Sorcerer Revisited

[strangebloke]

There are three classes in 5e that I think are poorly designed. I don't think that they're weak, mind. They're just awkward, non-intuitive, or conceptually messy.

The Sorcerer has historically been billed as the 'dumbed-down' wizard or the 'blasting-focused' wizard. As things currently stand, the sorcerer is strong, but isn't good at blasting, is extremely non-intuitive, and has multiple trap options.
The Druid is a total powerhouse, but is conceptually a mess and generally is unpopular. Hilariously I think that this class would be the hardest one to 'fix.'
The Ranger is cool, powerful, and flexible, but has, by my count, 2 basically dead levels, and two more that are extremely underwhelming. This is mostly because Natural Explorer/Favored Enemy improvements are treated like they're half a level's worth of class features, when in fact they... just sorta keep the base abilities relevant. The revised Ranger takes this way too far in the other direction.


I'm attempting to improve the way these classes feel without throwing the power curve completely out of whack. I want to be clear that this is mostly just a thought excercise for fun. Homebrew is very risky to allow in a DND game, particularly homebrew that (like this) hasn't been playtested. I'm not confident that I would set up these altered classes for my own longer campaigns, as DND is primarily an oral tradtion and teaching players new rules is a pain in the butt that distracts from the actual game.

Without further ado, here's my sorcerer min-fix:

Sorcerer

Can now choose an additional metamagic at level 7.
At levels 1, 5, 10, and 17 you can select a new spell known from the sorcerer list.
Extended Spell and Distant Spell are no longer options
In order to select Heightened Spell you must be at least level 10
New metamagic options added:



Transmuted Spell: when you cast a spell that deals acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage, you may spend 1 sorcery point to change all damage of one of these types to another one of these types.
Widened Spell: When a spell effects all creatures within a sphere, cylinder, cone or cube, you can spend one sorcery point to increase the size of the area of effect by five feet. If there are separately listed dimensions to the area of effect (such as height and radius for a cylinder) both dimensions are effected. You can combine this metamagic effect with other metamagic effects.
Persistent Spell: (requires level 10) When you would lose concentration on a spell, you can spend two sorcery points to instead maintain concentration on it until the end of your next turn. You cannot use this if you lost concentration by casting another spell that requires concentration. You can use this on a spell that has another metamagic effect applied to it.
Doublecast Spell*: (requires level 10) When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend 3 sorcery points to cast a second spell at the same target. The second spell must also only target the same creature as targeted by the first spell. You must expend the appropriate spell slot for both spells.




My main goal here was to support the way that people want to play sorcerers while removing obvious trap options. You shouldn't really ever take heighten at level 3. You shouldn't really ever take extend or distant spell. They're too niche. I also felt that adding options was a way to change how the sorcerer plays without actually rewriting large sections of the class.

By gating some metamagic options with a level requirement, we can ensure that choosing metamagic options isn't a false choice, where you take all the best ones at level 3 and then get whatever's left at later levels. Here, your options at Level 10 will be different at level 10 than they are at level 3. Oh, this also has the effect that multiclass builds get a little weaker, which I see as desireable. There's an argument that Quicken and Twin should be gated, if not to level 10 than at least to level 7. Not sure if I agree or not, since the cost of Twin is actually pretty much static with respect to your total amount of resources, and Quicken is actually pretty useful at low levels.

All the above changes literally just remove options and therefore make the class weaker while also making it more intuitive. Sorcerers definitely aren't currently overpowered outside of specific combos, so I feel pretty safe adding another metamagic option at level 7. While the sorcerer does get fourth level spells here, I think that level 7 is actually a pretty weak level. Its fine if wizards don't get anything other than new spells at 7th because their spellcasting is so strong. But Sorcerer spellcasting is a bit weaker overall so I don't think its crazy if they get something here. Would be willing to move this level extra metamagic option to level 10 if someone has a half-decent argument.

Widen Spell and transmute spell are here to support the blaster sorcerers. I think that an draconic empowered widened acidball is going to be quite fun, yeah? Widen could very well be overpowered, but I honestly can't think why. The only thing that seemed a little sketchy was that a widened burning hands at level 3 is going to be a big AOE at that level, but... that doesn't really concern me. Maaaybe a widened sword burst or thunderclap? I still have a tough time really seeing that as overpowered.

Doublecast is a 1-2 punch that lets people do what they want to be doing with twin and quicken. Maybe it should be more expensive, but honestly as strong as hold person+disintegrate is, that's 10 cumulative levels worth of spells that you're burning for your trick, and you can't even do it until level 11 anyway. Let me know if there's a crazy combo I missed.

Resilient Spell is the 'boring but functional' option. There are some crazy effects possible here. You can keep a twinned haste spell going after you've been incapacitated, for example. I thought about letting it work even if you lost concentration because you cast another spell, but that seemed like it was just asking to get broken wide open.

Still feel as though there should be a high-level metamagic that is an auto-pick for AOE magic. Maybe Widen should be higher level?

*credit to Middle Finger of Vecna


If you're interested in seeing me ramble about the Druid and Ranger, let me know!

CHANGES:

added spells known at recommendation of TheUser
Altered Doublecast to be more clear, forced it to target the same creature twice.
Lessened the effect of widen to 5 feet as opposed to 10. Clarified how it works with multiple dimensions.

[TheUser]

Fails to address the primary problem with sorcerers; spells known.

Some of these metamagics are also horrendously OP (double cast spell).

[Fnissalot]

Interesting thoughts!

I would do stuff differently but overall I think it sounds good. Limiting expensive options to higher levels sounds like a good idea, but the easy way to do it would be to set the level limit to double (or even triple) its minimum cost.

I wouldn't remove extended or distant spell but try to improve them instead. Getting 30ft range on touch spells can be great! Multiple things could be done; distant spell could double the internal ranges of spells as well(see green flame blade and acid splash), extended spells could let spells that have subsequent actions be done as bonus actions(see witch bolt and crown of madness), or they can be combined into one. They are not always worth 1 sorcery point right now but that could probably be said for transmuted spells as well. I would have transmuted spell last for a duration; Manifested spell: when you cast a spell that deals damage, you can spend 1 sorcery point to manifest a chosen damage type within you. If you do, anytime a spell would deal damage in the following minute including the triggering spell, you may change the damage type of that spell to the chosen damage type.

I think widened might be too good and would decrease it to 5 feet or increase the cost. A clarification, it probably requires a specification of how it relates to the size; radius for spheres and cylinders for example.

I think persistent spell either should give you advantage before the roll or a reroll after. Flatly fixing feels off.

Doublecast is very strong but also rather expensive. I would limit it to spells that take an action to cast and that the combined level of the spells you cast must be less than the highest level spell slot you have available.


Fails to address the primary problem with sorcerers; spells known.


That is also true!

[strangebloke]

Fails to address the primary problem with sorcerers; spells known.

Some of these metamagics are also horrendously OP (double cast spell).
To clarify:

Is the issue of not having enough spells a power issue or a class accessibility issue?

I think that the sorcerer is plenty powerful, I just want to make it more intuitive. If I was adding spells, I'd give each subclass a list of thematic spells.

I don't think double cast is op. At all. A wizard can do the same thing with a simulacrum with different requirements and so it isn't overpowered compared to other classes. Compared to other metamagic options I would not say it's overpowered either. You still have to drop two spell slots plus three sp so it's even more expensive than twin. Unless there's some glorious wombo combo I'm missing I don't see it.

Which other metamagic is OP? Widen?

Interesting thoughts!

I would do stuff differently but overall I think it sounds good. Limiting expensive options to higher levels sounds like a good idea, but the easy way to do it would be to set the level limit to double (or even triple) its minimum cost.

I wouldn't remove extended or distant spell but try to improve them instead. Getting 30ft range on touch spells can be great! Multiple things could be done; distant spell could double the internal ranges of spells as well(see green flame blade and acid splash), extended spells could let spells that have subsequent actions be done as bonus actions(see witch bolt and crown of madness), or they can be combined into one. They are not always worth 1 sorcery point right now but that could probably be said for transmuted spells as well. I would have transmuted spell last for a duration; Manifested spell: when you cast a spell that deals damage, you can spend 1 sorcery point to manifest a chosen damage type within you. If you do, anytime a spell would deal damage in the following minute including the triggering spell, you may change the damage type of that spell to the chosen damage type.

I think widened might be too good and would decrease it to 5 feet or increase the cost. A clarification, it probably requires a specification of how it relates to the size; radius for spheres and cylinders for example.

I think persistent spell either should give you advantage before the roll or a reroll after. Flatly fixing feels off.

Doublecast is very strong but also rather expensive. I would limit it to spells that take an action to cast and that the combined level of the spells you cast must be less than the highest level spell slot you have available.

That is also true!

Extended and distant are both really bad and uninteresting. I don't want to bloat the number of options, and honestly there just isn't anything worth saving there.

Widened probably does need clarification, but I'm curious when you think it would be overpowered. The most powerful thing I can think of is a dragon sorcerer dropping a thunderclap, increasing it's aoe to 15 feet, and then transmuting the damage to his element. That would be like 3d6 +5 damage in a fireballs radius for a second level spell. Imo not overpowered.

[Fnissalot]

Widened probably does need clarification, but I'm curious when you think it would be overpowered. The most powerful thing I can think of is a dragon sorcerer dropping a thunderclap, increasing it's aoe to 15 feet, and then transmuting the damage to his element. That would be like 3d6 +5 damage in a fireballs radius for a second level spell. Imo not overpowered.

These are approximations but comparably to how weak a lot of the meta magic options are numbers-wise, some of these are really strong. For example, increasing a 5ft cube to a 15ft cube is a 800% increase in area (1 to 9 squares). A 15ft cone goes from hitting ~6-7 squares to ~15-16 (+128 to 150%). A fire ball goes from hitting about 44 squares to 96 which is more than double the area. Doubling the area of fireball, which already is a spell above the power curve is broken!

Also, getting the increase of area on cantrips for a single point is strong. A 15ft cube create bonfire cantrips lasting for a minute is also absurd for a cantrip.

[strangebloke]

These are approximations but comparably to how weak a lot of the meta magic options are numbers-wise, some of these are really strong. For example, increasing a 5ft cube to a 15ft cube is a 800% increase in area (1 to 9 squares). A 15ft cone goes from hitting ~6-7 squares to ~15-16 (+128 to 150%). A fire ball goes from hitting about 44 squares to 96 which is more than double the area. Doubling the area of fireball, which already is a spell above the power curve is broken!

Also, getting the increase of area on cantrips for a single point is strong. A 15ft cube create bonfire cantrips lasting for a minute is also absurd for a cantrip.

I'm aware of these issues, I guess I just don't generally see the issue of making AOEs big. I mean, sure, a 60 foot wide fireball is crazy, but you can achieve pretty much the same effect by flying up and casting cone of cold from the sky.

The cantrip issue is a more significant one. I'd forgotten about create bonfire, and that probably is the most efficient usage here. That usage definitely outclasses something like burning hands by a massive margin, although to be fair burning hands wasn't that good to begin with.

Interesting. I will have to put more thought into this.

[Fryy]

To clarify:

Is the issue of not having enough spells a power issue or a class accessibility issue?

Both, really. The question is how many additional free-to-choose spells they should get over 20 levels vs. the 15 were given in the PHB.

[sophontteks]

Both, really. The question is how many additional free-to-choose spells they should get over 20 levels vs. the 15 were given in the PHB.
1 spell per level is normal, its the low number of starting spells that sets the sorcerer apart. Bards start with 5 vs. the sorcerer's 2, and honestly just giving the sorcerer 1 additional spell at level 1 would be a huge gain.

[Trustypeaches]

To be honest, as far as the Sorcerer's low spells known go, I'm tempted to give each subclass a spell list with one or two spells for each spell level until 5 (like Clerics, basically). This would give Sorcerers 10 more spells to play with that also flesh out each of their thematic niches.

[LudicSavant]

Riddle me this: Why does the Sorcerer gain less spells known in their tier 3 and 4 progressions than the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster?

The Sorcerer's number of spells known is depressing to experience playing them from 1-20. It's an even worse experience if you're single-classed rather than a Sorlockadin, because the Sorcerer's spell progression actually slows down dramatically over time. If you thought getting 11 spells known over your first 10 levels was bad, look forward to getting 4 spells known over your second 10. That's right, the Sorcerer's spells known progression slows down by more than half! In fact, the amount gained per 10 levels goes down by a whopping 64%! Even the Eldritch Knight gains more spells known over those levels than you do! (They go from 7-13, rather than from 11-15) By level 20, the Sorcerer only has ~1.67 spells per spell level.

The Wizard on the other hand has the opposite pattern. They speed up their spells known over time. 2 spells per level is constant, yes, but it also gets easier and easier for them to add variety to their spellbook (since you can pick up the lower level spells for a pittance at later levels). And it's not like the Sorcerer is getting other stuff in their high level progression to make up for this disparity; this is when the Wizard's spell list starts kicking into ultra-high gear and getting all the action economy tools that aren't on the Sorcerer list, like Contingency and Simulacrum and so forth. Not to mention Crown of Stars arguably matching or even beating out Quicken Spell (4d12 damage bonus action 7 times for a 7th level spell slot vs 3-4dX 7 times for 14 Sorcery points, which would have taken 2 level 7 spell slots to create, or could have created 2 level 5 spell slots). And it's also when Wizards are getting things like Illusory Reality in tier 3.

This is one of the reasons I'm not all that fond of the "Just give them a domain" solution. That speeds them up at the top of their progression (Sorlockadins will be happy to hear that) but the single-classed Sorcerers are still looking at 4 spells gained over their last 10 levels of play.

[TheUser]

The solution, imho, has always been clear.
+1 spell per tier.
3 spells known at level 1.
8 spells known by level 5.
15 known spells by level 11
19 by level 17

It isn't an overwhelming increase that off balances the class but is enough to give the flexibility it deserves gradually over time.

Step 2 is to allow swapping 1 spell per long rest instead of after a level up.
The notion that a player should have to suffer from a spell selection mistake for a whole level is absolutely ridiculous. Again, this is still balanced and doesn't tread on prepared casters like wizards and clerics who can swap their entire lists in 1 long rest but makes the frustration of picking a crappy spell far less permanent and insufferable to the players.

[Dr. Cliché]

Honestly, I'm still not sold on sorcerers having metamagic in the first place. It always felt much more like a wizard ability to me and time has yet to change that.

Personally, I'd like to see metamagic dropped altogether and instead have them greatly expand the sorcerer subclasses.

It seems like there should be huge opportunities for flavourful and interesting powers, yet so much design space is taken up with Metamagic that the subclasses only provide a few abilities, which tend towards being quite dull.

Given that your subclass is supposed to be the source from which all your powers are drawn, I find it very depressing that it has so little impact on your progression. e.g. after lv6 you have to wait a further 8 levels before your subclass even comes up again.

[strangebloke]

The solution, imho, has always been clear.
+1 spell per tier.
3 spells known at level 1.
8 spells known by level 5.
15 known spells by level 11
19 by level 17

It isn't an overwhelming increase that off balances the class but is enough to give the flexibility it deserves gradually over time.

Step 2 is to allow swapping 1 spell per long rest instead of after a level up.
The notion that a player should have to suffer from a spell selection mistake for a whole level is absolutely ridiculous. Again, this is still balanced and doesn't tread on prepared casters like wizards and clerics who can swap their entire lists in 1 long rest but makes the frustration of picking a crappy spell far less permanent and insufferable to the players.

I'm editing the op to reflect this change. It seems reasonable and does make the class more forgiving, which is my key design goal.

The domain idea is fine, just that I don't want to do it because this is a min fix.

[MrStabby]

I have to say I am pleased that you seem to be trying to balance this. Sorcerer is one of the most powerful classes in the game and it is good to see someone bearing this in mind when proposing fixes.

I have seen too much garbage on the sorcerer (almost always resulting in something even more powerful by loosening constraints, such as spells known). That said, it is this tightness of spells known that make some options trap options which is what you are trying to fight. More spells knownis a crap fix for this, but maybe allowing a hybrid approach could work: x spells known but with something like 2 spells that are prepared spells from the list. Same number of options each day but a bit more flexability makes the trap spells hurt less.

Given that you are trying to avoid traps with the metamagic by reducing options, you could also trim the sorcerer list to rule out the bad there, if you wanted to be more friendly to newer players.

[strangebloke]

I have to say I am pleased that you seem to be trying to balance this. Sorcerer is one of the most powerful classes in the game and it is good to see someone bearing this in mind when proposing fixes.

I have seen too much garbage on the sorcerer (almost always resulting in something even more powerful by loosening constraints, such as spells known). That said, it is this tightness of spells known that make some options trap options which is what you are trying to fight. More spells knownis a crap fix for this, but maybe allowing a hybrid approach could work: x spells known but with something like 2 spells that are prepared spells from the list. Same number of options each day but a bit more flexability makes the trap spells hurt less.

Given that you are trying to avoid traps with the metamagic by reducing options, you could also trim the sorcerer list to rule out the bad there, if you wanted to be more friendly to newer players.

I think most new players know better than to take detect magic etc. So i don't see this as a huge concern.

Taking heighten at level three is something I've seen

[Spiritchaser]

First off, thanks for doing this

Sorcerers tends to polarize discussions, and there may be some pointy replies here, but the discussion is likely well worthwhile.

My concern with sorcerers are mostly addressed by what you’ve written, but I think i’d Do things a bit differently.

My concerns:

Lack of spells known. I feel that sorcerers need something like 2-5 more spells known to do what I’d want them to do. You’ve added 4, and you’ve spread them out through the levels instead of front loading them. Sounds great. You might be able to get away with less than 4 more but this is probably pretty close.

Limited spell list. Is there any good reason why sorcerers can’t have nondetection? Illusory script? Tasha’s hideous laughter... and so many others? No. I’d allow at least some of the sorcerer’s spells to come from the wizard list. Lots of ways to gate this (see eldritch knight)

Trap options: metamagic and spells known are too hard to change. There’s no need for this. I appreciate that distant and extend spell are very niche, and are often choices the player will regret, but they ARE useful. Instead of eliminating them, have a good way to swap them out if they aren’t working for you. If you want to play an immutable sorcerer who doesn’t swap things out, then great, more power to you, but that should be a choice, and whatever conceptual strength might be added to your game by requiring that of all sorcerers should not trump quality of life for everyone else. There’s no reason not to allow metamagic to be swapped out every level. As for spells? Let the player swap one spell out every long rest. Seriously how is that bad?

Limited metamagic. I’m not sure if sorcerers get enough choices. You’ve added one more at 7, seems like a good place to start. This does need playtest. Another metamagic might just prove too much.

That’s pretty much my list.

Concerns with some of your suggestions:

Additional metamagic options: I love the concept of transmuted spell. Something like that should have been there from the start. I’m not sure if the implementation is the way I’d do it though. I’d almost be more inclined to have it function when you learn the spell in the first place. Something like:

Transmuted Spell: when you possess this ability you may learn a different variant of evocation or transmutation spells. You may, upon learning a spell with a damage type of fire, cold, lightning, thunder or acid, instead learn a variant with any other one of these damage types. If a spell has multiple damage types from this list, you may change one or both types. Edit: you may only know one variant of a given spell at a time. You may not, for example, learn two versions of fireball, one with cold and the other with acid, though you could learn either one on its own.

I know this is a greater departure from how metamagic usually works, but I think it does what I’d want it to do.

As for the other options for metamagic... I wouldn’t but... I guess there’s some scope for it. I would certainly be very cautious about widened or especially doublecast... maybe some testing there?

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorcerer

Can now choose an additional metamagic at level 7.
At levels 1, 5, 10, and 17 you can select a new spell known from the sorcerer list.
That's all that's needed. Sorc isn't that bad off.

[strangebloke]

Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply, Spiritchaser.


Lack of spells known. I feel that sorcerers need something like 2-5 more spells known to do what I’d want them to do. You’ve added 4, and you’ve spread them out through the levels instead of front loading them. Sounds great. You might be able to get away with less than 4 more but this is probably pretty close.

Yeah. Being limited for spells known is the primary thing that makes sorcerer metamagic allowable. If they had a wizard's spells known they'd be terrifyingly overpowered. So I'm pretty cautious about it. But I think that, for most play, getting two more spells isn't going to break the game.

It is worth noting that most of the good sorcerer subclasses effectively grant 1-2 spells known. Draconic grants mage armor, Shadow grants darkness, Divine grants bane/bless/shield of faith. Its not nothing, but it is there.


Limited spell list. Is there any good reason why sorcerers can’t have nondetection? Illusory script? Tasha’s hideous laughter... and so many others? No. I’d allow at least some of the sorcerer’s spells to come from the wizard list. Lots of ways to gate this (see eldritch knight)

I think that spells like nondetection and illusory script are trap options for the the sorcerer.

The possessive spells, all the spells that are like "Person's adjective noun" are wizard spells, because the implication is that mordenkainen or tasha or whoever is the wizard that invented them. Its a nice conceit, and I don't think that the sorcerer is really missing out on anything substantial here.

What I would like to do is come up with a list of unique sorcerer exclusive spells. They're the only class without exclusives. Well, I mean, exclusives other than chaos bolt. This is one of the big problems with them thematically, that they don't have unique spells. Warlocks get a lot of flavor from spoopy spells like armor of agathys and hellish rebuke. Same for wizards, clerics, paladins, etc.

I'd like to make the sorcerer exclusives multipurpose spells, to fit with their mechanics.

Anyway, someone's probably already done good work there. Just need to find it.


Trap options: metamagic and spells known are too hard to change. There’s no need for this. I appreciate that distant and extend spell are very niche, and are often choices the player will regret, but they ARE useful. Instead of eliminating them, have a good way to swap them out if they aren’t working for you. If you want to play an immutable sorcerer who doesn’t swap things out, then great, more power to you, but that should be a choice, and whatever conceptual strength might be added to your game by requiring that of all sorcerers should not trump quality of life for everyone else. There’s no reason not to allow metamagic to be swapped out every level. As for spells? Let the player swap one spell out every long rest. Seriously how is that bad?

Disagree strongly.

Switching out metamagic is a terrible idea.

Like lets say jimmy builds a sorcerer. He fills it up with AOE blasty spells and takes widen and empower and then later takes careful. Then, he gets bored blasting. He swaps out his choices for heighten, twin, and Resilient.

Now he's fighting his spells list. He didn't pick the single target debuffs and buffs. He can retrain 1 spell a level, but that's slow as balls.

It potentially lets you screw over your character partway through their career.


Limited metamagic. I’m not sure if sorcerers get enough choices. You’ve added one more at 7, seems like a good place to start. This does need playtest. Another metamagic might just prove too much.

I think 1 more is where I'll stop. Three is really enough to get a core concept off the ground, and the fourth and fifth are almost too much.

There's limited options, so I don't want to turn this into a situation where "eventually you'll get them all." It really makes that 17th level suck if you've already gotten all the good metamagics. This is somewhat true already, I don't want to make it worse.


Transmuted Spell: when you possess this ability you may learn a different variant of evocation or transmutation spells. You may, upon learning a spell with a damage type of fire, cold, lightning, thunder or acid, instead learn a variant with any other one of these damage types. If a spell has multiple damage types from this list, you may change one or both types.

I know this is a greater departure from how metamagic usually works, but I think it does what I’d want it to do.

As for the other options for metamagic... I wouldn’t but... I guess there’s some scope for it. I would certainly be very cautious about widened or especially doublecast... maybe some testing there?

I don't want to make a metamagic option that lets you fundamentally alter your spell list. Metamagic is applied to active spells and is optional and requires resource expenditure. Thems the rules.

I think Theorycrafting is just as important as playtesting. In playtesting, how effective people are at breaking a game is the result of their theorycrafting. What's a spell combo that would make doublecast really good? The best I came up with is just a crazy high burst. Double disintegrates or something. What's a spell that would work great with widen? So far the most overpowered contender is 'create bonfire.'

[strangebloke]

That's all that's needed. Sorc isn't that bad off.

In power? I agree.

But I think there's another sense in which a class can be strong and still be badly designed. The sorcerer falls into this category for me. If you set out to build a fighter, you can't really screw it up that bad so long as you do generally intuitive things. A dexterity based fighter with two weapon fighting isn't nearly as good as a S&B fighter or a GWF fighter... but he's totally fine.

A sorcerer that grabs heighten and quicken at level three, and a whole bunch of lightning spells 'cause he's a storm sorcerer is going to be really bad. Like, 5-6 HP a level, AC 12, can't use his base class features at all....

You see my point?

[Spiritchaser]

The first thing I’d widen would be spirit guardians on a DS sorcerer. I’m sure there are other good options as well, but that one leaps off the page at me (probably a sorcadin for this role)

As for double cast, not only does it allow severe burst damage, which is a big deal, but it also causes issues with action economy and counterspell options in a mage duel. You can basically get two chances to counterspell something, or alternatively cast one more spell than your foe could deal with

I suspect that with enough testing and careful wording this could be managed.

[strangebloke]

The first thing I’d widen would be spirit guardians on a DS sorcerer. I’m sure there are other good options as well, but that one leaps off the page at me (probably a sorcadin for this role)

As for double cast, not only does it allow severe burst damage, which is a big deal, but it also causes issues with action economy and counterspell options in a mage duel. You can basically get two chances to counterspell something, or alternatively cast one more spell than your foe could deal with

I suspect that with enough testing and careful wording this could be managed.

Oh yeah, widen spirit guardians is crazy good. Should have been obvious. But its a level higher, so you're trading 1d8 damage for 3x the area... yeah, okay, still overpowered. Changing Widen to just be 5 feet.

I'm not really worried about mage duels and counter spell. A sorcerer overwhelming a wizard in blasting match is thematically fine, IMO.

Doesn't let you double counterspell though.

[KorvinStarmast]

In power? I agree.

A sorcerer that grabs heighten and quicken at level three, and a whole bunch of lightning spells 'cause he's a storm sorcerer is going to be really bad. Like, 5-6 HP a level, AC 12, can't use his base class features at all....

You see my point? I do, but I also learned the hard way that sorcerer is a "high skill quotient" PC to run in this edition of the game. Because of spell limits and cantrip limits (I think sorcies should have more cantrips as they go up in level also, I don't like the cap) the choice of spells requires a lot of research out of game to figure out. Opportunity cost is all over the Sorcerer.
What I think the Sorcerer's Cantrips Known progression ought to be, since the sorcerer has magic just coursing through their veins ... 4,4,4,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,7,7,7,8,8

[Nhorianscum]

The changes are an overall buff to the class. I'm not really sold on any need to buff sorc in this manner though.

As is Sorc is borderline nutso in the 7-11 stretch of the game where they're spamming harder than warlocks with action economy and save DC's that wizards would kill to have, blast damage that actually works and competes with GWM/SS single target, and a competitive spells known.

The class really needs some love in the 1-5 range, and to a much lesser extent the 14-16 range where it's just plain awful.

As is the changes just buff sorc in it's sweet spot.

[strangebloke]

I do, but I also learned the hard way that sorcerer is a "high skill quotient" PC to run in this edition of the game. Because of spell limits and cantrip limits (I think sorcies should have more cantrips as they go up in level also, I don't like the cap) the choice of spells requires a lot of research out of game to figure out. Opportunity cost is all over the Sorcerer.
What I think the Sorcerer's Cantrips Known progression ought to be, since the sorcerer has magic just coursing through their veins ... 4,4,4,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,7,7,7,8,8

Just knowing a lot of cantrips doesn't really feel.... sorceresque to me. They're not efficient and flexible, they're explosive and powerful.

The warlock is the cantrip master.

The changes are an overall buff to the class. I'm not really sold on any need to buff sorc in this manner though.

As is Sorc is borderline nutso in the 7-11 stretch of the game where they're spamming harder than warlocks with action economy and save DC's that wizards would kill to have, blast damage that actually works and competes with GWM/SS single target, and a competitive spells known.

The class really needs some love in the 1-5 range, and to a much lesser extent the 14-16 range where it's just plain awful.

As is the changes just buff sorc in it's sweet spot.

I disagree.

The first extra spell at level 1 is a boost. Along with a spell from your subclass, like bless, you'll effectively be rocking four spells at level one, a fifth of the number of spells you'll know at campaign end.

Then, at level three you get options for metamagic that really round you out. A blaster will see something like widen as a really sweet trick. If you've been getting by with create bonfire or something similar... well say hello to summon great bonfire.

I'm really confused by your representation of levels 7-11. While this is the sweet spot, sorcerers are hardly 'spamming harder than warlocks with action economy and save DC's that wizards would kill to have, blast damage that actually works and competes with GWM/SS single target, and a competitive spells known..'

...How? With Quicken? And they have great spell DCs so they took Heighten as well? At level 3? And you know, 2 quickened spells and 1 heightened spell is like all you can do at level seven, so unless you're doing a five-minute adventuring day. Their blast damage only competes with GWM/SS if they're dropping their highest level spells and empowering them and they're doing so with a dragon sorcerer buff. They do have like 8-9 spells known at level 7, but that's...

Like seriously, that's still not competitive at all. That's like 1.6 spells per level of spell they can cast. And 2-3 of those are going to be things like mage armor and other fundamentals.

[Vogie]

I like the ability to choose another metamagic at level 7... although if you were going to push back heightened, I don't know why you'd choose 10 over 7.

I'd like to see a super-quicken, where you can launch spells as a reaction, giving a warcaster-esque effect, but for a huge cost.

I think we have much better options now than "add more spells known" or "more spell slots". That is a Wizard-inspired solution (Arcane Recovery, ritual casting and spellbook), rather than a Sorcerer-leaning solution (innate power).

I would 100% rather see a solution with things like Invocations, which allow Warlocks to use utility spells without connection to spell slot cost. We also see alternative costs in other classes, like the ability for Paladins and Tranquility Monks to heal without tapping into spell slots. Sorcerers themselves have a similar ability to use sorcery points for various effects. If you really want to fix sorcerers, use mechanics such as those Sorcerer-leaning mechanics.

Maybe things like Mage Armor, identify and Detect Magic could be cast with a single sorcery point, instead of using a first level spell slot (which costs 2 sorc points).
Perhaps give sorcerers a way to store Sorcery points or utility spells in items, like the Mementos from GtSE or the Infused Spells from one of the Artificers, giving a Ring of Spell Storing or Rod of Pact Keeper effect, but with what were previously mundane objects.
As the Sorcerer can also use their points to unlock higher-level spell slots then they have available, maybe also give them the ability to "downshift" 1st level spells into cantrips. Shift a single casting of a single 1st-level spell to a cantrip with 1 sorc point, or use 3-4 sorc points to turn a 1st level spell into a cantrip for the rest of the day?
Perhaps let them tie certain utility spells together - maybe tied to spell schools? Maybe Mage Armor is instantly cast on you when you cast Shield, your Detect Magic spells also give part of an Identify effect simultaneously, or the ability to use Silent Images as improvised weapons (like a versatile Shadow Blade, except you can knock someone down with an imaginary boulder or gain cover behind an illusory upended table).
Since the Origin of the Sorcerer's power is innate, maybe the ability to transform hit die into sorc points, or utility effects could work.

You could also tie the various fixes to certain subclasses. Wild Sorcerers could refresh utility effects, or sorcery points, every time they roll 1s, while a shadow sorcerer could refresh them while resting in certain levels of darkness, and storm sorcerers refresh them in bad weather.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just knowing a lot of cantrips doesn't really feel.... sorceresque to me. They're not efficient and flexible, they're explosive and powerful. They are already powerful. The cantrip expansion to me (and the extra Meta at 7 you suggested, and a few more spells) opens up flexibility/choices/options. (And even a few utility cantrips ...)

[Nhorianscum]

Just knowing a lot of cantrips doesn't really feel.... sorceresque to me. They're not efficient and flexible, they're explosive and powerful.

The warlock is the cantrip master.


I disagree.

The first extra spell at level 1 is a boost. Along with a spell from your subclass, like bless, you'll effectively be rocking four spells at level one, a fifth of the number of spells you'll know at campaign end.

Then, at level three you get options for metamagic that really round you out. A blaster will see something like widen as a really sweet trick. If you've been getting by with create bonfire or something similar... well say hello to summon great bonfire.

I'm really confused by your representation of levels 7-11. While this is the sweet spot, sorcerers are hardly 'spamming harder than warlocks with action economy and save DC's that wizards would kill to have, blast damage that actually works and competes with GWM/SS single target, and a competitive spells known..'

...How? With Quicken? And they have great spell DCs so they took Heighten as well? At level 3? And you know, 2 quickened spells and 1 heightened spell is like all you can do at level seven, so unless you're doing a five-minute adventuring day. Their blast damage only competes with GWM/SS if they're dropping their highest level spells and empowering them and they're doing so with a dragon sorcerer buff. They do have like 8-9 spells known at level 7, but that's...

Like seriously, that's still not competitive at all. That's like 1.6 spells per level of spell they can cast. And 2-3 of those are going to be things like mage armor and other fundamentals.

Yes. Sorc functions best when it's speced to burn everything on a handful of tricks. I enjoy this aspect of the class.

My qupted post accounts for known strong Sorc multi's to boost spells known/AC/Utility and our main tricks, single class Sorc is barely playable without Draconic/stone.

My issue with your proposed fix is it does nothing to solve the "welp, hit level 2, time to dip! $_$ issue that Sorc has and just serves to buff the known strong multi's. The class just has a booty garbage chassis and adding spells known + more metamagic does nothing to make that better.

My use of Sorc has been exactly what you've described, 1-2 huge spells per fight cast to max or above max level and metamagic boosted. I've got a sledgehammer and I'm swinging it like a sledgehammer. It's fun and effective.

[Daphne]

Honestly, I'm still not sold on sorcerers having metamagic in the first place. It always felt much more like a wizard ability to me and time has yet to change that.

Personally, I'd like to see metamagic dropped altogether and instead have them greatly expand the sorcerer subclasses.

It seems like there should be huge opportunities for flavourful and interesting powers, yet so much design space is taken up with Metamagic that the subclasses only provide a few abilities, which tend towards being quite dull.

Given that your subclass is supposed to be the source from which all your powers are drawn, I find it very depressing that it has so little impact on your progression. e.g. after lv6 you have to wait a further 8 levels before your subclass even comes up again.

I agree 100% with this. I think there's a mismatch between flavor and mechanics.

I wanted to like the class but I just can't.

[strangebloke]

They are already powerful. The cantrip expansion to me (and the extra Meta at 7 you suggested, and a few more spells) opens up flexibility/choices/options. (And even a few utility cantrips ...)

The problem I have here is that cantrips become less cool the more you have.

Like, you grab minor illusion and firebolt and prestidigitation... Then mold earth, control flames, dancing lights...

Pretty soon it gets just kind of boring. You get a lot of buttons, but many of them aren't exciting and might be unthematic for your character.

Maybe add some sorcerer cantrips that are really fun? Though that'd exacerbate the old multiclassing problem.


Yes. Sorc functions best when it's speced to burn everything on a handful of tricks. I enjoy this aspect of the class.

My qupted post accounts for known strong Sorc multi's to boost spells known/AC/Utility and our main tricks, single class Sorc is barely playable without Draconic/stone.

My issue with your proposed fix is it does nothing to solve the "welp, hit level 2, time to dip! $_$ issue that Sorc has and just serves to buff the known strong multi's. The class just has a booty garbage chassis and adding spells known + more metamagic does nothing to make that better.

My use of Sorc has been exactly what you've described, 1-2 huge spells per fight cast to max or above max level and metamagic boosted. I've got a sledgehammer and I'm swinging it like a sledgehammer. It's fun and effective.
Multiclassing generally comes after level three, in my experience, and is generally after Quicken or heighten. There's the specific problem of the coffee lock, but imo you can't really get around that.


Perhaps quicken should be level locked to seven or higher?

If your opinion is that the low levels are so bad, why are there so many multiclassing.

I agree 100% with this. I think there's a mismatch between flavor and mechanics.

I wanted to like the class but I just can't.

That's more on the order of a complete rebuild of the class though. Kryx did just such a thing if you want that. This is a patch. I'm trying to make small changes.

IMO, you could probably add in more subclass features at 10th level. If 2 metamagic options and 2nd level spells wasn't overpowered at level 3, it shouldn't be overpowered at level 10. Or level 11 for that matter.

But doing so means a lot of changes to match up with all the subclasses. That's not my goal here.

[Dr. Cliché]

That's more on the order of a complete rebuild of the class though. Kryx did just such a thing if you want that.

Do you have a link to that?



But doing so means a lot of changes to match up with all the subclasses. That's not my goal here.

That's fair.

[Nhorianscum]

If your opinion is that the low levels are so bad, why are there so many multiclassing.

While Sorc has an awful chassis, it also has an overclocked nitro fueled engine. Lots of classes want to borrow that, and Sorc wants to borrow a chassis.

For a playable single class only patch I've just moved one of the two metamagic picks at 3 to 2nd level and given the class built in light armor.

[strangebloke]

While Sorc has an awful chassis, it also has an overclocked nitro fueled engine. Lots of classes want to borrow that, and Sorc wants to borrow a chassis.

For a playable single class only patch I've just moved one of the two metamagic picks at 3 to 2nd level and given the class built in light armor.

I feel the need to note that draconic sorcerer has a better chassis than every non cleric caster.

But yeah, I think that sorcerers low level weakness is pretty well fixed just by giving them one extra spell early on. What I'm more worried about is the high levels.

@dr. Cliche, I don't have the link, sorry.

[Spiritchaser]

I still feel that the flexibility to play with what works is critical.

Letting sorcerers change out a spell every long rest, and change out metamagic every level would go a very long way to managing the trap options.

Again, I’d be inclined to allow some wizard spells, and I do appreciate that some would be traps for most builds but if you can fix the problem, is it really a big deal?

[Vogie]

I still feel that the flexibility to play with what works is critical.

Letting sorcerers change out a spell every long rest, and change out metamagic every level would go a very long way to managing the trap options.

Again, I’d be inclined to allow some wizard spells, and I do appreciate that some would be traps for most builds but if you can fix the problem, is it really a big deal?

I don't know about wizard spells - most of them are not available were likely chosen for a reason. Not giving the class that can Twin Spells access to Foresight, for example.

[strangebloke]

I still feel that the flexibility to play with what works is critical.

Letting sorcerers change out a spell every long rest, and change out metamagic every level would go a very long way to managing the trap options.

Again, I’d be inclined to allow some wizard spells, and I do appreciate that some would be traps for most builds but if you can fix the problem, is it really a big deal?
Rangers, bards, warlocks and sorcerers all have to retrain their spells slowly, so I don't see this as an option.

Changing out a spell every long rest is a silly way of doing things. Give a sorcerer a week of downtime and he changes out his whole list? That's ridiculous! Like, last week he was fireball guy, and now he's buff focused.

Hard no from me, dog.

What I tried to do here was offer strong metamagic that work pretty clearly. A blaster with careful, widen, and empower won't go too far wrong.

I don't know about wizard spells - most of them are not available were likely chosen for a reason. Not giving the class that can Twin Spells access to Foresight, for example.

If the wizard can do the same thing with a simulacrum, why not?

Yeah yeah I know that simulacrums are expensive. Still, it's worth bringing up that if you're comparing them to the wizard, you need to remember that wizards have crazy advantages.

I don't want to see them get wizard spells. I want sorcerer exclusives.

[KOLE]

I don't want to see them get wizard spells. I want sorcerer exclusives.

That keeps coming up in this thread, I don't quite understand.

Why are exclusive spells important?
What sort of spells could a sorcerer know that other classes don't? I love Chaos Bolt, and I appreciate that it fits really well with a Wild Mage, but otherwise don't see it needing to be exclusive.
What role would these spells fill? Pure blasting?
Are there Sorcerer exclusive spells from previous editions that could use a dusting off?

[Dr. Cliché]

What sort of spells could a sorcerer know that other classes don't? I love Chaos Bolt, and I appreciate that it fits really well with a Wild Mage, but otherwise don't see it needing to be exclusive.

I could see spells being exclusive to a particular heritage. e.g. a dragon-themed spell based on the Draconic sorcerer's bloodline.

[Vogie]

That keeps coming up in this thread, I don't quite understand.

Why are exclusive spells important?
What sort of spells could a sorcerer know that other classes don't? I love Chaos Bolt, and I appreciate that it fits really well with a Wild Mage, but otherwise don't see it needing to be exclusive.
What role would these spells fill? Pure blasting?
Are there Sorcerer exclusive spells from previous editions that could use a dusting off?

I would expect spells that truly shine if metamagic is assigned to them.

Chaos bolt could be used by any blaster, sure. However, Sorcerers can use Empowered Metamagic to reroll the d8s, increasing the probability it'll bounce. Witch bolt is basically awful due to the short range, but becomes a decent spell when Distant Metamagic is applied to it, increasing the range to 60 ft (still not great, but decent).

More things in that same vein, more like the former than the latter.

Alternatively, more specific sorcerer-leaning spells - those that were written in such a way that they could scale in one way with slots as normal, but use sorc points to scale in a different direction, in the description of the spell.

[Spiritchaser]

Rangers, bards, warlocks and sorcerers all have to retrain their spells slowly, so I don't see this as an option.

Rangers bards and warlock’s do not need to appreciate and plan for the interaction between their metamagic choices and their spell choices.

I really don’t see the problem with the switch. The primary goal here is to allow experimentation and learning about your character to see what works, to allow a new player to recover from a mistake, or any player to recover from a build that does not in any way mesh with a new team.

I do appreciate the conceptual space that sorcerers occupy, and that this suggests less flexibility in spell changes.

Each and every player would be more than welcome to Play that way.

But when weighing the relative value of those two options, a static build competing against a forgiving one, I can say that I strictly value the improvement in player experience that a flexible build grants over the improvement in player experience and conceptual value that comes from imposing that rigidity on another player. It’s not even close.

Again, one is of course, always free to impose those conditions on oneself.

[strangebloke]

That keeps coming up in this thread, I don't quite understand.

Why are exclusive spells important?
What sort of spells could a sorcerer know that other classes don't? I love Chaos Bolt, and I appreciate that it fits really well with a Wild Mage, but otherwise don't see it needing to be exclusive.
What role would these spells fill? Pure blasting?
Are there Sorcerer exclusive spells from previous editions that could use a dusting off?

You should ask yourself what the exclusives for all the other classes do.

The exclusive spells offer more flavor and tend to work better mechanically with the class they are associated with. Historically, all sorcerers were draconic, so they had "wings of flurry" and "wings of cover." Those spells are fun but if individual subclasses are going to get exclusives, we may just as well give them class features.

For sorcerer what I'd do would be powerful spells with extreme drawbacks. Like a super aoe centered on self with friendly fire enabled. Better get careful spell! Or a really juiced up version of inflict wounds. Dangerous to use, unless you have distant metamagic.

The idea would be that the sorcerer can put out tons of power... But doesn't have the finesse of the studied casters... But can also improvise better with what magic they do know.