looking in to building a Abjurant Champion for a 3.5 game

[Nosta]

My Group has not touched 3.5 in about 3 years and we are switching Back to it for our next game

This game is unique as the only Books allowed Are
PHB 1 & 2
DMG
MM 1
and on top of it each person can choose to Add one book of there choosing to it
(it of course will be a home-brew world)

The other thing is is each mission we will have a different person Gm it

I am Planning on doing complete Mage unless some else Grabs it

Any ways i Don't know what The other 5 books will be

so just from
PHB 1 & 2
DMG
MM 1
Complete Mage I need Advice on building a Solid Abjurant champion

Race?
(Assume 20 or 15 point buy) not sure yet.
Feats (i think where starting level 5)

any Advice would be most welcomed as i kinda forgot most parts of 3.5

[MisterKaws]

Abjurant Champion is something you tack onto another gish class, so you need to get something else, like maybe Jade Phoenix Mage or, in case you're just desperate, Eldritch Knight from the DMG can do the trick.

[Nosta]

Abjurant Champion is something you tack onto another gish class, so you need to get something else, like maybe Jade Phoenix Mage or, in case you're just desperate, Eldritch Knight from the DMG can do the trick.

well I was just wondering what I should use to enter it.
I want to go in To Abjurant champion right from
My Base classes(s)

If if it was an option i do battle / Stalwart Sorcerer

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You want Complete Warrior on the table to go Fighter or Paladin 2/ Wizard or Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion. To finish the build your best choice is Sacred Exorcist in Complete Divine. Eldritch Knight will work if using Wizard, but since it doesn't progress your spells known it doesn't really work with Sorcerer.

A one-book alternative would be to pick the Expanded Psionics Handbook and go Ranger 1/ Psion 6/ (Illithid) Slayer.

[MisterKaws]

well I was just wondering what I should use to enter it.
I want to go in To Abjurant champion right from
My Base classes(s)

If if it was an option i do battle / Stalwart Sorcerer

The entry is usually sorcadin or duskblade wizard, those two are the best sinergies.

[Mr Adventurer]

You want Complete Warrior on the table to go Fighter or Paladin 2/ Wizard or Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion.

Alternatively, go full-BAB 4, caster 2, and be an extra level of Abjurant Champion into the class, since it's the focus is the build.

[Nosta]

@ everyone. Thanks for the advice.

Though it only helps so much as I can only control the book i Add.
and i want to make sure i can at least have Access to Abjuration champion

[Biggus]

If you have time, it would be better to come back when you know what the other four books available are, as your options are fairly limited with just the five you list and there might be a much better combo available. In the meantime, here's a few thoughts using just those five.

Is the 15-20 point buy using the 3.5 system or PF? If it's 3.5, 15 is not really enough to build a decent gish, as obviously they're inherently MAD, and even 20 will be a struggle. You can get Abjurant Champion without taking any warrior-class levels as you only have to be proficient in a single martial weapon, although you have to wait until level 11 due to the BAB requirement. In this case either elf (for the free martial weapon proficiency) or human (for the bonus feat) is probably your best bet. If you're playing past level 15, perhaps finish off with Archmage if you can afford the feat tax.

If you're doing 20 point buy using the PF system, a gish is more doable. If so, MisterKaws has it right, either Paladin/ Sorcerer or Duskblade/ Wizard would work well. For the martial class, Paladin 2 for Divine Grace, Duskblade 1 or 2 (at level 2 they get Combat Casting as it's a pretty poor feat but a requirement for Abjurant Champion). Any more and you're losing an unacceptable number of caster levels (if Complete Divine or Complete Arcane is one of the other books available, take the Practised Spellcaster feat to mitigate this somewhat).

If you want to go full gish, fill out your remaining levels with Eldritch Knight. Duskblade 1/ Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight 2/ AC 5/ EK +7 loses you only two caster levels, meaning you get 9th-level spells, so that's probably the most powerful. With Paladin/ Sorcerer, if you lose a third caster level you start to lag behind other casters pretty catastrophically and never get 9th-level spells unless you're going to epic.

Speaking of which, what level you expect the campaign to continue to makes a difference with your choices: with just the books you list, there's not much for the Paladin/ Sorcerer/ AC past level 13, but if you're not likely to go past that, or not by much, it doesn't really matter.

If you are taking Sorcerer levels, pick up the Rapid Metamagic feat at level 9 so you can cast Quickened spells.

As for spells in Complete Mage, look at True Casting, Heart of Air/ Water/ Earth/ Fire (immune to crits and sneak attacks if you have all four running at once, very useful for the melee gish) and Arcane Fusion/ Greater AF if you're a Sorcerer. From PHB 2, the Celerity series. If BoED is available, Luminous Armor and Greater LA.

[Mr Adventurer]

In my personal experience of playing Gish, I've had the most satisfaction when I've focused on either fighting or spellcasting, with the other as an option or augment to the first. Trying to do both equally is just a recipe for disappointment, I'd say, because you soon reach a point where just optimising a Wizard would do a better job at both.

Most fun I've had was with a Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 4 (focus on being a greatsword fighter with spells to close weaknesses/add utility and fun, and augment my fighting). BAB 18, sorcerer casting level 13, caster level 20 with Practiced Spellcaster. (That game missed the part about EK not advancing spells known apparently?)

[Biggus]

sorcerer casting level 13, caster level 20 with Practiced Spellcaster.

Am I missing something here? Practiced Spellcaster can only increase your caster level by 4.


(That game missed the part about EK not advancing spells known apparently?)

Hun, I never noticed that. So by RAW a Sorcerer can't learn any new spells if they take EK...

[Mr Adventurer]

Am I missing something here? Practiced Spellcaster can only increase your caster level by 4.




Abjurant Champion 5 gives you CL = BAB.

[Eldariel]

First of all, I strongly recommend Ranger as your mundane class with these restrictions. Getting a ton of skills (including generally useful stuff like Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently and company) and the ability to use Ranger Wands (including Cure Light Wounds) is nice and the 2nd level would get you Rapid Shot if you'd like to be not-useless in ranged combat without investing a bunch of feats into stupid nonsense. Armor proficiencies are useless without Spellsword and Ranger just has the most stuff to give (though Barbarian is a solid second in spite of Rage making casting impossible).

Second, Abjurant Champion does suffer a lot from not having access to more sources. One of the best parts about the class is that you can enter without losing caster levels. However, in Core + Complete Mage, the best you can do is Ranger 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5, in which case you're just getting the class features from AC. Spellsword is the trick that enables entering earlier. Ranger 2/Wizard-or-Sorc 6/Abjurant Champion 5 does of course work but that pushes the entry to level 9, which hurts. If the game has any way to access online PRCs, Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) also comboes nicely with Abjurant Champion (as both only require one martial weapon proficiency).

One alternative option would be to instead pick up Player's Guide to Faerûn as your book for the Militia-feat, which would allow you to enter Eldritch Knight without wasting levels on non-casting classes. This would allow for Wizard-or-Sorc 6/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5 (if someone else brought Complete Mage to the table) or just Wizard-or-Sorc 6/Eldritch Knight 10.

[Biggus]

Abjurant Champion 5 gives you CL = BAB.

Ah, I see now the distinction you were drawing between "casting level" and "caster level"...