OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

And apparently the Chiss didn't buy his solipsism, since they kicked him to the cosmic curb and he had to go to work for the Empire.

Apparently it wasn't for that incident specifically, but for a later one.



"At any rate, Doriana explained the entire situation to Thrawn and convinced him that Outbound Flight had to be destroyed. Two weeks later, when the ship arrived in Chiss space, Thrawn was waiting."

"Good-bye, Outbound Flight," Mara murmured.

"Yes," Parck agreed. "But though that was the end of that, it was the beginning of trouble for Thrawn himself. The Chiss military philosophy, you see, did not recognize the morality of preemptive strikes. What Thrawn did was, in their minds, equivalent to murder."

Mara snorted gently. "No offense, Admiral, but it sounds to me like it's your perceptions that need an overhaul. How can the slaughter of a bunch of Jedi Masters minding their own business be anything but murder?"

Parck looked at her gravely. "You'll understand, Mara," he said, his voice almost trembling. "In time, you'll understand."

Mara frowned. The man was either a terrific actor or there was something buried in all of this that had him well and truly terrified. Again, she stretched out with the Force; again, she couldn't seem to touch him at all.

With an obvious effort, Parck pulled himself together. "But again, I'm getting ahead of myself. As I said, Thrawn's action did not sit well with the ruling Chiss families. He was able to talk his way clear and retain his position, but from that point on they watched him very carefully.

"And eventually, as he dealt with some of the Chiss's enemies, he pushed things just a little too far. He was brought up on charges, stripped of all rank, and sent into exile on an uninhabited world at the edge of Imperial space."

[happycrow]

Has surely been said already somewhere in the 34+ previous pages, but

so looking forward to seeing what a Three-Piece Dwarven Combat Band does with their lutes.

"Diggy Diggy Hole" meets Sabaton, when DIE HEROIC plays.

[Peelee]

Apparently it wasn't for that incident specifically, but for a later one.



"At any rate, Doriana explained the entire situation to Thrawn and convinced him that Outbound Flight had to be destroyed. Two weeks later, when the ship arrived in Chiss space, Thrawn was waiting."

"Good-bye, Outbound Flight," Mara murmured.

"Yes," Parck agreed. "But though that was the end of that, it was the beginning of trouble for Thrawn himself. The Chiss military philosophy, you see, did not recognize the morality of preemptive strikes. What Thrawn did was, in their minds, equivalent to murder."

Mara snorted gently. "No offense, Admiral, but it sounds to me like it's your perceptions that need an overhaul. How can the slaughter of a bunch of Jedi Masters minding their own business be anything but murder?"

Parck looked at her gravely. "You'll understand, Mara," he said, his voice almost trembling. "In time, you'll understand."

Mara frowned. The man was either a terrific actor or there was something buried in all of this that had him well and truly terrified. Again, she stretched out with the Force; again, she couldn't seem to touch him at all.

With an obvious effort, Parck pulled himself together. "But again, I'm getting ahead of myself. As I said, Thrawn's action did not sit well with the ruling Chiss families. He was able to talk his way clear and retain his position, but from that point on they watched him very carefully.

"And eventually, as he dealt with some of the Chiss's enemies, he pushed things just a little too far. He was brought up on charges, stripped of all rank, and sent into exile on an uninhabited world at the edge of Imperial space."
Purely extrapolation here, but it sounds like the Chids Ascendancy military works on proving guilt being a requirement for removal, because the Aristocra knew it stank to high heaven and yet.

[Rogar Demonblud]

IMS, there's hints that the higher ups had several agents working under Thrawn and reporting on him to make sure they had proof the next time. Mister Strategic Genius apparently didn't notice.

[zimmerwald1915]

But in that case say they are aristocratic, seems a bit like Zim is exaghgerating to try to discredit the Rebellion since of the two people with aristocratic titles, both are said to be ceremonial/meaningless and the leader's own skill in diplomacy is how they got their position in the Old Republic, and their willingness to fight (and fact that they owned ships) was what got them into the rebellion.
The persistence of aristocratic titles is only one indication of the reactionary nature of the ARR - a far better one, as you point out, are its incorporation into itself of virtually private armies. It's also telling that from the earliest points had its power base in the Senate. The Senate gets conflated with a democratic chamber because Lucas doesn't know anything about anything, but it isn't. It doesn't represent populations, but individual worlds regardless of population, as well as groups like the Trade Federation and Techno Union. It is more like a medieval Estate than anything else.


Sometimes a king decides he is so awesome that he really needs a fancier title and starts calling himself "Emperor", even if he hasn't conquered anything. There are a few examples in the real world. I remember the case of a king whose parents and grandparents had unified several kingdoms through marriage, and who tried to have the Pope grant him an imperial title... In other cases, the monarch just wanted a title as fancy or fancier than his neighbors (I can remember at least two examples of monarchies doing that...).
Do you want help with that whitewash, Tom?


By the way, the Ironborn are a perfect example of a despicable "Resistance" that is way worse than the "Empire..."
Aren't the Greyjoys supporting the Iron Throne at this point? Or is that just in the show?

[hroþila]

Stating the obvious is not whitewashing. It is absurd to rely on an administrative designation to decide who's in the right (and which country's civilians deserve to die, apparently). What if an empire was invaded (for the second time in 40 years, for example) by a kingdom that was trying to conquer it and turn it into a colony? What if, on top of that, the kingdom in question had the worst kind of government and ideology? That sounds implausible, huh?

[zimmerwald1915]

Stating the obvious is not whitewashing. It is absurd to rely on an administrative designation to decide who's in the right (and which country's civilians deserve to die, apparently). What if an empire was invaded (for the second time in 40 years, for example) by a kingdom that was trying to conquer it and turn it into a colony? What if, on top of that, the kingdom in question had the worst kind of government and ideology? That sounds implausible, huh?
You seem to have jumped forward two hundred years and multiple countries' depopulation in the name of dynastic aggrandizement from where Clistenes was.

[ijuinkun]

because Sigdi is awesome, and going to ruin everything in a way no one expect: Clanmother's Veto

That's a good idea. Assuming that all clans have a nominal right to have a representative on the Council, then Hilgya and Sigdi being "head" of their respective clans would mean that they are allowed to cast a vote, and Gontor's careful "dominate 50% plus one" count becomes "50% minus one". Thus, the motion to destroy the world fails without having to actually break anybody free of the vampiric domination first.

[Ruck]

Aren't the Greyjoys supporting the Iron Throne at this point? Or is that just in the show?

I think it's just in the show, but since the books are never getting finished, that might as well be the document of record.

[Mightymosy]

The prequel movies: real.

The EU books: real.

The sequel movies: not real.

That's one of the worst proposals I've ever heard.
Given whom you guys keep talking to (or at I should say) for yet another 20+ pages now (again!) I feel I should take this statement as an insult

The Thrawn trilogy suffers from being way too in love with its villain, to the point of Zahn forgetting in later books that he was actually a villain.

Still better on some points (notably treating droids as people) than the original movies, though on none does it approach the level of the movies you prefer to ignore. (It should go without saying that everything I've ever read for the EU is better than the prequel movies.)
Yes, the Thrawn books have lows.
Everyone their opinion.

What's yours?
For example, which do you prefer, of these two sequel options:
1. Thrawn books
2. TFA & TLJ
?

I have read zero Star Wars novels. I had enough second-hand accounts to kill whatever interest there might have had (which in itself, was rather unlikely).

I'm not a huge expanded universe fan, no matter the universe. I prefer original content in more succinct stories in less detailed universes, than huge multi-authorial messes of infinite plot holes, inconsistencies, stale recycled crap, power creep, and cheap gimmicks.

Namely for many of these reasons I hate the sequels. And given Disney will launch their own streaming platform I have no intent to subscribe to, I'll probably never see ep 9.

I agree with most of what you said.
Still, I enjoyed reading the Thrawn books and the trilogy with the Jedi academy, Kyp Durron and Admiral Daala (don't know the English title).

Would a nice coherent movie sequel have been better?
Absolutely! But in my opinion, that's not what we got either way, so that's that for me....

[AstralFire]

What's yours?
For example, which do you prefer, of these two sequel options:
1. Thrawn books
2. TFA & TLJ
?


TFA and TLJ. The only good character in the Thrawn books is Pellaeon.

I'm not gonna say I didn't enjoy Heir to the Empire, and I appreciate what Zahn did in expanding the WE d6 RPG into the start of something big and beautiful. But it's not particularly good, and Thrawn's schtick is uncompelling -- it might have worked better under a different author. (Maybe Stover? He was always the best at getting the most out of others' characters.)

Talon Karrde is a weaker Lando.

Mara Jade... I liked, but I feel like never developed into anything more than "Luke's beautiful love interest" as far as character depth and personality. Within the Duology itself, she was good at zig-zagging him in the story, but all of the characters except Pellaeon suffer badly from having to prove to the audience that they're somehow better versions of the OT characters rather than just... being better. It wouldn't have been that hard.

I liked the idea behind the Clone Wars as conceived for the story, but C'baoth and Luuke were egh. Ysalamiri I dislike for all the reasons I dislike anti-magic fields -- they highlight the fact that supernatural things are 'added' to base reality and let them just be turned off.

[vwnewt]

So what music would you choose for this part of the strip were it a movie?

Klaus Badelt from the Pirates franchise: "He's a Pirate."

Play it while you're on the throne. It feels like you're doing the Lord's work.

[Shining Wrath]

Dwarven clan honor FTW.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey hey
We're near approaching 6 years since the last gate destruction, yet in comic, six weeks haven't passed yet.Temporal distortion is OK as a vehicle for entertainment. IRL, not so much.

[Fyraltari]

Temporal distortion is OK as a vehicle for entertainment. IRL, not so much.
But vehicles cause temporal distortion! If they’re fast enough.

[zimmerwald1915]

But vehicles cause temporal distortion! If they’re fast enough.
We all cause temporal distortions just by existing. As does the planet, by existing and moving. Oh, and no two of us experience the same universe.

[Peelee]

the trilogy with the Jedi academy (don't know the English title).
The Jedi Academy Trilogy. :smallcool:

Oh, and no two of us experience the same universe.

I'ma need to see a mathematical proof of that.

[Fyraltari]

We all cause temporal distortions just by existing. As does the planet, by existing and moving. Oh, and no two of us experience the same universe.
Fine, fine, ‘noticeable temporal distortion’. Happy?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Fine, fine, ‘noticeable temporal distortion’. Happy?

Noticeable by humans, or by atomic clocks?

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

You need a clock to notice the difference.

[D.One]

You need a clock to notice the difference.

In fact, he probably needs two clocks :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

In fact, he probably needs two clocks :smallbiggrin:
Not with GPS!

[zimmerwald1915]

I'ma need to see a mathematical proof of that.
Wigner's Friend no-longer-thought experiment (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.technologyreview.com/s/613092/a-quantum-experiment-suggests-theres-no-such-thing-as-objective-reality/amp/)

[Fyraltari]

Wigner's Friend no-longer-thought experiment (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.technologyreview.com/s/613092/a-quantum-experiment-suggests-theres-no-such-thing-as-objective-reality/amp/)

All that proves is that there is no objective reality at the quantum level which is a far cry from what you said.

[Mightymosy]

The Jedi Academy Trilogy. :smallcool:

Wow, that makes sense! Thanks!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Most of the Star Wars trilogies have brick simple names. The trilogy about Han Solo is the Han Solo Trilogy. The trilogy about the Black Fleet Crisis is the Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy. Et Cetera.

[Mightymosy]

Yeah......but that still left a couple possible names for the Jedi Academy Trilogy which I wasn't sure whether they were the name:
Daala trilogy
Kyp Durron trilogy
Sunhammer trilogy
come from my mind right now
:-)

[Peelee]

Most of the Star Wars trilogies have brick simple names. The trilogy about Han Solo is the Han Solo Trilogy

One of them, yes. The other trilogy about Han Solo is called the Corellian Trilogy. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

One of them, yes. The other trilogy about Han Solo is called the Corellian Trilogy. :smalltongue:

Nope - the Corellian Trilogy is less about Han and more about Corellian secession and how the New Republic deals with it.

The two extremely Han-centric trilogies are the Han Solo Trilogy and the Han Solo Adventures trilogy. :biggrin:

[Peelee]

Nope - the Corellian Trilogy is less about Han and more about Corellian secession and how the New Republic deals with it.

The two extremely Han-centric trilogies are the Han Solo Trilogy and the Han Solo Adventures trilogy. :biggrin:

The secession is led by his cousin, who is more than a little obsessed with Han, IIRC. Shame you're still right, though.

[Jasdoif]

The secession is led by his cousin, who is more than a little obsessed with Han, IIRC.Yeah, that rackin' Thrackan cousin of his....I actually read the Corellian Trilogy...like twenty years ago.

[Fyraltari]

The secession is led by his cousin, who is more than a little obsessed with Han, IIRC. Shame you're still right, though.

Of course it is. Because the Force forbids anybody has a normal family in this galaxy.

[Peelee]

Of course it is. Because the Force forbids anybody has a normal family in this galaxy.

Han was a prince (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/House_of_Solo)!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of course it is. Because the Force forbids anybody has a normal family in this galaxy.


All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

GW c

[Jasdoif]

Of course it is. Because the Force forbids anybody has a normal family in this galaxy.Han was a prince (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/House_of_Solo)!I'm honestly not sure if Star Wars embraces the royalty/nobility fetish more than other fantasy settings, what with not following most other fantasy settings.

[Fyraltari]

Han was a prince (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/House_of_Solo)!

Oh, for ****'s sake!

[Peelee]

Oh, for ****'s sake!

If there's one thing you can count on in the Star Wars universe, it's being able to say that exact phrase no matter what they do for the name Solo. :smalltongue:

[Resileaf]

I thought Space Balls was a parody. 0_o

[The_Weirdo]

I thought Space Balls was a parody. 0_o

It's a documentary.

Also a ballad:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8SXJZMeApI

[Rogar Demonblud]

If there's one thing you can count on in the Star Wars universe, it's being able to say that exact phrase no matter what they do for the name Solo. :smalltongue:

But you really need a macro of Eddie Izzard saying it to get the right intonation.:smallamused:

[Larre Gannd]

If there's one thing you can count on in the Star Wars universe, it's being able to say that exact phrase no matter what they do for the name Solo. :smalltongue:

What if Han Solo is actually Boba Fett’s cousin, and Darth Plagueis in a mask?

[Peelee]

What if Han Solo is actually Boba Fett’s cousin, and Darth Plagueis in a mask?

Nah, Boba Fett was Jaster Mereel the clone of Jaster Mereel's adopted son. It's not confusing at all!

[Fish]

I thought Boba Fett was Redcloak’s niece.

[zimmerwald1915]

I thought Boba Fett was Redcloak’s niece.
Don't be silly. Redcloak's niece is Rey's mum.

[Clistenes]

Do you want help with that whitewash, Tom?

I doubt we are speaking about the same country. Just in case, the name of the monarch I am speaking about doesn't start with letter V, and he was a nerd, not a warrior or a conqueror.

And by the way, he didn't got the Pope to grant him the title... But he might ha achieved it, had he been richer...

[Clistenes]

Stating the obvious is not whitewashing. It is absurd to rely on an administrative designation to decide who's in the right (and which country's civilians deserve to die, apparently). What if an empire was invaded (for the second time in 40 years, for example) by a kingdom that was trying to conquer it and turn it into a colony? What if, on top of that, the kingdom in question had the worst kind of government and ideology? That sounds implausible, huh?

Good point. Old, stagnant empires have been savaged by younger states many times... I can remenber three cases right now of old, stable, non-expansionist "empires" being invaded by states that didn't call themselves "empire".

[zimmerwald1915]

I doubt we are speaking about the same country. Just in case, the name of the monarch I am speaking about doesn't start with letter V, and he was a nerd, not a warrior or a conqueror.
Of course, V was his ordinal number.

[Clistenes]

Of course, V was his ordinal number.

Nope. You are wrong. His name didn't start with C, either.

[hroþila]

Why don't we just say explicitly what we're referring to? The rules ban politics, not history, and while of course the line between the two is largely imaginary, the rules do draw it implicitly and plenty of history has been discussed here before with no issue.

[vwnewt]

Why don't we just say explicitly what we're referring to?

What fun would that be?

[D.One]

Of course, V was his ordinal number.

Just thinking... Vaarsuvius eventually becomes King/Queen/Whatever title (Wizard Supreme? Ruler? Elvis?) of the Elves, and establishes an enduring dinasty that rules with Intelligence and Wisdow (and fireballs).

Many generations later, a descendant of the original OotS Vaarsuvius (by blood or adoption, it doesn't really matter, because there's official recognition), who bears the same name as the ancestor, assumes as the fifth Vaarsuvius to rule.

This Vaarsuvius will be known as Vaarsuvius the Fifth, or Vaarsuvius V, V V for friends... :smalltongue:

[Skull the Troll]

I need to make a character now named "Elvis of the Elves"

[D.One]

I need to make a character now named "Elvis of the Elves"

Even better. A Bard called Elvis who leads a group of elves:

Elvis and the Elves

[Dion]

Don't be silly. Redcloak's niece is Rey's mum.

Redcloak’s niece is Princess Leia?

[Rogar Demonblud]

You got something very different out of those movies than I did.

[Clistenes]

Why don't we just say explicitly what we're referring to? The rules ban politics, not history, and while of course the line between the two is largely imaginary, the rules do draw it implicitly and plenty of history has been discussed here before with no issue.

Okay, I will give a few historical examples:

Alfonso III of Asturias, king of a relatively small Iberian kingdom was crowned Emperor during the IX century, because he thought the title was cool and he thought he was too awesome to be just a king.

Alfonso VI of Leon, who inherited the kingdoms of Leon, Castile and Galicia and conquered the city of Toledo was crowned Emperor.

Alfonso VII of Leon and Castile was crowned Emperor too.

His descendant, Alfonso X of Castile, the nerdiest of all nerds (guy created a miniature wargame with figurines -mythical beasts included -and dice and a board that allowed six players, the "Great Chess", during the XIII century! He even wrote a Player's Handbook, the Book of Games!) tried to get the Pope to crown him Emperor because his ancestors, the previously mentioned Alfonso III, Alfonso VI and Alfonso VII were emperors, and because his mom was a descendant of a German Emperor...).

On the other hand, the Spanish Colonial Empire was NOT an empire. Spain was a kingdom and always remained a kingdom. Charles I of Spain was both Emperor of the Holy Roman (German) Empire, and a king of Spain, but he gave the title of Emperor to his brother while his son Felipe II inherited the Spanish throne. Spain was a kingdom, and its possessions were considered provinces, not colonies.

Same goes for Portugal. Had territory all around the world, but remained a kingdom.

USA was formed by defeating and driving away or subjugating the Native Americans who owned the land, and it took land from Mexico, Spain (Puerto Rico, Guam...etc.), UK, France (New France was bought, but, did Napoleon ask its native inhabitants if they wanted to be sold to USA?), Germany (American Samoa), Japan (Palau)...etc., and it conquered and assimilated independent states like Hawaii... But they don't call themselves "Empire".

So you have it: "Empire" and "Emperor" are just words. A relatively small feudal country can be an Empire, while a colonial "Empire" can be a kingdom, or even a Republic...

More examples: The Eastern Roman Empire was, during its last centuries of existence, a small country besieged and abused from all sides by more powerful neighbours, but it never stopped to be called "Empire".

The Holy Roman Empire was expansionist at its very beginning, but afterwards it became largely static. It became largely a confederation of princes and kings who voted among themselves an Emperor, whose power was often very limited. Some of its constituent states were expansionist, others were not, but on average, the Holy Roman Empire as a whole wasn't a threat to its neighbors during most of its history.

Pre-communist China is usually considered an Empire, mostly because the Chinese Son of Heaven considered himself above kings and had kings as vassals, but for long periods of its history it was a non-expansionist, stagnant, shrinking state (and yes, it had expansionist periods too, Chinese history is LONG and almost everything has happened there at least once...) attacked and savaged by more warlike states.

Hell, for long periods of time, China's idea of expansionism was to tell foreign dignitaries to pretend that they were vassals of China when visiting the emperor in exchange for limited trade! And often, they did pay those dignitaries in exchange for keeping the facade!.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Okay, I will give a few historical examples:

Alfonso III of Asturias, king of a relatively small Iberian kingdom was crowned Emperor during the IX century, because he thought the title was cool and he thought he was too awesome to be just a king.

Alfonso VI of Leon, who inherited the kingdoms of Leon, Castile and Galicia and conquered the city of Toledo was crowned Emperor.

Alfonso VII of Leon and Castile was crowned Emperor too.

His descendant, Alfonso X of Castile, the nerdiest of all nerds (guy created a miniature wargame with figurines -mythical beasts included -and dice and a board that allowed six players, the "Great Chess", during the XIII century! He even wrote a Player's Handbook, the Book of Games!) tried to get the Pope to crown him Emperor because his ancestors, the previously mentioned Alfonso III, Alfonso VI and Alfonso VII were emperors, and because his mom was a descendant of a German Emperor...).

On the other hand, the Spanish Colonial Empire was NOT an empire. Spain was a kingdom and always remained a kingdom. Charles I of Spain was both Emperor of the Holy Roman (German) Empire, and a king of Spain, but he gave the title of Emperor to his brother while his son Felipe II inherited the Spanish throne. Spain was a kingdom, and its possessions were considered provinces, not colonies.

Same goes for Portugal. Had possessions all around the world, but remained a kingdom.

USA was formed by defeating and driving away or subjugating the Native Americans who owned the land, and it took land from Mexico, Spain (Puerto Rico, Guam...etc.), UK, France (New France was bought, but, did Napoleon ask its native inhabitants if they wanted to be sold to USA?), Germany (American Samoa), Japan (Palau)...etc., and it conquered and assimilated independent states like Hawaii... But they don't call themselves "Empire".

So you have it: "Empire" and "Emperor" are just words. A relatively small feudal country can be an Empire, while a colonial "Empire" can be a kingdom, or even a Republic...

More examples: The Eastern Roman Empire was, during its last centuries of existence, a small country besieged and abused from all sides by more powerful neighbours, but it never stopped to be called "Empire".

The Holy Roman Empire was expansionist at its very beginning, but afterwards it became largely static. It became largely a confederation of princes and kings who voted among themselves an Emperor, whose power was often very limited. Some of its constituent states were expansionist, others were not, but on average, the Holy Roman Empire as a whole wasn't a threat to its neighbors during most of its history.

Pre-communist China is usually considered an Empire, mostly because the Chinese Son of Heaven considered himself above kings and had kings as vassals, but for long periods of its history it was a non-expansionist, stagnant, shrinking state (and yes, it had expansionist periods too, Chinese history is LONG and almost everything has happened there at least once...) attacked and savaged by more warlike states.

Hell, for long periods of time, China's idea of expansionism was to tell foreign dignitaries to pretend that they were vassals of China when visiting the emperor in exchange for limited trade! And often, they did pay those dignitaries in exchange for keeping the facade!.

You have an extensive knowledge of my country history :), are you perhaps a fellow countryman?

[Goblin_Priest]

Why don't we just say explicitly what we're referring to? The rules ban politics, not history, and while of course the line between the two is largely imaginary, the rules do draw it implicitly and plenty of history has been discussed here before with no issue.

I got 2 warnings/infractions for commenting 1750-1920 history, so I'll beg to differ on that one.

I'll just slip in this link and hope that's fine, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Brazil

[Sir_Galliant]

Would the eras before the collapse of the Byzantine empire be safe for discussion, then?

[Lombard]

Okay, I will give a few historical examples:

interesting. i wonder if they had debates about whether to call themselves one or the other.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Would the eras before the collapse of the Byzantine empire be safe for discussion, then?

I've been hit for references to the Peloponnesian War, so survey says no.

[Clistenes]

interesting. i wonder if they had debates about whether to call themselves one or the other.

Most of the time they just stuck to the title they inherited...

When somebody thought they deserved an imperial title it was a matter of what will other monarchs think about your appropriation of a title that puts you above them, and if you care about what they think...

Alfonso III, Alfonso VI and Alfonso VII didn't care much what other kings thought (their kingdoms were far from the core of Europe) but Alfonso X wanted international recognition (and failed).

The kings of Spain and Portugal didn't want to step on the toes of their Austrian relatives, so they didn't try to claim an imperial title.

Napoleon was an outsider, hated by all kings, who would gladly destroy him, so he didn't care what they thought. Also, he intended to beat them all and force them to accept him...

Brazil was geographically isolated from all European kingdoms, so they didn't care what they thought.

Queen Victoria's Great Britain was powerful enough to kick any other country's ass, which they looked down on...

[factotum]

Queen Victoria's Great Britain was powerful enough to kick any other country's ass, which they looked down on...

Worth noting that the only context in which Victoria was referred to as an Empress was with reference to India, and she was offered the title by the Prime Minister, she didn't just take it willy-nilly.

[zimmerwald1915]

and she was offered the title by the Prime Minister, she didn't just take it willy-nilly.
That was a convenient ass-covering move. The House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha needed to maintain its prestige in the face of the House of Romanov and House of Habsburg both being emperors - to say nothing of the, to their view, odious Bonaparte pretenders (and later rulers).

[Riftwolf]

Just to move back to the comic for a bit...
Is having a bunch of 1-5th level npcs a good thing against a Nightcrawler? Because that at-will Unholy Blight looks like it'll send massive chunks of Durkon's family to Valhalla.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just to move back to the comic for a bit...
Heresy!

Is having a bunch of 1-5th level npcs a good thing against a Nightcrawler? Because that at-will Unholy Blight looks like it'll send massive chunks of Durkon's family to Valhalla.
The OotS is tanking, so they should not be targeted (I also hear they might be too far anyway).

But that's the horrific thing for dwarves and the stupid bet: if they do die, there is no downside to it. They will go into Valhalla, with a smile in their faces.

Grey Wolf

[understatement]

Some of them are older than Durkon and might be adventurers -- I'm guessing around 7-9 level.

Also, I hope anyone capable of preparing Searing Light did so.

[Peelee]

Some of them are older than Durkon

I would certainly hope most of them are older than Durkon, who is the equivalent of early-to-mid twenties (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?158552-Fifty-five&p=8836696#post8836696).

[Clistenes]

Heresy!But that's the horrific thing for dwarves and the stupid bet: if they do die, there is no downside to it. They will go into Valhalla, with a smile in their faces.

Actually, I expect most of them to die, Sigdi included, and for Durkon to not resurrect them... Durkon has just experienced Valhalla, while resurrecting them means exposing them to the risk of having their souls harvested by Hela or devoured by the Snarl...

[Fyraltari]

Actually, I expect most of them to die, Sigdi included, and for Durkon to not resurrect them... Durkon has just experienced Valhalla, while resurrecting them means exposing them to the risk of having their souls harvested by Hela or devoured by the Snarl...
First, no he hasn't he didn't even get to Valhalla's doorstep.

Second. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html)

[Peelee]

lSecond. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html)

Devils Advocate: she explicitly said that literal divine intervention changed her mind about getting rezzed.

[understatement]

Maybe they can "wait out" in the cloud/Valhalla area until Durkon or Hilgya Raises them, in let's say...around two weeks*. Assuming they can wrap up this Snarl thing, then the dwarves will all be in the clear from their souls being annihilated.

*a compressed 2 weeks, that is