Optimizing stunning strike

[Spiritchaser]

I have a hypothetical question:

If one were to build around the idea of a character who was VERY good at using stunning strike, how would one do so?

There are lots of things that one can do to increase hit chance, clearly that’s worth thinking about, and In terms of maximizing save DC, obviously wis should be high.

There may also be a very few magical items that could penalize the target, though getting one could not be guaranteed.

Simply making more attempts is a good way to start, and while this gets expensive it’s actually all I’ve really got so far.

MC cleric for bane isn’t crazy, but is more than a little contrived, there might be a way to make this worthwhile.

There’s no obvious way to generate disadvantage on saves for a monk, and a few High level MC options that might give a foe disadvantage on a save likely won’t even apply to stunning strike.

Anyone else have a build that works the heck out of this ability?

Any advice appreciated thanks

[MrStabby]

Hmm. Maybe a class with a good follow up dex/strength save for them to auto-fail on your next turn. Open hand can do this on their own turn anyway, although the effect is less dramatic than some spells. Ranger with ensnaring strike might work as a nice bonus effect.

[MaxWilson]

You could theoretically take six levels of Wild Sorc for Bend Luck. Probably not worth it but it increases your effective DC by about +2.

[Alfgar]

Take Magic Initiate and choose Hex from Warlock? You would only get to use 1x/long rest tho.
Of course you could always MC in a level or two of Warlock as well.

[Spiritchaser]

Take Magic Initiate and choose Hex from Warlock? You would only get to use 1x/long rest tho.
Of course you could always MC in a level or two of Warlock as well.

Hex will work on ability checks, but not saves, and once per day is very limited.

Magic initiate for bane WOULD work on saves, and the CHA save to get it to stick might be reasonable but again only once per day.

Also: this build would need high wis and high Dex. Losing an ASI to MI is not to be taken lightly.

[Alfgar]

Hex will work on ability checks, but not saves, and once per day is very limited.

Magic initiate for bane WOULD work on saves, and the CHA save to get it to stick might be reasonable but again only once per day.
Oops forgot it was ability checks.

[Desteplo]

Magic initiate “shilalegh” and using your stats on wisdom first would increase your DC without disrupting your melee much.
(I usually play w4e monks)

You can grab frostbite too for a small “stun” but that’s more theme than mechanical

[Spiritchaser]

Magic initiate “shilalegh” and using your stats on wisdom first would increase your DC without disrupting your melee much.
(I usually play w4e monks)

You can grab frostbite too for a small “stun” but that’s more theme than mechanical

I was actually thinking of one level of nature cleric here, which gets bane as well, plus an extra spell slot...

I’d still need Dex for AC, but it’s not crazy

It still feels like there must be another way to boost this...

[Wildarm]

2 levels of Divination Wizard would let you force an auto fail a couple times a day. Would give a definite jedi slant to your monk. Shield, Mage Hand, Portent, Absorb Elements all have a definite force master vibe to them and would mix well into normal monk combat. Potentially worth it if you've got others you can depend on to break a creatures legendary resistances.

[Man_Over_Game]

Magic initiate “shilalegh” and using your stats on wisdom first would increase your DC without disrupting your melee much.
(I usually play w4e monks)

You can grab frostbite too for a small “stun” but that’s more theme than mechanical

This is the proper response. Any other build is going to end up causing the Monk to lose out on ASI's, Monk Levels (which means less Ki) for some niche effect. Getting +4 levels into Monk is going to get you 4 more Stunning Strike chances, +1 to hit, +1 to damage and +1 to your DC. It's hard to beat.

Dipping a single level into Druid will give the Druid a lot of options (including Shillelagh, maybe Magic Stone), allowing the Monk to put all of his stats into Wisdom and Constitution. From there, you can go Long Death as a tank who can afford to use Stunning Strike x1-x2 per round and never run out of Ki, or you can be a Four Elements Monk that combines Stunning Strike with some elemental effects to dump Ki all at once.

[Spiritchaser]

Dipping a single level into Druid will give the Druid a lot of options (including Shillelagh, maybe Magic Stone), allowing the Monk to put all of his stats into Wisdom and Constitution. From there, you can go Long Death as a tank who can afford to use Stunning Strike x1-x2 per round and never run out of Ki, or you can be a Four Elements Monk that combines Stunning Strike with some elemental effects to dump Ki all at once.

Why would you take druid over nature cleric?

[Man_Over_Game]

Why would you take druid over nature cleric?

Druids have better combat spells for a Gish playstyle. Clerics have great support spells, but many of their spells require Concentration or multiple actions.

Or, put another way, you could be a Monk + Druid, or you could be Monk/Cleric. A Druid can increase your speed to 45, or combine it with Step of the Wind to jump ludicrous levels of height, or use Absorb Elements to mitigate damage and kill someone with it. You have lots of options that don't interrupt your playstyle.


As a Cleric...you have Bless, a Concentration spell that's about as cliché as it gets.

[Spiritchaser]

As a Cleric...you have Bless, a Concentration spell that's about as cliché as it gets.

You also get Bane, a spell that targets a (frequently) weak save, helps you survive and which directly impacts a foe’s resistance to stunning strike, which is the conceptual pillar I wanted to build around.

[MaxWilson]

You also get Bane, a spell that targets a (frequently) weak save, helps you survive and which directly impacts a foe’s resistance to stunning strike, which is the conceptual pillar I wanted to build around.

Shield of Faith is also pretty reasonable for a monk, though not directly related to Stunning Strike like Bane is.

[RSP]

Taking a level in Cleric gives 2 shots at Bane, in exchange for 1 ki point per Short Rest (not knowing what level we’re talking about missing, and as we’re only concerned about SS, this is all that matters for this)

Bane will equal no attacks in round 1 of combat, and the loss of at least 3 chances to land Stunning Strike. If it fails, or if you lose Concentration, it does nothing.

If the target fails their save, they get -~2.5 on their roll to resist SS. That extra ki can equal one extra SS attempt per SR. However, failing the Bane save doesn’t mean they’ll fail the SS, particularly if they have good Con saves.

Either way, you’ll still be “spamming” SS until it’s successful.

I’d rather attack the target on round 1, have 3 chances to Stun the target (in addition to damage) and have an extra ki point; then have my action used on casting and getting a slightly better chance of landing SS in subsequent rounds.

In the end, using SS is the best way to have SS be successful.

Now if you have Cleric in the group that wants to help you out, that would work fine.

[Spiritchaser]

Bane also reduces target accuracy by a meaningful amount.

I’d agree that in short fights it wouldn’t make sense, but I have to think that in longer fights, It would.

I think we average about 7 or 8 rounds per encounter at the table I play at, though obviously this varies from the occasional four round mushroom stomps to 20+ round set pieces

[GlenSmash!]

Since the most recent errata has incapacitated creatures auto-failing ability checks a good stunning striker can grapple and shove with impunity.

As long as the creature is grapple-able and shove-able that is.

[MaxWilson]

Taking a level in Cleric gives 2 shots at Bane, in exchange for 1 ki point per Short Rest (not knowing what level we’re talking about missing, and as we’re only concerned about SS, this is all that matters for this)

Bane will equal no attacks in round 1 of combat, and the loss of at least 3 chances to land Stunning Strike. If it fails, or if you lose Concentration, it does nothing.

If the target fails their save, they get -~2.5 on their roll to resist SS. That extra ki can equal one extra SS attempt per SR. However, failing the Bane save doesn’t mean they’ll fail the SS, particularly if they have good Con saves.

Either way, you’ll still be “spamming” SS until it’s successful.

I’d rather attack the target on round 1, have 3 chances to Stun the target (in addition to damage) and have an extra ki point; then have my action used on casting and getting a slightly better chance of landing SS in subsequent rounds.

In the end, using SS is the best way to have SS be successful.

Now if you have Cleric in the group that wants to help you out, that would work fine.

It's not necessarily just two shots. I can imagine something like:

Nature Cleric 1, Wild Sorc 6, Monk 6+. Modus operandi: max Wisdom, take Quickened + Heightened metamagics, when in combat cast Quickened Bane + Shillelagh, (or just cast Heightened Bane), then as many Stunning Strikes as you can every round, using Bend Luck whenever the opponent just barely succeeds.

I'm not sure it's actually any better overall than a pure Monk, and you'll definitely miss out on those pure monk abilities like Empty Body, and you run out of ki pretty fast... but if you want to go all-in on Stunning Strike it's probably a better Stunning Striker than a pure monk is at least for 2-3 rounds per short rest.

[sophontteks]

Any multiclassing will reduce your ki, which is a problem since you need that to maximize how many stunning strikes you can do. If you wanted to focus on it maybe look to your teammates. The ability is already optimized right from the start. Its one of the best CC abilities in the game.

[Phoenix042]

Unfortunately, the answer to this question is as boring as it is powerful:

Go Variant human and grab whatever feat you like (you'll get decent mileage out of a few of the options in Magic Initiate), then go Monk 20. Pump wisdom and dex over anything else.

Cool idea: Grab Shillelagh, Guidance, and Entangle.

Now you've got Entangle 1/rest, which is a pretty solid way to take advantage of the stunned condition, and you can safely pump wisdom knowing that you can still rock in melee with Shillelagh. Guidance is just icing.

But really, you want Ki, as much of it as you can get, and more ASIs, etc. I recommend Open hand; it may not be the flashiest way of taking advantage of stunning strike, but when some huge creature auto-fails its strength save and you kick it off a cliff... Well, that's pretty neat, huh?

Good luck!

[Zene]

I love the action economy discussion.

Which points us toward our true answer:

Get another party member to cast Bane.

(If you can’t do that; get a hireling or familiar, a ring of spell storing for them to use, and a 1-level dip in nature Cleric so you can load up the ring with Banes.)

[Zene]

I love the action economy discussion.

Which points us toward our true answer:

Get another party member to cast Bane.

(If you can’t do that; get a hireling or familiar, a ring of spell storing for them to use, and a 1-level dip in nature Cleric so you can load up the ring with Banes.)

Ooh and/or, possibly —dip fighter 2 for action surge? And consider Gloomstalker 3? That’d mean an initiative bonus, and the opportunity for up to 8 stunning strike attempts in the first round. No extra MADness required (though that is a serious detour from Monk levels)

[Hytheter]

I love the action economy discussion.

Which points us toward our true answer:

Get another party member to cast Bane.

That's the best answer I think. I don't see spending an action to cast Bane being much better than just launching a few extra Stunning Fists, especially if you have to spend 1 or more levels from your progression to do it, but it's not like you have to do it all yourself. Have a friend cast Bane and you get the best of both worlds.

[Nidgit]

Shillelagh doesn't work with unarmed strikes, as far as I'm aware, so your Monk would still need to end up investing in Dex anyway to land whatever unarmed strikes they're planning on making. Taking Magic Initiate allows you to prioritize Wis and make your DC better, but is it worth delaying the variety of benefits boosting Dex has?

[RSP]

Shillelagh doesn't work with unarmed strikes, as far as I'm aware, so your Monk would still need to end up investing in Dex anyway to land whatever unarmed strikes they're planning on making. Taking Magic Initiate allows you to prioritize Wis and make your DC better, but is it worth delaying the variety of benefits boosting Dex has?

I believe the use is to use a staff or club with it, which are both Monk weapons and work like unarmed strikes in terms of Monk damage due and SS.

[RSP]

It's not necessarily just two shots. I can imagine something like:

Nature Cleric 1, Wild Sorc 6, Monk 6+. Modus operandi: max Wisdom, take Quickened + Heightened metamagics, when in combat cast Quickened Bane + Shillelagh, (or just cast Heightened Bane), then as many Stunning Strikes as you can every round, using Bend Luck whenever the opponent just barely succeeds.

I'm not sure it's actually any better overall than a pure Monk, and you'll definitely miss out on those pure monk abilities like Empty Body, and you run out of ki pretty fast... but if you want to go all-in on Stunning Strike it's probably a better Stunning Striker than a pure monk is at least for 2-3 rounds per short rest.

The post I made was in response to “go Cleric1 for Bane.” The logic of it holds with any multiclass though: the more you don’t level in Monk, the less SS you can do per short rest; and being able to attempt SS more is going to be the best way to optimize SS (assuming maxed Wisdom).

[Hytheter]

I believe the use is to use a staff or club with it, which are both Monk weapons and work like unarmed strikes in terms of Monk damage due and SS.

Yes, but the bonus action attacks from Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows can only be made with unarmed strikes, which is potentially a full third or more of your attack routine AKA a third+ of your opportunities to use Stunning Strike.

[Spiritchaser]

If I had to sum up the thread to date:

“How do you optimize stunning strike above and beyond base monk capacity?”

“You really don’t”

[MrStabby]

If I had to sum up the thread to date:

“How do you optimize stunning strike above and beyond base monk capacity?”

“You really don’t”

I don't know. I think that the use of spells and abilities to boost it sticking (or dedicating monk resources to that) seems to be a pretty poor return on investment.

I still haven't ruled out the ranger dip though. Ranger is an OK multiclass anyway (at least not too mad) and getting spells like entangle and ensnaring strike seem good for the autofail element. Punch/stun, cast ensnaring strike and punch again seems a good turn. To be fair, it isn't so much optimising for stunning strike as building a viable multiclass that has this as one of its synergies.

Personally I would be interested in taking ranger to 3 (after monk to 5) then maybe grab an ASI again later on - a few more HP, a fighting style, the spells, some out of combat utility and a ranger archetype (probably gloom stalker due to congestion on the bonus action). This lets you be a bit more flexible and switch between a bow and melee quite effectively or just take duelist and pump your damage a bit.

[MaxWilson]

The post I made was in response to “go Cleric1 for Bane.” The logic of it holds with any multiclass though: the more you don’t level in Monk, the less SS you can do per short rest; and being able to attempt SS more is going to be the best way to optimize SS (assuming maxed Wisdom).

That's a familiar tradeoff though: optimizing for nova (like the OP seems to want to do) almost always means sacrificing endurance. You could be somewhat better than a pure monk at landing Stunning Strikes for 2-3 rounds per short rest, but you run out of gas faster than a pure monk. Personally I don't think that's worth doing.

[Scarytincan]

If I recall there is an ioun stone that increases proficiency bonus by 1,which would increase the DC as well. Maybe ask DM to refluff as a tattoo?

[MaxWilson]

If I recall there is an ioun stone that increases proficiency bonus by 1,which would increase the DC as well. Maybe ask DM to refluff as a tattoo?

Changing an ioun stone to a tattoo isn't just a fluff change, it's a power-up. Normally ioun stones are vulnerable to theft or destruction in a way that tattoos aren't.

[Spiritchaser]

I haven’t considered magic items, as these are not in any way guaranteed. I’ll have a look this weekend, but off the top of anyone’s head, are there any relatively normal magic items that could help with this? As I recall, most things that add a bonus to save DC are pretty high end, and in many cases likely only apply to actual spells.

If I recall correctly we did once see an ioun stone in a campaign about... twenty something years ago, though not since.

[Wildarm]

I haven’t considered magic items, as these are not in any way guaranteed. I’ll have a look this weekend, but off the top of anyone’s head, are there any relatively normal magic items that could help with this? As I recall, most things that add a bonus to save DC are pretty high end, and in many cases likely only apply to actual spells

Plead with your DM for magic handwraps that have the same effect as a Rod of Pact Keeper:

+1 Handwraps of the Master
Requires Attunement by a Monk
While wearing these gloves, you gain a bonus to unarmed attack rolls and the saving throw DCs of your monk abilities spells.
In addition, you can regain 1 ki point as an action while holding the rod. You can’t use this property again until you finish a long rest.

Higher rarity versions increase the bonuses and ki restored.