What plot twist most disappointed you?

[Calavera]

No disrespect to the Giant is intended, whatever he comes up with will be better than my stuff for sure. That said, are there any plot elements that when introduced made you disappointed?

Mine would be in Girard's Gate: Roy vs Xykon, and it's not an epic climactic battle. In fact Xykon goes down like a bitch. OK we expected Redcloak vs Xykon trouble was brewing, but now the plot is that Xykon wasn't the big bad after all, Redcloak is going to have to complete the ritual without Xykon and find a new epic caster, what a magnificent twist... Oh.

[Mightymosy]

The "solution" how Durkon beat Durkula. For me, didn't match the setup for the scene, and the explanation given (outside the comic) read like a "rules-lawyering" victory. Basically, kill Durkula with a buffer-overrun....

Emotionally, it was pretty nice, though.

[Peelee]

No disrespect to the Giant is intended, whatever he comes up with will be better than my stuff for sure. That said, are there any plot elements that when introduced made you disappointed?

Mine would be in Girard's Gate: Roy vs Xykon, and it's not an epic climactic battle. In fact Xykon goes down like a bitch.

Xykon just lost his legs and pelvis. Dude still seemed perfectly capable of fighting if he'd wanted.

[Calavera]

Xykon just lost his legs and pelvis. Dude still seemed perfectly capable of fighting if he'd wanted.

??? I've no idea what you mean. In that scene, which for just a brief moment I thought was real, Xykon had full on double dead "x"s for eyes.

Edit, just realised you think I meant the scene with the real Xykon, after the gate blew up. Nope.

[hroþila]

In Peelee's defense, it took me a LONG while to figure out that "Oh" at the end meant "Oh, it was just an illusion, none of this actually happened, how disappointing" rather than "Oh, Xykon going down so easily was a disappointing twist and I'm being sarcastic", which made your post very confusing for me.

It wasn't exactly a plot twist, but I was disappointed that Andi turned out to be completely unreasonable and basically cuckoo. Similarly, I wasn't a fan of Miko's "I'm special" thing.

[ti'esar]

Uh, I'm pretty sure Peelee was being tongue-in-cheek.

[Peelee]

Uh, I'm pretty sure Peelee was being tongue-in-cheek.

...... Yeeeeees, I totally didn't make the same misreading hroþila*did, nope, not at all.

[understatement]

With time most plot twists that didn't pack the punch the first time sort of settle around, so I'll throw this one it:

where Haley makes the shot. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html)

The 1st time I got there I was pretty surprised, because I always viewed Haley's hair as orange (which I suppose is on the red color spectrum). However, on rereads this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) confirmed Haley's hair was a variant of red, so all was good.

Pretty cool reveal, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html) and the ensuing fight's conclusion made him burning in the sun somewhat vindicating, but foreshadowing leading up to it was a little on the sparse side.

And this one, I guess.He only appeared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html) in one previous strip and none of the Greenhilts ever made a single mention of him. Still, it's one of the sweetest and saddest strips in the whole comic and the context makes it all the more better.

[Ron Miel]

The four words.

There's a lack of direct connection between saying the words and gaining power. And, as Xykon points out, the power was never really V's to begin with.

[CriticalFailure]

In Peelee's defense, it took me a LONG while to figure out that "Oh" at the end meant "Oh, it was just an illusion, none of this actually happened, how disappointing" rather than "Oh, Xykon going down so easily was a disappointing twist and I'm being sarcastic", which made your post very confusing for me.

It wasn't exactly a plot twist, but I was disappointed that Andi turned out to be completely unreasonable and basically cuckoo. Similarly, I wasn't a fan of Miko's "I'm special" thing.

Yeah I was kind of confused about where all that came from with Andi. It seemed out of left field and like an extra villain was needed.

[Mightymosy]

With time most plot twists that didn't pack the punch the first time sort of settle around, so I'll throw this one it:

where Haley makes the shot. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html)

The 1st time I got there I was pretty surprised, because I always viewed Haley's hair as orange (which I suppose is on the red color spectrum). However, on rereads this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) confirmed Haley's hair was a variant of red, so all was good.

Pretty cool reveal, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html) and the ensuing fight's conclusion made him burning in the sun somewhat vindicating, but foreshadowing leading up to it was a little on the sparse side.

And this one, I guess.He only appeared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html) in one previous strip and none of the Greenhilts ever made a single mention of him. Still, it's one of the sweetest and saddest strips in the whole comic and the context makes it all the more better.
Honestly, I didn't get that at first as well.
I thought they were talking about the red hair clip or jewel or whatever pulls Haley's hair together and is red.......
But that's just me and English language =)



The four words.

There's a lack of direct connection between saying the words and gaining power. And, as Xykon points out, the power was never really V's to begin with.

I admit I rather liked that one except I found the "it's 4 words because repetition of I" a little un-elegant.
But again, just me and English language.....I came to like it, and it certainly makes sense with the interpretation that it served as an emphasis that V, V AND NOBODY ELSE had to succeed!


Yeah I was kind of confused about where all that came from with Andi. It seemed out of left field and like an extra villain was needed.

Yeah, for me that also was a little bit of a weird setup that didn't exactly pan out to give me the impression that was probably intended....
It is ok that Rich needed an antagonist for Bandana and if that needs to be her former babysitter who is jealous - fine. But it just wasn't set up very well in my opinion. Not extremely bad or anything, but also not as well as other story arcs.

To each their own, I guess.

[Wizard_Lizard]

that the linear guild were evil.
I know.
One of the first twists.
I like zzd'tri

[factotum]

The four words.

There's a lack of direct connection between saying the words and gaining power. And, as Xykon points out, the power was never really V's to begin with.

The direct connection is there because those were the words V used to convince himself that he should accept the fiend's deal--hence being the right four words at the right time to the right person (himself) for all the wrong reasons. If he hadn't said the words he'd probably have withdrawn his hand and tried to find another way to save his family.

[understatement]

The stutter's also a little off.

I guess "I have to succeed" wouldn't fit V's speech patterns, though.

[The Pilgrim]

I was dissapointed with Hylgia murdering Durkon and being allowed to get away with it. Though I still hope that a proper karmic death will visit her before the end of the current book.

[hroþila]

The stutter's also a little off.

I guess "I have to succeed" wouldn't fit V's speech patterns, though.
I don't think that was a stutter, but a longer pause. Stuttering would have been represented as "I– I must succeed", I think.

[understatement]

I was dissapointed with Hylgia murdering Durkon and being allowed to get away with it. Though I still hope that a proper karmic death will visit her before the end of the current book.

As Roy points out, she's "allowed to get away with it" because it's also Durkon's kid strapped to her chest (well, until this current strip. Guess she's fair game then).

[Takver]

Do you know, I can't think of one. Rich is very good at plot twists and satisfying reveals; that's one of his biggest strengths as a writer, I think. I don't ever remember thinking "that doesn't work." I guess the most wrong-footed I've been is the revelation that Redcloak may be key to saving the world, since I really want him to pay for his crimes. But that hasn't played out yet. I have confidence that Rich will handle it well.

[EmperorSarda]

Mine would be in Girard's Gate: Roy vs Xykon, and it's not an epic climactic battle. In fact Xykon goes down like a bitch. OK we expected Redcloak vs Xykon trouble was brewing, but now the plot is that Xykon wasn't the big bad after all, Redcloak is going to have to complete the ritual without Xykon and find a new epic caster, what a magnificent twist... Oh.

Wait. Your complaint is that Xykon went down too fast in the illusionary battle? As you state later, you believed for a little bit that it was a real fight.

So I don't get your complaint. Or is the complaint that you did believe the illusion and were disappointed that it turned out to be an illusion?

[KorvinStarmast]

MiTD head faking Xykon into leaving the desert (much to Red Cloak's frustration): not sure if that's a plot twist, but it sure wasn't disappointing. It was the rational consequence of O'Chul's mentoring and friendship.

[Resileaf]

MiTD head faking Xykon into leaving the desert (much to Red Cloak's frustration): not sure if that's a plot twist, but it sure wasn't disappointing. It was the rational consequence of O'Chul's mentoring and friendship.

What's clever about this is that there are multiple layers to that. Xykon isn't dumb, and he probably knows that the MitD is trying to save the Order, but what he wants to do most is to reassert his dominance on Redcloak. And there's no better way to do it than by taking the advice of the guy who is obviously covering for the good guys.

[hroþila]

What's clever about this is that there are multiple layers to that. Xykon isn't dumb, and he probably knows that the MitD is trying to save the Order, but what he wants to do most is to reassert his dominance on Redcloak. And there's no better way to do it than by taking the advice of the guy who is obviously covering for the good guys.
That's how I read it too. Xykon felt he had been bested by Redcloak in the Tsukiko affair, so he lashed out at the earliest opportunity in the pettiest way he could think of just to put Redcloak in his place.

[Resileaf]

That's how I read it too. Xykon felt he had been bested by Redcloak in the Tsukiko affair, so he lashed out at the earliest opportunity in the pettiest way he could think of just to put Redcloak in his place.

And it continues at Kraagor's gate. His every interaction with Redcloak is to put him down, insult him, and tell him to shut up because he's the one in charge.

[Fyraltari]

I’m not sure Xykon knew that the MitD was genuinely trying to help the good guy, but as soon as Redcloak took a stance he was going to take the opposite. Or rather as soon as Red tried to order him around ‘‘if you would just listen, for once...’’

[Vinyadan]

I'll go with Andi's motivation, too. This is for two reasons. The first one is that I thought it was the result of two different mentalities (engineer vs artist/dreamer). The second is that I found Andi much easier to relate to: feeling unappreciated and disgruntled in the workplace isn't too rare. I have said in the past that her character had something Dilbertesque about her. I definitely wasn't expecting it to be "she never grew out of being her babysitter".

[CriticalFailure]

I was also confused that the ship's engineer wouldn't know that the weapons could be dropped. Seemed like a pretty big thing for the ship's engineer to miss.


Speaking of Redcloak paying for his crimes and Xykon, it makes me wonder what they could do to him that would make him more unhappy than working with Xykon does.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was also confused that the ship's engineer wouldn't know that the weapons could be dropped. Seemed like a pretty big thing for the ship's engineer to miss.

Because she spent more time on deck complaining to the captain and attempting coups than she did repairing the weapons, obviously.

It is also easy to miss functionality you don't expect to be there. The mechanisms for a quick release should look similar to the mechanism that allows you to slow-release the weapon (for, say, repairs or upgrades).

But ultimately, the text was clear that for all her self-aggrandising, she was just not that great of an engineer, and obviously even less of a captain. Dunning–Kruger effect incarnate, in effect.

Grey Wolf

[understatement]

Speaking of Redcloak paying for his crimes and Xykon, it makes me wonder what they could do to him that would make him more unhappy than working with Xykon does.

Probably Gobbotopia being handed back to Azure City people.

Or the TDO rejecting him.

Or getting soul binded.

RC says he's going to "retire" to Gobbotopia if he has the chance, and we all know what that means. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) And I really can't see anyone but Xykon dealing the final blow.

IMHO

[LadyEowyn]

The Azurites are never returning to Gobbotopia. The city’s fall was a direct consequence of the crimes of the Sapphire Guard; it will not be reversed. And GDGU made it clear that the Azurites are doung fine where they are.

Either Gobbotopia will survive, or it will be destroyed (either by the Rift, or by an angry Xykon). The latter really is the worst thing that could happen to Redcloak.

I want the goblins to have a home and equality with other nations, so I really hope that won’t happen, but it is in line with Rich’s trend of having characters face terrible consequences for their actions.

[Rrmcklin]

What's clever about this is that there are multiple layers to that. Xykon isn't dumb, and he probably knows that the MitD is trying to save the Order, but what he wants to do most is to reassert his dominance on Redcloak. And there's no better way to do it than by taking the advice of the guy who is obviously covering for the good guys.


That's how I read it too. Xykon felt he had been bested by Redcloak in the Tsukiko affair, so he lashed out at the earliest opportunity in the pettiest way he could think of just to put Redcloak in his place.

Pretty sure we have word from the Author that that was exactly what was going on. I don't remember what thread, though.

[Fyraltari]

The Azurites are never returning to Gobbotopia. The city’s fall was a direct consequence of the crimes of the Sapphire Guard; it will not be reversed. And GDGU made it clear that the Azurites are doung fine where they are.
Which make me wonder, are they Westerners now? If Daigo and Kazumi's child becomes a Cleric, can they still worship the Twelve despite being on Marduk & Co's territrorry? Or are islands not part of the division of the world and become part of the territory of the gods of the people who settle them?

[Jasdoif]

Pretty sure we have word from the Author that that was exactly what was going on. I don't remember what thread, though.The subject had its own thread.

This has been answered by other posters, so let me just add my support to these:
I thought I was very believable. Xykon isn't particularly emotionally invested in the Gates - if Kraagor's Gate explodes as well, he'll be irritated, shrug, vapourise Redcloak and move onto the next scheme for world domination, because he has the assets to do so. However, he ''is'' very concerned about protecting himself and his phylactery; if Xykon discovered Redcloak's treachery, Redcloak would be waking up with the Dark One in less time than it takes for Miko to reach a conclusion. Last time Xykon listened to Redcloak, he only just managed to save his phylactery and would've been reduced to ash by two Epic spellcasters and an androgynous elf if not for V's arrogance.
That said, I personally find it bewildering how many people think the MitD fooled Xykon. I think Xykon saw through it like a wet t-shirt, but I also think Xykon is frustrated with delays and the MitD -did- actually make a good point... why waste EVEN MORE time in a squabble for a freaking -crater- when there is another gate completely unaccounted for?

The only dissenting explanation I've seen is "Well, Xykon should be horrifically pissed! He should want to kill something!" That doesn't match how Xykon is presented in the comic. Xykon is shown killing out of boredom or killing to solve a problem, but he isn't shown as someone who murders as a way to vent.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon is definitely someone who kills as a way to vent. It’s just that he so rarely gets invested in something that he almost never gets genuinely upset.

[Lvl45DM!]

Xykon is definitely someone who kills as a way to vent. It’s just that he so rarely gets invested in something that he almost never gets genuinely upset.

Yeah he bisected the serving lady when he couldn't taste coffee anymore

[hroþila]

The subject had its own thread.

Interestingly, no mention was made of Tsukiko or Xykon's suspicions towards Redcloak. It seems those forumers The Giant agreed with were saying that Xykon felt Redcloak's advice wasn't worth listening to anymore due to the phylactery fiasco, and that he was fixated on the idea of not wasting any more time. Frankly, I like my headcanon better :smalltongue:

[factotum]

Yeah he bisected the serving lady when he couldn't taste coffee anymore

And he was within seconds of killing both O-Chul and V when his phylactery was lost, which was largely down to rage.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

??? I've no idea what you mean. In that scene, which for just a brief moment I thought was real, Xykon had full on double dead "x"s for eyes.

Edit, just realised you think I meant the scene with the real Xykon, after the gate blew up. Nope.

In that scene, it was the microcosm, where the 17th level Redcloak only healed himself and Xykon instead of casting Implosion and wrecking two whole party members instantly. It was the best possible scenario for the party to just immediately fight Xykon right then and there. It was what the ones walking in the hallway (the order) wanted which usually would have meant their deaths at the hand of the draketooths. In a real fight with Xykon and RC, there's no guarantee the Spellsplinter Maneuver would have worked and it just happened to work all times Roy tried it, and as mentioned RC would just Implosion them before they could get close.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

RC would just Implosion them before they could get close.

Can implosion one-shot Roy?

Or rather: in a scale from V to Roy, how many OotS members can implosion one-shot?

(or, if it is save-or-die - sorry, d20 srd is blocked for me right now - in a scale of V to Roy, how many members of the OotS does implosion have a >50% chance of killing?)

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

It's a 9th level save or die that targets Fort saves. The DC will be 19+ whatever Redcloak's Wis bonus is (Wis at least 20 according to Geekery, so bonus is at least +5, so DC is at least 24.)

As a 14th level fighter with a Con of at least 12, Roy's Fort save is, at minimum, +10 (+9, +1 for Con).

Roy needs to roll a 14 to survive Implosion (assuming he has minimum CON specified in Geekery Thread).

So, even Roy has a better than 50% chance of being killed with Implosion.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Can implosion one-shot Roy?

Or rather: in a scale from V to Roy, how many OotS members can implosion one-shot?

(or, if it is save-or-die - sorry, d20 srd is blocked for me right now - in a scale of V to Roy, how many members of the OotS does implosion have a >50% chance of killing?)

Grey Wolf

Last I read, Implosion is a #-of-rounds per caster level, point at a creature, it dies, probably with a fort save. And with RC's save DC, and how it killed the leader of the Eleven Insurgents, he could probably kill anyone in the party but Roy and Durkon with it at 50%+ accuracy.

EDIT: it's up to 4 rounds, and fort negates. Due to the clerics' and fighters' +9 to fort saves and RC's DC 22+ save DC, he could kill V, Elan, and Haley pretty easily and the other three slightly less so.

[Resileaf]

Of course, that's just his minimum, he could be higher than this, but we wouldn't know for sure. At the very least, everyone treats him as having enough fortitude to tank some pretty hefty hits, but if Hilgya can fail a will save, Roy can fail a fortitude save.

O-Chul can definitely tank implosion for hours without issue though.

[hamishspence]

Last I read, Implosion is a #-of-rounds per caster level, point at a creature, it dies, probably with a fort save.

Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds).

So, he can only kill a maximum of 4 people with 1 casting.

[Resileaf]

Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds).

So, he can only kill a maximum of 4 people with 1 casting.

Only four people. :P

[Jasdoif]

EDIT: it's up to 4 rounds, and fort negates. Due to the clerics' and fighters' +9 to fort saves and RC's DC 22+ save DC, he could kill V, Belkar, and Haley pretty easily and the other three less so.Belkar has two good Fort save classes (ranger and barbarian), so he has a second +2 boost; and a +3 vest of resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) besides.

[Resileaf]

Too bad protection from evil's resistance bonus wouldn't stack with that vest.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Belkar has two good Fort save classes (ranger and barbarian), so he has a second +2 boost; and a +3 vest of resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) besides.

He got his vest in tinkertown, didn't he?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He got his vest in tinkertown, didn't he?

Err... yes? They literally linked you to the strip in which he got it.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Belkar has two good Fort save classes (ranger and barbarian), so he has a second +2 boost; and a +3 vest of resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) besides.

Indeed. Elan, as (mostly) a Bard, is a better candidate for "Very vulnerable to it" in the same fashion as V and Haley.

[Jasdoif]

He got his vest in tinkertown, didn't he?Yes. I'm not entirely sure if we're talking exclusively about the illusion in Girard's pyramid, or if we could also be talking about if Redcloak fights the Order at some point in the next book.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Yes. I'm not entirely sure if we're talking exclusively about the illusion in Girard's pyramid, or if we could also be talking about if Redcloak fights the Order at some point in the next book.

I was assuming it were the former, for I was stating that the fight with Team Evil in the pyramid was not a disappointing fight, because it didn't happen, not really, and that Redcloak would have thought it best to implode Roy and next Haley instead of healing sneak attacks and greatsword damage that won't matter if he can just kill the enemies instantly.

Even if Belkar had the vest he would have ~+14 to his save (which by hamishspence's math gets him barely to a 50-50 odds), and Redcloak would take those odds anyway.

Watch Redcloak never prepare Implosion again since all the monsters in Kraagor's Tomb have probably better-than-the-order Fortitude, so we don't ever have to think about our favorite characters getting imploded in one or two panels when their arcs go over all 1300+ comics leading up to that point.

[hroþila]

Whoa, is Implosion really as broken as you guys are making it sound?
(<--- Not a D&D player)

[hamishspence]

Belkar's Con score is not known. If it's high, his save may be better than +14. That said, I'd agree that, even if he's the most likely of the Order to survive an Implosion, his chances still aren't great.


Whoa, is Implosion really as broken as you guys are making it sound?
(<--- Not a D&D player)

9th level spells are supposed to be very dangerous. It still allows Spell Resistance though.

[Resileaf]

Whoa, is Implosion really as broken as you guys are making it sound?
(<--- Not a D&D player)

In D&D, there are spells which are known as "Save or die" spells. Those spells, if you fail your saving throw once, instantly kill, or at least remove your character from the fight. Implosion is one such spell. Other such spell would petrify your character, or mind control them, or paralyze them.

Unsurprisingly, those kinds of spells are a reason why spellcasters constantly have an edge over a physical damage-focused character.

[hroþila]

In D&D, there are spells which are known as "Save or die" spells. Those spells, if you fail your saving throw once, instantly kill, or at least remove your character from the fight. Implosion is one such spell. Other such spell would petrify your character, or mind control them, or paralyze them.

Unsurprisingly, those kinds of spells are a reason why spellcasters constantly have an edge over a physical damage-focused character.
Yeah, I mean, I knew of "Save or die" spells, what I didn't know is that a single Implosion spell potentially allows you to do it to four different people. That sounds rather excessive.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, I mean, I knew of "Save or die" spells, what I didn't know is that a single Implosion spell potentially allows you to do it to four different people. That sounds rather excessive.

It does take four rounds, though. A lot can happen to the caster in those four rounds, I'd imagine.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, I mean, I knew of "Save or die" spells, what I didn't know is that a single Implosion spell potentially allows you to do it to four different people. That sounds rather excessive.Ninth-level spells tend towards the excessive. For another example, wail of the banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm) is save-or-die for 17+ people. (It's also a sonic effect and a death effect, so there are more defenses against it as compared to implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm).)

[understatement]

Is Implosion consecutive? RC used it consecutively (from what the strip shows) on the Commander and Lieutenant, but if it's not he could technically "save it" for later use if he holds his Concentration.

Also, implosion is such a cool word. Implosion, implosion, implosion.

[Resileaf]

Is Implosion consecutive? RC used it consecutively (from what the strip shows) on the Commander and Lieutenant, but if it's not he could technically "save it" for later use if he holds his Concentration.

Also, implosion is such a cool word. Implosion, implosion, implosion.

The rounds it can be used are consecutive. You don't have to use implosion every round, but you can't wait ten rounds between uses. It's four rounds maximum.

[Jasdoif]

Is Implosion consecutive? RC used it consecutively (from what the strip shows) on the Commander and Lieutenant, but if it's not he could technically "save it" for later use if he holds his Concentration.If he stops concentrating on it, the spell ends.

[understatement]

Ooh, okay. Thanks.

[hroþila]

It does take four rounds, though. A lot can happen to the caster in those four rounds, I'd imagine.

Ninth-level spells tend towards the excessive. For another example, wail of the banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm) is save-or-die for 17+ people. (It's also a sonic effect and a death effect, so there are more defenses against it as compared to implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm).)
I guess that makes sense. On paper it sounds wild to me (and that Wail of the Banshee thing sounds positively insane), but I defer to your greater experience and knowledge.

[Peelee]

I guess that makes sense. On paper it sounds wild to me (and that Wail of the Banshee thing sounds positively insane), but I defer to your greater experience and knowledge.

9th level spells are also relatively rare, because it's hard to get that powerful without dying. It is indeed wildly powerful magic, but it's also largely off limits to even most spellcasters. I quotient be surprised if Redcloak turned out to be the most powerful mortal goblin ever.

[Kish]

Whoa, is Implosion really as broken as you guys are making it sound?
(<--- Not a D&D player)
It's a ninth-level spell. Same power tier as Wish, Miracle, "I speak the name of someone who was burned to ash and the ash was encased in lead and dropped into an active volcano somewhere I know not where, and they're restored to perfect health and appear in front of me," or, "Every spell other than mine in a 40-foot radius burst is dispelled with no roll, and every magical item in that area that isn't mine has to make a Will save or become nonmagical permanently."

[Jasdoif]

I guess that makes sense. On paper it sounds wild to me (and that Wail of the Banshee thing sounds positively insane), but I defer to your greater experience and knowledge.Something that isn't really well explained is that the entire tenor of the game shifts as it moves through the levels. At early levels, fighters can have a hard time hitting things while casters can run out of spells quickly; at late levels, fighters hitting things is practically a forgone conclusion as long magic hasn't wiped out anything they'd want to hit (or the fighters).

The closest parallel I can think of is Star Wars' portrayals over the years.
The original trilogy has the occasional blaster deflection against small groups and telekinesis
The prequel trilogy has larger groups and more acrobatics
(3D) The Clone Wars even more of that, to the point of it becoming routine, along with clearly preternatural jumps
(2D) Clone Wars has Yoda smashing capital ships together and Mace Windu single-handedly overwhelming an entire battle droid army
Despite the wild variance, these are all the same setting...as hard as that is to buy when you have Yoda present in all of them and the power level doesn't have any sort of relation to the timeline...but I digress. And I digress well!

I quotient be surprised if Redcloak turned out to be the most powerful mortal goblin ever.That's awfully divisive.

[Morty]

I guess that makes sense. On paper it sounds wild to me (and that Wail of the Banshee thing sounds positively insane), but I defer to your greater experience and knowledge.

It is pretty insane, but that's just how high-level D&D spellcasters work.

[Goblin_Priest]

The "solution" how Durkon beat Durkula. For me, didn't match the setup for the scene, and the explanation given (outside the comic) read like a "rules-lawyering" victory. Basically, kill Durkula with a buffer-overrun....

Emotionally, it was pretty nice, though.

Yea, none of the other stuff I perused here I had any issues with, but I was kinda of disappointed by this one.

1) These guys are going after an epic Lich, an epic-esque monster and a cleric with lvl 9 spell slots, plus minions, and even with proper preparations they can't handle this much lower CR encounter?

2) What, are they all rolling nat 1s on their will saves now?

3) Is vampiric dialogue no longer at the speed of thought?

4) Why is Belkar regaining consciousness? The brooch doesn't negate HP dmg.

5) So, they lost... but suddenly... they won?

I don't mind the Durkon overtake solution but I didn't really like how it was executed. It didn't seem to be in line with the lore we had been presented until then and what we would expect of the encounter. Felt too much Deus Ex Mechina to me.

I don't hate it, but I think that was my least favorite part of the story.

[Goblin_Priest]

Something that isn't really well explained is that the entire tenor of the game shifts as it moves through the levels. At early levels, fighters can have a hard time hitting things while casters can run out of spells quickly; at late levels, fighters hitting things is practically a forgone conclusion as long magic hasn't wiped out anything they'd want to hit (or the fighters).

The closest parallel I can think of is Star Wars' portrayals over the years.
The original trilogy has the occasional blaster deflection against small groups and telekinesis
The prequel trilogy has larger groups and more acrobatics
(3D) The Clone Wars even more of that, to the point of it becoming routine, along with clearly preternatural jumps
(2D) Clone Wars has Yoda smashing capital ships together and Mace Windu single-handedly overwhelming an entire battle droid army
Despite the wild variance, these are all the same setting...as hard as that is to buy when you have Yoda present in all of them and the power level doesn't have any sort of relation to the timeline...but I digress. And I digress well!
That's awfully divisive.

Power creep evolves with authorial timeline and not narrative timeline. ;)

[Jasdoif]

Power creep evolves with authorial timeline and not narrative timeline. ;)You'd think so; but (2D) Clone Wars was released between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith; and (3D) The Clone Wars was released (as several episodes reformatted as a movie, because someone who was wrong thought that was a good idea) three years after that.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Yea, none of the other stuff I perused here I had any issues with, but I was kinda of disappointed by this one.

1) These guys are going after an epic Lich, an epic-esque monster and a cleric with lvl 9 spell slots, plus minions, and even with proper preparations they can't handle this much lower CR encounter?

2) What, are they all rolling nat 1s on their will saves now?

3) Is vampiric dialogue no longer at the speed of thought?

4) Why is Belkar regaining consciousness? The brooch doesn't negate HP dmg.

5) So, they lost... but suddenly... they won?

I don't mind the Durkon overtake solution but I didn't really like how it was executed. It didn't seem to be in line with the lore we had been presented until then and what we would expect of the encounter. Felt too much Deus Ex Mechina to me.

I don't hate it, but I think that was my least favorite part of the story.

1) They know Xykon's spell list, and the spells Durkon*/his vampires could prepare are entirely variable so they could never totally prepare. Also Xykon is one caster whose favorite spell (Meteor Swarm) doesn't even kill Roy in one hit. Not to mention Redcloak, whose CL can be surpassed by V and have his spells countered.

2) Elan's an idiot so he's low-will, and so is Belkar. Haley only has a +5 on her level-scaling will save bonus as a rogue, with only decent mental ability scores. They don't have to roll a 1 to fail a DC <14 save.

3) Durkon*, since the fight was over, was devoting his attention to Durkon in his head, and because of the feelings of the memory he was already getting hit with the energies needed for Durkon* to become Durkon.

4) Belkar wasn't on 0 hit points. You can be on 0 hit points and still be conscious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html), 0 hit points and dying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), or you could just be knocked out without ever going near 0 hp, like when Haley used a sap on Grubwiggler (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0577.html). and at any number of hit points other than 0, damage that doesn't kill you instantly, like the protection from evil charm, has a chance of waking you up, and Scruffy did activate it.

5) Yep.

[Mandor]

Trigak dying suddenly, instead of returning for a long-savored revenge.

[Emanick]

Honestly, probably Xykon and Redcloak escaping from the Azure City throne room when they were so close to being defeated.

I know, I know, it was objectively good for the story. Obviously, we the audience are much better off as a result. But in the moment, I couldn't help but be so upset that Soon couldn't land that last couple of blows. He came SO. CLOSE!

[understatement]

Honestly, probably Xykon and Redcloak escaping from the Azure City throne room when they were so close to being defeated.

I know, I know, it was objectively good for the story. Obviously, we the audience are much better off as a result. But in the moment, I couldn't help but be so upset that Soon couldn't land that last couple of blows. He came SO. CLOSE!

That strip is immortal.

Equivalent of giving a kid candy and swiping it away at the last second.

[Aspheric]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who feels this way, but I didn't like that Hel turned out to be another Evil death goddess. I know this is in keeping with her depiction in Norse myth, but I thought it would have been more interesting if Hel wanted a seat at the Godsmoot because she realized the stuff about TDO and quiddities, and the need to parley with Redcloak. I think it would have provided a more interesting test to Durkon's faith, if he had to choose between the influence of the god whose traditions and beliefs he grew up with, or the one that understood his circumstances when he was thrown into a desperate situation.

If Hel was at least be Neutral, there could have been an interesting contrast with Malack's (and presumably also Nergal's) intentions. It also would have made his conversation with Malack an interesting bit of foreshadowing, especially the bit about "but no one worships her!" if Durkon was later given a legitimate reason to consider converting to a death goddess... but oh well.

[Mightymosy]

That strip is immortal.

Equivalent of giving a kid candy and swiping it away at the last second.

I didn't think for a second Xykon or Redcloak would die there, for some reason. To me it was obvious they would escape.

I did wonder whether O-Chul would manage to smash the phylactery later on, though. That scene held more tension for me.


I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who feels this way, but I didn't like that Hel turned out to be another Evil death goddess. I know this is in keeping with her depiction in Norse myth, but I thought it would have been more interesting if Hel wanted a seat at the Godsmoot because she realized the stuff about TDO and quiddities, and the need to parley with Redcloak. I think it would have provided a more interesting test to Durkon's faith, if he had to choose between the influence of the god whose traditions and beliefs he grew up with, or the one that understood his circumstances when he was thrown into a desperate situation.

If Hel was at least be Neutral, there could have been an interesting contrast with Malack's (and presumably also Nergal's) intentions. It also would have made his conversation with Malack an interesting bit of foreshadowing, especially the bit about "but no one worships her!" if Durkon was later given a legitimate reason to consider converting to a death goddess... but oh well.

Hey, good one! That would have been an awesome idea!

[Rrmcklin]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who feels this way, but I didn't like that Hel turned out to be another Evil death goddess. I know this is in keeping with her depiction in Norse myth, but I thought it would have been more interesting if Hel wanted a seat at the Godsmoot because she realized the stuff about TDO and quiddities, and the need to parley with Redcloak. I think it would have provided a more interesting test to Durkon's faith, if he had to choose between the influence of the god whose traditions and beliefs he grew up with, or the one that understood his circumstances when he was thrown into a desperate situation.

If Hel was at least be Neutral, there could have been an interesting contrast with Malack's (and presumably also Nergal's) intentions. It also would have made his conversation with Malack an interesting bit of foreshadowing, especially the bit about "but no one worships her!" if Durkon was later given a legitimate reason to consider converting to a death goddess... but oh well.

Fair opinion, but I don't see how it really counts as a plot twist. Hel was pretty openly presented as evil from her first appearance. There's no twist involved.

Also kind of weird since we only found out about the quiddity stuff fairly recently, but the Hel and vampire stuff started like six years ago.


I didn't think for a second Xykon or Redcloak would die there, for some reason. To me it was obvious they would escape.

...Of course it was obvious they would escape, no one would reasonably think otherwise. I'm pretty sure the point being made was they just felt bad for Soon (and the others) even though they obviously understood things couldn't go any other way.

[Darth Paul]

Hated, hated, hated the twist at the end of BRitF; finding out that Durkon was actually Durkon* (or Durkon imprisoned inside Greg, if you want to look at it that way). Finding out that Stickworld vampires work the same way as they do in Buffy... a demon expels your soul but has your memories.

[factotum]

Hated, hated, hated the twist at the end of BRitF; finding out that Durkon was actually Durkon* (or Durkon imprisoned inside Greg, if you want to look at it that way). Finding out that Stickworld vampires work the same way as they do in Buffy... a demon expels your soul but has your memories.

I have to agree. The idea of a vampire who is genuinely the original person in every way, but warped by their hunger for blood into doing evil, is far more interesting to me than "demon takes possession of corpse".

[Joerg]

I also agree. I thought it would be a great way to have character development for Durkon, only to find that the unchanged Durkon is imprisoned inside.

Now it's OK because Durkon actively defeated the vampire and because we saw his character development before he joined the Order, but I would still have preferred a different way. Still hoping he'll get more development through Hilgya and Kudzu.

[Fyraltari]

I have to agree. The idea of a vampire who is genuinely the original person in every way, but warped by their hunger for blood into doing evil, is far more interesting to me than "demon takes possession of corpse".

I get what' you are saying, but it is not like the "demon" was a complete stranger since it turned out it was still basically Durkon but without the good bits.

[RatElemental]

Mine would probably be the fact that Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, who was obviously always meant to be the 7th member of the order and lead them to the main plot, died in some random unimportant cave in the middle of nowhere in his introductory strip and then we spiraled off into some stupid sidequest for over 1000 strips. I don't know why Rich changed his plans for the character midway through writing the strip, but the signs are obviously there.

[Vinyadan]

Hated, hated, hated the twist at the end of BRitF; finding out that Durkon was actually Durkon* (or Durkon imprisoned inside Greg, if you want to look at it that way). Finding out that Stickworld vampires work the same way as they do in Buffy... a demon expels your soul but has your memories.

I couldn't imagine Edwarkon being the same person as Durkon, for the same reason as Belkar: that's too much of a change, too fast. It's one thing to have magic that hijacks someone and essentially forms a commanding or distorting overlay over his mind, but to have a spell/spell-like ability/"whatever vampirism is" that actually changes your alignment like that looks impossible without destroying the concept of character development.

[Peelee]

Mine would probably be the fact that Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, who was obviously always meant to be the 7th member of the order and lead them to the main plot, died in some random unimportant cave in the middle of nowhere in his introductory strip and then we spiraled off into some stupid sidequest for over 1000 strips. I don't know why Rich changed his plans for the character midway through writing the strip, but the signs are obviously there.

Best answer.

[terodil]

I couldn't imagine Edwarkon being the same person as Durkon, for the same reason as Belkar: that's too much of a change, too fast. It's one thing to have magic that hijacks someone and essentially forms a commanding or distorting overlay over his mind, but to have a spell/spell-like ability/"whatever vampirism is" that actually changes your alignment like that looks impossible without destroying the concept of character development.
I agree. Additionally, from a story perspective, it would seem somewhat detrimental to group dynamics and narrative potential to remove the goodest/lawfullest person, unless there's another shakeup (Hilgya suddenly seeing the light and turning LG... yeah...).

Also, from my very own personal perspective, I would not have liked another angsty existentialist introspection story. I don't know but I have really had enough stories of corruption and moral decay lately. Yeah yeah, I know Rich's stance on escapism, the state of the world etc. etc., but I have never shared his authorial opinion on a few things, the purpose of storytelling being one of them, and the market really is saturated with this subject matter imo.

[hroþila]

I think "the vampire is an overriding demon" might be a less commonly used trope than "the vampire starts off as a fundamentally decent human being struggling to keep their animalistic vampiric impulses in check and agonizing over their blood thirst" at this point. In that sense I found it interesting, although I admit I was looking forward to seeing how Durkon in particular dealt with the latter scenario.

[Fyraltari]

I think "the vampire is an overriding demon" might be a less commonly used trope than "the vampire starts off as a fundamentally decent human being struggling to keep their animalistic vampiric impulses in check and agonizing over their blood thirst" at this point. In that sense I found it interesting, although I admit I was looking forward to seeing how Durkon in particular dealt with the latter scenario.

Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0958.html)? I mean, the whole "angst over need to drink human blood" is less powerful when that translates to "give your friend less than a minute of unpleasantness".

[hroþila]

Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0958.html)? I mean, the whole "angst over need to drink human blood" is less powerful when that translates to "give your friend less than a minute of unpleasantness".
I'm talking in general here, but even with Restoration there would have been ways to make that blood thirst a factor even in OotS. For example, if Durkon felt the urge to drink someone dry, or if he couldn't resist drinking from a particularly tasty civilian or what have you.

[Ruck]

Yeah I was kind of confused about where all that came from with Andi. It seemed out of left field and like an extra villain was needed.

When things seem to come out of nowhere in this story, I recommend re-reading them and looking for the foreshadowing. Andi's discontent with Bandana is in evidence as early as Tinkertown, if not sooner.


3) Is vampiric dialogue no longer at the speed of thought?

I don't actually think it ever was. The vampire can lie to Durkon, you know.

[hroþila]

When things seem to come out of nowhere in this story, I recommend re-reading them and looking for the foreshadowing. Andi's discontent with Bandana is in evidence as early as Tinkertown, if not sooner.
What wasn't shown until some time later was that her discontent was completely irrational. That's what we didn't like, not that she was an antagonist.

[Ruck]

What wasn't shown until some time later was that her discontent was completely irrational. That's what we didn't like, not that she was an antagonist.

Ah, I see. That said, I don't think there's a rational basis for Andi's intentional disrespect of Bandana as seen in Tinkertown. Also, I think what we do see of Bandana as a captain, she's good enough at the job that any problems with her leadership are sort of by definition irrational.

[Resileaf]

I don't actually think it ever was. The vampire can lie to Durkon, you know.

Plus there are times when you think slower than other times.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

People seem to think that the negative energy spirits are demons (even the twitter-people when the comic where it was revealed Durkon learned Accelerate Vampirism instead of Protection From Sunlight) possessing dwarves' bodies but a Vampire is something totally different: It's you, but it's slowly absorbing all your emotions and memories. (It's also in-universe that the gods don't have control over fiends, their clerics can only summon them, Hel would have no way of a) creating a demon and b) summoning a demon that has no memories but Durkon's worst to somehow possess his body)

And for narrative sense, if that was REALLY Durkon, then the entirety of this book would never happen- They would just go to the pole (because the godsmoot only happened because it was Durkon*), completely ignoring that because the "No" vote won without Durkon* and fight Xykon; adventure over. And this was character development for Durkon- or rather, character development of his adopted quasi-family, which is pretty much what all his memories before leaving dwarven lands are about :smalltongue: and if it wasn't Durkon, there was no way he'd make the order stop at the temple in Firmament to grab a new lightning hammer and say hi to Thor who tells him about all the cosmic madness that's been going on- He HAD to be possessed and taken to the Godsmoot against his will in order to have this story go the way The Giant wanted.

[hroþila]

I don't think anyone is using "demon" in a D&D sense, but in a more general, "evil spirit that comes from the outside to possess you" sense. After all, we're not discussing just D&D here.

[factotum]

I don't think anyone is using "demon" in a D&D sense, but in a more general, "evil spirit that comes from the outside to possess you" sense. After all, we're not discussing just D&D here.

Exactly. Even if the evil spirit inserted into Durkula was based on Durkon, it was not him, or even a good copy of him, because it was limited to Durkon at his worst and never really developed beyond that until the massive memory dump at the end.

[Kish]

I, meanwhile, think Hel's line about "your dark spirit was born in my hall" is vastly overplayed and Greg no more "came from the outside" than Durkon himself did.

I recognize that in the absence of a probably-not-forthcoming clarification from Rich, I cannot prove that it would be equally accurate for Thor or Odin to say to Durkon "Your bright spirit was born in my hall," but in the absence of disproof, I believe it.

[Aveline]

I, meanwhile, think Hel's line about "your dark spirit was born in my hall" is vastly overplayed and Greg no more "came from the outside" than Durkon himself did.

I recognize that in the absence of a probably-not-forthcoming clarification from Rich, I cannot prove that it would be equally accurate for Thor or Odin to say to Durkon "Your bright spirit was born in my hall," but in the absence of disproof, I believe it.

Based on this tweet (mobile link) (https://mobile.twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963533605002797056?p=v), Hel had some input in Greg's creation. This would have been her only opportunity to instruct him to impersonate Durkon (although that's kind of the default option anyway). I presume she got dibs on Durkon's soul because of Loki's bet, not because Durkon's lowest moment included him wishing Hel upon the Church of Thor. (edit: I mean Hel got dibs on Durkon's vampire. Thor got his soul proper, obviously.)

Oversold, maybe a little - Durkon's memories shaped Greg throughout his entire existence - but I do think Hel's claim is basically accurate with respect to Greg's initial formation.

[Peelee]

Based on this tweet (mobile link) (https://mobile.twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963533605002797056?p=v), Hel had some input in Greg's creation. This would have been her only opportunity to instruct him to impersonate Durkon (although that's kind of the default option anyway). I presume she got dibs on Durkon's soul because of Loki's bet, not because Durkon's lowest moment included him wishing Hel upon the Church of Thor. (edit: I mean Hel got dibs on Durkon's vampire. Thor got his soul proper, obviously.)

Close, but not quite.

Hel does not have rightful dominion over Durkon's soul as part of her normal assignment of dishonored souls, however, because Durkon did in fact die in battle. She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires. The vampirization process basically jammed up the normal disposition of Durkon's soul by trapping it inside the undead body. Where Durkon's actual soul ends up will not be determined until/unless it is freed. It's a like a naturally occurring Trap the Soul spell.

[Darth Paul]

People seem to think that the negative energy spirits are demons (even the twitter-people when the comic where it was revealed Durkon learned Accelerate Vampirism instead of Protection From Sunlight) possessing dwarves' bodies but a Vampire is something totally different: It's you, but it's slowly absorbing all your emotions and memories. (It's also in-universe that the gods don't have control over fiends, their clerics can only summon them, Hel would have no way of a) creating a demon and b) summoning a demon that has no memories but Durkon's worst to somehow possess his body)


This is understood now, but at the time? It was totally a demon possessing Durkon.

For comparison's sake, much as I hate to, I'll invoke The Vampire Diaries, which I have seen only because I have a teenage daughter and Netflix. Those vampires, teenage and angsty as they are, at least are their own selves, driven by bloodlust and either giving in to it or else fighting their urges and masquerading as normal people. (In fact, it's a sort of Vampire: The Masquerade- The TV Series.) At least, that's my understanding. I could be wrong- I usually read a book while it's on.


Ah, I see. That said, I don't think there's a rational basis for Andi's intentional disrespect of Bandana as seen in Tinkertown. Also, I think what we do see of Bandana as a captain, she's good enough at the job that any problems with her leadership are sort of by definition irrational.

Is jealousy ever rational? A decent share of Andi's problem was jealousy over Bandana getting the command when Andi felt she should be next in line for it IIRC.


Plus there are times when you think slower than other times.

Errmmmmm........... yeah...

[Aveline]

Close, but not quite.

Well that clarifies things. I think this passage is a bit more salient:


There is absolutely zero difference between Malack and Durkon's vampirizations, with the sole exception that Hel made the spirit sitting in Durkon's head while Nergal made the one that was sitting in Malack's.

Meaning Hel "made" Greg in some capacity. And also raising metaphysical questions about what alignments a god of death can possibly have, and how vampirism could work in the absence of such a god... but that's a different topic.

[Kish]

Oversold, maybe a little - Durkon's memories shaped Greg throughout his entire existence - but I do think Hel's claim is basically accurate with respect to Greg's initial formation.
Once again, my disagreement is with the implication that it would be less accurate if Thor or Odin told Durkon "Of course you're determined to save the world. Your bright spirit was born in my hall."

[Fyraltari]

Once again, my disagreement is with the implication that it would be less accurate if Thor or Odin told Durkon "Of course you're determined to save the world. Your bright spirit was born in my hall."

I think the disappointment here, was that the vampire wasn't Durkon changed by vampirism but a distinct entity with Durkon's mind untouched by the transformation. Even though the seond entity was of Durkon, it wasn't Durkon.

[Ruck]

Is jealousy ever rational? A decent share of Andi's problem was jealousy over Bandana getting the command when Andi felt she should be next in line for it IIRC.

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of my point; I don't think Andi's dislike of Captain Bandana was ever rational, even if she may have seemed such earlier on.

[Resileaf]

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of my point; I don't think Andi's dislike of Captain Bandana was ever rational, even if she may have seemed such earlier on.

Well, humans often have irrational behaviour. Irrationality combined with stress makes people do really dumb things. Why should humans in a stick figure comic strip be any different?

[Furey]

Vaarsuvius "four words" were disappointing dramatically.

In a world with the Sending spell, I think a lot more people would be using that spell a lot more often. For example, the Sapphire Guard would have been using Sending when their palantir outposts didn't check in on schedule. And any large city such as Azure City or Cliffport would have envoys posted near the Oracle of Sunken Valley and would get several questions per day answered.

Haley would have asked V to send a message to her father years ago. V would also be talking to their family occasionally, before Inky filed for divorce, that is.

And we have to retcon Durkon's reaction to his exile because he's been talking to his mother every week for years, and he could have talked to many other dwarves as well!

The Giant has said that characters having access to Teleport and True Resurrection would mess up the story. Maybe he sees Sending in the same category? Even if Sending doesn't damage stories, it would at least have a profound impact on world building.

[Peelee]

In a world with the Sending spell, I think a lot more people would be using that spell a lot more often. For example, the Sapphire Guard would have been using Sending when their palantir outposts didn't check in on schedule. And any large city such as Azure City or Cliffport would have envoys posted near the Oracle of Sunken Valley and would get several questions per day answered.


Sending
Evocation
Level:Clr 4,*Sor/Wiz*5

That's a 7th level Cleric or 9th level Wizard. High level characters (or even mid level) aren't as common as you think, even in large cities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html).

[hroþila]

V would also be talking to their family occasionally, before Inky filed for divorce, that is.
V was practically ignoring Inky when they were living together.

[Ruck]

Well, humans often have irrational behaviour. Irrationality combined with stress makes people do really dumb things. Why should humans in a stick figure comic strip be any different?

I never said they shouldn't?

[Jasdoif]

I think the disappointment here, was that the vampire wasn't Durkon changed by vampirism but a distinct entity with Durkon's mind untouched by the transformation. Even though the seond entity was of Durkon, it wasn't Durkon.HPoH was Durkon enough for the story's purpose. That's the whole reason Durkon's plan worked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html).

While I can understand the general disappointment, I can also see the intent: This was the classic "good side and evil side" situation reframed as an interpersonal conflict; making it more interesting to convey in a comic strip, allowing HPoH to act as "abruptly evil Durkon" would, leaves "good Durkon" is position to deal with "evil Durkon" without resorting to typical "split personality" approaches, and it doesn't call for the usual post-unification mental reconciliation since they were distinct minds in the first place.

Basically, it saved us from the book having long stretches of strips like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html) these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html).

[Aveline]

Once again, my disagreement is with the implication that it would be less accurate if Thor or Odin told Durkon "Of course you're determined to save the world. Your bright spirit was born in my hall."

I think it would be less accurate. No god had any direct involvement in Durkon's birth, to the best of my knowledge. Compare that with the direct quote from Rich that "Hel made the spirit sitting in Durkon's head". Thor's influence consists of granting spells and Odin's influence consists of issuing a prophecy (well, until they met up in the afterlife, at least). It's being a negative energy spirit rather than a mortal that makes room for Greg to have come straight from Hel. Durkon just came from mortals.

[Kish]

If I was confident you were expressing disagreement with my perspective rather than simply not getting what it is, I would shrug and move on.

As it is, I am shrugging and moving on anyway because I can't think of any other way to express it.

[Aveline]

It's entirely possible I don't understand what you're getting at.

Are you saying that Thor and Odin's meddling in Durkon's life constitutes the same degree of influence as Hel had over Greg? We could shrug and disagree about that.

[Aspheric]

Fair opinion, but I don't see how it really counts as a plot twist. Hel was pretty openly presented as evil from her first appearance. There's no twist involved.

Also kind of weird since we only found out about the quiddity stuff fairly recently, but the Hel and vampire stuff started like six years ago.

I admit it's not really a plot twist, but that scene made a firm point that Hel is capital-E Evil, when there was room for her to be at least Neutral in her earlier scenes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all those scenes consisted mostly of comedic stingers with Thor, which I wasn't reading as her being Evil, just stingy about the terms of their bet. Obviously, that may be different in hindsight, but that's what I was thinking at the time.

Hel and the vampire plot may have started that long ago (has it really been six years ago? Geez...), but it doesn't mean she wouldn't know about TDO having a McGuffin quiddity. If anything it makes more sense for her to want TDO to come back to the table with all the other gods and pantheons, since she's in a somewhat similar position herself; and parleying with an evil god strikes me far more of "reach-across-the-aisle" Neutral approach than what Thor was okay with, but obviously the comic took a different approach. I'm okay with how things turned out, but I do think this would have been more interesting, at least to me.

[Kish]

It's entirely possible I don't understand what you're getting at.

Are you saying that Thor and Odin's meddling in Durkon's life constitutes the same degree of influence as Hel had over Greg?
No. I am saying nothing about the prophecy; that's all you. Let me try putting it the other way around.

I think your statement: "Durkon just came from mortals." is no more accurate than would be the statement, "Greg just came from Malack." Both had a body and a soul. Both had the same body. Greg's soul was created by Hel, and Durkon's soul was created by...almost certainly Odin.

[SilverCacaobean]

Honestly, probably Xykon and Redcloak escaping from the Azure City throne room when they were so close to being defeated.

I know, I know, it was objectively good for the story. Obviously, we the audience are much better off as a result. But in the moment, I couldn't help but be so upset that Soon couldn't land that last couple of blows. He came SO. CLOSE!

Well, he couldn't possibly kill Team Evil at that point in the story.
It would have been...
TOO SOON! AAAAAARGHBLBLBLBllll


I have to agree. The idea of a vampire who is genuinely the original person in every way, but warped by their hunger for blood into doing evil, is far more interesting to me than "demon takes possession of corpse".

Interesting. It's kind of the opposite for me. I'd actually never encountered that "demon takes possession of corpse" idea before (haven't watched Buffy). I think I've seen some people claim that that's how it's supposed to work in d&d, by the way, not that that really matters. Anyway, I thought that it was a good idea. I liked it even more when Greg revealed that he's a spirit that specifically fills the hole in Durkon's heart. It's the only kind of enemy one can literally defeat with introspection. Durkon faced his own demons, not some random demon.

He found out why he is the way he is, what made him who he is, and with that knowledge plotted to turn the vampire into himself. He really turned undead this time. Dayam, I'm on a roll today. Whooo!!
Was the vampire's defeat a bit mushy? Sure, but a bit of mushiness from time to time doesn't hurt.

I also agree with what Jasdoif said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23888618&postcount=107).


Mine would probably be the fact that Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, who was obviously always meant to be the 7th member of the order and lead them to the main plot, died in some random unimportant cave in the middle of nowhere in his introductory strip and then we spiraled off into some stupid sidequest for over 1000 strips. I don't know why Rich changed his plans for the character midway through writing the strip, but the signs are obviously there.

Common amateur writer mistake. He wanted to up the tension and us to think anyone could die at any point so he went and killed his best character.


Anyway, to answer the OP, I was disappointed by what Rich did with Bozzok and Crystal (Not sure it counts as a plot twist, though). I really liked the flesh golem idea but it didn't feel to me that Tinkertown was the time or place for it. At least not to end it. I think it's mostly because of Bozzok. He never developed into a compelling character for me. When he dies and the other guy tells him "You never were as smart as you thought you were" it rings too true. I mean it was foreshadowed that he was tracking her down, but I was hoping for something more ambitious than what he did with that information that would highlight his inflated idea about himself in a more satisfying way.

I'd like it more if, for example, Bozzok while spying on Haley for revenge accidentally learned (or half-understood) important information, like the gate stuff. He would then use Crystal (who let's not forget, is a golem that can pose a threat to people Haley's level) and that knowledge to elevate himself to a position of power in some international crime syndicate. Most people there don't like him and some other powerful people whose toes he stepped on as he elevated himself aren't convinced by his supposed great intelligence that landed him this info, so they're waiting for him to make one misstep to dispose of him. Meanwhile, there's constant pressure on him to deliver what he promised; The WORLD! There's a lot of ways this setup could end with him dying horribly in a way that demonstrates that he wasn't as smart as he thought he was, without him being the biggest crime boss of some city far away who did something as ill-conceived as try to randomly assassinate Haley in the middle of some other city for humiliating him (a thing that Belkar did more thoroughly). He'd still be a pathetic failure, but with more power in his hands he'd have potential to fail even more spectacularly, too!

This would give a) more time to build Crystal and Bozzok's relationship, b) more time to build Bozzok, because let's face it, he sucks but he doesn't suck in a satisfying way, c) more Crystal golem, d)* another player with their eyes on the gates.

Adding an international crime syndicate as players who try to control the gates would also connect Haley's personal arc to the main plot. I kind of wanted that to happen. Not that particular thing, just the connection. I mean, Elan's arc ended with the vector legion learning about the gates and having a rift in their territory (and I doubt they will do nothing with that knowledge), Durkon's with a mission by his God, a revelation about the huge amount of dead worlds and divine quiddities and an implication that he was specifically chosen by Odin for this mission, V's with the revelation of the world in the rift and the revelation of the IFCC as major players, Roy's basically is the main plot... while Haley's culminated in a speed bump.

One big problem with all that is that thieves in general and Bozzok in particular feel really not threatening at all after what Belkar did to them. Why Bozzok doesn't hold a grudge against him, I have no idea either. He definitely seems the type. I think they should have at least targeted both Belkar and Haley and first kicked Belkar's ass to re-establish themselves as threats.

*Of course, the general plot has been planned long ago, and if another player isn't part of the plan, then Rich can't shove one there. Still, I think a lot of what I wrote or something better could have been done with Bozzok, Crystal and Haley without wasting too many strips.

In summary, Crystal => crazed murderous flesh golem = good direction for the character, Bozzok => felt even weaker and less threatening this time 'round, and my complaint is that I wanted Rich to do more with them.

So, come to think of it, in the end the plot twist I don't like is Belkar destroying the entire thieves guild single-handedly without breaking a sweat. It kind of highjacks Haley's story and leaves her with what feel like ineffectual foes.

...This ended up way way way bigger than I was planning.

[CriticalFailure]

I mean, Andi not liking Bandana was clear early on but there seemed to be a swing from "disgruntled but sane employee" to "completely irrational, unreasonable, and incompetent one every level" pretty quickly. I don't know, maybe I missed something. It seems like the female antagonists all fall into the "Crazy B*tch" trope anyways (Sabine being the exception, and if Oona ends up being a proper antagonist she will also be) so maybe I should've expected it.

I like the theory that Redcloak is the most powerful mortal goblinoid ever. I kind of want to see him make it to epic levels just because I doubt a goblin ever has before and it would be cool.

[Lvl45DM!]

I mean, Andi not liking Bandana was clear early on but there seemed to be a swing from "disgruntled but sane employee" to "completely irrational, unreasonable, and incompetent one every level" pretty quickly. I don't know, maybe I missed something. It seems like the female antagonists all fall into the "Crazy B*tch" trope anyways (Sabine being the exception, and if Oona ends up being a proper antagonist she will also be) so maybe I should've expected it.

I like the theory that Redcloak is the most powerful mortal goblinoid ever. I kind of want to see him make it to epic levels just because I doubt a goblin ever has before and it would be cool.

Laurin wasnt crazy either.

I think the thing you're missing is "watched 3 of her co-workers get cut in half while giants try to crash your skyship" and she was a competent engineer, seeing as with like, 2 rounds of work she boosted the engine out put of a quasi magical skyship

[Rrmcklin]

I mean, Andi not liking Bandana was clear early on but there seemed to be a swing from "disgruntled but sane employee" to "completely irrational, unreasonable, and incompetent one every level" pretty quickly. I don't know, maybe I missed something. It seems like the female antagonists all fall into the "Crazy B*tch" trope anyways (Sabine being the exception, and if Oona ends up being a proper antagonist she will also be) so maybe I should've expected it.

I like the theory that Redcloak is the most powerful mortal goblinoid ever. I kind of want to see him make it to epic levels just because I doubt a goblin ever has before and it would be cool.


Laurin wasnt crazy either.

I think the thing you're missing is "watched 3 of her co-workers get cut in half while giants try to crash your skyship" and she was a competent engineer, seeing as with like, 2 rounds of work she boosted the engine out put of a quasi magical skyship

I agree with Lv145DM! here. Even Andi was surprised when she first hit Bandana and was clearly scrambling from that point afterwards. The reason things escalated so suddenly with her was pretty apparent.

[Aveline]

No. I am saying nothing about the prophecy; that's all you. Let me try putting it the other way around.

I think your statement: "Durkon just came from mortals." is no more accurate than would be the statement, "Greg just came from Malack." Both had a body and a soul. Both had the same body. Greg's soul was created by Hel, and Durkon's soul was created by...almost certainly Odin.

Oh, okay. I get it now.

The idea of Durkon's soul being created by anyone in particular is what was not obvious to me. I don't see how to draw that conclusion.

[Riftwolf]

Laurin wasnt crazy either.

I think the thing you're missing is "watched 3 of her co-workers get cut in half while giants try to crash your skyship" and she was a competent engineer, seeing as with like, 2 rounds of work she boosted the engine out put of a quasi magical skyship

It was made clear Andi was a competent engineer, but couldn't keep a calm head in a crisis, flailed when she assumed command, and in the end did more damage to her ship than the giants did.
Storywise it provided a subplot for the giant fight which stopped it being a random encounter kerb-stomp (which would've made the filler-cry brigade explode*), and provided a lasting consequence for the Order (I doubt the Mechane is in any shape to carry on north, so they might be forced to take alternate travel methods)
There are points between 'super competent' and 'totally useless'.

*not that the filler-cryers didn't, at the time, explode. They're like sodium elementals in a squirtgun fight.

[Myta]

The reveal of Hels plan.

After all that buildup with Hel and Greg the reveal:

Behold, my evil masterplan ist to: cast a vote!
(in an election not planned or initiated by me in which I had the right to vote anyway. Also my plan requires a tie between the rest of the votes that I actually could not influence and had a probability of about 18.5% of occuring. And it depends on very large set of rules also not designed by me that you dont know about so far, that very specifically allows me to do what I want do to and forbids most of the things to stop me)

was quite underwhelming.

[Goblin_Priest]

The reveal of Hels plan.

After all that buildup with Hel and Greg the reveal:

Behold, my evil masterplan ist to: cast a vote!
(in an election not planned or initiated by me in which I had the right to vote anyway. Also my plan requires a tie between the rest of the votes that I actually could not influence and had a probability of about 18.5% of occuring. And it depends on very large set of rules also not designed by me that you dont know about so far, that very specifically allows me to do what I want do to and forbids most of the things to stop me)

was quite underwhelming.

When you put it that way... PREQUELS!

That said there wasn't supposed to be a tie, one of the deities bailed on her.

Also, I never had issues with politics being plot points. :P

[Peelee]

The reveal of Hels plan.

After all that buildup with Hel and Greg the reveal:

Behold, my evil masterplan ist to: cast a vote!
(in an election not planned or initiated by me in which I had the right to vote anyway.

But not the ability.

[Myta]

She required a tie with her vote, not counting the lesser deities.
So one pantheon needs to vote yes, one pantheon needs to vote no, and from her pantheon there need to be exactly 9 votes for no. Otherwise her whole plan would have had zero influence on the outcome.

I also dont dislike politics als plot points. The politics in the plotlines about Tarquin and Shojo were great. Tarquin is probably my favourite arc of whole oots.
I just dislike this specific case here.

[Peelee]

She required a tie with her vote, not counting the lesser deities.
So one pantheon needs to vote yes, one pantheon needs to vote no, and from her pantheon there need to be exactly 9 votes for no. Otherwise her whole plan would have had zero influence on the outcome.

IIRC, the Giant said she didn't get really lucky with her plan, but rather she formulated her plan based on how she calculated the vote would go.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, it seems like they have this vote every time a world goes under so I think every god could have listed the Yes/No vote with their eyes closed the day it was called.

[Riftwolf]

Another way to look at it is 'we didn't see what Hel's backup plan for a majority against the world's destruction was, because it was unnecessary'. If it had gone with South/West agreeing to save the world, Durkon* would've kept his mouth shut at the Godsmoot and quietly implemented a plan (maybe making his own bid to destroy Kraagors Gate, or exacerbating the rifts in West/South to force the Pantheons to reconsider) with his vampire henchmen.
Subverting Dvalins vote is already a plan b; Hermods vote was meant to be the clincher. No reason to believe Hel didn't have a bunch of other plan b's in waiting.

[Kish]

Another way to look at it is 'we didn't see what Hel's backup plan for a majority against the world's destruction was, because it was unnecessary'. If it had gone with South/West agreeing to save the world, Durkon* would've kept his mouth shut at the Godsmoot and quietly implemented a plan (maybe making his own bid to destroy Kraagors Gate, or exacerbating the rifts in West/South to force the Pantheons to reconsider) with his vampire henchmen.
Subverting Dvalins vote is already a plan b; Hermods vote was meant to be the clincher. No reason to believe Hel didn't have a bunch of other plan b's in waiting.
And for that matter, destroying all the vampires and removing her ability to directly affect the plot won't mean she loses; she'll still win if the gods destroy the world later in response to Xykon and Redcloak's actions.

This is the answer to Roy's concern that he might be wrong to keep trying to save the world, at the Godsmoot: why he must not give up.

[Jasdoif]

IIRC, the Giant said she didn't get really lucky with her plan, but rather she formulated her plan based on how she calculated the vote would go.YDRC. Whether "D" stands for "Do" or "Did" is an exercise for the reader.

As was pointed out in #998, the gods have held this exact vote before, during the Order of the Scribble's day. Between that and knowledge of their personalities and priorities, it is not unreasonable that a hyper-intelligent being would be able to count votes ahead of time. Maybe there were one or two that were uncertain, but that's why she had Durkon wait until it was over.

[RatElemental]

No. I am saying nothing about the prophecy; that's all you. Let me try putting it the other way around.

I think your statement: "Durkon just came from mortals." is no more accurate than would be the statement, "Greg just came from Malack." Both had a body and a soul. Both had the same body. Greg's soul was created by Hel, and Durkon's soul was created by...almost certainly Odin.

I would like some backing for the bolded bit. To my knowledge neither D&D nor OotS covers where exactly the souls of 'normal' mortals come from. For all we know they could just form naturally in the positive energy plane or get stamped out as a blank template by each pantheon's god of birth/fertility to be shaped entirely by their upbringing.

[Rrmcklin]

I would like some backing for the bolded bit. To my knowledge neither D&D nor OotS covers where exactly the souls of 'normal' mortals come from. For all we know they could just form naturally in the positive energy plane or get stamped out as a blank template by each pantheon's god of birth/fertility to be shaped entirely by their upbringing.

The mortals are specifically created by the gods, being three quiddity beings and all. Presumably that also includes their souls, because why wouldn't it? Whether one god specifically makes them or it's a team effort doesn't matter much for Kish's ultimate point. At least, I don't think it does, if I'm reading them correctly.

[Aveline]

The mortals are specifically created by the gods, being three quiddity beings and all. Presumably that also includes their souls, because why wouldn't it?

In my reading, a soul occurs as naturally as a body, as if there were some sort of soul mitosis going on. Three-quiddity mortals propagate in order to generate the souls that the gods need but can't directly make by themselves. It is only in a very abstract sense that Durkon or his soul was created by the gods.

As to Kish's overall point, well, clearly I am just confused. I feel like the Monster in the Dark going "Gate? What gate?" (My next guess is that he means to say Hel's initial influence over Greg's mentality wasn't as significant as Hel makes it out to be. That's a matter of interpretation and, more importantly, only my confused guess.)

[Peelee]

Phone battery is low, not gonna bother with the links. I may format it better when I get to a charger or full computer. Building mine.
Formatted. Also, I have no buildings. Bolding is mine, though.


So if I am reading this right (if even only vaguely right) is that the Gods created the world, souls etc using there own power.
That the destruction of souls places that power beyond use, where converting a soul to your cause provides you with that power.

So from a betting perspective the gods are betting that they can convert more souls to there cause than they lose - and so have a net gain, i.e mortals are nothing but poker chips to them

Yes, exactly. Though I would add that the process of being born and living a life increases the power available in the soul. So it's less like poker (where everyone starts with a fixed amount of cash and then they compete to trade it around), and more like the stock market (where everyone competes to pick the stocks that will grow the most before being cashed out).

[Aspheric]

I feel like Rich said somewhere that one of Hel's obligations has to do with making vampire souls, or something to that effect. Given what we know of Odin and Thor's positions within the pantheon, I think it's more likely that if any of the Norse gods created Durkon's soul, it would likely be Frigg or Freya. They're the Earth and Fertility goddesses, after all.

Nitpicking aside, I agree with Kish's point.

[Peelee]

I feel like Rich said somewhere that one of Hel's obligations has to do with making vampire souls, or something to that effect.

Yes, I posted it earlier, but for the benefit of having both on one page....

Hel does not have rightful dominion over Durkon's soul as part of her normal assignment of dishonored souls, however, because Durkon did in fact die in battle. She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires. The vampirization process basically jammed up the normal disposition of Durkon's soul by trapping it inside the undead body. Where Durkon's actual soul ends up will not be determined until/unless it is freed. It's a like a naturally occurring Trap the Soul spell.

[Darth Paul]

Phone battery is low, not gonna bother with the links. I may format it better when I get to a charger or full computer. Building mine.
Formatted. Also, I have no buildings. Bolding is mine, though.

Well, let's build you some! The ninjas have been getting restless, I need a project to keep them busy or they might start plotting to overthrow me. (Actually, they do that all the time anyway, it's the sign of a good ninja.)

[Peelee]

Well, let's build you some!

I prefer to just take what's already there. I could use the Chrysler Building, I do very much like art deco architecture...

[Darth Paul]

I prefer to just take what's already there. I could use the Chrysler Building, I do very much like art deco architecture...

I'm not too keen on the idea of conquering Chrysler, just to get a building... The ninjas like the idea, though.

[Peelee]

I'm not too keen on the idea of conquering Chrysler, just to get a building...

Just make sure you Dodge. *kick*. Bonus points if you get the reference.

[Darth Paul]

Just make sure you Dodge.

Will we have to Ford many streams or rivers? Maybe on our way to Plymouth?

[Mightymosy]

Ah, I see. That said, I don't think there's a rational basis for Andi's intentional disrespect of Bandana as seen in Tinkertown. Also, I think what we do see of Bandana as a captain, she's good enough at the job that any problems with her leadership are sort of by definition irrational.
Just so that we are clear:
Do you think that Bandana was already the perfect captain at the start of her story, and that she did not learn any leadership lesson in this story?

[Ruck]

Just so that we are clear:
Do you think that Bandana was already the perfect captain at the start of her story, and that she did not learn any leadership lesson in this story?

Don't ask me questions where you put words in my mouth.

[Jannoire]

Will we have to Ford many streams or rivers? Maybe on our way to Plymouth?

Leeky Windstaff would be furious at your Audicity to change and oppress nature

[AstralFire]

The ones that most disappointed me are related to hyper-derailing topics. I'll leave it at: I'm not rabid as the most vocal detractors, but I think things could have been handled better on a few fronts with them.

Outside of those?

How Durkon beats the Vampire. Required the Order to fail in a scenario that was very unlikely for them to fail, the revelation about Hurak and the prophecy basically* went unused, and I'm not sure I really buy that the Vampire didn't have the knowledge necessary to make inferences to that degree. There was a lot of work put into that set-up, but my final reaction after a moment to calm down was just relief that "okay this vampire business is over" and not "that was an awesome triumph."

* Yes, it gets referenced in the afterlife. But it was presented as a thing that should have been earth-shatteringly important to the saving of Durkon and it's basically an after-thought that he could have discovered and handled later at no real detriment as long as it was before Redcloak.

[KorvinStarmast]

Based on this tweet (mobile link) (https://mobile.twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963533605002797056?p=v), From that

They're vampires. This is what vampires are: a negative energy consciousness created in the shape of your own worst impulses, stuffed into your dead body to animate it. I like that homebrew vampire concept.

After all that buildup with Hel and Greg the reveal:

Behold, my evil masterplan ist to: cast a vote!
was quite underwhelming. Yes it was, though I did recall Roy observing "we really don't know what is going on (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html)."

Belkar breaks the fourth wall and observes the same (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) when they see the water in the snarlgate

[Wizard_Lizard]

From that
I like that homebrew vampire concept.

kind f like leeches.
Brain leeches.

[Myta]

Another way to look at it is 'we didn't see what Hel's backup plan for a majority against the world's destruction was, because it was unnecessary'. If it had gone with South/West agreeing to save the world, Durkon* would've kept his mouth shut at the Godsmoot and quietly implemented a plan (maybe making his own bid to destroy Kraagors Gate, or exacerbating the rifts in West/South to force the Pantheons to reconsider) with his vampire henchmen.
Subverting Dvalins vote is already a plan b; Hermods vote was meant to be the clincher. No reason to believe Hel didn't have a bunch of other plan b's in waiting.

Sure, no problem with that.
It would even make sense that the whole plan we see is not even the mainplan, just a remote backup plan that she wants to use in case there just happens to be a tie.
Or that she just was able to predict the votes for whatever reasons (some examples listed here).

But we cant know or expect any of this at the time of the reveal. We didnt know that there have been countless worlds and probably votes already (which was a fantastic twist in my opinion. one of the best panels of all time, slowly scrolling down and seeing all those markers... brilliant).
There is no expection of the gods or specificall Hel being hyperintelligent. If anything they mostly seem kind of goofy and dumb. Hel falling for Lokis deal, none of the gods thinking of the consequences of the deal when ending the world (ending the world was no surprise for any of them since they did that countless times before, so they all had a long long time to think about that), Dvalin forgetting a simple "a vote doesnt count if it is the result of any kind of magical influence or otherwise not given freely" rule, Odin being insane most of the time, Thors automated prayer service, Thor being distracted in the middle of a battle by a prayer, Hel giving away her plan instead of claiming any other motive for her vote etc.


The consequence is that for me the reveal of her plan did not work as a twist. Because it does not really fit with what was known to that point. Not an "ah this makes sense now" moment, more like "this is supposed to be her plan? Why? How can this work?"

[Peelee]

Dvalin forgetting a simple "a vote doesnt count if it is the result of any kind of magical influence or otherwise not given freely" rule

Yeah, he really should have set up something to prevent that, like maybe a magic dispelling barrier that with armed guards inside as the voting place for casting a secret vote known only to people sequestered at the Godsmoot, which would require an incredibly unlikely and complex series of events (not to mention wholly unprecedented) to be able to circumvent.

[Kish]

In my reading, a soul occurs as naturally as a body, as if there were some sort of soul mitosis going on. Three-quiddity mortals propagate in order to generate the souls that the gods need but can't directly make by themselves. It is only in a very abstract sense that Durkon or his soul was created by the gods.

As to Kish's overall point, well, clearly I am just confused. I feel like the Monster in the Dark going "Gate? What gate?" (My next guess is that he means to say Hel's initial influence over Greg's mentality wasn't as significant as Hel makes it out to be.
Rather, I think you are vastly overplaying how much Hel weights "your dark spirit was born in my hall." She expects unquestioning obedience and total self-abnegation from everyone who serves her in any capacity: diseases, Garm, undead, the demigod of frost giants. She's just lucky where Greg is concerned that he's just as Lawful as Durkon, freely choosing to serve instead of telling her to go to herself as a Chaotic vampire might.

[Mightymosy]

Don't ask me questions where you put words in my mouth.

Ah, I see.

The point of the *question* was to find out your position.
Hence, the question mark.

If the concept of a question is above or below you, there's not much sense in conversation.

[Peelee]

Don't ask me questions where you put words in my mouth.
Ah, I see.

The point of the *question* was to find out your position.
Hence, the question mark.

If the concept of a question is above or below you, there's not much sense in conversation.

Bolding mine.

Also, your question was very leading.

[hamishspence]

If the concept of a question is above or below you, there's not much sense in conversation.

The objection was to "Did you think she was already perfect"

when Ruck never used that kind of phrasing in the first place, only "good enough"



I think what we do see of Bandana as a captain, she's good enough at the job that any problems with her leadership are sort of by definition irrational.

[Resileaf]

Yeah, he really should have set up something to prevent that, like maybe a magic dispelling barrier that with armed guards inside as the voting place for casting a secret vote known only to people sequestered at the Godsmoot, which would require an incredibly unlikely and complex series of events (not to mention wholly unprecedented) to be able to circumvent.

Yeah, but how likely is it that such a thing would happen in this very comic and that we'd get a full description of how it is made to happen?

[Myta]

Yeah, he really should have set up something to prevent that, like maybe a magic dispelling barrier that with armed guards inside as the voting place for casting a secret vote known only to people sequestered at the Godsmoot, which would require an incredibly unlikely and complex series of events (not to mention wholly unprecedented) to be able to circumvent.

It doesnt really matter how unlikely you think this series of events is, but if it has obvious loopholes that would have been easy to fix. If it has the latter its probably stupid.
Its like putting a magic dice in front of it, and saying anyeone who rolls 256 20s in a row is allowed to do whatever he wants to the dwarfs, otherwise he has to obey the laws. Pretty unlikely to happen, but also pretty stupid. How about NOT putting that dice there?

And the actual thing has several obvious loopholes. If I would present this as a problem for my dnd group, they probably wouldnt take 5 minutes to ask if there is anything stopping them to just charm people between the barriers.
And the solution is also super obvious. No magic or anything requires, just a general law "vote must follow the spirit of a fair and independent vote, without tampering" or something similar. This solution still might not be perfect, there might be ways around it... I would expect that a smart god can come up with a much better wording if he spends more then the 30 seconds that I did. But it would already fix most of the loopholes with basically zero effort.

[Resileaf]

It doesnt really matter how unlikely you think this series of events is, but if it has obvious loopholes that would have been easy to fix. If it has the latter its probably stupid.
Its like putting a magic dice in front of it, and saying anyeone who rolls 256 20s in a row is allowed to do whatever he wants to the dwarfs, otherwise he has to obey the laws. Pretty unlikely to happen, but also pretty stupid. How about NOT putting that dice there?

And the actual thing has several obvious loopholes. If I would present this as a problem for my dnd group, they probably wouldnt take 5 minutes to ask if there is anything stopping them to just charm people between the barriers.
And the solution is also super obvious. No magic or anything requires, just a general law "vote must follow the spirit of a fair and independent vote, without tampering" or something similar. This solution still might not be perfect, there might be ways around it... I would expect that a smart god can come up with a much better wording if he spends more then the 30 seconds that I did. But it would already fix most of the loopholes with basically zero effort.

As Gonthor theorized, there is a possibility that the loopholes were there by design, in case the builders of this place wanted to do some quiet vote tampering of their own.

[Paleomancer]

IIRC, the Giant said she didn't get really lucky with her plan, but rather she formulated her plan based on how she calculated the vote would go.

To be fair to those readers, if the author has to clarify a vital plot point out of the comic, it was not automatically apparent within the comic itself. Being a master manipulator is a key element of Hel's intended characterization and plot significance, not mere trivia. She certainly seems lucky rather than skilled... But that could have been fixed by having other undead servants in place to aid the Vampire at various points, operating under the very noses of the other deities. Getting Durkon woukd simply be a stroke of luck to move forward these other plans. Evil conspiracies have a long and (ig)noble history in fiction, she'd be in fine company.

The anticlimactic plot point that irritated me the most was the final battle with Durkula. It looked to be an epic fight that would show how all the Order members had grown and demonstrated how Durkon's ability to learn and grow would allow him to lead the vampire to its destruction, preferably at some combination of Roy and Belker's blades (both being the most impacted by Durkon's death). What we actually got... was the Order's brilliant plan utterly shredded with absolutely no finesse on the part of the vampires; party members dying, dead, or hypnotized; and a rather sappy finale that shouldn't have worked on a ruthless, vile mass-murdering spirit of death and destruction that had never shown any indication of caring that Sigdi existed, let alone that she had made such a sacrifice.

Now, that last point could still have worked, had there been any indication that the vampire was indirectly vulnerable to Durkon's memories. Say, for example, that Durkon realizes the Vampire spirit had started talking like Durkon when he didn't need to, or reminisced about past memories that weren't his own. Something to clue us in that the Vampire's essence in Durkon was like water filling a jug, taking on the shape of its container. But we didn't have that at all. The "speed of thought" means Durkon can't delay the vampire or trick him directly; it mocked his family dinners and disregarded any display of affection or community; it failed to realise that mocking Roy's brother's death was something Durkon would never do; and was perfectly willing to damn countless millions of sapient beings to torment or oblivion in Hel's name, which Durkon, even at his worst moment, would never seriously have actually done. No prior comic indicated the Vampire would do anything about Sigdi's sacrifice except mock her perceived stupidity, finish slaughtering the Order, and then turn his attention to Dvalin's summit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And the actual thing has several obvious loopholes. If I would present this as a problem for my dnd group, they probably wouldnt take 5 minutes to ask if there is anything stopping them to just charm people between the barriers.

Are any of them playing dwarven spellcasters capable of casting charm? Because the "obvious solution" you've offered doesn't seem to work generically.

And of course, what are the chances that the one dwarf in your gaming group capable of casting charm manages to survive on their own, with one single low-level charmed dwarf by his side, against the onrush of all the other guards? And how does that "obvious solution" in any way alter the result of the vote?

In short: you are deluding yourself into thinking that it is easier than it is. Most players don't play vampires, because they are OP in this specific situation.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

It doesnt really matter how unlikely you think this series of events is, but if it has obvious loopholes that would have been easy to fix.

If it doesn't matter how unlikely I think it is, then to play fair it doesn't matter how obvious you think it is (as GW also helpfully demomstrates). To compund on that, the council very likely rules (or ruled) on more than just Godsmoot tiebreakers, and as the Exexarch pointed out, it was possibly designed in a way to game that system. That the stakes were never expected to be as high as "this can end the world" is hardly their fault. If I design a home security system, I'm not going to be basing it off the idea that it will one day be a safe house for the FBI, I'm going to base it off that the Joneses picked the Silver Plan.

[hroþila]

Now, that last point could still have worked, had there been any indication that the vampire was indirectly vulnerable to Durkon's memories. Say, for example, that Durkon realizes the Vampire spirit had started talking like Durkon when he didn't need to, or reminisced about past memories that weren't his own. Something to clue us in that the Vampire's essence in Durkon was like water filling a jug, taking on the shape of its container. But we didn't have that at all. The "speed of thought" means Durkon can't delay the vampire or trick him directly; it mocked his family dinners and disregarded any display of affection or community; it failed to realise that mocking Roy's brother's death was something Durkon would never do; and was perfectly willing to damn countless millions of sapient beings to torment or oblivion in Hel's name, which Durkon, even at his worst moment, would never seriously have actually done. No prior comic indicated the Vampire would do anything about Sigdi's sacrifice except mock her perceived stupidity, finish slaughtering the Order, and then turn his attention to Dvalin's summit.
I think you're wrong about this. While it's true that we didn't see the vampire being moved by Durkon's memories as such, we did see him taking a particular interest in them beyond what was immediately useful for his purposes, to the point that all the mockery could be construed as the vampire pretending he hadn't become emotionally invested. We saw him wishing to avenge Durkon on the other dwarves. We also saw him picking up Durkon's speech patterns. Another big clue was Malack completely blurring or removing the line between himself and his mortal host, talking about his host's relationship with his brothers as if it had been his own. OOTS vampires are not devoid of feelings, it would seem.

It's true that there was a considerable gap between what I described above and the vampire's catatonic state during the fight, and I can see why some readers would feel it doesn't work. Personally I thought it worked very well, but yours is not an unreasonable point of view.

[Fyraltari]

Now, that last point could still have worked, had there been any indication that the vampire was indirectly vulnerable to Durkon's memories. Say, for example, that Durkon realizes the Vampire spirit had started talking like Durkon when he didn't need to

You mean somethin’ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) like like that?

Also being a master manipulator has never been part of Hel’s characterization, she is indeed quite the impulsive dolt who doomed her own plan by gloating prematurely as Loki reminded us. But she doesn’t need to be one to predict how people will vote in a vote they have held literal billions of times before.

[Resileaf]

But she doesn’t need to be one to predict how people will vote in a vote they have held literal billions of times before.

Indeed. Just from the way the Gods voted and justified themselves during the Godsmoot, I can guess what many of them would normally vote in a given situation.

[Kish]

And the solution is also super obvious. No magic or anything requires, just a general law "vote must follow the spirit of a fair and independent vote, without tampering" or something similar.
To be verified--with no magic required--how exactly?

[Vinyadan]

To be verified--with no magic required--how exactly?

Godly scrying, maybe. Probably not an option while he was alive and made the law, though.

[Paleomancer]

I think you're wrong about this. While it's true that we didn't see the vampire being moved by Durkon's memories as such, we did see him taking a particular interest in them beyond what was immediately useful for his purposes, to the point that all the mockery could be construed as the vampire pretending he hadn't become emotionally invested. We saw him wishing to avenge Durkon on the other dwarves. We also saw him picking up Durkon's speech patterns. Another big clue was Malack completely blurring or removing the line between himself and his mortal host, talking about his host's relationship with his brothers as if it had been his own. OOTS vampires are not devoid of feelings, it would seem.

It's true that there was a considerable gap between what I described above and the vampire's catatonic state during the fight, and I can see why some readers would feel it doesn't work. Personally I thought it worked very well, but yours is not an unreasonable point of view.

Thank you for your reasoned reply, you also make a reasonable argument for why you think it works and where foreshadowing was presemt. I guess I am a firm believer in setting up things for your readers in the comic itself, and I felt that it was not done throughout enough to adequately foreshadow the outcome. We needed more small victories for Durkon, mental skirmishes that paralleled the Order whittling down the vampires, down to some kind of two-way coup de grace between Durkon within and the Order without. That would have been gripping and intense, allowing Durkon to aid his comrades, regain his freedom, and truly grow beyond his tragic past, without the rest of the order being so unceremoniously crushed. Frankly, my disappointment is that Durkon and the Order deserved a better climax than what they actually got.


You mean somethin’ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) like like that?

Also being a master manipulator has never been part of Hel’s characterization, she is indeed quite the impulsive dolt who doomed her own plan by gloating prematurely as Loki reminded us. But she doesn’t need to be one to predict how people will vote in a vote they have held literal billions of times before.
As you and hroþila note, there was some foreshadowing for Durkon's impact on the Vampire, and I concede that point to you. I still feel that promising plotline was insufficiently developed. I honestly cannot see why such a self-absorbed creature would care about what Sigdi did - the comparatively more "reasonable" Malack had no regrets for having eaten his host's brothers, even as he mourned his "children," and later sought to make more (his vampirism was a genuinely great plot twist, by the way - he was a great villain, much as is Redcloak - the banality of evil makes for the best villains in my opinion).

As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...

[Resileaf]

As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...

Thor stated very clearly that Hel was getting loopy from the lack of souls and worship she gets in this cycle. Despite holding dominion over dwarves' souls, she barely gets anything from it because almost all of them die honorably. She's not a 'lucky idiot' or a 'brilliant chessmaster'.
She's desperate. She put all her eggs in this basket because it's the only way she saw to make up for the unfairness she feels she suffers (Do remember that she's evil).

[Kish]

As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...
"Sway over the dwarves by default" was the way Loki put it to trick her into an agreement that would result in her getting very few souls. Not a phrase that evokes "Hel is truly smart and dangerous" in my mind.

[Myta]

Are any of them playing dwarven spellcasters capable of casting charm? Because the "obvious solution" you've offered doesn't seem to work generically.

And of course, what are the chances that the one dwarf in your gaming group capable of casting charm manages to survive on their own, with one single low-level charmed dwarf by his side, against the onrush of all the other guards? And how does that "obvious solution" in any way alter the result of the vote?

In short: you are deluding yourself into thinking that it is easier than it is. Most players don't play vampires, because they are OP in this specific situation.

Grey Wolf

Its not about how easy it is, but about how obvious the loophole is. Rolling 256 20s in a row is also not easy. Still a stupid loophole.


If it doesn't matter how unlikely I think it is, then to play fair it doesn't matter how obvious you think it is (as GW also helpfully demomstrates). To compund on that, the council very likely rules (or ruled) on more than just Godsmoot tiebreakers, and as the Exexarch pointed out, it was possibly designed in a way to game that system. That the stakes were never expected to be as high as "this can end the world" is hardly their fault. If I design a home security system, I'm not going to be basing it off the idea that it will one day be a safe house for the FBI, I'm going to base it off that the Joneses picked the Silver Plan.

The "you" in my statement is misplaced there, my apologies. I was not trying to devalue your opinion, just wanted to say that it doesnt really matter what anyone thinks how unlikely it is, thus there is no value in discussing it. The point is not "my opinion" vs "your opinion", but "unlikely" vs "obvious and easy to fix".
Leaving obvious loopholes in that are easy to fix is just stupid of Dvalin, and not a sign of hyperintelligence.
The security system is already extremely complex and expensive, so they must assign a lot of value to its security. So anyone with half a brain that actually wants it secure should at least invest an absolute tiny minimum of effort to close the open loopholes. Doesnt matter what you actually want to secure it against.

I like the Exarchs explanation that its on purpose... its a good explanation for the actual loopholes. But that doesnt excuse Dvalins to rely on such obvious flaws.


To be verified--with no magic required--how exactly?

The vote does not magically force Dvalin to do anything. He swore an oath to obey the will of the clans when he was alive. Its only his decision to still follow this oath and only his decision to accept the vote of dwarfs that are dominated by vampires as "will of the clans". No magic involved here. The only thing that is required is a rule that a tampered vote doesnt count. Which should be obvious for a lawful being anyway.
As for how he knows that the vote would be tampered with: in this specific case because the vampires already admitted it with lots of witnesses. In general because even the lowest demigod can decide to sense everything in 1-mile radius around one his followers, at two locations at once. As soon as there is a vote he can just check if everything is ok.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...

Neither. I've no idea where you are getting either of those extremes. Her plan is as straight and as subtle as a battleaxe to the face. She got a high-level cleric in a freak accident, and saw her chance to vote to destroy the world. She could predict that she could have a draw, and thus knew that she'd have to get some of the minor deities to a) participate and b) vote her way (note that there is a lot more demigod representatives than usual, presumably all the ones that voted Hel's way plus the one that almost did).

That's it, really. Everything else flows from that straightforward, spur of the moment plan. Greg trying to get himself taken to the place, Greg then coming up with a way to pervert Dvalin's vote? That's not on Hel. She doesn't much care for those details. Her plan deals with the divine side of things. Greg with the worldly ones.

ETA:

Leaving obvious loopholes in that are easy to fix is just stupid of Dvalin, and not a sign of hyperintelligence.

Or a sign that someone did try to fix the problem, and it caused its own issues down the line.

I remain mystified by the general assertion that there are stupid designs and that there are easy fixes. Neither of those is true, under even the most basic assumptions that make the design make sense. And as always, if you are going to make assumptions, you should make them so that the canon makes more sense, not less.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

The vote does not magically force Dvalin to do anything. He swore an oath to obey the will of the clans when he was alive. Its only his decision to still follow this oath and only his decision to accept the vote of dwarfs that are dominated by vampires as "will of the clans". No magic involved here. The only thing that is required is a rule that a tampered vote doesnt count. Which should be obvious for a lawful being anyway.
As for how he knows that the vote would be tampered with: in this specific case because the vampires already admitted it with lots of witnesses.

None of whom include gods, remember? It was spelled out that the gods could only hear each other. What the mortals and the undead did and said wasn't anything the gods were paying attention to.


In general because even the lowest demigod can decide to sense everything in 1-mile radius around one his followers, at two locations at once. As soon as there is a vote he can just check if everything is ok.
So, with magic, after all? I'm also wondering where you're getting the presence of a cleric of Dvalin at the Council vote--particularly, but not limited to, one who hasn't been turned into a vampire (and thus trapped in their corpse, no longer a follower of Dwalin but also not showing up at the afterlife) in the last few minutes.

[Fyraltari]

Thank you for your reasoned reply, you also make a reasonable argument for why you think it works and where foreshadowing was presemt. I guess I am a firm believer in setting up things for your readers in the comic itself, and I felt that it was not done throughout enough to adequately foreshadow the outcome. We needed more small victories for Durkon, mental skirmishes that paralleled the Order whittling down the vampires, down to some kind of two-way coup de grace between Durkon within and the Order without. That would have been gripping and intense, allowing Durkon to aid his comrades, regain his freedom, and truly grow beyond his tragic past, without the rest of the order being so unceremoniously crushed. Frankly, my disappointment is that Durkon and the Order deserved a better climax than what they actually got.


As you and hroþila note, there was some foreshadowing for Durkon's impact on the Vampire, and I concede that point to you. I still feel that promising plotline was insufficiently developed. I honestly cannot see why such a self-absorbed creature would care about what Sigdi did - the comparatively more "reasonable" Malack had no regrets for having eaten his host's brothers, even as he mourned his "children," and later sought to make more (his vampirism was a genuinely great plot twist, by the way - he was a great villain, much as is Redcloak - the banality of evil makes for the best villains in my opinion).

As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...

As Grey Wolf points out Hel is not enacting a centuries-in-the-making masterplan she is making it up as she goes and the better half of the plan is Durkon*'s doing. She's literally just trying something that might work and carries no-risk to herself.

As for Durkon*'s fate... Well two things, Malack and Durkon* are very different in one regard: age. Malack was two-hundred year old and Durkon*, while talking and acting like an adult is a week-old newborn. He says himself that the memory absorption process takes months. Now let's ask the question: who is Durkon* and why is he doing what he is doing? He is a spirit who had no past before possessing Durkon and the first memory he received, his first experience of the world was Durkon's anger and feelings of betrayal. Without any life to process that, as Durkon puts it, he understands that the world is a place of hurt and pain, that is why he is evil. When he experienced Durkon's memories of being taught that Thor is Good and that dwarves look out for one another he could remember durkon's exile and could only conclude that they were liars. Indeed like all people who realize how terrible their behaviour is, he thinks that everybody else is an hypocrite and they are all just as bad as he is, that is the core of his "you are who you are on your worst day" narrative, to justify his own actions.

And now, take a look at his reaction to Sigdi's actions, he isn't moved he doesn't cry out : "What a shining example of good, I must be like her!" He is confused and angry, he yells that there is no logic to this. Why? Because his worldview has just been shattered, because he has been shown someone who faced with a difficult choice took the high road. He is lost, much like Javert from Les Miserables when spared by Valjean, his world has been turned upside down as his preconceptions were shattered and he is desperate for a way to make sense of the world again. But unlike Javert, who could only find peace in death, he is offered a way: Durkon who went through this and has lived with that for decades is right there promising to give him the means to understand. so he takes it.

And suddenly he flooded with Durkon's life-journey, the journey he didn't have, the journey that would allow him to move past Durkon's worst moment, just like Durkon himself did. And so he does.

Malack had no regret for killing his brothers because Malack's story is entirely different,he had time to take in all of his host's memories at his own pace, digest them so-to-speak, and incorporate them into his worldview. Which is why he was only affected so much that he could genuinely love his children but not to the point of not being evil.

[Paleomancer]

Thor stated very clearly that Hel was getting loopy from the lack of souls and worship she gets in this cycle. Despite holding dominion over dwarves' souls, she barely gets anything from it because almost all of them die honorably. She's not a 'lucky idiot' or a 'brilliant chessmaster'.
She's desperate. She put all her eggs in this basket because it's the only way she saw to make up for the unfairness she feels she suffers (Do remember that she's evil).

That may be... But desperation still doesn't reconcile the incongruity between the intellect needed to pull off her scheme and her seemingly obvious lack thereof.

As an aside: why should anyone care one jot that she isn't getting her centennial allowance of souls and worship as part of this balanced religion? Thor speaks of it as an excuse... when frankly it isn't one. Then again, the whole godly diet thing is just appalling from beginning to end (like Faerun's Wall of the Faithless).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That may be... But desperation still doesn't reconcile the incongruity between the intellect needed to pull off her scheme and her seemingly obvious lack thereof.

Again: no idea why you are declaring that it takes intelligence to come up with "tell my preist to vote for me, and call up minor deities to do the same".


As an aside: why should anyone care one jot that she isn't getting her centennial allowance of souls and worship as part of this balanced religion? Thor speaks of it as an excuse... when frankly it isn't one. Then again, the whole godly diet thing is just appalling from beginning to end (like Faerun's Wall of the Faithless).

...

That says more about you than it does about the comic. It is not that shocking that people worry about other members of their family, no matter how much they dislike them.

Also, I see nothing appalling about the godly sources of sustenance. You may want to stop asserting such things by fiat. They are leading you astray.

Grey Wolf

[Mightymosy]

Bolding mine.

Also, your question was very leading.
Even if it was leading, he could easily have said: "No that was not what I was saying, you understood me wrong here."

Or simply:
"No"

So I don't get his anger.

The objection was to "Did you think she was already perfect"

when Ruck never used that kind of phrasing in the first place, only "good enough"

Well read the part you quoted again.
If any (!!!!!) problems with her leadership would per definition (!!!!) be irrational, would that not logically require her leadership to be perfect in the first place?



I made the mistake of caring for Ruck's opinion, and asked whether I understood his position right.
To which he reacted in the way you can read above.
I will be more careful in the future.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Even if it was leading, he could easily have said: "No that was not what I was saying, you understood me wrong here."

There is no "even if it was leading". It was most definitely a leading question. Which indicates a lack of good faith in the person writing the question. Reacting to a leading question like Ruck did is understandable.

For the canonical example, if someone asks you "when did you stop beating your mom?", sure, there are ways to answer that question. But it is far more natural to be offended at the implications, and to suspect the person asking the question is not interested in honest debate.

Grey Wolf

[Myta]

None of whom include gods, remember? It was spelled out that the gods could only hear each other. What the mortals and the undead did and said wasn't anything the gods were paying attention to.

There are tons of possibilities to give this information to Dvalin. There were many high ranking clerics of basically all gods available as witness. The information is already spread to the dwarfs, also with many clerics present. They could use commune, sending, or simply organize large prayers depending how that works here. We have already seen several examples of gods easily seeing whats going on even when its not really important. Durkon even personally talked to Thor since the event.


So, with magic, after all? I'm also wondering where you're getting the presence of a cleric of Dvalin at the Council vote--particularly, but not limited to, one who hasn't been turned into a vampire (and thus trapped in their corpse, no longer a follower of Dwalin but also not showing up at the afterlife) in the last few minutes.

If you consider deities powers as magic, then yes, the act of getting the information is probably magic. But the fix itself does not require any magic. Just a nonmagical rule that I normally would expect to be in place anyway.
Also a cleric is not required. Just a worshipper. Or a sacred object. Or someone that speaks the name of the deity. Or an event relevant to the portfolio. Its really easy to see things as a god if you care enough to take a look.

[Peelee]

Its
The "you" in my statement is misplaced there, my apologies. I was not trying to devalue your opinion, just wanted to say that it doesnt really matter what anyone thinks how unlikely it is, thus there is no value in discussing it. The point is not "my opinion" vs "your opinion", but "unlikely" vs "obvious and easy to fix".

Same for me, I understood you didn't mean me personally and didn't mean you personally, I was just trying to be pithy. I also apologize, sincr it apparently didn't come off as I intended.

That said, I stand by my assertion, and would like to go a step further - even if we agree on obviousness, it doesnt matter unless it's a realistic possibility. A prison with walls 30 feet high has the obvious escape being up, but if the prisoners don't have ladders and can't fly it doesn't much matter.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Its really easy to see things as a god if you care enough to take a look.

And if the god in question does NOT want to see the event because they consider the secrecy of the voting system sacrosanct? Like, say, the same reason a democracy does not put cameras in voting booths, despite it being perfectly within its power to do so? Or if the gods really don't care much what the mortals are saying or doing when they are talking, in the same way children are ignored when adults are having an important conversation?

Also, you didn't address any of the actual points I made, nor the reality that your "easy fixes" aren't easy nor do they fix anything other than making this process dwarven-vampire-proof. A weakness to vampires is not a horrible issue given how rare they are in practice.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

I remain mystified by the general assertion that there are stupid designs and that there are easy fixes. Neither of those is true, under even the most basic assumptions that make the design make sense.Well, design is a much more complicated topic than it ever appears at first glance; and fixes always look easy to someone who doesn't know/care about the rest of the system.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, design is a much more complicated topic than it ever appears at first glance; and fixes always look easy to someone who doesn't know/care about the rest of the system.

Word. But then, if people did start knowing/caring, my job would pay a lot less.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Word. But then, if people did start knowing/caring, my job would pay a lot less.I don't know....I think if we reduce the time spent saving people from themselves, and reallocate it towards building the new stuff they really want; everyone might come out ahead.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know....I think if we reduce the time spent saving people from themselves, and reallocate it towards building the new stuff they really want; everyone might come out ahead.

Ah, so you are suggesting I wouldn't have a less-well-paying job, you're suggesting I wouldn't have a job at all :smalltongue:

Fair enough, it would probably be a better world overall, even if I'd have to find a different form of employment.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Ah, so you are suggesting I wouldn't have a less-well-paying job, you're suggesting I wouldn't have a job at all :smalltongue:

Fair enough, it would probably be a better world overall, even if I'd have to find a different form of employment.Well, I was thinking more like knowing what they were getting into, so they'd have a better appreciation of the situation than "It's just a button that'll do stuff!" before they ask. There's always going to be a need for making deep changes to a design because the system's big enough that a complete rewrite is hardly feasible, or calls for a large parallel/transition effort...but having to go a route like that on more shallow changes is unduly painful, even if we aren't talking about vampires plotting to end the world (which is multiple sorts of pain in the neck).

That said, vampires plotting to end the world is probably the more realistic scenario.

[Kish]

There are tons of possibilities to give this information to Dvalin. There were many high ranking clerics of basically all gods available as witness. The information is already spread to the dwarfs, also with many clerics present.
What's "the information"? If you actually mean that you believe all dwarves know that Hel is presently trying to ensure the world is destroyed, that's somewhere we part ways sharply.

And the only living dwarf clerics not named Durkon or Hilgya the comic has shown anytime recently are three rank novices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1093.html).

[Myta]

That said, I stand by my assertion, and would like to go a step further - even if we agree on obviousness, it doesnt matter unless it's a realistic possibility. A prison with walls 30 feet high has the obvious escape being up, but if the prisoners don't have ladders and can't fly it doesn't much matter.

I was talking about obvious and easy to fix, not just obvious. Of course at some point there is no sense in fixing the loophole if there is only a tiny chance of it happening and a fix costs a lot. In your example it probably doesnt make sense to heighten the walls by another 30 feet just to further decrease the chance of prisoners climbing over. But it might make sense to put barbed wire on top and install a camera. Because thats cheap and easy and provides additional security. And this is exactly what is done in prisons.
Thats basically done everywhere. When there is a known danger thats easy to prevent, we try to prevent it, even when the chance is low of it happening (unless we dont care about the danger, but this is obviously not the case here, the magical protection is already very expensive). We wear seatbelts although the probability of a serious accident is quite low. Helmets on a bycicle.

I cant think of a good reason why one would not make tampered elections invalid (assuming a lawful and honorable society like the dwarfs that wants a fair vote, Loki probably would think a free for all election is funny).
That should be a basic rule especially in a world with so many magical options to control people. It costs basically nothing. Or virtually nothing if Dvalin just says the very obvious "btw. I am not going to accept something as will of the clans which is very clearly and obviously NOT the will of the clans".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When there is a known danger thats easy to prevent
You have yet to demonstrate that there is a known danger or that it is easy to prevent. Simply stating both to be true doesn't magically make it so.


I cant think of a good reason why one would not make tampered elections invalid (assuming a lawful and honorable society like the dwarfs that wants a fair vote, Loki probably would think a free for all election is funny).
That should be a basic rule especially in a world with so many magical options to control people. It costs basically nothing. Or virtually nothing if Dvalin just says the very obvious "btw. I am not going to accept something as will of the clans which is very clearly and obviously NOT the will of the clans".

And how would he know it was tampered with without violating the sanctity of a private vote? Or ensure that "it wasn't tampered with" without magic? Or even with it? Because today it's ridiculously-unlikely-vampire-mass-domination, but I'd imagine that bribery is a far more common way to get a LE dwarf to vote against the interest of its clan, and yet I have yet to see how your suggestion even comes close to fixing that.

Grey Wolf

[Myta]

And if the god in question does NOT want to see the event because they consider the secrecy of the voting system sacrosanct? Like, say, the same reason a democracy does not put cameras in voting booths, despite it being perfectly within its power to do so? Or if the gods really don't care much what the mortals are saying or doing when they are talking, in the same way children are ignored when adults are having an important conversation?

Also, you didn't address any of the actual points I made, nor the reality that your "easy fixes" aren't easy nor do they fix anything other than making this process dwarven-vampire-proof. A weakness to vampires is not a horrible issue given how rare they are in practice.

Grey Wolf

What secrecy of the voting system? So far the votes we have seen were always open.
Also it is not required that Dvalin looks at the election all the time. Its just one of the many options he has. He could also appoint some kind of overseer (which is done in normal lections) or many other options. Or check for manipulation afterward. Or have a short talk with one represetative that delivers the vote. Basically everything is better then just blindly accepting a tampered vote.
That Dvalin just does not care would be a valid option, expect that its the opposite of what was shown so far. The vote is already guarded with a lot of effort, and Dvalin seems to care very much about the clans will, so this assumption just doesnt make much sense.

Which points did I not address?
Also the reality is that my fix is easy. Extremely easy since I do not claim 100% effectiveness in all cases. Just a huge improvement in most of the existing loopholes.
And it does a lot more then making the process dwarven-vampire proof. It also helps against dwarfs that can cast charm. Or suggestion. Or have a wand of suggestion. Or use blackmail. Or use bribes. Sure its not 100% proof in all cases... but still much better then without it. The rule "the vote counts even when its super obviously tampered with and clearly against the will of the clans" is just stupid.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What secrecy of the voting system? So far the votes we have seen were always open.
Dvalin's vote.


Also it is not required that Dvalin looks at the election all the time. Its just one of the many options he has. He could also appoint some kind of overseer (which is done in normal lections) or many other options. Or check for manipulation afterward. Or have a short talk with one represetative that delivers the vote. Basically everything is better then just blindly accepting a tampered vote.
Every one of those would fail to identify the vote as tampered. So it would not even work under your ideal scenario, never mind any of mine.


That Dvalin just does not care would be a valid option, expect that its the opposite of what was shown so far. The vote is already guarded with a lot of effort, and Dvalin seems to care very much about the clans will, so this assumption just doesnt make much sense.
No, your assertion that there is a way to ensure the vote wasn't tampered with that is both magic-less and easy is what makes no sense.


Which points did I not address?
Any of them. Pick any of my posts.

Although at this point I'm honestly baffled at what you mean by "obvious loophole" and "easy solution", since you were talking about not allowing vampiric domination in the middle chamber, and claimed your D&D group would've spotted it immediately, and none of that seems to be a fix or an issue with your "Dvalin would stop tampered votes with this easy fix" claim.


Also the reality is that my fix is easy. Extremely easy since I do not claim 100% effectiveness in all cases. Just a huge improvement in most of the existing loopholes.
And it does a lot more then making the process dwarven-vampire proof. It also helps against dwarfs that can cast charm. Or suggestion. Or have a wand of suggestion. Or use blackmail. Or use bribes. Sure its not 100% proof in all cases... but still much better then without it. The rule "the vote counts even when its super obviously tampered with and clearly against the will of the clans" is just stupid.

I repeat: at this point I have absolutely no idea what this easy fix is.

ETA: wait, I suspect that it is this:

No magic or anything requires, just a general law "vote must follow the spirit of a fair and independent vote, without tampering" or something similar.

Yeah, that's not "easy" to implement. Or rather, it is trivial to implement, and impossible to enforce. Even with magic.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

And it does a lot more then making the process dwarven-vampire proof. It also helps against dwarfs that can cast charm. Or suggestion. Or have a wand of suggestion. Or use blackmail. Or use bribes. Sure its not 100% proof in all cases... but still much better then without it.Hmm...there's an interesting idea....HPoH sells all of Durkon's possessions, gives a package to every clanhead with money promising them even more if they vote to save the world. All votes to save the world are now bribery, so only votes to end the world are valid. At best there are no votes and the Godsmoot is stalled while Xykon and Redcloak keep going after the last Gate.

[Peelee]

I was talking about obvious and easy to fix, not just obvious.

An iron grate over the prison makes the obvious escape route east to fix. But as you noted, there's no sense of the odds are so low.

[Myta]

Every one of those would fail to identify the vote as tampered. So it would not even work under your ideal scenario, never mind any of mine.

Your seriously think that for example an overseer would not notice the vampires all around, the vamped dwarfs, or the order fighting the vampires? Or that Dvalin would not recognize the dominated dwarfs if he talks with them afterwards (Belkar always could remember what he did when dominated)? Seriously?



No, your assertion that there is a way to ensure the vote wasn't tampered with that is both magic-less and easy is what makes no sense.

I never made that assertion. Read again what I actually wrote. I did not write that anything is ensured. I wrote several times now that there are still problems, just a lot less with minmal effort.



Yeah, that's not "easy" to implement. Or rather, it is trivial to implement, and impossible to enforce. Even with magic.

great, at least we can agree on the first part.
Now to "impossible" to enforce part: in this very specific case, here is an incomplete list of things that would make the "impossible" possible:
-take a single look at the voting area right now
-have a short chat with Thor
-talk with any of the dwarfs currently present at the voting area
-talk to a few of the clan representatives after the vote
-talk to the clerics at the goodsmoot

None of these will give 100% proof of tampering, but all them will give enough information to be very cautionous about the result. And checking the dominated dwarfs afterwards will be 100% proof.

How can you seriously claim that it is impossible to detect electoral fraud? You realize that electoral fraud is a very real thing that takes place in the real world and is regularly detected completely without magic? Dvalin is a freaking god, of course why should that be impossible for him?

[Myta]

What's "the information"? If you actually mean that you believe all dwarves know that Hel is presently trying to ensure the world is destroyed, that's somewhere we part ways sharply.three rank novices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1093.html).

The information that there are vampires trying to tamper with the vote. I dont claim all dwarfs now this, just many (I count 21 just in the last panel) and that information is not that difficult to spread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Your seriously think that for example an overseer would not notice the vampires all around, the vamped dwarfs, or the order fighting the vampires? Or that Dvalin would not recognize the dominated dwarfs if he talks with them afterwards (Belkar always could remember what he did when dominated)? Seriously?

No, I'm saying the overseer would be the first one to be dominated. And that the gods can't talk to mortals.


I never made that assertion. Read again what I actually wrote. I did not write that anything is ensured. I wrote several times now that there are still problems, just a lot less with minmal effort.
I did check, and you absolutely did make that assertion:

the solution is also super obvious. No magic or anything requires
"Obvious", "no magic involved". By your own words.


great, at least we can agree on the first part.
Now to "impossible" to enforce part: in this very specific case, here is an incomplete list of things that would make the "impossible" possible:
-take a single look at the voting area right now
-have a short chat with Thor
-talk with any of the dwarfs currently present at the voting area
-talk to a few of the clan representatives after the vote
-talk to the clerics at the goodsmoot
Your solution only works on this one specific situation in which vampire dwarves are involved. It is the "the prison isn't secured because it fails to stop flying prisoners" issue Pelee highlighted. It is not, as I predicted, a general solution to the most basic forms of vote tampering. It only works here because you declare it to work, and not even then: if this had been in place, the vampires would have approached the problem differently. It is not foolproof, it is not easy to implement, and indeed it does not work.


None of these will give 100% proof of tampering, but all them will give enough information to be very cautionous about the result. And checking the dominated dwarfs afterwards will be 100% proof.
Again: only if the actual problem is vampires with infinite mind control ability. Not a general solution that will work. And one that would not have worked if it had indeed been implemented, because the vampires would have used other methods.


How can you seriously claim that it is impossible to detect electoral fraud? You realize that electoral fraud is a very real thing that takes place in the real world and is regularly detected completely without magic? Dvalin is a freaking god, of course why should that be impossible for him?

1) Politics of RW will not be discussed by me.
2) I'm not saying it is impossible to detect. I am saying that your claim that it could have been stopped in this specific case would not have worked, and that they wouldn't have put it in place in the first place because no-one considered the extremely unlikely scenario of a coven of dwarven vampires being an issue they needed specific defences to address.

Your entire claim rests on the fact you can think of 1 way to stop these specific vampires acting in the specific way in which they did. Ignoring that Dvalin set this up when he was mortal, presumably with a limited budget, needing to please many factions at once, and not considering that thousands of years later it would be used to decide the fate of the world while being infiltrated by dwarven vampires that no-one knew about. And ignoring that if the vampires were aware of your "obvious, magic-less solution", they'd have found a different way to do so.

ETA:

The information that there are vampires trying to tamper with the vote. I dont claim all dwarfs now this, just many (I count 21 just in the last panel) and that information is not that difficult to spread.

Bullhonkey. The priests are forbidden from communicating with anyone outside the room, and Dvalin can't change that. The information simply could not spread, short of Roy's very specific circumstance of having attacked his own priest.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

The information that there are vampires trying to tamper with the vote. I dont claim all dwarfs now this, just many (I count 21 just in the last panel) and that information is not that difficult to spread.
What's this "many clerics present" business? And to be relevant for Dvalin's ability to spy on the vote even if he wanted to, it would have to be clerics of Dvalin. Four clerics of Thor, one cleric of Loki, clerics of Dvalin or of unknown gods=0. Few people actively worship demigods; as presented, the vast majority of dwarves worldwide worship Thor.

[Myta]

No, I'm saying the overseer would be the first one to be dominated. And that the gods can't talk to mortals.

And how exactly does dominating the overseer help? Is Dvalin to stupid to notice this?
Also the gods can talk to mortals. While that is not even strictly required in this case, because listening would be enough, communication is very well within the powers of a deity


Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.



I did check, and you absolutely did make that assertion:

"Obvious", "no magic involved". By your own words.

"Ensured" no.



Your solution only works on this one specific situation in which vampire dwarves are involved. It is the "the prison isn't secured because it fails to stop flying prisoners" issue Pelee highlighted. It is not, as I predicted, a general solution to the most basic forms of vote tampering. It only works here because you declare it to work, and not even then: if this had been in place, the vampires would have approached the problem differently.

You claimed it was impossible. I gave an example where its not impossible. So it clearly is possible. It also works in many more situations, but since you claimed "impossible", a single example is enough to prove you wrong. Even if a different approach of the vampires would have worked (with so far is just a claim from you), still doesnt change the fact that it works in this case.
Also you already admitted that its easy to implement, just adm


It is not foolproof, it is not easy to implement, and indeed it does not work.

foolproof: never claimed that
easy to implement: you already admitted that
does work: just gave an example where it works, where you also admitted that it works.


I'm not saying it is impossible to detect.

"Or rather, it is trivial to implement, and impossible to enforce. Even with magic."
Where do you see the difference between impossible to detect and impossible to enforce? If I can detect it, it is very easy to enforce. Fraud detected? -> election invalid! -> enforced!


I am saying that your claim that it could have been stopped in this specific case would not have worked, and that they wouldn't have put it in place in the first place because no-one considered the extremely unlikely scenario of a coven of dwarven vampires being an issue they needed specific defences to address.

Your entire claim rests on the fact you can think of 1 way to stop these specific vampires acting in the specific way in which they did. Ignoring that Dvalin set this up when he was mortal, presumably with a limited budget, needing to please many factions at once, and not considering that thousands of years later it would be used to decide the fate of the world while being infiltrated by dwarven vampires that no-one knew about. And ignoring that if the vampires were aware of your "obvious, magic-less solution", they'd have found a different way to do so.

And I already explained several times now that it would have worked in this specific case which you even said yourself "Your solution only works on this one specific situation in which vampire dwarves are involved", and already explained several times that also works against many other kinds of fraud.
You are now back to claiming that detecting fraud is basically impossible. What is it now?

Simple question for you:
Do you think detecting election fraud is possible or not?


Bullhonkey. The priests are forbidden from communicating with anyone outside the room, and Dvalin can't change that. The information simply could not spread, short of Roy's very specific circumstance of having attacked his own priest.

The information already left the room a long time ago, are you argueing that what happend cannot be now?

[Myta]

What's this "many clerics present" business? And to be relevant for Dvalin's ability to spy on the vote even if he wanted to, it would have to be clerics of Dvalin. Four clerics of Thor, one cleric of Loki, clerics of Dvalin or of unknown gods=0. Few people actively worship demigods; as presented, the vast majority of dwarves worldwide worship Thor.

again: cleric of dvalin is not required for his ability to spy.


As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.

[Rrmcklin]

The ones that most disappointed me are related to hyper-derailing topics. I'll leave it at: I'm not rabid as the most vocal detractors, but I think things could have been handled better on a few fronts with them.

Outside of those?

How Durkon beats the Vampire. Required the Order to fail in a scenario that was very unlikely for them to fail, the revelation about Hurak and the prophecy basically* went unused, and I'm not sure I really buy that the Vampire didn't have the knowledge necessary to make inferences to that degree. There was a lot of work put into that set-up, but my final reaction after a moment to calm down was just relief that "okay this vampire business is over" and not "that was an awesome triumph."

* Yes, it gets referenced in the afterlife. But it was presented as a thing that should have been earth-shatteringly important to the saving of Durkon and it's basically an after-thought that he could have discovered and handled later at no real detriment as long as it was before Redcloak.

I can't help but mention this is odd, considering that probability never matters to begin with. That's a universal truth of fiction, that this series has actually acknowledged more than once. Usually things like that favor the heroes, but it's also not uncommon for it to be used to make things more dramatic.

Also strange to say you don't buy the Vampire not making the connections when we were shown he didn't, again, on multiple occasions.

[Jasdoif]

Also the gods can talk to mortals. While that is not even strictly required in this case, because listening would be enough, communication is very well within the powers of a deityI'm pretty sure the Deities & Demigods rules aren't in effect in Order of the Stick, because it sure doesn't seem like Loki knew about Hel's trickery (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) sixteen weeks in advance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#portfolioSense).

[Kish]

again: cleric of dvalin is not required for his ability to spy.[...] one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity.
Those are all things you have no indication is there.

[Rrmcklin]

As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...

The plan has never struck me as ridiculously complicated, and I'm still bewildered when people claim it is. The impetus to be able to put it into action was purely luck, but I find no issue with the idea that Hel could have formulated the actual (rather simple) plan centuries in advance, and has just been waiting/hoping for an opportunity to use it. And because this is a story, she got one.

There's a middle ground between the two extremes of "brilliant chess master" or "unbelievably lucky idiot". Although, a lot of people seem to ignore middle grounds when talking about character behavior, in general.

[hroþila]

The nature of the wage pretty much guaranteed that this situation would come to pass eventually (i.e. that demolishing the world, as happens often, would result in a massive influx of souls for Hel), so it's no surprise that Hel had an idea about how to capitalize on it. If anything, the issue is whether Loki realized this at the time and how it features in his overall plan, provided such a plan exists in the first place.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The nature of the wage pretty much guaranteed that this situation would come to pass eventually (i.e. that demolishing the world, as happens often, would result in a massive influx of souls for Hel), so it's no surprise that Hel had an idea about how to capitalize on it. If anything, the issue is whether Loki realized this at the time and how it features in his overall plan, provided such a plan exists in the first place.

In my headcanon, it depends on how confident Loki was that Thor would screw up and not manage to turn all dwarves into Lawful Self, sacrificing individuals out of sheer necessity. Honestly, I suspect Loki did not predict the situation because usually Loki excels in the short/term gains, and always fails in the long term (because otherwise he'd take over the universe, one would imagine).

On the other end of the spectrum, Hel might have screwed herself up with impatience, since if she had waited, when the world-s destruction did come she'd have won, but by giving away her plot by voting now, she will be giving time to her opponents to set up a contingency plan for the dwarves when the time comes (this is ignoring the very likely possibility that the OotS will save this world, mind you, but Hel can be forgiven for not expecting that)

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

I'm pretty sure the bet screwed up both Thor and Hel in some way. Thor is supposed to be chaotic good, and now he's forced to make an entire race Lawful good to make sure they don't get screwed in the afterlife.

[factotum]

Loki didn't necessarily consider this outcome when he made the wager in the first place. He's a trickster god, it's entirely in his nature to do something that will mess up both Thor and Hel without thinking about the long-term implications. Heck, if Thor hadn't done such a good job of making the Dwarves an honour-bound and rigid society--and who could have predicted he'd manage that?--then this outcome would never have happened.

[Jannoire]

Simple question for you:
Do you think detecting election fraud is possible or not?

The problem is that either or both of you are talking in absolutes.
While it is possible to detect election fraud, it's nearly impossible to detect and protect from every single form of election fraud.

[Lvl45DM!]

again: cleric of dvalin is not required for his ability to spy.

To paraphrase the Giant, who was paraphrasing an old quote

Do you accept that, in keeping with the clerical hierarchy's established bureaucracy, theres a clever solution that allows the vampires to influence the vote that would be beyond Dvalins ability to reasonably foresee and prevent?
Cos then we are just haggling over price.

[RatElemental]

No, your assertion that there is a way to ensure the vote wasn't tampered with that is both magic-less and easy is what makes no sense.


Actually it's a fairly easy to make dc 15 sense motive check to tell if someone is under magical domination, or a slightly harder to hit dc 25 check to discern any magical manipulation that isn't as extreme. No magic at all required, just the social skills to tell something's off about their behavior.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually it's a fairly easy to make dc 15 sense motive check to tell if someone is under magical domination, or a slightly harder to hit dc 25 check to discern any magical manipulation that isn't as extreme. No magic at all required, just the social skills to tell something's off about their behavior.

Actually, it is even easier, since in OotS dominated characters have visibly spirally eyes. That still doesn't in any way assist Dvalin in determining that the vote was tampered with. Because, as I'm tired of repeating, if Dvalin or his valid representative would be in a situation to detect this, the vampires would have gone for a different form of tampering.

Grey Wolf

[RatElemental]

Actually, it is even easier, since in OotS dominated characters have visibly spirally eyes. That still doesn't in any way assist Dvalin in determining that the vote was tampered with. Because, as I'm tired of repeating, if Dvalin or his valid representative would be in a situation to detect this, the vampires would have gone for a different form of tampering.

Grey Wolf

The point being made here seems to be that that might have made for a better story, or at least one with one less fridge question.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The point being made here seems to be that that might have made for a better story, or at least one with one less fridge question.

If that is the point being made, then it needs to be expressed and defended better than with sweeping, untenable assertions. And the only fridge question I can think of is "why didn't Dvalin design a system of voting capable of stopping vampires with full access to the voting rules?", which seems to have a trivially simple answer.


You claimed it was impossible. I gave an example where its not impossible. So it clearly is possible.
No, you didn't. You gave scenarios which were not part of your original fix, some of which cannot be done, some of which would only work if the vampires didn't know they were about to happen. If any of them were in place, the vampires would work around them.

And your original fix is NOT on that list, because your original "easy solution" was to pass a law forbidding vote tampering, which as fixes go is completely useless.

ETA: Let me put it another way. As long as your "disappointment" with this plot scenario is that "if the voting process had been designed differently, this approach would not have worked", that is all on you and not on the story. Because as you have admitted, there is no fool-proof way to do this, and if Rich had come up with a different voting process, he'd then have had the vampires exploit a different vulnerability, and it would still end up in the same exact situation we are now.

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

And your original fix is NOT on that list, because your original "easy solution" was to pass a law forbidding vote tampering, which as fixes go is completely useless.

Grey Wolf

Technically, vote tampering is illegal no matter what, right? I mean, does there have to be a specific law? Historically, was everyone okay with stuffing ballot boxes before there was a specific law against it?

ANY tampering is... well, it's tampering! And the point is, Hel is rigging the vote and trying to get away with it through a technicality. But the technicality is, nobody is aware, on the divine level, that her servants on the mortal level are rigging the vote. (As I read it, anyway. I'm still a little confused by it all...)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Technically, vote tampering is illegal no matter what, right? I mean, does there have to be a specific law? Historically, was everyone okay with stuffing ballot boxes before there was a specific law against it?

Specific forms of vote tampering tend to be illegal, yes. But there is always a new way someone can come up with. I'd say more, but politics.


ANY tampering is... well, it's tampering! And the point is, Hel is rigging the vote and trying to get away with it through a technicality. But the technicality is, nobody is aware, on the divine level, that her servants on the mortal level are rigging the vote. (As I read it, anyway. I'm still a little confused by it all...)

She's been depending on a lot of technicalities, as the Lawful Evil entity that she is. For example, the no-backsies rule. But what she is most depending on is that to the gods at large, this is not that consequential a vote. They've done it billions of times before, this world did get a reprieve a few years earlier, and yes, it'll suck to have her in charge for the next handful of worlds, but I'd be surprised if variations of this where Odin got de-throned by another Northern deity for a couple million worlds hadn't happened before.

Yes, This Time it's Different because Thor and Loki have figured out the purple quiddity, but most gods don't see it that way, so to them this is just procedural vote uncounted+1. And mortals will be mortals, always picking the worst possible choice for themselves, because mortals, amiright? Always bribing and blackmailing each other and the like. Why, we've all had to do a bit of pushing other religions a bit when we could, haven't we? That's why we have all these rules about staying well away from the mortals.

Grey Wolf

[terodil]

Specific forms of vote tampering tend to be illegal, yes. But there is always a new way someone can come up with.
If a law enumerates several ways of tampering with votes and outlaws each, instead of going to the principle and outlawing any tampering, it's a terrible law/law system.

Being able to detect tampering is another matter, granted, but THIS loophole at least should definitely not exist.

[Cazero]

If a law enumerates several ways of tampering with votes and outlaws each, instead of going to the principle and outlawing any tampering, it's a terrible law/law system.
You can't make a law against all tampering just like that. It could make it illegal to vote when someone is in a bad mood or some similar stupidity. And that's why laws are written about specifics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If a law enumerates several ways of tampering with votes and outlaws each, instead of going to the principle and outlawing any tampering, it's a terrible law/law system.

The alternative that you suggest will inevitably result in thousands of cases of "attempted tampering" and judges having to decide what is and isn't tampering, and you end up with a patchwork of what is and isn't tampering decided on a case-by-case basis. So, essentially the same result, except done by the wrong branch of government.

For example, is laying the case to people to vote your way tampering? Because I can promise you that if "any tampering" is illegal, someone, somewhere will claim that attempting to influence a vote by speechifying is tampering.

If you disagree with the idea that speeches tamper with votes and are about to start laying down rules for what is and isn't tampering in the vast gray area between "not" and "definitely" tampering, then congratulations: you've just created what you have called "a terrible law/law system" and what everyone else calls "a normal law system".

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

For example, is laying the case to people to vote your way tampering? Because I can promise you that if "any tampering" is illegal, someone, somewhere will claim that attempting to influence a vote by speechifying is tampering."You mean you didn't hear the clearly implied threat that we'll all be killed if we vote to destroy the world?"

[Peelee]

speechifying

Grey Wolf

Speechitating (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-07-03).

[terodil]

The alternative that you suggest will inevitably result in thousands of cases of "attempted tampering" and judges having to decide what is and isn't tampering, and you end up with a patchwork of what is and isn't tampering decided on a case-by-case basis. So, essentially the same result, except done by the wrong branch of government.
Yes and no.

It's an indefensible notion that any and all attempts to subsume certain variants of a punishable offense under a common heading is automatically doomed to failure. If you want to outlaw murder, you don't need to enumerate 'murder by stabbing', 'murder by shooting', etc. -- 'murder' is perfectly sufficient for all of them (you might want to introduce certain criteria to separate murder from manslaughter, for example, but that's not the same thing). Now does this allow for a debate whether slightly less clear-cut cases (e.g., purposefully hiding a drug that an ill person needs to survive) also fall into this category? Yes, sure, but that is what the jurisdiction is for. What, in your opinion, would be the task of this particular constitutional branch if not the interpretation and application of laws issued by the legislation?

Edit: Meh. It should be obvious to absolutely everybody that civil law is best law.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(you might want to introduce certain criteria to separate murder from manslaughter, for example, but that's not the same thing).

I don't really need to counter your overbroad original declaration when you do it for me.

And yes, yes it is the same thing as not being feasible to "outlaw all tampering" without specifying what is and isn't tampering or self-defence or politicking, etc. ad nauseam.

Grey Wolf

[terodil]

I don't really need to counter your overbroad original declaration when you do it for me.

And yes, yes it is the same thing as not being feasible to "outlaw all tampering" without specifying what is and isn't tampering or self-defence or politicking, etc. ad nauseam.

GW -- if you refuse to look at the abstract principle of what I wrote in order to try to score cheap points, you might wish to take a look at the civil-law based countries in the world. They provide ample examples and proof that show that what you claim impossible is, in fact, a sound basis to run a constitution.

Edit: Just to showcase this, as you say it's impossible to pour into a law:



(1) Whoever impedes an election or the process of determining its result, by using violence or threatening violence, will be punished [...].
(2) Attempting to do so is also punishable.



(1) Whoever votes without being allowed to, or induces a wrong result, or manipulates the results, will be punished [...].
(2) Whoever announces a wrong result or has one announced, will be punished.
(3) Attempting to do so is also punishable.

That's it. Case closed in regards to election manipulation as far as this particular law system is concerned. Is it truly impractical? 70+ years would say that no.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

GW -- if you refuse to look at the abstract principle of what I wrote in order to try to score cheap points, you might wish to take a look at the civil-law based countries in the world. They provide ample examples and proof that show that what you claim impossible is, in fact, a sound basis to run a constitution.

You've literally contradicted your own claim now twice. I'm done talking to you. I'm not "scoring cheap points" (nice ad hominem, by the way), I'm pointing out that you can't simply outlaw all forms of tampering without turning around and having to then define tampering. And that the vampires with access to the rules then can trivially find loopholes in any such constraints.

Good bye.

Grey Wolf

[terodil]

GW: I have not contradicted myself at any point. I have rejected the notion that you, among others, proposed, that a general law is impossible to formulate and would necessarily miss important variants that lawmakers could not foresee at the time they created the law. I have also provided an example. I honestly think it's up to you now to prove that all this is just deluded rambling.

[Peelee]

GW: I have not contradicted myself at any point. I have rejected the notion that you, among others, proposed, that a general law is impossible to formulate and would necessarily miss important variants that lawmakers could not foresee at the time they created the law.

Wouldnt being more general just make it more argumentative, though? Where is the line between, say, emotional manipulation and a persuasive argument that appeals to emotions?

[Jasdoif]

I have rejected the notion that you, among others, proposed, that a general law is impossible to formulate and would necessarily miss important variants that lawmakers could not foresee at the time they created the law. I have also provided an example. I honestly think it's up to you now to prove that all this is just deluded rambling.How would a magical effect determine whether mentioning how destroying the world will kill everyone in the room is threatening violence to manipulate the results?

That's really critical here....There's an impersonal effect charged with interpreting dwarven law and empowered to incapacitate violators itself; for that to begin to make sense, those laws would need to be written with the expectation of handling such situations impartially....Which means the perpetrator-petrifying effect (The bailiff's basilisk? The constable's cockatrice?) is up a creek with generalities that call for someone to interpret when they should apply, no matter how much "common sense" that interpretation is expected to entail. (This is normally where it becomes apparent that there's too much faith put into detailed rules....)

[Darth Paul]

GW: I have not contradicted myself at any point. I have rejected the notion that you, among others, proposed, that a general law is impossible to formulate and would necessarily miss important variants that lawmakers could not foresee at the time they created the law. I have also provided an example. I honestly think it's up to you now to prove that all this is just deluded rambling.

Well, I myself tried to state something like this and I realize now that I was astray. Any general rule must then go on to define what it is that's being prohibited. For instance; murder is against the law, but what is murder? Is it murder if you kill the person who's actively trying to murder you? And if not, why not? After all, you intended to kill that person, now they're dead...

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I think the main problem is that for some reason that is probably "plot", the dwarves' meeting's barriers don't dispel magic a second time on the second barrier, nor do they ward against dwarven bodies with the "undead" monster type. That's an oversight that if they had the power to dispel magic on the first barrier and it's known you could just cast their spells past that barrier and then go through the second, they had the power to only have one barrier with all of the protections so it couldn't be violated at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think the main problem is that for some reason that is probably "plot", the dwarves' meeting's barriers don't dispel magic a second time on the second barrier, nor do they ward against dwarven bodies with the "undead" monster type. That's an oversight that if they had the power to dispel magic on the first barrier and it's known you could just cast their spells past that barrier and then go through the second, they had the power to only have one barrier with all of the protections so it couldn't be violated at all.

Or alternatively, that some clan heads did not feel safe if their guards could not re-apply defensive buffs while guarding the meeting. The idea being that in normal operation, they will have all the time in the world to re-apply buffs, but if someone attacks the place and gets in, then now they are fighting the guards buff-less, while all the guards still have theirs on. And also stops said attackers from nuking the place from afar.

Or any other explanation you care to come up with other than "because plot".

ETA: and yes, as Kish and Darth Paul point out, not predicting that vampires, or some other extremely rare undead menace, would be interested in interfering in clan council meetings probably seemed way to far-fetched to spend any money adding defences specifically against it.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I think the main problem is that for some reason that is probably "plot", the dwarves' meeting's barriers don't dispel magic a second time on the second barrier, nor do they ward against dwarven bodies with the "undead" monster type. That's an oversight that if they had the power to dispel magic on the first barrier and it's known you could just cast their spells past that barrier and then go through the second, they had the power to only have one barrier with all of the protections so it couldn't be violated at all.
The Council of Clans, like the Godsmoot though not to the same extent, was designed for a group of mutually hostile entities to jockey for power, not for a group of allies to have a harmonious discussion.

In other words, I'm sure the reason why the setup specifically does nothing to stop dwarves from walking into the council chamber with spell effects going, is that at least one of the rule-makers here was already planning to, at the very least, run Eagle's Splendor while speechifying.

Yes, "one of the barriers destroys undead" would be a sensible refinement no living dwarf is likely to object to, one I'm sure they'll take steps to add after this is over.

[Darth Paul]

I think the main problem is that for some reason that is probably "plot", the dwarves' meeting's barriers don't... ward against dwarven bodies with the "undead" monster type.

How about "because the Dwarven elders did not foresee the possibility of a mass invasion by vampirized dwarves"? In real life people (quite intelligent people) often don't think about possibilities that, in hindsight, seem obvious... only because they already happened.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How about "because the Dwarven elders did not foresee the possibility of a mass invasion by vampirized dwarves"? In real life people (quite intelligent people) often don't think about possibilities that, in hindsight, seem obvious... only because they already happened.

Or there is only so much money to spend, and extremely rare events are considered too expensive to bother with. No-one, after all, is going to drive tanks through a forest, so it's hard to justify spending money building anti-tank fortifications facing it.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Or there is only so much money to spend, and extremely rare events are considered too expensive to bother with. No-one, after all, is going to drive tanks through a forest, so you don't need to bother spending money building anti-tank fortifications facing it.

Grey Wolf
What's French for, "Wheeeeeee!"?

Sacré bleu!

[AstralFire]

Terodil is correct. Full stop.

The fact that rules exist does not mean that it is trivially easy to find loopholes in them. The model penal code is remarkably light, and in general, law is actually a lot more simple than people act like it is, outside of contract law, which unfortunately is the majority most deal with regularly. 60% of non contract law is argument procedure, 30% is mostly common sense, 10% is arcane citations of conflicting rules.

The supposition that there must have been a loophole that vampires could have taken advantage of is a viewpoint looking to automatically justify the plot.

As terodil themselves pointed out initially, the issues in this case would be detection and enforcement, yes. And a lack of foresight is understandable, yes. But "law was written badly for understandable reasons" and "law has difficulty with enforcement in an unforeseen situation" do not negate that general case laws are remarkably simple and common.

All countries whose legal systems are derived from the British Empire include over 400 years of case law, most of which basically mirrors the cultural backdrop that the society speaking in plain language already uses when referring to law. It is rare that anyone actually cites to a court of chancery today. The judiciary exists beyond the trial level for two reasons: major errors at the trial level and edge applications of conflicting legal principles. While one may argue (I often do) that a particular form of judiciary has been over relied upon in certain situations, this is what that branch of government is in fact for.

I'm citing to common law rather than civil law because it's what I know but I am in full agreement with terodil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Terodil is correct. Full stop.

No they are not. Not in the conversation we are having. If they want to change topics and talk about real world law systems, they can find a forum where such things are allowed. In the context of plot twists in OotS, the idea that a general rule would have prevented the vampires from enacting a plan in nonsense.

Grey Wolf

[AstralFire]

No they are not. Not in the conversation we are having. If they want to change topics and talk about real world law systems, they can find a forum where such things are allowed. In the context of plot twists in OotS, the idea that a general rule would have prevented the vampires from enacting a plan in nonsense.

Grey Wolf


If a law enumerates several ways of tampering with votes and outlaws each, instead of going to the principle and outlawing any tampering, it's a terrible law/law system.

Being able to detect tampering is another matter, granted, but THIS loophole at least should definitely not exist.

Direct quotation.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Direct quotation.

The direct quotation in no way defend the claim "Terodil is correct. Full stop.". As Jasdoif keeps reminding everyone, the context for this conversation is the fact that the voting enforces all laws via petrification. A general law such as "you can't tamper with the vote" would mean council heads turning to stone in every vote.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Terodil is correct. Full stop.

The fact that rules exist does not mean that it is trivially easy to find loopholes in them. The model penal code is remarkably light, and in general, law is actually a lot more simple than people act like it is, outside of contract law, which unfortunately is the majority most deal with regularly. 60% of non contract law is argument procedure, 30% is mostly common sense, 10% is arcane citations of conflicting rules.

Non-contract law? Would that be criminal law? Constitutional law? Tax law? Corporate and Securities law? Environmental law? Family and Juvenile law? Health law? Space law?

Are you a lawyer? If yes, would you claim knowledge of any whole number percent of the law? If yes, I will admit to being very impressed. :smallwink:

[AstralFire]

The direct quotation in no way defend the claim "Terodil is correct. Full stop.". As Jadoif keeps reminding everyone, the context for this conversation is the fact that the voting enforces all laws via petrification. A general law such as "you can't tamper with the vote" would mean council heads turning to stone in every vote.

Grey Wolf

Terodil takes exception to a very specific point: that the vampires flat-out take advantage of an "Air Bud" exception, "the law doesn't say a dog can't play basketball". While popular in fictional law, that doesn't actually occur much in real law, relatively speaking. While making note of this, they immediately admit that actually implementing the enforcement of said better law in this case would be difficult. I do not believe they have not said anywhere within the last 100 posts (per my checking on mobile) that the vampires would be defeated by a better law. Just that the law is badly written.

[Sir_Norbert]

Surely the simplest refutation of Terodil's point is: We have no idea how the law in question is written. Maybe the dwarves do have a law that says "No electoral fraud"! How would that change anything in the comic? It just means Dvalin doesn't personally oversee whether or not the law is being broken, because he's a demigod, not a one-dwarf police force.

In fact , #1157 makes it clear that, one way or another, what the vampires are doing is illegal. They're just making sure they don't take any illegal actions while in the inner chamber.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Terodil [...] I do not believe they have not said anywhere within the last 100 posts (per my checking on mobile) that the vampires would be defeated by a better law. Just that the law is badly written.

No, they claimed it would be a terrible law, implying no good law ever was written by enumerating the specific definitions of the words it used. This is 1) nonsense and 2) almost certainly false, if I were to try to bring RL law. I don't want to get red-texted/carded, so I won't bother, but I'm confident in saying that there exists good laws that do explicitly list white and black areas where they apply and don't just rely on broad declarations.


Terodil takes exception to a very specific point: that the vampires flat-out take advantage of an "Air Bud" exception, "the law doesn't say a dog can't play basketball".

And the strawman award for today goes to AstralFire.

Grey Wolf

[Cazero]

No-one, after all, is going to drive tanks through a forest, so it's hard to justify spending money building anti-tank fortifications facing it.I thought they did that to spare Belgium's feelings, but that reason makes more sense.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought they did that to spare Belgium's feelings, but that reason makes more sense.

No, they didn't build them along the rest of the border because the plan was always to send their own forces up to defend Belgium's border (the longer version of "France and Belgium were friends" that you mention). Everything I have heard, though, is that the forest itself was considered to be uncrossable with any kind of haste, so if the Germans did try, France expected it would have had plenty of time to reposition (like, a week or two was expected*). Germany managed to move through it in like 2 days*, essentially cutting off all forces in Belgium from their supply lines.

That said, I am by no means an expert of military history, and this is cobbled together from a bunch of less-than-stellar sources plus filtered through my memory, so take with a very large pinch of salt.

Grey Wolf

*Numbers might be way off from reality. Meant to exemplify, not for accuracy

[AstralFire]

... right, it's a straw man to point out that Terodil is saying a law is bad by only enumerating very specific examples in which it fails, which is what I said?

That's not a strawman, and it's not goalpost shifting.

By the way, it's actually a strawman to take terodil's assertion that that your law is bad at handling tampering if it has to enumerate every specific method of tampering and say that every law is a bad law if it ever uses specificity for any reason. That's not an implication of the statement; there are laws where specificity is used exclusively for good reason. Like procedural laws. Whether or not terodil would agree with me there, I can't say, but it doesn't seem like a reasonable interpretation of their statement at all.

Peelee, I'm not a practicing attorney. But I've been to law school and I've got enough experience as a legal assistant to feel confident with that statement in most fields of law outside of contract and IP law. This in no way means that you can take a lawyer off one specialty and have them do well in another; procedure is a huge percentage for a good reason, and one quarter of the remainder is quite a lot. But most cases the law needs to be applied, the law is actually quite simple to follow since it necessarily has to be followed by lay persons.

[Darth Paul]

Or there is only so much money to spend, and extremely rare events are considered too expensive to bother with. No-one, after all, is going to drive tanks through a forest, so it's hard to justify spending money building anti-tank fortifications facing it.

Grey Wolf


I thought they did that to spare Belgium's feelings, but that reason makes more sense.

Sort of both, but the fact that the Ardennes Forest was considered "untankable" meant that when the Germans did drive their tank battalions through it, the French fortifications were bypassed and the Allied troops were taken by surprise and encircled.

[Resileaf]

Something to mention, the clan council meeting doesn't seem like it's part of regular Dwarven Law, but it's own specific thing, and it wouldn't surprise me if an organization full of old people who would most likely not care to change things had a rule book full of still full of old arcane rules.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

... right, it's a straw man to point out that Terodil is saying a law is bad by only enumerating very specific examples in which it fails, which is what I said?


No, it is a strawman to claim that my or anyone else's position is that the vampires are relying on "Air Bud" law tropes. Which is what I quoted you saying.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

If a law enumerates several ways of tampering with votes and outlaws each, instead of going to the principle and outlawing any tampering, it's a terrible law/law system.

Being able to detect tampering is another matter, granted, but THIS loophole at least should definitely not exist.Direct quotation.The direct quotation in no way defend the claim "Terodil is correct. Full stop.". As Jadoif keeps reminding everyone, the context for this conversation is the fact that the voting enforces all laws via petrification. A general law such as "you can't tamper with the vote" would mean council heads turning to stone in every vote.(Assume I said something clever about missing the "s" in my name.)

I did miss that post of terodil's, and it's an interesting point: If the dwarves do have a general law about tampering with the vote, but it calls for detecting/reporting/adjudicating/something-ing that can't be done at the meeting itself, then that's a loophole as far as the vampires are concerned: They don't have to outrun the dwarven legal system, they just have to outrun the destruction of the world (and the dwarven legal system with it). To that end, the dwarves very well could have such a general law.

[Rrmcklin]

Something to mention, the clan council meeting doesn't seem like it's part of regular Dwarven Law, but it's own specific thing, and it wouldn't surprise me if an organization full of old people who would most likely not care to change things had a rule book full of still full of old arcane rules.

Yes, the institution does seem to mostly to exist for Davlin's sake now, maybe for other ceremonial reasons too. We were told before Roy left the Godsmoot that the Council of Clans is not the current Dwarven Parliament.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Something to mention, the clan council meeting doesn't seem like it's part of regular Dwarven Law, but it's own specific thing, and it wouldn't surprise me if an organization full of old people who would most likely not care to change things had a rule book full of still full of old arcane rules.

The feeling I'm getting is that the government-by-clan-chiefes got toppled and a different one based around a parliment got established but that like, say, in the Roman Empire the old system (clan chief/senate) was never officially disolved, it just stopped having any power, other than status and occasionally having to vote on whatever Dvalin feels he needs to ask. Status being important in its own right, it was an easy way to keep the clan chiefs happy even after political power was taken away from them.

Grey Wolf

[AstralFire]

No, it is a strawman to claim that my or anyone else's position is that the vampires are relying on "Air Bud" law tropes.

Grey Wolf

Air Bud: The rulebook doesn't say a dog can't okay basketball. So it must be okay.
Vampires: The rulebook doesn't say dominating people is against the rules, so it must be okay.

Both are facially ridiculous situations. Both are based on something that does occur (a law that enumerates only things that are specifically banned and does not include any sort of reasonable person catch all or unlisted exception). In what way is this a vast misrepresentation of your point? If you take exception to it because it's belittling, I actually liked the first Air Bud. It's still kind of a ridiculous situation, as mentioned within the narrative. (Ridiculous and breaks suspension of disbelief are not the same here).


(Assume I said something clever about missing the "s" in my name.)

I did miss that post of terodil's, and it's an interesting point: If the dwarves do have a general law about tampering with the vote, but it calls for detecting/reporting/adjudicating/something-ing that can't be done at the meeting itself, then that's a loophole as far as the vampires are concerned: They don't have to outrun the dwarven legal system, they just have to outrun the destruction of the world (and the dwarven legal system with it). To that end, the dwarves very well could have such a general law.

I don't really have any issue with that! I don't feel strongly about the issue itself within the story. I agree, that's completely possible.

[Peelee]

Peelee, I'm not a practicing attorney. But I've been to law school and I've got enough experience as a legal assistant to feel confident with that statement in most fields of law outside of contract and IP law. This in no way means that you can take a lawyer off one specialty and have them do well in another; procedure is a huge percentage for a good reason, and one quarter of the remainder is quite a lot. But most cases the law needs to be applied, the law is actually quite simple to follow since it necessarily has to be followed by lay persons.

I would like to establish that you have roughly infinite more knowledge and experience than I here, but I still doubt most law (except maaaaaaaaaybe criminal law) is simple enough for the lay person to be able to follow it. And even criminal law I have my doubts on, thanks in no small part to Harvey Silverglate and Alexandra Natapoff.

[KorvinStarmast]

That said, vampires plotting to end the world is probably the more realistic scenario. Vampires willfully depriving themselves of unlife, and their food sources, strikes me as profoundly against their own self interest.
That said, I am by no means an expert of military history, and this is cobbled together from a bunch of less-than-stellar sources plus filtered through my memory, so take with a very large pinch of salt. Mostly on target with that (I am very familiar with that campaign) as well as some other things.
The Germans/Wehrmacht had a particular vigor in execution that is, from an objective military perspective, quite admirable and impressive. Far more importantly, they (1) were ahead of the French in Command and Control techniques of combined arms warfare, and (2) practiced a thing called Auftragstaktik which allowed for a lot of decentarilized execution of orders while the French were far more centralized for that campaign. This allowed the Wehrmacht to "get inside the French decision cycle" which decision making model we see once again a generation later with John Boyd's treatise in tactical air-to-air combat ... and that is still being taught in at least one major alliance's military doctrine ... (3) the Germans did a much better job of training for combined arms warfare (unifying the tactical application of combined air, armor, infantry, and artillery) even though the best medium tank in the world, at that time, was of French manufacture.

All of that let to not just the Ardennes piece working well beyond even German expecations, but a number of other sectors haveing more favorable outcomes.

Sorry for the derail.


The feeling I'm getting is that the government-by-clan-chiefes got toppled and a different one based around a parliment got established but that like, say, in the Roman Empire the old system (clan chief/senate) was never officially disolved, it just stopped having any power, other than status and occasionally having to vote on whatever Dvalin feels he needs to ask. Status being important in its own right, it was an easy way to keep the clan chiefs happy even after political power was taken away from them. I could swear that we have seen this post and this point of reference before in the not too distant past. And I think it's roughly on track.

[AstralFire]

I would like to establish that you have roughly infinite more knowledge and experience than I here, but I still doubt most law (except maaaaaaaaaybe criminal law) is simple enough for the lay person to be able to follow it. And even criminal law I have my doubts on, thanks in no small part to Harvey Silverglate and Alexandra Natapoff.

If it matters, I primarily have worked in criminal and constitutional law, so I am necessarily biased towards views of those fields. And also one is inclined to think something is simpler if one has done it. So that is fair.

[The Aboleth]

Terodil takes exception to a very specific point: that the vampires flat-out take advantage of an "Air Bud" exception, "the law doesn't say a dog can't play basketball".

I don't really have much to add to the discussion, but I just wanted to say that the fact someone seriously brought up the "Air Bud exception" in a debate about a stick figure comic is one of the many reasons I keep coming back to this forum. A hundred internets to you!

Also, they apparently made like 27 "Air Bud" sequels spanning multiple different sports. You'd think after the first movie people might amend the rules to say, "Dogs can't play [insert sport here]," but that's Hollywood, I guess.