Animal Companion Weapon Proficiencies

[AvatarVecna]

Is there a way for an animal companion to start at 1st lvl with proficiency in either 1) all martial weapons, or 2) at least one exotic weapon? Specifically a horse animal companion, if possible.

[Zsaber0]

Maybe you can talk your GM into allowing Horseshoes of Training(exotic weapon proficiency)?

Or, the prerequisites for the feat are just +1 bab so an animal companion could just straight take the feat at level 1. If you increase its int to 3 that is.

[Geddy2112]

Animals specifically cannot get martial weapon proficiency or EWP, as it is not in the listed feats they can select.

The only way to do this is to boost their intelligence to 3 at level 4. This allows them to select any feat they are physically capable of using. A horse would not be able to use weapons that require hands, but could probably use a helmet spike, or some kind of leg mounted weapon.

There are some specific weapons like tusk blades, thorny breastplate, or armor spikes on barding that can be used by animals.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not looking for an explanation of "how do animals take feats" that can be gleaned from a quick glabce over the animal companion rules. I am looking for a way for such a beast to start with those proficiencies. Is there a feat my PC can take to make them war-trained, or some template the animal can have that would make them smarter/better trained?

[Zsaber0]

You can take a look at the animal companion archetypes, but I think you may be out of luck in this regard.

[Geddy2112]

If you are human or halfling you can have the eye for talent/caretaker traits respectively. These boost any ability score of your companion by 2, allowing for 4 INT and thus qualifying for any feat. This allows EWP off the bat

[Diarmuid]

I would say it allows for "taking MWP or EWP" but it doesnt let them have it. There's nothing anywhere that lets your AC start with different feats. When it gains HD, it would be able to take new feats, but starting with an AC with feats beyond those in the stat block for an animal of its type is going to be difficult.

[upho]

The only way to do this at 1st level is to be a human with the Eye for Talent ART or a halfling with the Caretaker ART. Both can grant your AC a +2 bonus to Int at 1st, allowing them to grab EWP (and both are poor choices unless perhaps if you're only playing at 1st level and really want to prioritize your AC). If your game allows Akashic Mysteries, you can also sorta kinda do this by having your AC take the Buraq AC archetype, which may allow them to get a weapon-like veil (provided they have the necessary appendage(s) to properly use said veil of course).

[Diarmuid]

How does having a higher INT at char creation let you get an AC with anything other than the stats in the base statblock with a slightly higher INT?

That higher INT doesnt result in any bonus feats that can subsequently be spent? Are you just assuming that you can tailor make your AC with whatever feats/skills you want?

[AvatarVecna]

How does having a higher INT at char creation let you get an AC with anything other than the stats in the base statblock with a slightly higher INT?

That higher INT doesnt result in any bonus feats that can subsequently be spent? Are you just assuming that you can tailor make your AC with whatever feats/skills you want?

The feat section in the Animal Companion rules (ttps://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions)...


This is the total number of feats possessed by an animal companion. Animal companions should select their feats from those listed under Animal Feats. Animal companions can select other feats, although they are unable to utilize some feats (such as Martial Weapon Proficiency). Note that animal companions cannot select a feat with a requirement of base attack bonus +1 until they gain their second feat at 3 Hit Dice.

Animal companions can select from the following feats:

Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus.

Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.

...implies that your Animal Companion starts with one feat of your choice, but also says that unless your animal companion starts off with Int 3+, it's limited to the provided list. Which doesn't help me, because half this thread hasn't read the pre-reqs for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and doesn't realize it requires BAB +1, which an animal doesn't have when it selects its 1 HD feat.

I'll start lookin' through archetypes.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AvatarVecna
I'm not looking for an explanation of "how do animals take feats" that can be gleaned from a quick glabce over the animal companion rules.

...Which doesn't help me, because half this thread hasn't read the pre-reqs for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and doesn't realize it….

People are trying to help you, but the tone of your responses isn’t the slightest bit appreciative. You seem to be taking it out on people because they’re not giving you exactly what you want.

[upho]

I'll start lookin' through archetypes.Spare yourself the work; there are none which grant EWP or additional BAB at 1st.

[upho]

Which doesn't help me, because half this thread hasn't read the pre-reqs for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and doesn't realize it requires BAB +1, which an animal doesn't have when it selects its 1 HD feat.No, "half the thread" knows that ACs start with +1 BAB, at 1st. The rules text about not being able to take feats requiring +1 BAB until 3rd you quoted is most likely just a left-over from 3.5/previous rules that simply shouldn't be there.

[AvatarVecna]

People are trying to help you, but the tone of your responses isn’t the slightest bit appreciative. You seem to be taking it out on people because they’re not giving you exactly what you want.

Advice that starts out with "here's how the basic animal companion rules work" is simultaneously not particularly helpful and comes across as condescending, which rankles me a bit, and it doesn't help that the advice given is also mostly based on an incorrect assumption. In the defense of everybody in this thread, I was also surprised to learn it had that pre-req, because it having that pre-req is kinda stupid, so that's not really their fault as much as frustrating. The Akashic suggestion seems like the kinda esoteric thing I was hoping for when I made this thread, the kind of off-the-wall thing I didn't consider when researching this myself, so maybe that ends up being something. :smallsmile:


No, "half the thread" knows that ACs start with +1 BAB, at 1st. The rules text about not being able to take feats requiring +1 BAB until 3rd you quoted is most likely just a left-over from 3.5/previous rules that simply shouldn't be there.

It has BAB +1 at your first effective druid level, but that's because at your first effective druid level it has 2 Hit Dice, and that's just how HD work. I guess I could try to convince my DM that the animal companion table overrides how HD work (and so despite how most animals with 2 HD gain a feat at 1 HD and +1 BAB at 2 HD, an animal companion gains "both" at 2 HD?), but that's...probably a difficult sell. I'll see if it works, I suppose?

[upho]

Advice that starts out with "here's how the basic animal companion rules work" is simultaneously not particularly helpful and comes across as condescending, which rankles me a bit, and it doesn't help that the advice given is also mostly based on an incorrect assumption.FWIW, I completely understand this.


The Akashic suggestion seems like the kinda esoteric thing I was hoping for when I made this thread, the kind of off-the-wall thing I didn't consider when researching this myself, so maybe that ends up being something. :smallsmile:While somewhat depending on the specific animal in question (and your GM), unfortunately there are typically very few "weapon-like" veils to choose from. Most ACs can at best only use the Hand Cannons veil, which isn't actually a weapon, only treated as a ranged one when it comes to feats. But it's hilarious and actually not bad at all if you're a ranged combatant looking to take advantage of the mounted action economy gains by riding, since that otherwise typically reduces your AC to a glorified taxi in combat. But regardless of whether your AC would be able to use any of the weapon-like veils, for a large majority of builds the archetype is by far the best and IMO most interesting and well written of all found in Paizo and DSP material. The sheer amount of cool, effective and flavorful combos it allows for is simply astounding.


It has BAB +1 at your first effective druid level, but that's because at your first effective druid level it has 2 Hit Dice, and that's just how HD work.Huh? AFAIK, the first time you can choose a feat for your AC is at EDL 1, at which point your AC has 2 HD and +1 BAB. Similarly, if there was a feat requiring say "2 HD/levels", the AC would be able to grab that as its first feat. Meaning that technically speaking, an AC doesn't actually ever have only 1 HD. What am I missing here?

[AvatarVecna]

FWIW, I completely understand this.

While somewhat depending on the specific animal in question (and your GM), unfortunately there are typically very few "weapon-like" veils to choose from. Most ACs can at best only use the Hand Cannons veil, which isn't actually a weapon, only treated as a ranged one when it comes to feats. But it's hilarious and actually not bad at all if you're a ranged combatant looking to take advantage of the mounted action economy gains by riding, since that otherwise typically reduces your AC to a glorified taxi in combat. But regardless of whether your AC would be able to use any of the weapon-like veils, for a large majority of builds the archetype is by far the best and IMO most interesting and well written of all found in Paizo and DSP material. The sheer amount of cool, effective and flavorful combos it allows for is simply astounding.

Huh? AFAIK, the first time you can choose a feat for your AC is at EDL 1, at which point your AC has 2 HD and +1 BAB. Similarly, if there was a feat requiring say "2 HD/levels", the AC would be able to grab that as its first feat. Meaning that technically speaking, an AC doesn't actually ever have only 1 HD. What am I missing here?

I can see a RAW argument for that working, sort of ("it doesn't say you gained the feat at HD 1, so one could assume the animal was HD 2 when the feat was taken, and had the point of BAB, and thus can take feats requiring BAB +1"), but I don't really see it flying with DMs. The number of feats indicated on the table is the number of feats they would have from HD, and there's no indication that they're coming from anywhere else, so they must be HD feats. Could a DM take the same reading you're using here? Sure. But more than likely any argument of "technically, the animal was never just 1 HD so its 2 HD stats are used for determining prereqs by RAW" is at best going to be dismissed as a joke, and is unlikely to get me any good will with them. In any case, I'll see what they say, may as well try, but I don't expect them to agree with that interpretation.

In the meantime, I don't suppose you know of a way to make an animal companion an outsider? As far as I can tell the closest thing is some Aasimar feat that makes it a Celestial creature/Magical Beast, but maybe there's something else out there?

[upho]

I can see a RAW argument for that working, sort of ("it doesn't say you gained the feat at HD 1, so one could assume the animal was HD 2 when the feat was taken, and had the point of BAB, and thus can take feats requiring BAB +1"), but I don't really see it flying with DMs. The number of feats indicated on the table is the number of feats they would have from HD, and there's no indication that they're coming from anywhere else, so they must be HD feats.Ah, as I suspected. Thanks. (I think there are highly valid arguments also against this assumption, but let's just leave this for your GM to decide.)


Could a DM take the same reading you're using here? Sure. But more than likely any argument of "technically, the animal was never just 1 HD so its 2 HD stats are used for determining prereqs by RAW" is at best going to be dismissed as a joke, and is unlikely to get me any good will with them. In any case, I'll see what they say, may as well try, but I don't expect them to agree with that interpretation.Well, I probably GM more than 95% of the time I spend playing PF, and assuming I made the same interpretation as you, I can't really see a situation in which I wouldn't let this one slide if any of my current players asked me. That said, I would certainly turn down a player who doesn't know how to balance to the table and tries to pull off some kind of wildly imbalanced "MOAH POWAH"-stunt.


In the meantime, I don't suppose you know of a way to make an animal companion an outsider? As far as I can tell the closest thing is some Aasimar feat that makes it a Celestial creature/Magical Beast, but maybe there's something else out there?If your game allows all DSP content, there's nothing RAW stopping an Int 3+ AC from grabbing the Additional Traits feat for the Mixed Blood (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/3rd-party-traits/dreamscarred-press/) (outsider [X]) trait. I'm pretty sure there's nothing else Paizo or DSP that makes your AC an outsider specifically.

As a side note, an aasimar with the Scion of Humanity ART can do some seriously weird s**t by taking both Celestial Companion and Undead Companion (via the Adopted feat). Add Evolved Companion for additional weirdness and... Well, Celestial Stinging Devil Monkey Zombie companion, anyone?

Most importantly, you may eventually get to wear one of these...

https://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/c_scale,h_440/v1556667980/Heavens_Devils_vest_and_backpatch_gyatcf.png
(Note: "MC" = "Monkey Club")

:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

May I ask what you're trying to do? Even you find a way to get this proficiency onto a horse, I'm not sure how it would use it.

(There might be another way to get to what you want - or close-ish - outside of the straightforward feat approach.)

[AvatarVecna]

May I ask what you're trying to do? Even you find a way to get this proficiency onto a horse, I'm not sure how it would use it.

(There might be another way to get to what you want - or close-ish - outside of the straightforward feat approach.)

I need all martial proficiency or one exotic proficiency to trade for a martial tradition in Spheres Of Might. I mean, I'll still have my AC playing around with combat talents either way, they have an archetype for it or I could just trade HD feats for a progression...but the extra four talents would make for a nice headstart on that. (Incidentally, this is also why I think it's gonna be rough convincing the DM the feat ACs start with isn't an HD feat, because that takes one progression option off the table).

EDIT: If you know an alternate way for an animal companion to get a martial tradition, that'd also be fantastic. I'm just getting into spheres stuff and exploring possibilities, so I don't quite know what all the options are yet.

[upho]

I need all martial proficiency or one exotic proficiency to trade for a martial tradition in Spheres Of Might. I mean, I'll still have my AC playing around with combat talents either way, they have an archetype for it or I could just trade HD feats for a progression...but the extra four talents would make for a nice headstart on that. (Incidentally, this is also why I think it's gonna be rough convincing the DM the feat ACs start with isn't an HD feat, because that takes one progression option off the table).Yeah, I have no problems seeing how this could belong in the "not balanced for the table"-category. But if you also think it does, I have to ask why you're looking for a RAW-legal way of pulling it off? I mean, it's not like there aren't a ton of RAW-legal ways to break most games into a thousand little pieces, the RAW-legality is IMO a very poor excuse if coming from an experienced player.

And perhaps just as importantly, why does it have to be at EDL 1 rather than 2? Does delaying it by a single level make it significantly more or less suitable for your specific build and game?


EDIT: If you know an alternate way for an animal companion to get a martial tradition, that'd also be fantastic. I'm just getting into spheres stuff and exploring possibilities, so I don't quite know what all the options are yet.I'm unfortunately likely at least as much of a noob as you when it comes to Spheres stuff.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, I have no problems seeing how this could belong in the "not balanced for the table"-category. But if you also think it does, I have to ask why you're looking for a RAW-legal way of pulling it off? I mean, it's not like there aren't a ton of RAW-legal ways to break most games into a thousand little pieces, the RAW-legality is IMO a very poor excuse if coming from an experienced player.

And perhaps just as importantly, why does it have to be at EDL 1 rather than 2? Does delaying it by a single level make it significantly more or less suitable for your specific build and game?

I'm unfortunately likely at least as much of a noob as you when it comes to Spheres stuff.

I don't think it's necessarily broken in a game already Spheres-heavy, but I don't know for sure. I do know that animal companions tend to get a bit squishy in the higher levels, and I'm hoping to mitigate that a bit. As for the importance of a RAW approach, it changes the default answer. Everything in RPGs is just made-up rules we agree to abide by, and change as we please from game to game, but RAW sets the default answer to the question "can I do this". Not having a RAW answer doesn't mean it's balanced or unbalanced, it just means that what you're trying to do is something the designers didn't think of when making rules for the game. For example, there doesn't seem to be rules on the maximum size of a creature you can mount and ride via the Ride skill, only a minimum based on your own size...but at the same time, while there's no rule saying a Gnome can't mount the tarrasque, there's no rules saying they can either, so given how the system handles things, the default answer is "no", subject to DM adjudication, and maybe the DM lets you do it. If you can find a RAW way to pull off whatever it is you're trying to do, that doesn't prevent the DM from saying no, because they're final arbiter on what is and isn't allowed, but it changes that default answer.

Okay so basics of giving animal companions talents: there's an AC template that gives up a bunch of AC abilities in exchange for getting two talents per four HD (as well as gaining the ability to spend feats on talents regardless of Int score). Alternatively, I could give up five feats (1/5/9/13/17) for two talents per four HD, or give up eight feats (1/3/5/9/11/13/17/19) for three talents per four HD. These three options can't be stacked. Because this game will be more feat-heavy as it goes on, I'd prefer to keep the AC abilities and give up the feats for a talent progression, but "giving up the feats for a talent progression" requires either the animal to be capable of deciding what to do with its own feats (requiring at least Int 3 per the animal companion rules), or that it be handwaved as something akin to the combat training Handle Animal can give (which is potentially fitting, but is definitely in DM adjudication area). Now, if the animal is smart enough, I can just give up the feats for a progression no issue, but that doesn't get me a martial tradition because that particular option doesn't explicitly spell out that it gives them one. Additionally, the AC template doesn't give them a martial tradition either. However, there are general rules for acquiring a martial tradition if whatever's giving you combat talents doesn't explicitly do so:


Some classes grant a martial tradition as part of their proficiencies, but characters who do not may choose to trade their starting proficiencies (other than simple weapons, light armor, and bucklers, if applicable) for a martial tradition at 1st level, as long as their normal starting proficiencies include proficiency with all martial weapons or at least one exotic weapon (this does not include clerics whose deity’s favored weapon is an exotic weapon or similar features that modify starting proficiencies based on other character choices). Some classes who do not gain proficiency with all martial weapons but whose class description implies a strong martial background may trade their starting proficiencies for a martial tradition with GM approval.

If your class doesn't give you one, but you have all martial or any exotic weapon proficiencies, you can trade those for a tradition. There's also a potential caveat for people who don't have the required proficiencies but whose mechanics imply a strong martial tradition, but not only is this DM adjudication territory (meaning the default answer is "no"), but I can't imagine it'd be easy convincing a DM that Animal HD naturally comes with a long proud tradition of charging into battle with some idiot on your back and that tradition should be enough for a Martial Tradition. Just finding a way to snag the proficiencies seems easier. :smalltongue: I guess maybe I could exchange the feats when I would first gain the HD 1 feat, then when I get the HD 3 feat, make it EWP then immediately trade it for a martial tradition?

[stack]

Martial beast. (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/martial-beast) doesn't give a tradition, but does give a progression, if that helps at all.

Edit - your post made while writing this one shows you already know that.

[upho]

I don't think it's necessarily broken in a game already Spheres-heavy, but I don't know for sure. I do know that animal companions tend to get a bit squishy in the higher levels, and I'm hoping to mitigate that a bit.I dunno 'bout that, actually. I think this comes from a time when there weren't as great AC options as there are now, because there are quite a few 1PP ways to make an AC an absolute combat monster also in higher levels, more with DSP (and I assume Spheres). You won't get there with something like a horse or dire badger of course, but with for example an allosaurus, elasmotherium or warcat you certainly can.


As for the importance of a RAW approach, it changes the default answer.I completely agree with this, but my point was that regardless of whether something's RAW legal or not, you shouldn't bring something to the table which you know or suspect will be unsuitable for the game. But seeing that you don't actually know in this case, I guess that point is kinda moot.


Okay so basics of giving animal companions talents:

/snip/

If your class doesn't give you one, but you have all martial or any exotic weapon proficiencies, you can trade those for a tradition.Aight. Looking at the rules you quoted, I think you actually have more dire problems than the +1 bab prereq of EWP, namely (my emphasis):

"may choose to trade their starting proficiencies... ...for a martial tradition at 1st level, as long as their normal starting proficiencies include proficiency with all martial weapons or at least one exotic weapon"

An AC never has anything but proficiency with its natural weapons (and unarmed strikes) as its "normal starting proficiencies". The EWP feat won't change this fact in any way. And this makes a lot of sense, seeing that the quoted rule is most likely intended to limit access to the most martial classes (which ACs certainly aren't).

IOW, I can say with certainty that there's no RAW-legal way for an AC to take advantage of this possibility.


There's also a potential caveat for people who don't have the required proficiencies but whose mechanics imply a strong martial tradition, but not only is this DM adjudication territory (meaning the default answer is "no"), but I can't imagine it'd be easy convincing a DM that Animal HD naturally comes with a long proud tradition of charging into battle with some idiot on your back and that tradition should be enough for a Martial Tradition. Just finding a way to snag the proficiencies seems easier. :smalltongue:Unfortunately, I believe it would be far easier for you to convince your GM that your animal's HD "naturally comes with a long proud tradition of charging into battle with some idiot on your back" than getting all martial or an exotic weapon proficiency as your AC's "normal starting proficiencies". I guess you could claim that an AC which gets combat training per default at 1st comes with the "charging into battle with some idiot on your back"-proficiency, or something... :smallbiggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

I dunno 'bout that, actually. I think this comes from a time when there weren't as great AC options as there is now, because there are quite a few 1PP ways to make an AC an absolute combat monster also in higher levels, more with DSP (and I assume Spheres). You won't get there with something like a horse or dire badger of course, but with for example an allosaurus, elasmotherium or warcat you certainly can.

I completely agree with this, but my point was that regardless of whether something's RAW legal or not, you shouldn't bring something to the table which you know or suspect will be unsuitable for the game. But seeing that you don't actually know in this case, I guess that point is kinda moot.

Aight. Looking at the rules you quoted, I think you actually have more dire problems than the +1 bab prereq of EWP, namely (my emphasis):

"may choose to trade their starting proficiencies... ...for a martial tradition at 1st level, as long as their normal starting proficiencies include proficiency with all martial weapons or at least one exotic weapon"

An AC never has anything but proficiency with its natural weapons (and unarmed strikes) as its "normal starting proficiencies". The EWP feat won't change this fact in any way. And this makes a lot of sense, seeing that the quoted rule is most likely intended to limit access to the most martial classes (which ACs certainly aren't).

IOW, I can say with certainty that there's no RAW-legal way for an AC to take advantage of this possibility.

Unfortunately, I believe it would be far easier for you to convince your GM that your animal's HD "naturally comes with a long proud tradition of charging into battle with some idiot on your back" than getting all martial or an exotic weapon proficiency as your AC's "normal starting proficiencies". I guess you could claim that an AC which gets combat training per default at 1st comes with the "charging into battle with some idiot on your back"-proficiency, or something... :smallbiggrin:

Indeed. This is part of why I'm not a big fan of the "just spend a feat on it" answer I got so frequently in this thread. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Agreed with upho, the "normal starting proficiencies" pretty much exclude anything save fiat.