: two levels in a class that doesn't advance your regular spell casting.

[Chronos]

That's like saying "if you're not a martial class you can't use weapons". A character with a one-level dip in a caster class or the Magic Initiate feat or whatever would still be able to use cantrips, just like a character with a one-level dip in Fighter or the Weapon Master feat can still use a sword. They just won't be as good at it as the character who's built for it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's like saying "if you're not a martial class you can't use weapons". A character with a one-level dip in a caster class or the Magic Initiate feat or whatever would still be able to use cantrips, just like a character with a one-level dip in Fighter or the Weapon Master feat can still use a sword. They just won't be as good at it as the character who's built for it.

You can use them, but they're a trap option 100% of the time without scaling. So yay? And the only ones who build for cantrips are warlocks, who do so through class features. For everyone else, they're a last resort, and an ineffectual one at that.

Additionally, not all cantrips scale the same way. So your proposal requires special casing each and every cantrip and closing the door to adding new ones without changing the class text. Or redundantly and confusingly splitting the scaling text.

Seriously, you've got a solution to a problem no one has. Automatically scaling cantrips are the easiest way to do what the classes do now. They break nothing and enable lots of creative solutions and builds. All for what?

[Potato_Priest]

While that is the way it does work, the way I think it should work would be that cantrip scaling is a class feature of the full-casting classes at levels 6, 11, and 17. You can't take just a couple of levels of fighter and expect to keep on getting more attacks as you level up, so why should you be able to do that by taking a couple of levels of warlock?

For most cantrips I disagree, finding it to be a non-issue. Eldrich Blast however should just be its own class feature of the warlock class, that scales at warlock levels 5, 11, and 20 to perfectly mirror the fighter's extra attack progression.