Help building a support character

[RallinaTricolor]

Hello!

I'm relatively new to PF and joining a campaign my friend is starting in a few weeks. I've been playing/DMing 5e for about four years now so I have a pretty solid foundation of D&D mechanics, but I think I got to maybe level 4 (Oracle/Paladin) in the only other PF campaign I played. As such, I really don't have a solid understanding of the options available (both classes and feats) in PF and was hoping I could get some advice.

The kind of characters I like to play are generally support heavy: buffing/debuffing, healing, battlefield control, etc. and I'm fine with crazy number crunch and rules heavy combos being part of the characters I play. So far I had a couple of ideas for the upcoming game. Right now, I don't know how many players there will be or what classes they'll be playing, but I'm pretty confident that a support role will be something useful. As far as available material, my DM is pretty open to things, including third-party content. Starting at level 1.

1) Life Leech Sadist Vitalist. I like the Network effects and the class looks like it does really cool stuff with healing/buffs by augmenting the psionics to give them to allies as well as the Unwilling Participant being a cool way to deal damage in combat. My concern here is that this class looks like it could very quickly turn into a lot of attempts to force people into the network and just wasting turn after turn if they make their saves. The buffing/healing aspect is still there but I'm a bit worried that basically there will be certain combats where I just can't do anything interesting.

2) Evangelist Cleric. This looked like an interesting way to be a divine bard, and I've seen a lot of posts suggesting using it as a summoner as well as buffing. However, it really looks like it's sacrificing a lot of the core cleric competencies in exchange for these features which I'm not totally convinced is worth it.

Beyond that I'm not really sure what else might fit the bill of what I'm looking for (or even if this style of play is useful) so any feedback here would be really appreciated!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I played a support-focused Human Sorcerer with the False Priest archetype a while back, it worked out quite well. Always get more 1st+ level spells for your favored class bonus.

Once you hit 9th level you can pick up a few caster level 20 wands of Cleric spells with only one charge remaining so they're 1/50th the price, when you activate them with UMD you'll spend a Sorcerer spell slot instead of a charge. Get Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, and any other utility/support spells you want like cure spells, lesser restoration, etc.

Take Magical Lineage for something extremely debilitating that can benefit from Bouncing Spell, such as Blindness/Deafness. Bouncing Spell is particularly good with the Arcane bloodline as you'll also get +1 DC when using that.

Always try to use spells on opponents that they'll likely have a low base save against, depending on their creature type for racial HD, or how they're equipped if humanoid. Any arcane/divine focus indicates they'll have a high base will save, martial weapons or medium/heavy armor indicates a high base fortitude save, and light armor usually means they'll have a decent or high reflex save.

[Kurald Galain]

Evangelist is great. You don't lose a lot of core competencies, you just lose one domain. Bard song is an excellent party buff, particularly once you can start it as a move action (i.e. level 7). Channel Energy has some crazy buffing potential, particularly with Irori's variant channel, or Milani's Beacon of Hope. I don't see how this build has anything to do with summoning, really.

Bard or Skald are of course good buffers, as is the Medium.

[RallinaTricolor]

Once you hit 9th level you can pick up a few caster level 20 wands of Cleric spells with only one charge remaining so they're 1/50th the price, when you activate them with UMD you'll spend a Sorcerer spell slot instead of a charge. Get Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, and any other utility/support spells you want like cure spells, lesser restoration, etc.

Interesting. So basically it's much more of a battlefield control caster with some minimal buffing/healing magic until you get the 9th level False Priest feature and can use wands to cast Cleric spells. It does seem like that might be a limitation earlier in the campaign, though. I'm not totally familiar with the Sorcerer spell list in PF, but at a quick glance they share the Wizard spell list and with the Human favored class bonus of more spells... that seems a little silly. Aside from the wands, how functionally different is this class from just playing a Wizard?

[Eldariel]

Evangelist is great. You don't lose a lot of core competencies, you just lose one domain. Bard song is an excellent party buff, particularly once you can start it as a move action (i.e. level 7). Channel Energy has some crazy buffing potential, particularly with Irori's variant channel, or Milani's Beacon of Hope. I don't see how this build has anything to do with summoning, really.

Bard or Skald are of course good buffers, as is the Medium.

Well, summons are just generally good and when you have more bodies, the value of AOE buffs goes up. That's why Evangelist Cleric summons pretty nicely.

[RallinaTricolor]

Evangelist is great. You don't lose a lot of core competencies, you just lose one domain.

In that case, do you have suggestions on ideas for domains that fit this character so I can start reading through them?


Bard song is an excellent party buff, particularly once you can start it as a move action (i.e. level 7). Channel Energy has some crazy buffing potential, particularly with Irori's variant channel, or Milani's Beacon of Hope.

Where can I find the Irori channel variant? Is that the Self-Perfection one? A cursory google search didn't yield much more than that.


I don't see how this build has anything to do with summoning, really.

I just saw a few threads on the forums/reddit where people were taking Evangelist Cleric and then adding feats like Sacred Summons and summoning things to take advantage of the buffs.


Bard or Skald are of course good buffers, as is the Medium.

Bard is something I've played multiple times in 5e so I was looking to get away from that archetype. Skald definitely looked interesting, but I usually don't go for the Barbarian and so the Raging Song was a bit of a miss for me compared to other options.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Interesting. So basically it's much more of a battlefield control caster with some minimal buffing/healing magic until you get the 9th level False Priest feature and can use wands to cast Cleric spells. It does seem like that might be a limitation earlier in the campaign, though. I'm not totally familiar with the Sorcerer spell list in PF, but at a quick glance they share the Wizard spell list and with the Human favored class bonus of more spells... that seems a little silly. Aside from the wands, how functionally different is this class from just playing a Wizard?

You still get a bonus to UMD wands, staffs, and scrolls of divine spells from 1st level, so you can carry low-level wands and utility scrolls for when they're needed prior to 9th level.

A Sorcerer gets significantly more spells/day compared to a Wizard. You can use more long-duration buffs for your party than a Wizard would be willing to spend spells on. While a Wizard will prepare several save-or-lose spells for each type of saving throw, and may end up with some unused or using one that's less than optimal because he ran out of another, a Sorcerer can just learn a few of each and cast whichever ones he needs until he's out of spell slots. Sorcerers also get UMD and a Cha score to use it, so you can keep wands and scrolls of situational off-class spells, like Glibness.

The skills of a Sorcerer versus a Wizard are also a big difference for noncombat encounters and challenges. Wizards tend to focus more on Int skills like knowledge and spellcraft, whereas a Sorcerer gets bluff, intimidate, and even perform with false priest. While both classes share the same class spell list, they feel very different and often play very differently, even in combat.

[Kurald Galain]

In that case, do you have suggestions on ideas for domains that fit this character so I can start reading through them?
Luck domain is good for buffing. Trickery is decent for self-defense. Plant domain is hilarious with a reach weapon. Excommunication inquisition is effective against casters. And travel domain has good mobility buffs.


Where can I find the Irori channel variant? Is that the Self-Perfection one? A cursory google search didn't yield much more than that.
Yes, that's it.


I just saw a few threads on the forums/reddit where people were taking Evangelist Cleric and then adding feats like Sacred Summons and summoning things to take advantage of the buffs.
Oh, I don't mean that it's a bad combo. But you could just as easily play a summoner cleric (without the buffing) or a buffing cleric (without the summons). If you're spending your top-level spells (or your first standard action in combat) on summons you're not spending them on buffs, and vice versa.


Skald definitely looked interesting, but I usually don't go for the Barbarian and so the Raging Song was a bit of a miss for me compared to other options.
There are archetypes that instead add teamwork feats or weapon special abilities to your allies.

[RallinaTricolor]

You still get a bonus to UMD wands, staffs, and scrolls of divine spells from 1st level, so you can carry low-level wands and utility scrolls for when they're needed prior to 9th level.

A Sorcerer gets significantly more spells/day compared to a Wizard. You can use more long-duration buffs for your party than a Wizard would be willing to spend spells on. While a Wizard will prepare several save-or-lose spells for each type of saving throw, and may end up with some unused or using one that's less than optimal because he ran out of another, a Sorcerer can just learn a few of each and cast whichever ones he needs until he's out of spell slots. Sorcerers also get UMD and a Cha score to use it, so you can keep wands and scrolls of situational off-class spells, like Glibness.

The skills of a Sorcerer versus a Wizard are also a big difference for noncombat encounters and challenges. Wizards tend to focus more on Int skills like knowledge and spellcraft, whereas a Sorcerer gets bluff, intimidate, and even perform with false priest. While both classes share the same class spell list, they feel very different and often play very differently, even in combat.

That makes sense. Coming from 5e, I didn't really think about the difference in spell progression between the two and just assumed it would be the same--clearly I need to read those tables a little better. I'm pretty sure my DM is planning to home rule prepared spell casting to work the way it does in 5e for convenience's sake which then is just a straight buff to Wizards and Clerics. Fun.

As far as Wands go, that's definitely something I just am not used to thinking about yet but it makes sense that I could just use them the way they're intended instead of waiting to 9 for the spell slot version, lol.


Luck domain is good for buffing. Trickery is decent for self-defense. Plant domain is hilarious with a reach weapon. Excommunication inquisition is effective against casters. And travel domain has good mobility buffs.

These need to match the deity's portfolio, though, right?


Oh, I don't mean that it's a bad combo. But you could just as easily play a summoner cleric (without the buffing) or a buffing cleric (without the summons). If you're spending your top-level spells (or your first standard action in combat) on summons you're not spending them on buffs, and vice versa.

Is a buffing cleric (without the summons) going to have enough useful things to contribute in combat once the buffs are set up? I assume with an Evangelist you're going to want like a ranged weapon to sit back with and I'm thinking if using summons + buffing is going to eat up too much of my action economy to be effective compared to the other options.

[Recherché]

If you really want to go down the debuffing route take a look at witch. It's sort of warlock-ish except centered around making enemies incredibly vulnerable. If the big bad doesn't end a fight against my witch asleep, with disadvantage to all rolls and permanently cursed, and then I am not doing my job right.

Witches can cast spells similar to how wizards work and they have a nice spell list full of debuffs, a little healing and buffing, summoning, a few utility spells and very limited ways of doing damage. However a witch's bread and butter are her Hexes. Hexes are cantrip-like special abilities witches get. Most are limited to only being used once against a particular target per day but as long as you have new targets you can't run out of hexes. Hexes can do things like force an enemy to make a will save against falling asleep, give them disadvantage to all rolls for a round, give them a - 2 to all saves or give allies bonuses like advantage or healing. Hexes are almost always single target so you keep your spells for area effects or when you need something super powerful. Overall it's one of my favorite classes to play and a Avery powerful option with a group that can take advantage of all the debuffs you're pumping out.

[RallinaTricolor]

If you really want to go down the debuffing route take a look at witch. It's sort of warlock-ish except centered around making enemies incredibly vulnerable. If the big bad doesn't end a fight against my witch asleep, with disadvantage to all rolls and permanently cursed, and then I am not doing my job right.

Well this basically sounds like my favorite class idea ever. I did some reading on this and it checks basically all of the boxes for me. I think I'll end up either playing an Evangelist Cleric or a Witch depending on how the group shapes up during character creation.

[CharonsHelper]

As an off-the-wall concept - if you don't want to play a spellcaster, you can go with a Drunk Monk/Sensei. They get infinite ki via drinking booze, and they trade out their Flurry of Blows to be able to use their ki abilities on their allies - eventually all of their allies at once.

Oh - plus they get the bard's Inspire Courage.

Can you say, give sage advice (Inspire Courage), drink some hooch (swift action with a feat and 18 CON) and then give all of your allies True Strike... every turn!?

Yes. Yes - you can do that starting at level 10. Though at 6 you can use Ki abilities on a single ally at a time. (Save the group a lot of gold on Amulets of Natural Armor since you can just cast Barkskin on everyone for the cost of some moonshine.)

Just make sure to be a dwarf since they get to attack with WIS, and the CON boost helps access the Swift Drinker feat. (Plus - can you say crazy saves vs spells?)

[Kurald Galain]

As an off-the-wall concept - if you don't want to play a spellcaster, you can go with a Drunk Monk/Sensei. They get infinite ki via drinking booze, and they trade out their Flurry of Blows to be able to use their ki abilities on their allies - eventually all of their allies at once.

Oh, that is hilarious. I have to remember that one :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately my area has very few games at level 10+, but at 6+ it should still work.

[Azoth]

Since you mentioned Vitalist, if other Dreamscarred Press material is on the table, you can always go for a Vitalist4/Medic1/Awakened Blade 1+ build. It will unfortunately require being Human and it will eat all of your feats, but with it you can set up the "support" side in the first round of combat and do whatever you want with your manuevers after that.

The build abuses the Collective class feature and a Medic Expertise that can give all of your allies Fast Healing equal to your Wisdom Modifier for one minute. So every round as a free action you can shuffle # of party members X Wis modier HP around. So at level 6 let's say you have a 20 Wisdom (+5 modifier) and there are 4 people in your party. 5X4=20 HP per round you can pass around as you see fit for no action cost after the first round. It lasts 1min so 10 rounds... 20X10=200HP of healing at level 6 and you can do it all day long.

You can use your Psionic Powers Known to pick up traditional buffs to help your party, and depending on your party composition different martial disciplines can allow you to either further buff allies or debuff and hurt enemies.

Radiant Dawn is a really good discipline to further augment healing abilities and offer up some good control options.

Steel Serpent is good for reducing enemy stats.

Veiled Moon is great for short range teleportation effects.

Cursed Razor is another good debuff discipline.

It is hard to progress this build in a way that makes it so you don't have a fun option available.

[Eldonauran]

I'm partial to the Skald class, if the group is Melee heavy (or would benefit from rage Song).

[Recherché]

Oh, that is hilarious. I have to remember that one :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately my area has very few games at level 10+, but at 6+ it should still work.

If you don't mind gnome, it goes well with bewildering koan (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general/) and making enemies lose turns via asking them drunk questions

[CharonsHelper]

If you don't mind gnome, it goes well with bewildering koan (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general/) and making enemies lose turns via asking them drunk questions

I forgot about that one.

The gnome stats aren't quite as good as Dwarf, and it makes you more MAD (since you wouldn't want to totally dump CHA), but that could be a lot of fun. Though you couldn't do it EVERY turn, as it'd be fighting for swift actions with Fast Drinker.


I'm partial to the Skald class, if the group is Melee heavy (or would benefit from rage Song).

Skalds are awesome - but very group dependent. They don't work if the group has many DEX builds.

[Recherché]

Skalds are awesome - but very group dependent. They don't work if the group has many DEX builds.

Or gishes iirc

[CharonsHelper]

Or gishes iirc

And surprisingly - they don't mesh well with Barbarians - as the rages don't stack.

Plus - it forces you into a STR build yourself. It's mostly the same chassis as bard, and bards make better DEX builds than STR builds. (Fencing Grace etc.)

But if the group has a couple of STR builds who aren't barbarians, it's freakin awesome. (Plus - unlike Bard they can take the Inspire spells - which don't stack with Inspire Courage but do stack with rage.)