[DDS][Spheres of Might] Leadership Sphere playtest

[stack]

I am here to announce the start of the playtest for the Leadership sphere, a new Spheres of Might sphere focused on recruiting cohorts and having a group of followers.

Leadership Sphere Playtest, the General's Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/195_lq-QST3LZ1h6X2adb6Y2h8Lnx7QFDWu4Qer_HqeM/edit#heading=h.mkftb347zrkd)

Hold nothing (pertinent) back. Thanks for all your help.

[Llyarden]

Directing the Charge should probably say 'joint' action instead of 'shared,' since that's the phrasing everything else uses.

Ground Game might need to be renamed, given that there's already a combat talent with that name. (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/wrestling#toc5)

The money generation ability of the Entertainers and Merchants seems a little odd, since the amount of money they create increases (more or less) linearly with level but the general amounts of wealth you're dealing with increases much more rapidly. Like, at 1st level, you could probably expect to have Diplomacy +10 and therefore make 40gp/week, which is quite a lot. By 10th level, though, even if you have Diplomacy +30, making 80gp/week isn't as big a deal when your character has about 60k in magic items.

[Mehangel]

I noticed that in the introduction summary, it doesn't include all the contained archetypes

[stack]

Directing the Charge should probably say 'joint' action instead of 'shared,' since that's the phrasing everything else uses.

Ground Game might need to be renamed, given that there's already a combat talent with that name. (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/wrestling#toc5)

The money generation ability of the Entertainers and Merchants seems a little odd, since the amount of money they create increases (more or less) linearly with level but the general amounts of wealth you're dealing with increases much more rapidly. Like, at 1st level, you could probably expect to have Diplomacy +10 and therefore make 40gp/week, which is quite a lot. By 10th level, though, even if you have Diplomacy +30, making 80gp/week isn't as big a deal when your character has about 60k in magic items.

Names, my nemesis. Now ground team, unless I come up with something better.

The wealth curve is a bit tricky. The talents are supposed to be giving a small bonus, but currently the low end is high and the high end is low, so I will probably have to complicate it.


I noticed that in the introduction summary, it doesn't include all the contained archetypes

Fixed that shortly after making it public.

[StSword]

The ability to recruit undead or contructs is cool, and all, but I really feel there needs to be an option, perhaps an advanced talent, to make them non mindless.

Someone is going to want a setup ala Richard the "mayor of a little town up the coast" from Looking for Group.

[digiman619]

Why is there no way, even with advanced talents, to have a casting cohort? If you're worried about the explosion of new talents, you can limit your caster cohort to predetermined specialties of three spheres. In fact, let me do a quick write up:

Caster:Hit Dice D6; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (bad), Will (good); Ability Scores Str 8, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 10; Skill Points per Hit Die 4; Class Skills Spellcraft, Knowledge (all), Use Magic Device.
Rather than gain a martial tradition, casters are midcasters. They use Intelligence as their casting modifier. For every 4 ranks in Diplomacy you possess, they get a bonus magic talent.
Choose a specialization below. A caster can only select talents from his specialization's spheres. A caster can't take the Extra Magic Talent feat without GM approval, and even then they may not choose a talent outside their specialization.
Black Mage: Blood, Death, Destruction
Druid: Alteration, Nature, Weather. You may swap one of these spheres for the Fallen Fey sphere.
Fortune Teller: Divination, Fate, Time
Infiltrator: Dark, War, Warp
Mentalist: Illusion, Mind, Telekinesis
Summoner: Conjuration, Creation, Light
White Mage: Enhancement, Life, Protection

[Mehangel]

I actually like digi's suggestion, except I would make them low-casters instead of mid-casters.

[Castilonium]

Which talent takes precedence when ordering a Drafted cohort to commit suicide via Brainwash? Is the cohort released because Draft says they are when given suicidal orders, or do they commit suicide because Brainwash says they obey suicidal orders?

[digiman619]

I actually like digi's suggestion, except I would make them low-casters instead of mid-casters.

No, you really don't. Look at the table again. At 10th level, your cohort will have 8 HD. If we make him a lowcaster, that means that you will be getting a maximum CL of 4. That makes a lot of spheres practically worthless, which kills the entire point of getting a casting cohort. Midcaster is much more reasonable, especially if they print a caster equivalent to the Combat Sphere Specialization feat, to make them fullcaster in one sphere, but for cohorts only.

[Mehangel]

No, you really don't. Look at the table again. At 10th level, your cohort will have 8 HD. If we make him a lowcaster, that means that you will be getting a maximum CL of 4. That makes a lot of spheres practically worthless, which kills the entire point of getting a casting cohort. Midcaster is much more reasonable, especially if they print a caster equivalent to the Combat Sphere Specialization feat, to make them fullcaster in one sphere, but for cohorts only.

No, you heard me right, and I disagree that it would make any of the spheres useless. Would it make some of the sphere abilities (mostly combat oriented abilities) less reliable or less useful? Yes. But most spheres have atleast one talent that has utility and out of combat functionality. In the very least, even combat oriented spheres such as Destruction, will likely net a DPR increase simply as a result of minionmancy.

[Galacktic]

So I've given this a pretty thorough readthrough, and I can't see any major issues with the Sphere - and I have to say, this is probably the most interesting, thematic use of Leadership I've ever seen? Kudos to you all for the work in it!

[inuyasha]

Wow, I can't wait to look through this. I'm going to run my first Spheres game soon, and Leadership was already going to play a big role in it. Thank y'all so much for coming up with this!

[Seerow]

So I know it's an advanced talent but..


Once per kingdom turn, you may form an army. This army has a CR equal to your ranks in Diplomacy-2 and has a racial composition similar to your followers. Forming this army costs 0 build points and it has a consumption of 0. This army gains a +4 bonus on morale checks when your are acting as its commander.

Basically every month you get to raise a new army that costs nothing and sticks around indefinitely. I feel like this is probably intended to only let you have a single army from the feature at any given time, but it should be made explicit, or it will break army based combat.


Other than this...I feel like a lot of the talents for this sphere lean towards the weak side. Maybe it's just because I am used to using regular leadership in games... but I'm spending one feat for a weaker cohort, a second feat for my followers, then a third feat to make my followers useful to actually do anything besides follow me around and gather supplies.

But seriously, just compare the Cohort Specialization with the Tame Specialization of Beast Mastery. Instead of getting a cohort at 3/4 my level, I get an Animal up to my hit dice. Now if it was a fully built PC class character I could see the argument of a Cohort having a place even if the raw numbers are lower... but then we have a handful of set 'professions' rather than classes that your cohort can fall into, which basically make them exactly as limited as animals. And then I get the ability in Beast Mastery to spend up to 3 talents to increase the number of tamed beasts I get... as far as I can see there is no similar extra cohorts ability. You can have multiple cohorts, but they're still capped by your level in total, so if you are level 20 you can have a 15hd cohort and a 5hd cohort, but not 2 15hd cohorts. Meanwhile over in BM land I spend 2 talents and have 2 20hd animals at my side. It's a pretty stark contrast. Like, is there something major I'm missing with the cohorts here?

For the followers, I actually really like a lot of the options. I'd like to see getting a single follower talent as a bonus for picking that specialization, just so out the gate one of your followers can do something interesting, and are a bit more tailored to the character without needing to make a more serious investment.

[Mithril Leaf]

So I know it's an advanced talent but..



Basically every month you get to raise a new army that costs nothing and sticks around indefinitely. I feel like this is probably intended to only let you have a single army from the feature at any given time, but it should be made explicit, or it will break army based combat.


Other than this...I feel like a lot of the talents for this sphere lean towards the weak side. Maybe it's just because I am used to using regular leadership in games... but I'm spending one feat for a weaker cohort, a second feat for my followers, then a third feat to make my followers useful to actually do anything besides follow me around and gather supplies.

But seriously, just compare the Cohort Specialization with the Tame Specialization of Beast Mastery. Instead of getting a cohort at 3/4 my level, I get an Animal up to my hit dice. Now if it was a fully built PC class character I could see the argument of a Cohort having a place even if the raw numbers are lower... but then we have a handful of set 'professions' rather than classes that your cohort can fall into, which basically make them exactly as limited as animals. And then I get the ability in Beast Mastery to spend up to 3 talents to increase the number of tamed beasts I get... as far as I can see there is no similar extra cohorts ability. You can have multiple cohorts, but they're still capped by your level in total, so if you are level 20 you can have a 15hd cohort and a 5hd cohort, but not 2 15hd cohorts. Meanwhile over in BM land I spend 2 talents and have 2 20hd animals at my side. It's a pretty stark contrast. Like, is there something major I'm missing with the cohorts here?

For the followers, I actually really like a lot of the options. I'd like to see getting a single follower talent as a bonus for picking that specialization, just so out the gate one of your followers can do something interesting, and are a bit more tailored to the character without needing to make a more serious investment.


Greater Recruitment (cohort)

Increase the total Hit Dice of creatures you may have recruited once by an additional 1 per rank of Diplomacy you possess. You may select this talent up to 3 times.
I don't generally disagree but that is in there.

[Seerow]

I don't generally disagree but that is in there.

Thank you. I honestly did make a second pass through the talents, but somehow missed it both times.

[stack]

Regarding casting cohorts, they are available via the advanced cohorts legendary talent. I am still evaluating making them available as a basic options.

The army issue has been patched; 1 free army at a time only.

Cohorts do have certain advantages over animals, such as the ease of upgrading or modifying them simply by giving them gear that would otherwise have been vendor trash. Cohorts also do not require handling checks and are in general much more capable of intelligent, independent actions.

[Seerow]

Regarding casting cohorts, they are available via the advanced cohorts legendary talent. I am still evaluating making them available as a basic options.

The army issue has been patched; 1 free army at a time only.

Awesome!


Cohorts do have certain advantages over animals, such as the ease of upgrading or modifying them simply by giving them gear that would otherwise have been vendor trash. Cohorts also do not require handling checks and are in general much more capable of intelligent, independent actions.

1) 'Vendor Trash' is typically what is keeping PCs wbl appropriate. If you're investing in equipping a cohort from your personal wealth, you're going to suffer as a result. But if that is what you want to do, you can invest that same gold into an animal who will have more HD, more special abilities, and better stats.

2) Ultimately, what is the net effect of the weak scaling? The lowest levels are where having an extra pair of hands is most likely to be strongest, and that is where you currently have cohort level = player level. These early levels are also the most front loaded in terms of features, since the professions have a single class feature (available at level 1), and a martial tradition (also available at level 1). Meanwhile as you get higher level, those benefits mean less and less, while you're also expected to invest your personal wealth into keeping them relevant.

Just compare a level 20 15HD cohort to any mid-CR animal. Say a triceratops, a Warcat, a Behemoth Hippo, even a Dire Bear. Even before advancing HD via Bolster Beast, these are looking better. Boost them to 20HD there is no real comparison. The 15hd cohort has the advantages of being a person and thus blending in better, and being able to act independently while not in sight of the PC... but those are both things that can be accomplished by roleplaying a couple of individuals from followers instead. The point of a Cohort is to provide an ally who is useful in combat, and I am hard pressed to say it actually delivers that when comparing to other similar options a character can choose to invest in.

[Serafina]

Cohorts and Animal Companions basically use the same table, with Cohorts getting higher BAB (+3 at level 20), 1 less HD at level 20, very slightly poorer good saves (-1 at level 20), and both getting the same amount of feats to customize them with. However, for Cohorts you have to jump through more hoops to assign the feats as you want.

Both Cohorts and Animal Companions will need some level of magic items, or a caster to cast buffs on them, to keep them relevant at higher levels.
Cohorts have a slightly easier time using items sized for a humanoid, but in a lot of campaigns re-fitting an item for an animal companion isn't an issue. Humanoids have more item slots, but you're unlikely to fill all of those with good items anyway.

The major difference is that Animal Companions get a bunch of features and upgrades that Cohorts do not.
Specifically, they get Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack, Improved Evasion, passive increases to Strength and Dexterity, and also an advancement at 4th or 7th level that increases their statistics and gives them a special feature.
Cohorts get none of that.

Compare and contrast a Cohort with a Martial Beast (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/martial-beast) Animal Companion, which also gets none of the special features, but still gets the Strength, Dexterity, Natural Armor and 4th/7th level upgrade. Let's take 7th level, which isn't too high yet.
It'll have gained 3 combat talents from it's Proficient progression - which easily makes up for the Martial Tradition the Cohort receives.
But it'll most likely outrank a comparable Cohort in raw stats. Compare a Wolf to a Woodsman.
The Wolf starts with Strength 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, while the Woodsman starts with Strength 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10. That's fairly comparable - but by 7th level, the Wolf gets another +10 to Strength and +4 to Constitution! It'll easily have higher Strength than a Warrior Cohort now, even if the Cohort gets a spare Strength-increasing Belt that the Companion couldn't use for some reason.

Yes, Cohorts have a bunch of social and handling advantages. But these are all negatable, and scale inversely with level - a higher-level Animal Companion will be better trained, and can taken into otherwise inappropriate situations with the right magic if really needed, and other things like that, and will continue to out-class the Cohort in combat. Meanwhile, the Cohort might retain higher skill points - but Animal Companions also have their unique advantages there, such as Scent or unique movement modes.

Bottom Line:
Cohorts really should get something at higher levels.
They don't have to get exactly the same thing as Animal Companions, and don't have to be on exactly the same level. Personally I'd just do it like this:
- just give them Proficient combat talent progression, same as what the martial beast companion gets, it's clearly equivalent to all those features.
- add a few more Ability Score Increases too. Not as much as animal companions get from their +strength/dex and 4th/7th level upgrades in total, but being more flexible in how you assign those would make up for the difference.

[stack]

Scaling enhancement bonus to attributes and proficient talent progression added to cohorts.

[StSword]

Anyone else think there ought to be feat to allow one to apply cohort talents to familiars, animal companions, and summoned companions?

Someone is going to want both beastmastery and leadership, and a champion who fights side by side with his conjured companions and cohorts getting the most out of them combat wise just makes sense.

[khadgar567]

Anyone else think there ought to be feat to allow one to apply cohort talents to familiars, animal companions, and summoned companions?

Someone is going to want both beastmastery and leadership, and a champion who fights side by side with his conjured companions and cohorts getting the most out of them combat wise just makes sense.
When you have bearded devil or hound archon as your companion you ask how to make my familiar or animal companion count as leadership companion.

[stack]

Collective wraith archetype is now up. Its weird.


Anyone else think there ought to be feat to allow one to apply cohort talents to familiars, animal companions, and summoned companions?

Someone is going to want both beastmastery and leadership, and a champion who fights side by side with his conjured companions and cohorts getting the most out of them combat wise just makes sense.

Applying cohort abilities to animal allies (or vise versa) generally makes it very easy to stack up bodies with beastmastery and leadership combined. I have reservations about this. I like it from a mechanical elegance standpoint, but that ends up being a lot of potential meat on the field.

[Doc_Maynot]

Loving collective wraith. "I am an idea, and you cannot kill ideas" as for the crux of the sphere, I'm digging the party variant suggestions, and the follower talents. The cohorts are nice, just kinda get overshadowed by the rest.

[CactusAir]

I like the followers stuff.

Cohort just feels like an inferior Conjuration companion.

I'm always leery of "the DM will make the choice for you" in mechanics because that tends to work out badly in both directions IME.

more feedback later

[Galacktic]

So I was talking it over with some of my group, and we're collectively surprised that there isn't a Champion Bard archetype? This seems like a pretty prime opportunity to make one - Leadership fits well with Bard, there's already feat support in the new playtest, and you could make it more focused about making cohorts better over the Bard's own personal power.

[stack]

So I was talking it over with some of my group, and we're collectively surprised that there isn't a Champion Bard archetype? This seems like a pretty prime opportunity to make one - Leadership fits well with Bard, there's already feat support in the new playtest, and you could make it more focused about making cohorts better over the Bard's own personal power.

There will be a simple champion bard archetype in Expanded Options 2: Champions, playtest coming soon.

I didn't have a specific hook for a leadership bard, beyond what ended up in the one feat.

[stack]

Added the Master Necroturge feat for leadership/death users.

[stack]

And then I added a unified tradition, a couple traits, and some racial options. More may follow.

2019/5/15: Added Folk Hero Base of Operations basic talent, modified sedentary drawback to work with it. Added tiefling alternate racial.

[Serafina]

So, I've been considering this for a while now: Cohorts have a flavor of being much more independent companions than eidolons, conjuration sphere companions, or animal companions. Why not take advantage of that and make a talent, or re-write Recruit, so that you can call in a Cohort with the right skill set as needed?

This would have the advantage of giving the Leadership sphere a more unique feel. It'd be the Sphere you take if you want flexible Companions - while Conjuration/Beastmastery is there for more specialized ones. It fits right in with those companions being people with their own lives, too.

Hence, something like this:
Recruit: (...) When you dismiss a Cohort from your service, it is easier for you to call upon them in the future and they will remain your Ally. An Ally will go back to their normal life and is treated like any other NPC of helpful disposition, and is no longer treated as a Cohort. However, an Ally will keep gaining levels as if they were your Cohort, and you can recruit them at any time without making a Diplomacy check simply by communicating them (including via letter or magical communication). If you do, they will make their best effort to reach your location as soon as possible.
You can have a number of Allies at any given time equal to twice the number of Leadership talents you have.

That'd enable you to have, say, a Warrior, a Woodsman, a Thief, and three Scholars on standby at any given time, all specialized in something different. You couldn't take all of those with you - even with Greater Recruitment - but they'd still be close friends, comrades in arms, pen pals, sellswords you've worked with, whatever.
And if you find that you've stumbled upon a dwarven ruin in the middle of nowhere where you really need an engineering specialist who can climb around ancient ruins - well, one of your Scholars is just right for that job! You can call them and they'll travel there on their own.

To some degree you can already do stuff like this of course. If you're already in a proper settlement, nothing stops you from dismissing your current cohort and recruiting a new one - except immersion. If feels bad to permanently dismiss a Cohort just because you need another one right now - it'd feel better if you just tell them to wait out this job instead and can recruit them again later.


So I think this would be really nice to have.
And if you do this, some of the Follower movement talents could be updated to allow your Cohorts to get to your location faster.

[stack]

Serafina, that is an interesting proposal for adding crunch to the concept that otherwise is left to handwaving. I will think about it, but I like the idea.

[Mehangel]

As someone who is a huge fan of the Recruit feat, I really want to see this talent included.

[Serafina]

Serafina, that is an interesting proposal for adding crunch to the concept that otherwise is left to handwaving. I will think about it, but I like the idea.I'm really glad you like the concept :smallsmile:

If this is done, then the following Follower-talents could be enhanced to improve how quickly you can contact Allies:
- Base of Operations could allow an Ally to settle in each base - justified by your followers making special accomodations for them to make the place more attractive. That way, a player can spread allies strategically across a map, if such a thing matters in a campaign.
- Messengers already has obvious utility for contacting Allies, no improvement needed for that effect. However, I'd give it innate synergy with (X, Y and Z)
- Rangers should increase the overland speed of Allies who travel to you, justified by your followers putting out clear trails or signs for them to follow, providing accurate maps, and the allies having access to swift mounts or being provided relays by your followers off-screen.
- Air Travel should likewise apply to your followers.
- Teleportation could get a clause that allows some of your followers to split up and fetch your allies - I'd just integrate it with Messengers, the same way it's integrated with Merchants (so, the Ally arrives within 1D4 days regardless of distance
- Planisphere should be handled in a similar manner.

Of course these are all just suggestions, but I feel like this is a nice interface between Cohorts and Followers that could be used well.
I just wouldn't have Allies travel with your Caraven after you dismiss them - that'd make recruitment too easy, and it'd hurt the image of allies as their own people.

[stack]

Added the mixed coordinator feat for letting you reduce talent redundancy between beastmastery and leadership without inflating the minionmancy capabilities.

Looking to go to layout in the near future, so will be reviewing and closing comments over the next week. Might stay open longer, depending on the art delivery.

[stack]

I just added in follower contracts to allow temporarily hiring followers. Its a rough first stab at the idea.

The orc warlord has been pulled to save space.

The collective has a couple new haunts this week.

[pi4t]

Can I suggest changing the name of the sphere? It's rather similar to "Warleader". Using a different name might also avoid potential purchasers/GMs seeing the book is about "Leadership" and slamming it with a blanket ban.

[stack]

Can I suggest changing the name of the sphere? It's rather similar to "Warleader". Using a different name might also avoid potential purchasers/GMs seeing the book is about "Leadership" and slamming it with a blanket ban.

The sphere is about leadership; the core concept is taking the feat and breaking it up into usable pieces, limiting power and expanding capability to get past the issues with the feat. I prefer to be upfront with what it is trying to do.

[Serafina]

I feel the name is distinctive enough from Warleader, when they come up in conversation you won't really get the two confused. They sound different, have different syllables and so on.
And the theme is really too closely tied to the Leadership feat to change it, the whole point is to go to a GM and say "hey, here's a more balanced alternative to that brokenly-OP feat". After all, the OP part isn't having some sort of companion, it's getting another PC at -2 levels for the cost of a feat, plus a lot of followers that do stuff for you that was the broken part.


Also I see you implemented Contacts, yay :smallsmile:

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Does anyone have a copy of the playtest doc? I was using it in a game and we're meeting tomorrow

[StSword]

Does anyone have a copy of the playtest doc? I was using it in a game and we're meeting tomorrow

I don't have a copy of the playtest document, but this seems like a good opportunity to point out the book is out on drivethrurpg- The General's Handbook by Drop Dead Studios.

[stack]

Yeah, I forgot to do that. I was having device issues so didn't know when it actually hit until a couple days after.