Opinions/Clarification wanted re: Illusion Wizard

[Tallytrev813]

Hi, first time creating a thread, new member.

So I was introduced to D&D about 2 years ago and I absolutely love it. I moved to a new area really far away for my first job after medical school and was invited to try it - totally addicted. Friend ran Curse of Strahd, I played Warlock (and Bard in the subsequent campaign before the DM moved)

Anyway,

I picked up Fight club 5 app and have been playing with characters, wanted to know

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School of Illusion, is it really as awesome as I’m reading?

Seems to start slow, but at level 14, and then 18 - oh my god.

I’m reading such that I can make Silent image and Misty Step free casts, that I can use my Bonus action to turn my free-cast silent image into...reality? And I can use my action to alter said image as I see fit? (Changing it, moving it, etc?)

So, let’s talk application.

You’re telling me that those 5 orcs charging me, I can silent image a 15 foot cube hole in the ground, and bonus action make it real?

Then, after they fall in, I can Bonus action Misty Step away - and Action change nature of my hole to make it a new illusion of, say, a metal barred cage (thus removing the hole, and burying the Orcs alive).

Now - that Archer shooting me - I can action move the cage on top of the ranger (change the nature by putting the cage in motion), then bonus action make the cage real, trapping him?

Now I can, essentially, drag him over a cliff and change the cage, dropping him off a cliff?


Is this how this works? I just can’t -directly- damage the targets? I know ultimately it’s DM discretion, but am I applying these abilities correctly? I can do all that without even using a spell slot?

[Dualswinger]

Most dms I know don’t allow gaps or holes to be made real, since they don’t count as an “object”.

Don’t forget the ease of use that a 6th level permanent major image can accomplish for you with malleable illusions. The reality maker is a great tool, but I’d almost say that malleable is the better ability with a bit of imagination.

Also, get to level 13 and use mirage arcane to win any battle.

[Wizard_Lizard]

tales a while to get to those levels though.

[Dalebert]

What Duelswinger said. Silent Image makes the illusion of something; not the lack thereof. If you want to make an illusion of something there not being there, you need other spells like Invisibility or Mirage Arcane.

At 6 you can cast Silent Image (or any other illusion spell) and use your action during the duration to change it to something else.

At 14, you can turn an object in the illusion real with your bonus action so you could, for instance, cast Silent Image of a 15ft cube cage around enemies and make it real. That object is now REAL for one minute; not an illusion, so you can't actually alter the real object nor can you get rid of it. If you stop concentrating, the rest of the illusion spell will vanish but not that object.

Another reason you can't alter it is because that ability is only once per spell cast. So for instance, you can cast Major Image at 6th level and now you have a permanent illusion under your control that you can alter with your action. However, once you make an object in that illusion real you can never do that again on that particular casting of Major Image.

Example: You make a Silent Image of a Giant carrying a boulder. You use your bonus action to make the boulder real. It now falls to the ground subject to gravity (but it can't hurt anything. Figure the fluff of that however you want.) and sits there acting like a boulder in every way for one minute aside from being unable to hurt anything. The giant, meanwhile, is still an illusion under your control. The axe at his side? You can't make that real because you've already used that ability on this illusion.

[Tallytrev813]

What Duelswinger said. Silent Image makes the illusion of something; not the lack thereof. If you want to make an illusion of something there not being there, you need other spells like Invisibility or Mirage Arcane.

Quite a few of these issues had crossed my mind.

A hole in the ground isn’t actually “lack there of.” Empty space, true empty space, is actual space, like outside our atmosphere.

A hole in the ground is an illusion of air in place of dirt. It’s no different than putting an illusion of a boulder, rock, in a space currently occupied by air.

A great example of this:
I loved loony toons when I was a kid.
Remember when Wild-E-Coyote used to paint a tunnel in the rock - and then Road runner would run through it. Then Wild-E would, confused, chase him and smash his face into the wall?

Perfect example of use of an illusion. That tunnel is an object, as is the hole. It’s a 15ft collection of air, no different than if you created a 15 ft cube of cow manure - one is simply more dense than the other.



At 6 you can cast Silent Image (or any other illusion spell) and use your action during the duration to change it to something else.

At 14, you can turn an object in the illusion real with your bonus action so you could, for instance, cast Silent Image of a 15ft cube cage around enemies and make it real. That object is now REAL for one minute; not an illusion, so you can't actually alter the real object nor can you get rid of it. If you stop concentrating, the rest of the illusion spell will vanish but not that object.

The reality portion reads as though it implies the real portion of the illusion ends when you end the spell - I think.

It describes the object as being “woven with shadow magic” and “semi-real”, and gives the example of
“For example, you can create an illusion of a bridge over a chasm and then make it real long enough for your allies to cross.”

I may be reading in to it too much, and you may be right though. Having said that, the object remaining real means I can add on to it if it remains when the spell ends - like a hole and another hole and another hole.

Example: Outside of combat, I make a 15 ft staircase upward, make it real, climb it, then I make another on top of that. Because silent image is free cast, I lead the party 500 ft in the air and traverse a walkway over an army of orcs, then safely down.



Another reason you can't alter it is because that ability is only once per spell cast. So for instance, you can cast Major Image at 6th level and now you have a permanent illusion under your control that you can alter with your action. However, once you make an object in that illusion real you can never do that again on that particular casting of Major Image.

Example: You make a Silent Image of a Giant carrying a boulder. You use your bonus action to make the boulder real. It now falls to the ground subject to gravity (but it can't hurt anything. Figure the fluff of that however you want.) and sits there acting like a boulder in every way for one minute aside from being unable to hurt anything. The giant, meanwhile, is still an illusion under your control. The axe at his side? You can't make that real because you've already used that ability on this illusion.

I did think of this as well, and I think I agree with you. The text reads as though you can create reality ONCE per spell, but you can alter the non-reality once PER ACTION - correct?

So, legally, I could create an illusion of a cage that’s in motion towards an enemy and a cliff

(Cage —-> Enemy—->Cliff)

And simply make it real as it passes over the enemy. The cage is circular, like a barred hamster ball, so it simply rolls off the cliff with the enemy in it.

When silent image becomes a free cast, this all gets crazy powerful. Your power is only limited by your creativity.

Imagine:
I make an illusion of unhardened concrete inside my enemies mouth, nose, and over his eyes. Now I make it real.

I make an illusion of handcuffs on those 2 enemies hands and feet (that are within 15 ft of each other) and connect the handcuffs to a boulder on the ground. Now I make it all real.

[Tanarii]

Basic illusions (Minor Image, Silent Illusion, Major Image) don't remove what's already there. So if you overlap an illusion of a hole in the ground with the ground, people see the ground. At best you can try to overlay a 2D perspective trick of a hole in the ground over the real ground. How well that works at fooling people will depend on your DM (does it depend on angle viewed from?), but it certainly won't help with your Illusionary Reality hole trick.

(Just as for sound illusions, you couldn't replace something being said with something else. But you could drown it out.)

[Tallytrev813]

Basic illusions (Minor Image, Silent Illusion, Major Image) don't remove what's already there. So if you overlap an illusion of a hole in the ground with the ground, people see the ground. At best you can try to overlay a 2D perspective trick of a hole in the ground over the real ground. How well that works at fooling people will depend on your DM (does it depend on angle viewed from?), but it certainly won't help with your Illusionary Reality hole trick.

(Just as for sound illusions, you couldn't replace something being said with something else. But you could drown it out.)

I’m not sure this makes sense to me.

Disguise self, a basic illusion spell, allows you to make yourself appear 1 ft shorter. Says so in the text. You appear 1 ft shorter, but that’s not 1 foot of empty space, it just appears that way. If a rock is thrown 3 inches above your 1 ft shorter head, it still hits you in your actual face (touching reveals true form)

Isn’t that “removing what’s there”?

“If you use this spell to appear thinner than you are, the hand of someone who reaches out to touch you would bump into you while it was seemingly still in midair.”


Sound is a different animal, as 2 sounds can be present at once. Silencing sound WOULD be like creating empty space (like outer space)



Also, thank you for replies everyone. I hope I don’t come off argumentative - just meaning to discuss interpretation.

[Tanarii]

I’m not sure this makes sense to me.

Disguise self, a basic illusion spell, allows you to make yourself appear 1 ft shorter. Says so in the text. You appear 1 ft shorter, but that’s not 1 foot of empty space, it just appears that way. If a rock is thrown 3 inches above your 1 ft shorter head, it still hits you in your actual face (touching reveals true form)

Isn’t that “removing what’s there”?Of course. It works because it says it does. Meanwhile, the basic illusions don't say that. They specifically create an illusion of something. They do not remove something that is there, unlike Disguise Self.

[Tallytrev813]

Of course. It works because it says it does. Meanwhile, the basic illusions don't say that. They specifically create an illusion of something. They do not remove something that is there, unlike Disguise Self.

Nothing removes anything, it creates a false visual experience of something. Making an illusion of a rock visually replaces the air (removing the air by your definition), but interacting with that space is interacting with the actual object that’s there - if it’s air you reach through it, if it’s ground it’s solid.

I guess my point was:

A.) that there are mechanics for “lack there of.”

B.) that air isn’t empty space. Outer space is empty space. Create a block of ice. Create a block of water. Create a block of steam. If you can create steam or a cloud (a gas) I don’t see why you can’t create air (also a gas). It’s not “empty space.” Creating an image of rock where there was air is almost the same as creating an image of air where there is rock. Only difference is the density of the matter, and the Ice-water-steam example shows density isn’t a deciding factor.

C.) The text in Silent Image reads “You create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 15-foot cube.” And a hole seems like it’d be a “visual phenomenon.”


Obviously all is up to interpretation and DM discretion.

I suppose the heart of the issue is, are you considering Air as matter, or as empty space?

To me, air is matter, it’s just less dense. An illusion of a rock replaces the air (visually) that was in that space.

[Tanarii]

B.) that air isn’t empty space. Outer space is empty space.


C.) The text in Silent Image reads “You create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 15-foot cube.” And a hole seems like it’d be “visual phenomenon.”
Yes yes, that's the two most attempted justifications for players attempting this shenanigans. They're clearly exactly that, so hopefully no right minded DM will fall for them. But neither one changes that an illusion of (unseen) air overlapping ground means you just see the ground.

The other common attempted justification is "hole = object", but it still runs into the same problem.

[Tallytrev813]

Yes yes, that's the two most attempted justifications for players attempting this shenanigans. They're clearly exactly that, so hopefully no right minded DM will fall for them. But neither one changes that an illusion of (unseen) air overlapping ground means you just see the ground.

The other common attempted justification is "hole = object", but it still runs into the same problem.

So I take it this is a common question, and you make it sound as though the consensus is no holes...
Like I said I’m relatively new to all this, and I def don’t want to come off as “that guy” to my DM

[Segev]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks

This thread is probably relevant; I made it when I first fell in love with Malleable Illusions.

[Tallytrev813]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks

This thread is probably relevant; I made it when I first fell in love with Malleable Illusions.

I started reading through it,

Awesome link. Thank you so much for the info!

[Tanarii]

So I take it this is a common question, and you make it sound as though the consensus is no holes...
Like I said I’m relatively new to all this, and I def don’t want to come off as “that guy” to my DMFull disclosure, it is a common question, and I am stating my personal opinion, not a consensus. There are many aspects of illusions that are very debateable, and boil down to "ask your DM". Not "listen to this random guy on a forum who told me it won't work."

But on the flip side, you cant assume it will work either. Ask your DM.

Another one to ask about is how physical interaction and seeing through illysions works. Is it automatic faint for the person doing it? Anyone who sees it happen, it goes faint? Must make an Int Investigation check to go faint, and physical interaction just lets you know its an illusion?