Problems with stealth at high levels?

[Phoenix042]

A group I DM for is reaching the high levels (level 13 right now, almost 14) and we plan to run past 20th level, and eventually fight gods.

One of them is a very stealth focused character and I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with high level play enough to answer these question: Is stealth possible at the higher levels? Is it balanced?

Does everything have blindsense, true seeing, etc too easily available? Is there a way around those problems that isn't an automatic "I win" button?"

What I'd like is a scenario where we're still rolling dice and actually caring about the rolls at that point. Where the magics and counter magics leave strategy, planning, and skill as the ultimate determining factors and we don't just have either "stealth is automatic because high level magic" or "stealth is impossible because high level magic."

I've looked at a few high level stat blocks but I'm really wondering if anyone can give me insight from actual gameplay experience.

[Ganryu]

A group I DM for is reaching the high levels (level 13 right now, almost 14) and we plan to run past 20th level, and eventually fight gods.

One of them is a very stealth focused character and I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with high level play enough to answer these question: Is stealth possible at the higher levels? Is it balanced?

Does everything have blindsense, true seeing, etc too easily available? Is there a way around those problems that isn't an automatic "I win" button?"

What I'd like is a scenario where we're still rolling dice and actually caring about the rolls at that point. Where the magics and counter magics leave strategy, planning, and skill as the ultimate determining factors and we don't just have either "stealth is automatic because high level magic" or "stealth is impossible because high level magic."

I've looked at a few high level stat blocks but I'm really wondering if anyone can give me insight from actual gameplay experience.


Yes its possible, and its almost brokenly good!

Unless someone is spying on you 24/7 with a scry spell (Which you can block with nondetection), the rest just come down to creativity.

True sight? Hide behind another object. Or Camo/disguise kit. (true sight screws over magical means of transforming, says nothing of physical.

Blind sense? Move quietly.

Locate Creature? Be out of range.

If they are using magic, most of the time, they have to know you were there first.

Heck, the hardest thing to get past is probably a good ol' alarm spell.

They are still sensing you somehow, and just because its not by sight doesn't mean you can't find creative ways around it, you just have to go in detail of HOW you are stealthing.

[mephiztopheleze]

It's been a long time since I've played at those kinds of levels, but from (very hazy) memory: yes, I recall stealth becomes much more difficult as blindsense and truesight enabled opponents are everywhere.

At these levels (honestly, anything above ~11 or 12) it's time for the party casters to start seriously earning their keep. Stealth is often still *possible*, but will require resources to be reliable and there will definitely be occasions where it's just not possible.

How you wish to rule on it is up to you, but if we're talking 'Gods' on their home planes, then sneaking up on them should be basically impossible for a mere mortal.

[Chronos]

Stealth works the same way against all senses. A creature with Blindsense still needs to roll Perception vs. your Stealth. Blindsense, True Sight, etc. will defeat Invisibility, but that just means that you need skill instead of the spell.

[Tanarii]

Stealth works the same way against all senses. A creature with Blindsense still needs to roll Perception vs. your Stealth. Blindsense, True Sight, etc. will defeat Invisibility, but that just means that you need skill instead of the spell.
You need to be able to be at least partially concealed from sight and other senses in order to make a roll. If there's no chance of success, if they will automatically detect you with at least one sense, there's often no point in rolling. Although sometimes the remaining senses still matter, as in:
guard1: What's that? I heard something!
Guard2: I don't see anything. Stop trippin'

Blindsense, Tremorsense, and Truesight remove the ability to be concealed as easily. Or rather, they make auto detection far more likely through the special sense, thus often removing the basis for making a Stealth check.

[Great Dragon]

As above.

Also, it depends on if you are using Passive or Active Perception.

If passive, just beat the creature's score.

You can also steal the 4e Skill Test, where the majority of the group needs to beat the creature's Passive Perception, or it becomes hostile.

[Shuruke]

Yes its possible, and its almost brokenly good!

Unless someone is spying on you 24/7 with a scry spell (Which you can block with nondetection), the rest just come down to creativity.

True sight? Hide behind another object. Or Camo/disguise kit. (true sight screws over magical means of transforming, says nothing of physical.

Blind sense? Move quietly.

Locate Creature? Be out of range.

If they are using magic, most of the time, they have to know you were there first.

Heck, the hardest thing to get past is probably a good ol' alarm spell.

They are still sensing you somehow, and just because its not by sight doesn't mean you can't find creative ways around it, you just have to go in detail of HOW you are stealthing.

Something to keep in mind is blind sense isnt just about sound made
In order to get obscurity from blindsense you need cover
Whether foliage or a wall etc

Another way to overcome blindsense true sight etc
Is range
A longbow or heavy crossbow with sharpshooter outranges all blindsense and true sight

Sure in small places this isn't as possible but that's when u use the creativity


I have a level 19 a.t abd most of the campaign has been against things with echolocation
Skulker feat and reliable talent along with a permanent nondetection has led to some real fun moments

[Ritorix]

Stealth not only remains relevant, it becomes increasingly difficult for creatures to detect stealthed characters. Once rogues start rolling a minimum of 10 on skills and have stealth expertise you can forget about any creature in the MM detecting them with passive perception.

Truesight also doesn't do anything against stealth. Truesight lets you see invisible creatures. Stealth does not provide invisibility. (see JC: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/786003400517300224)

That leaves blindsight, which only lets blind creatures see. That also doesn't pierce the cover you need for stealth automatically. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/555090323269906432)

Tremorsense also does not automatically pierce stealth. (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/944013100943994880)

[Tanarii]

Truesight also doesn't do anything against stealth. Truesight lets you see invisible creatures.

TRUESIGHT
A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual iilusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.

MM p9

True sight removes the ability to use darkness or dim light for concealment to enable stealth, to hide behind illusions, or to hide because you are invisible.

[Ritorix]

True sight removes the ability to use darkness or dim light for concealment to enable stealth, to hide behind illusions, or to hide because you are invisible.

Right; I've edited that post a bit with the references.

Advanced senses can remove some of the conditions that allow stealth to happen in the first place. They don't directly affect stealth. I usually saw a lot of halflings hiding behind objects/other creatures, which can only be hard countered by moving the source of the cover.

[Tanarii]

Right; I've edited that post a bit with the references.

Advanced senses can remove some of the conditions that allow stealth to happen in the first place. They don't directly affect stealth. I usually saw a lot of halflings hiding behind objects/other creatures, which can only be hard countered by moving the source of the cover.
Agreed, but IMX the most common uses of attempting stealth, outside of Halflings and generically trying to trail someone in a crowd, are in:
- total Darkness (or dim light with Skulker)
- invisibility
- complete opaque obscurement (Fog Cloud, Foliage) (partial with Wood Elf)
- full cover

[SirGraystone]

A smart monster after a few hit and hide from the rogue, can use a ready action for the incoming attack before the rogue hide again.

[Keravath]

Agreed, but IMX the most common uses of attempting stealth, outside of Halflings and generically trying to trail someone in a crowd, are in:
- total Darkness (or dim light with Skulker)
- invisibility
- complete opaque obscurement (Fog Cloud, Foliage) (partial with Wood Elf)
- full cover

Truesight prevents the first two but not the second two. (Truesight doesn't see through a fog cloud because it isn't an illusion).
Blindsight prevents the first two but also opaque obscurement by visual effects like fog cloud but not obscurement by actual cover.

None of the enhanced senses (that I am aware of) lets the creature see through total cover so stepping behind a wall or other obstruction should still work at any level.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Beyond all this, the fact remains that you're not exclusively fighting high-CR creatures at higher levels, nor do all high-CR creatures have secondary senses. And secondary senses are also just as common among lower CR. A full SRD list follows. There's a lot of mid/high CR creatures without any extra senses at all beyond darkvision.

Truesight
Planetar, Solar (T4)
Couatl (T1)
Balor (T4)
Glabrezu (T2)
Marilith (T3)
Nalfeshnee (T3)
Erinyes (T3)
Pit Fiend (T4)
Kraken (T4)
Lich (T4)
Sphinxes (T3)

Blindsight
Animated Armor / Flying Sword / Rug of Smothering (T1)
Darkmantle (T1)
Ice Devil (T3)
Dragons (T1-T4)
Shrieker/Violet Fungus (T1)
Grimlock (T1)
Half-dragon template (TX)
Oozes (T1)
Pseudodragon (T1)
Purple Worm (T3)
Shambling Mound (T2)
Shield Guardian (T2)
Tarrasque (T4+)

Tremorsense
Ankheg (T1)
Bulette (T2)
Earth Elemental (T2)
Purple Worm (T3)
Remorhaz (T3)
Xorn (T2)

[djreynolds]

"They passed by the fence no more than a dozen feet from the two intruders, but so adept at hiding in the shadows was Artemis Entreri that they never noticed the strange jut in the previously smooth stalagmite" R.A. Salvatore Starless Night

This how good you should be at stealth at higher levels.

Just forget rolling and have your players explain it in detail just how they are going to avoid detection. If there is a beef, then you roll for a specific area or portion.

Find a point in your player's plan where failure could occur and then roll.

If they are using a spell such as pass without a trace, maybe their adversary has detect magic up and going. This where a DM now forces a roll.

So just have the player tell you what they are going to do, and at the weakest part of plan... there could be a roll or possible detection

[Yuroch Kern]

All of this. At low levels, skill because of little magic. Mid-levels, magic everywhere!...High-level, magic is auto-pierced and probably giving out your position, so back to skill with a little luck too. The real problem I've had is when a couple of players think the Skyrim crouch is perfectly reasonable as a legitimate Stealth attempt, citing a +10 mod with advantage as cover. They are strangely shocked when it doesn't work...

[darknite]

Stealth is still very viable at high level but you need to be aware of capabilities that minimize its' effect.

I've got a 20th level Fighter/Rogue/Druid with a Cloak of Elvenkind, Stealth Expertise and access to never-ending Pass W/Out a Trace spells (via Staff of the Woodlands) who's minimum Stealth ability check is 28 (on double 1s with an advantaged roll) vs an opponent's disadvantaged Perception check. Max roll is 47 and average is 37. There's practically no non-deity in the game that can detect him when things are going well.

However the environment has to be acceptable for Stealth to work. In our game you need to be behind cover for Stealth to be effective. If there's nothing to obscure you and you're in the open, Stealth doesn't work (unless you're invisible, which is easily bypassed by high level opponents). The secret is staying in cover when you make your Stealth check. If you break cover an opponent will see you and even have an idea of where you were when you make your Stealth check and move to establish a clear line of sight or just blindly target an area they assume you're in with an AoE.

Also some creatures have senses that negate cover - Tremorsense can at least give an indication of something being in the area if they meet the criteria for giving themselves away (moving fast, moving on a surface shared by the creature with Tremorsense, etc). Blindsight just means the viewer isn't dependent on sight (and therefore light) for vision, but vision is otherwise assumed. Most DMs interpret Blindsight as negating Invisibility, though this is not a universal interpretation. True Sight removes being invisible or using Illusions for Stealth or posing as a Polymorphed/Shapechanged creature as well as piercing normal or magical darkness.

As a DM you can use these various conditions to make environments perilous to a Stealthy PC. However at the end of the day, unless you have special 'X is aware of everything' rules due to special conditions, the PC still follows the Stealth rules as normal throughout the standard range of character levels. As a PC you need to know your abilities and use the environment to its' best effect to keep to the shadows. Attacking normally breaks being hidden, so maintaining Stealth in a battle can be challenging (though Rogues do it quite easily).

[RSP]

One other thing I didn’t see posted yet (apologies if I missed it), is there’s a difference in combat stealth and out-of-combat stealth.

In combat a creature is generally aware of everything within its field of notice, so yeah, you need cover or concealment to hide.

Out-of-combat, the DM shouldn’t necessarily have characters “auto-notice” everything; just because a character can notice 200’ around him, doesn’t mean they’re always paying attention to everything that goes on around them, 100% of the time.

[darknite]

One other thing I didn’t see posted yet (apologies if I missed it), is there’s a difference in combat stealth and out-of-combat stealth.

In combat a creature is generally aware of everything within its field of notice, so yeah, you need cover or concealment to hide.

Out-of-combat, the DM shouldn’t necessarily have characters “auto-notice” everything; just because a character can notice 200’ around him, doesn’t mean they’re always paying attention to everything that goes on around them, 100% of the time.

This is a good point. I've had DMs that give alert PCs advantage on Perc checks (passive or active) and disadvantage to those not on alert. There's also a point where as a DM you just let certain stealth-based actions ("My halfling rogue scuttles across the road 100' behind the enemy (who has no idea he's in the area) and behind a tree") where you can just let it happen unless there's some outstanding reason to not just let it autopass.