what is the closest class/ archetype combo to the 3.5 class Beguiler

[death390]

i have been looking for a class and/ or archetype to play that is similar to the Beguiler class in 3.5. the Beguiler is a spontaneous full caster using INT, other features are decent skill points (6+int), light armor casting, and some minor rouge like abilities (trapfinding, DC improving/ spell resistance negating ability similar to Sneak attack). while in 3.5 its list is mostly fixed it did get advanced learning so it could branch outside its fixed list from the wiz/soc list for illusion/ enchantment.

i enjoy playing sneaky full casters in general the problem is that most sneaky casters are 1/2 casting or worse which makes them less viable in the later game. i have noticed that while most martial types have a divine or/and arcane complement the rouge types always get shafted when it comes to casting. the closest i have found for this is the nightblade class but it is half casting, CHA based, and unless you lose out on the majority of the abilities you don't get trapfinding.

[Kurald Galain]

Sage bloodline sorcerer is an int-based spontaneous full caster, as is the Psychic. Both have good skill points due to being int-primary (and get one extra from favored class). Psychic doesn't take any spell failure in armor; sorcerer can take the Arcane Armor Training feat. You can get trapfinding from the Trap Finder trait.

There is also a rogue archetype that gets 2/3rds casting, the Eldritch Scoundrel; or conversely, an alchemist archetype that gets sneak attack, the Vivisectionist. HTH!

[Serafina]

Puppetmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/puppetmaster-magus/) Magus is a 2/3rd caster with a focus on casting Illusion and Enchantment spells during combat, but still capable of casting the normal Magus spell list just as well and grabbing some Wizard spells too. They're perfectly capable of casting in light armor, are Int-based, and while they don't get trapfinding that can be solved with a single-level dip. It's a really interesting class, go check it out.

[Gnaeus]

Mesmerist is a 2/3 psychic casting class with light armor & 6 skill points and a focus on illusion and enchantment.

[Gallowglass]

I think the closest you are going to get to a 9/9 int based full caster with thief skillz piled on top is to go with arcanist with an archtype that's flavored, and use your arcana to pick up rogue talents. Then fill your spellbook with beguiler style spells.

But generally, pathfinder differs from 3.5 in that it actually reduces your spellcasting ability with you add in other skillz. so most beguiler style "wizard with other skillz" end up 2/3 casting to balance the new skillz.

Note, I didn't say it balanced well. But certainly better than 3.5. I mean, there's a reason the beguiler is the base of so many optimization exercises.

[Particle_Man]

Not for skills, but you can get some rogue stuff via variant multiclass rules.

[Manyasone]

Eliciter pops into mind, pun intended, it is a mental magic specialist. The fey adept is an illusion specialist. Both are spheres of power classes

[Ramza00]

If you are trying to make a spontaneous spellcaster well an arcanist or exploiter wizard can take the arcanist exploit class figure and do quick study and then 1 round later you have a different spell prepared. Thus you can replicate the large beguiler list with less spells known per day for arcanist gives you enough spells per day for combat and with long term buffing and non combat spells it is not critical usually to have the right spell instantly where 1 round later having it will often satisfy.

Now you are 2+ skill points instead of 6+ skill points but multiclass / prestige can remedy that somewhat. Especially if your dm allows 3.5 prestige classes to be ported in.

[death390]

the exploit wizard one is a definite no, the first major problem is that the exploits are CHA based which increases MAD. the 2/3 casters are also no goes due to the fact that Nightblade is just a better version of them. arcanist is also weird, the majority of the exploits that use a modifier are CHA based, though the covert mage archetype and the armored mage exploit are close. also didn't see how to get rouge talents instead of arcanist exploits. psychic is kinda interesting will have to look at that one more.

i get the idea that no one class should be great at two or more things and should at most be good at 2. but it is difficult when i see so many Martial/ Caster types of classes/ archetypes but next to nothing for Caster/ rouge. i mean with nightblade the 2/3 casting really hurts because you are just not competitive when it comes to DCs so 80% of the illusions you put out are just going to fail miserably at medium/ high levels. with the exception of buffs a lot of the spells that the nightblade has access to are will negate. the gish type classes don't have to worry about save DCs generally because they use buffs or Attack rolls with their spells which scale with BaB. they do have some DC effects usually as riders of their attack spells, but when you have 2/3 casting you generally don't go higher than 16-18 spellcasting because you don't get as much benefit from a higher casting stat for spells per day and your Str/Dex is more important to hit/damage.

a caster/ rouge HAS to be a full caster if they are using illusion or enchantment because they live on the save DCs at that point. what kind of benefit is +1 or +2 to save DC when you are down 3 from spell level compared to the full casters and probably are down 2-3 from casting stat because you get reduced benefits from 2/3 casting?

[Jack_Simth]

You can buy skills, as many as you like, via the Scarlet and Blue Sphere Ioun Stone (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-blue-sphere-ioun-stone/). The enhancement bonus to Intelligence doesn't stack, but nothing stops the associated skills from effectively stacking if each one has a different skill (and if you take the skill option of favored class bonuses, and craft your own Headband of Vast Intelligence (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-vast-intelligence/), you can get by with none of them, as a +6 Headband comes with three skills, unlike in 3.5). Look up the implantation rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/#TOC-Implanted-Ioun-Stones) as well, so they don't get sundered. Craft four, and you have negated the difference between 2+int and 6+int. Then you just need a suitable casting chassis (Enchantment specialist Wizard, perhaps) and the Trap Finder Campaign Trait (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder/), and maybe a way to get some skills in class (but the difference is much less in Pathfinder than in 3.5).

[Alexvrahr]

In PF you can enter the arcane trickster prestige class with a one-level dip in rogue (or other class with sneak attack at first level) and one feat, accomplished sneak attacker. That prestige class also got some boosts over D&D. Use it with wizard or something and you have a reasonable sneaky spellcaster; more spellcaster than sneaky, true.

Another prestige class which can push the sneaky spellcaster vibe is veiled illusionist. Build it off a 9-level divine spellcaster and you can use armor. It comes with bonus sorc/wiz illusion spells and sneaky class features.

[Kurald Galain]

the exploit wizard one is a definite no, the first major problem is that the exploits are CHA based which increases MAD.
Most of the good exploits don't care about cha.


it is difficult when i see so many Martial/ Caster types of classes/ archetypes but next to nothing for Caster/ rouge.
You'd also be hard-pressed to find a martial caster with 9-level casting.


when it comes to DCs so 80% of the illusions you put out are just going to fail miserably at medium/ high levels.
Maaaaybe you should start by specifying what level you're talking about. And "80% are going to fail miserably" is demonstrably incorrect at any level.

[arkangel111]

I used Arcanist/Rogue into Arcane trickster. Grab the traits Magical knack if you don't want to lose a caster level, or magical lineage + and wayang spell hunter for some metamagic abuse. You'll have 2 exploits at most if you go into AT immediately, I suggest potent magic for +2 to DC's or CL's. The other can really be to taste but some nicer ones that fit the sneaky caster are, shadow veil (Blur), armored mask (mage armor+shield of faith), and aspect of innocence. there are plenty of other's that could benefit you based on your playstyle but those are nice and rogue-like without relying on Cha. Stats should be: Int>Dex>Cha>Con=Wis>Str which is pretty close to what a beguiler wanted anyways, what good are all of those skills without some stats to use them. Remember in pathfinder there is no cross class skills so you can easily max 6 skills with an 18 Int. 7 with human and 8 if you use your favored class, 9 if you have a DM that lets you grab the trait Finding Haleen. Once you hit AT you can grab 2 more.

For feats you really only NEED one, and that's been mentioned above, Accomplished Sneak Attacker. Which you can grab at 3 or 5 with no real loss in power.

overall compare to a beguiler...

Beguiler--------------------------------------------------Arc/Rog/AT
Armored mage------------------------------------------Armored Mask
Trapfinding----------------------------------------------Trapfinding+sneak attack
Cloaked casting (+2DC@lvl 14)-----------------------Arcane resevoir (+2DC @ lvl 1)
Still spell/silent spell-----------------------------------Tricky spells
Advanced learning-------------------------------------Innate to Arcanist


Admittedly some things are lost, like the 20th level cloaked casting ability, and feinting as a move action. But that can be grabbed with combat expertise and improved feint. You'll also lose some spells per day over a beguiler, but don't forget you have arcanist reservoir and pearls of power level 1 is cheap. However look at what is also gained in the build. You'll have 3 arcanist exploits to spend how you wish should you finish your build straight Arcanist, which at a minimum can net you 3 extra metamagic feats. A wide open spell-list should you happen to want to do something other than be a beguiler. +7D6 sneak attack to all of your ranged damaging spells, Ranged legerdemain, and 10 free rounds of greater invisibility at no cost.

[Gnaeus]

a caster/ rouge HAS to be a full caster if they are using illusion or enchantment because they live on the save DCs at that point. what kind of benefit is +1 or +2 to save DC when you are down 3 from spell level compared to the full casters and probably are down 2-3 from casting stat because you get reduced benefits from 2/3 casting?

That’s why the Mesmerist has a hypnotic stare class feature which reduces the Will saves of targets and allows him to hit mindless things with mind affecting.

[Florian]

a caster/ rouge HAS to be a full caster if they are using illusion or enchantment because they live on the save DCs at that point. what kind of benefit is +1 or +2 to save DC when you are down 3 from spell level compared to the full casters and probably are down 2-3 from casting stat because you get reduced benefits from 2/3 casting?

PF classes are usually less dependent on that. Hybrid classes, as in 6/9 or 3/4 BAB usually include class features that even out the difference, sometimes at a cost.

You can consider the Mesmerist the direct and functional equivalent of the Beguiler. Their at will debuff cancels out the difference, no biggie there, even with a 6/9 list.

[Gallowglass]

My only problem with the Mesmerist is that its "spell" list is terrible. Granted its been a hot minute since I looked at it. But I remember being thoroughly underwhelmed. But I only made an NPC adversary and never actually played it as a character.

Can someone pro-mesmerist maybe provide "here are the three or four spells of each level that make it worth it" because maybe I just don't see what's there.

[Alexvrahr]

"here are the three or four spells of each level that make it worth it"
1: Color spray (how to win low-level fights in one easy spell), ill omen (for when you want to set up a big spell), silent image (providing your GM doesn't hate illusions), vanish (L1 invisibility).
2: Glitterdust (the best value debuff around even with PFs nerf to it), silence (mesmerists don't need to speak to cast spells; cast on yourself to avoid saves), stricken heart (to load into a spite spell to prevent a full attack on you), mirror image (defence), placebo effect (ignore many conditions).
3: Spite (autocast a spell on an attacker), glibness (lie to people reliably), vampiric touch (alternate loadout for spite), node of blasting (save up and have a pocketful of bombs), confusion (selective area attack spell).
4: Dimension door (tactical teleport), greater invisibility (tactical safety), dominate person (one example of many useful mind-affecting spells of this level).
5: Grand destiny (buff any roll), shadow endurance (don't die, and get an expendable minion when you seem to die), shadow walk (strategic teleport).
6: Irresistible dance (no-save attack), impenetrable veil (serious stealth), true seeing (beats most illusions and similar).

More than 4 at a couple of levels but I couldn't be bothered narrowing it down.

[Ellrin]

Didn’t someone make a pretty intensive conversion of the Beguiler for PF? I remember there were archetypes and even all sorts of class feature options to make it more like a PF class. I never read it thoroughly enough to figure out how it stacked up in the class balance, but I was impressed by how much work the author put into it.

Found it. Not sure if this is the latest version, but it looks like he’s been updating it with more content over time, which is kinda nuts.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6bKY5cuGjh9VFA1OF8xVmtqWjA/edit
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/7tb0ce/ertws_beguiler_conversion_4th_anniversary_update/

[noob]

Also technically you can use 3.5 content.
So the closest class to beguiler is beguiler.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Aside from just porting Beguiler or using the 3pp Fey Adept, Mesmerist is the best substitute. It's even got a feinting-based archetype!

[GrayDeath]

Thirding just using the Beguiler.

PF is intentionally ack-port compatible, and the Beguiler, while powerful, does not outpower Clerics, Wizards or Sorcerers (just be sure to port the Spells he gets, as anything there was changed that might matter might make this a worse solutiojn ^^).

If that is not an option, the Wizard/ROgue/Arcane Trickster with choosing fitting Spells seems closest in overall mechanics and Power, while the mesmerist gets most of the Flavour.