Bleed verse Fast Healing and Regeneration (3.x/PF1)

[Aotrs Commander]

So, we had an interesting niche case come up today. (Prompting my third thread today on the roleplaying boards...!)

We are playing a 3.5/PF1 hybrid (mostly 3.5 but with elements of PF). Our Rogue has the Bleed Rogue trick, and Bleed generally has been implemented. The PCs were fighting a troll. So the question becomes how Bleed should interact with Regeneration and Fast Healing.

We are using 3.5 Regeneration, not PF Regen, which took away the obvious answer of just looking it up.

Now, the wording for bleed says it is stopped by the application of a DC 15 Heal check or by any spell that cures hit point damage. (3.Aotrs changed that wording to "any magical healing;" the one time it has come up previously was i being inflcited on a PC by a spell and I allowed the Dragon Shaman's healing aura (which grants Fast Healing, a point I'd not considered until writing this post) able to fix, given the Auras are an Su.

I am leaning towards that if a Heal check can fix it, and any magic healing can fix it, than Fast Healing and Regeneration will heal it (after the first time it starts it's round and take damage; I'll will have to clarify, I think, that ongoing healing (Fast Healing/Regen/ any Vigor spells etc) should be applied at the start of a character's turn, but after ongoing damage (bleed plus any other forms of ongoing damage I swiped the idea from 4E thereof).

Does that sound reasonable?

[zlefin]

that sounds reasonable to me. I'd have likely ruled similarly.

[MrSandman]

Isn't regeneration an Ex ability? If so, I wouldn't consider it magic.

[Eldariel]

It feels clear to me that bleeding is basically open wounds and regeneration is all about wounds not staying open so as long as the damage is subject to regeneration (in this case, not fire or acid), the bleeding wounds will mend themselves perhaps after one round of bleeding or one round per one stack of bleeding. This way bleeding does something and the more it is bleeding the longer it takes to heal up (as you'd expect) but regeneration will eventually take care of it.

[Aotrs Commander]

Isn't regeneration an Ex ability? If so, I wouldn't consider it magic.

Yes, but a DC 15 Heal check isn't magic, either, which is why I even considered it.

(And while you could, if you wanted, debate whether the Dragon Shaman's Su aura that Grants Fast Healing (which is technically (Ex)) is magical healing, I already kinda made thet ruling that is was when I let the DS's aura work on the bleeding rogue. (Yes, the irony the the rogue is the only character to be have been AFFECTED by bleeding in addition to inflicting it is not lost on me..!))

Now, granted, I'm not familiar enough with PF as a whole (because I mostly nick bits out of it and paste tghem back onto 3.5) to know if there just ARE no spells or abilities than grant Fast Healing auras or whatnot, or whether it was intended by Paizo that a PF Paladin's Lay on Hands (do PF Paladins have Lay on Hands...?) couldn't stop the bleeding as to why they worded it as "cure from spells" only and not just "magical healing." (I presume the only reason you'd specific even "magical" healing would be because of natural healing. Though one feels if you survived bleeding even 1 hit/round long enough to sleep eight hours, given that you'd have to have 4800 hit points, it would be fair to say you'd expect to be allowed a pass...!) Are there ways in PF to cure hit points that are not from spells/magical healing other than, like rests...?



Edit: Because I'm thinking a bit more clearly this morning, I also did a google search for PF and Bleed and fast healing (and had half a thought to see if James Jacob still had a ask me anything thread which I vaguely recall he did and asking him what the intent was)... First thread I checked, he'd posted, saying he'd say both should stop bleed. (Amd further searches indicated him saying the intent was "any healing," but it was just not worded well.)

Well, can't say fairer than that can I?



(My second thought was you could do it more complicated and say Fast Healing/Regen would reduce the amount of bleed per round by their amount (in addition to healing damage), until they took it to zero. (Thus, the DS's aura FS 1 would have reduced the 4/rnd bleeding by 1 (as well as healing 1 hit point) and the rogue would have only been bleedinh 3/rnd next round, but that is probably a needless complication, especially if I specific that ongoing damage always goes at the start of the turn before any ongoing healing.)